+ What if the flashbacks aren't in "real" space? [Archive]

elric

01-20-05, 02:54 PM

Interesting thought worth pondering:

What if all the major characters are in a linked virtual reality environment for the purpose of curing their psychological problems (pseudo-science explanation)? And, what if all the flashbacks are actually the participants' memories of what actually happened - not what did happen in the real world? And, what if Walt was the first to become "half-awakened" and is able to unconsciously control the environment as a result.

Why this works:

1) All the characters are troubled in some way and have a psychological issue to overcome. Their conditions are extremely obvious and profound, and if there had been a real crash, the chances of everyone having psychological problems come really really close to zero.

2) The island could be the "doctor's" way of getting everyone to share a common crisis and confront their problems. Some psycologists believe that people that had problems at one time but have recovered can best help other people with problems (group therapy). And, sometimes crisis situations can help put one's issues in perspective (a Jesus moment) and more importantly help one overcome historical fears/problems.

3) Walt showed signs of influencing the environment in his (his dad's) "flashback". I don't think that the writers are going down a "paranormal" route, so it would be impossible for Walt to cause "scary things to happen" or manifest a specific type of bird or cause his mother to develop a sudden blood condition unless it wasn't "real".

4) Others are showing signs of "influence" on the island. Walt, being the first to manifest, has shown the most influence (backgamon game, polar bear, knife throw, etc), but others are starting to manifest as the days progress. Locke became the person he always wanted to be almost instantly, Jack manifested his dad, Sayid had all sorts of things happen, etc.

5) The "Doctor" might be influencing the environment at strategic times (the monster, abduction, etc) to help his patients make progress. He might have pulled Claire because she was about to have her baby which would cause too many issues with everyone else's progress (they would overprotect and spend too much time with the baby).

Just a few thoughts worth connecting....

I'd love if others could expand on this and explain other aspects of the show (the mysterious hatch, the watches all stopping, the pilot, etc).

Take the challenge and see where this goes! :hat

kadeskiss

01-20-05, 04:20 PM

what if all the flashbacks are actually the participants' memories of what actually happened - not what did happen in the real world? And, what if Walt was the first to become "half-awakened" and is able to unconsciously control the environment as a result.

I can see that happening...but than again, it will be The Matrix

..but I think you might have something about the flashback, we do not know which one are real. They can be from there point of view, and not what actually happen....likes Micheal's view of how he got custody of Walt. From Micheal point of view, Brian didn't want Walt, because he was too weird, yet walt stated that he liked his other dad. From walt point of view, he go along find with his step dad. I wonder who's point of view was real? in Jack flashback, his father was a alcoholic., who lost his licence, because he was drinking on the job...but yet Jack's father point out that Jack was there at the hospital, and yet they called him ( Jack's dad) to preform the surgery. It was Jack who brought out a small bottle of alcohol, after he
awaken from the crash....so, just because we are seeing there flashback, does not nessarcy mean that it true, it just their perspective of what happen. i find it hard to believe that Walt step father would raise him for 10 years, and give him up, right after his mom died. I also find it hard to believe that jack's father would be drinking on the job, and the Jack would be only one who would catch him.

drabauer

01-20-05, 04:40 PM

Elric, this exact theory was proposed last week and has received extensive commentary. Please join the party at the following thread:

The island is a virtual reality psych experimental treatment (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=800.topic)

Master Lost Theories & Speculation Index (http://www.swedishpoet.com/lostindex.html)

elric

01-20-05, 05:09 PM

Thanks for the reference - I'll read the thread more carefully.

But, I still would love comments on the flashbacks not being real, but rather stories told through the lenses of the main characters while in VR space. This will allow for multiple perspectives to be shown as characters start to meet each other and have "shared" situations. Would be nice to see the "Shannon and Boone" story through Shannon's eyes. Would also like to see the "Walt and Michael" story through Walt's eyes.

LoStMyMiNd

01-20-05, 05:39 PM

Here's anothner spin on this idea of flashbacks not being real.

What if Walt is actually Michael as a child?

Abraxas

01-20-05, 05:58 PM

A neat idea, but I'd rather have a supernatural Walt (or Vincent, as I find this idea more interesting) than "it-was-just-sort-of-a-dream-gotcha-we-are-clever" twist.

drabauer

01-20-05, 06:10 PM

"But, I still would love comments on the flashbacks not being real, but rather stories told through the lenses of the main characters while in VR space. This will allow for multiple perspectives to be shown as characters start to meet each other and have "shared" situations. Would be nice to see the "Shannon and Boone" story through Shannon's eyes. Would also like to see the "Walt and Michael" story through Walt's eyes."

I like this Rashoman idea, but I don't see the necessity for a VR scenario. If we merely accept that what is "special" to one character may be ordinary from the perspective of another, we have just as interesting of a plot.

I do think the VR idea explains a lot, but I doubt Abrams and Lindelof would go where Chris Carter so disastrously tread (Harsh Realm).

cccourt

01-20-05, 06:18 PM

elric: Please don't feed the writers. This is good stuff...but do we really want this as an answer?

ccc

NeillT006

01-20-05, 07:09 PM

Elric:

I still like the approach very much.

The idea of the flashbacks being suspect as mere objective accounts of history is one that I have also thought is worth some consideration.

Last night's episode has some dialog that I thought was significant to the theory (assuming that you accept the idea that dialog has more importance than as filler before the next monster chase).

Walt and Locke are talking about picturing the task giving Walt trouble in his mind's eye.

Walt hits the bullseye and says something like "It was almost like it was real."

Locke says "Who's to say that it isn't?"

Well, geezo, isn't that what you and I are talking about, the idea that an experience that has only an internal reality can in fact have an impact upon and affect external reality?

I'm liking this theory more and more.

Keep up the good work.

Neill

elric

01-21-05, 06:18 PM

What if all the "madness" that occurred with the "others" was explained in the following way:

1) It was another group of people with psychological problems being treated using the "Island" cure.

2) Strong personalities (Locke) or innocent personalities (children) general develop influence skills over the "Island" environment first - hence they become critical in the success or failure of the "Island" cure. The "guide" effects the outcome drastically.

3) What if the last time the "Island" was used (with the French woman and the Others), the "guide" turned out to be a child with evil intentions? Imagine how much craziness could be created through mental manipulation of one's environment. Then imagine this being done by one of evil intent. Craziness / cult like behaviors would be the natural outcome.

4) Another possibility would be that more than one "guide" emerged and the "doctors" didn't deal with the situation quickly enough. A major battle between good and evil could have occurred as a result.

Just a few more thoughts.

Expand please.

drabauer

01-21-05, 11:09 PM

OK elric, this sounds plausible. One or more of Danielle's expedition has his/her natural abilities enhanced by the island, but uses them for ill (ala the very first Star Trek, excluding the pilot). The sickness=meglomania, or one person making the others ill. Alex was taken from Danielle as was Claire's child, and now Alex has been unable--or even perpetrated--what happened. Thus they must offer a loving and positive environment to both Walt and Claire's baby--wherever it is, and Locke is trying to channel the demons of the weaker adults (Charlie and Boone's addictions and ineffectual attempts to help are turned around), so that when and if they "feel the power," they will understand it and be ready to emotionally deal with it.

LoStMyMiNd

01-22-05, 02:13 AM

Also...what if the Marshall was the one that was supposed to be in handcuffs, got the better of Kate and put them on her. What if Kate was an undercover cop in the flashback. What if that whole relationship was an illusion?

NeillT006

01-22-05, 11:18 AM

bump

JacksGirlfriend

01-22-05, 05:40 PM

I agree the flashbacks are tainted by the emotional stability and egocentricities of the teller, but I still consider them the real background of these characters. The flashbacks have to be real because these characters have to have a history we can rely on. Whether or not the perception is skewed shouldn't make a difference in the structure of the events. I think these things happened. How they happened and why they happened are still unanswered questions and probably won't be resolved for some time. Until then I believe in the structure of the events because I have to believe in something and it's all I've got.

JacksGirl

drabauer

01-22-05, 06:37 PM

I agree with jacksgirl. Anything less would simply prove too confusing and untenable for the long term. If an when we see a "reversal," it would have to be foreshadowed and well-handled to set it apart from the rest.

Lost Master Theories Index (http://www.swedishpoet.com/lostindex.html)

NeillT006

01-22-05, 07:24 PM

Until then I believe in the structure of the events because I have to believe in something and it's all I've got.

JG:

So I take it you like photographs rather than Gauguin?

N.

JacksGirlfriend

01-22-05, 07:51 PM

No, Neill, I happen to love Gaughin and a great many other painters as well. I love the creativity and the illusion of perfection, not to mention the flashes of neurotic genius on the canvas. Photographs are often harsh, too rooted in the real world and show us only one moment that remains unchanging forever. I can't live in one moment and refuse to accept that I have to. I want more and art can give me that. A photograph cannot.

Art allows us to dream and hope and reach a true understanding of ourselves. I'm still working on my own understanding. It is a constant quest which is probably why I think too much. Maybe I need to stare at Gaughin a little longer. Or maybe Monet - I always liked his work.

In the meantime, I'm accepting the backstories.

JacksGirl

elric

01-24-05, 12:45 PM

Even though I started the discussion around this "issue", I have to admit that I believe that the backstories are real. There might be facts here and there that will be shown in a different way when experienced through the eyes of another character, but I do believe the main stories are "real".

What will be interesting is if/when the characters start to meet in their backstories (already foreshadowed by the police station scene). This will tell quite a bit about whether the differences in perspective are material to the story or not.

JacksGirlfriend

01-25-05, 01:06 AM

What will be interesting is if/when the characters start to meet in their backstories (already foreshadowed by the police station scene). This will tell quite a bit about whether the differences in perspective are material to the story or not.

I think there have to be differences in perspective. We see the world through our own eyes and our own experiences. Because I believe most of these people have had quite a bit of trouble in their lives, their perceptions will probably be tinged by emotion and possible mental illness. I don't think we can count on the motives and analyses portrayed as being totally accurate. That doesn't negate the actual action that occurred but it will taint the character's memories of the event. Seeing another perception might give us a clearer picture.

JacksGirl

elric

01-27-05, 05:10 PM

Does anyone know when Walt's backstory is going to be told? I bet that this could reveal a lot about the past and the different characters' perspectives...

elric

02-01-05, 01:50 PM

I don't know what is coming and when, but I'd love to know if anyone has line of site to the next 4-5 episodes. If any of them could tell an already told story from a different perspective, it would be EXTREMELY informative.

Anyone??? :smokin

jcrew1179

02-14-05, 06:39 PM

Has anyone seen Rashoman?

They should make every episode like that.

LoStMyMiNd

02-15-05, 07:18 AM

Just a thought....its true that everyone perceives situations differently than everyone else. Therefore, it may be possible that what our character is flashing back on would be a different story if someone else were remembering it from their perspective.

jaystao

02-15-05, 10:55 AM

This sort of matrix style meets identity has some interesting points. However does it mean that some of the characters are imanginary, placed in the story to guide or challenge others and if so maybe some of the back stories are made up. What I find interesting is that as the plane tears apart the oxygen masks all come out and Jack talks about blacking out soon after he puts his one on. No one actually seems to remember what happened or witnessed the entire crash. Kate says that she remembers more then Jack but maybe because she was unable to put her oxygen mask on because of the hand cuffs. Is it possible that she was able to stay concious longer because of this? Why should this be the case? When people are put to sleep before surgery they are gassed in the same way. Maybe there was something in the oxygen masks causing them to black out? Once again my lateness in becoming affiliated with LOST is showing through and I'm not up to scratch with some of the conpiracy theories, but this could tie in with your idea of the doctor being 'in' and the oxygen masks were part of the 'theorapy' procedure as perhaps are other portents on the island.

Not quite sure if I like this take on it as it reads more as a thriller and I'd like to see LOST as a mystery/adventure type series.

Chance Gardener

02-15-05, 11:19 AM

Deleted to promote harmony.

I like to watch

JacksGirlfriend

02-15-05, 01:48 PM

I think the island is real. They are experiencing it 'live' but it may not necessarily be real 'here' as it were.

No one likes a tease, Chance. Tell us what you think. Are you buying into a triangle theory? And if so - start your own thread cause I'd like to see what you have to say.

Chance Gardener

02-15-05, 03:45 PM

Deleted to promote harmony.

I like to watch

JacksGirlfriend

02-15-05, 08:53 PM

Well that's kind of what I've been thinking for awhile now. Only I think the entire triangle might migrate somehow. So I'm very curious to hear what you think. (And I've read your disconnect theory - I like it.)

elric

02-25-05, 08:09 PM

Hurley isn't losing weight...

Walt keeps up his luck in backgammon....

Locke can walk and do things that he probably never did before in his life (but instead academically learned about them)

Polar bears living on the island...

Ethan appearing out of nowhere and breaking every friggin bone in someone's body in an instant....

HMMMMMMM

azteclady

03-02-05, 11:09 AM

Bumping to comment and to show people that newbies who actually bring something worth reading to the boards are treated with respect.

Hurley not losing weight: here we have to make allowances for reality outside of the needs of the show. Hurley actually told Charlie that he's 'down one notch in his belt' while to us the audience it seems as if he has actually gained some weight since the show started.

Ethan appearing out of nowhere and breaking every friggin bone in someone's body in an instant....: we the audience don't know how long it took Ethan to break Scott/Steve's bones. For all we are shown, Ethan could have grabbed Scott/Steve several hours before the body was discovered, then break his neck, then spend an hour or so breaking his bones - Ethan could have even used rocks, branches, whatever to smash the bones. Remember first that we are not shown the injuries, only told his bones were broken, and second that Jack admits to being a surgeon not a coroner/medical examiner - he's doing his best, but we should allow for a wide margin on error.

Beto
Got a question/problem/complaint? Read the entire Welcome (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm31) forum first, then PM me

NeillT006

03-02-05, 01:27 PM

Bumping to comment and to show people that newbies who actually bring something worth reading to the boards are treated with respect.

Az: I think I will link the Matrix thread to this one since they are connected in many ways.

Freud Meets The Matrix (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=800.topic)

(That, and I can't seem to keep the damn thing from diving to the inner pages of the board.)

CHANCE: I am intrigued by the hairbrush thing. I forget if I have posted this somewhere else, or merely talked about it in chat, but if there is some sloppy VR modeling going on, and the "treatment" centers around one person, who is the most likely to have no need for a hairbrush? I know. Pretty tenuous stuff. But the demon is in the details, eh?

One other thing, regarding every bone in Scott/Steve's body being broken. Unfortunately, I have been contaminated by a possible spoiler I read somewhere. But it could be a tie-in.

So ---

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

Far enough?
Maybe some more.

I read somewhere that there was a prop call for a large mechanical snake.

Huge constrictor?

End spoiler alert.

You may now return to your regular speculations.

Neill

azteclady

03-02-05, 02:04 PM

People: learn from Neill!!! provides links and great spoiler warnings

Beto
still chuckling

Chance Gardener

03-02-05, 02:30 PM

Deleted to promote harmony.

I like to watch

Cassis1

03-02-05, 08:54 PM

The question of whether the flashbacks are reliable was answered last week, when we got Jin's side of Sun's story. It matched in every incident they shared--specifically the bloody bathroom scene--except that we got more information in the second ep. The only possible sticking point is the dog and its age (in Sun's ep it looked as if there was a long gap allowing the pup to grow up, while in Jin's time seemed more condensed).

We also saw a Walt POV flashback in Michael's eppy, indicating that the flashbacks aren't supposed to be directly translated from the characters' brains to the screen.

I think that the flashbacks are dependable.

elric

03-31-05, 11:47 AM

I guess I'm now firmly in the camp that the flashbacks are real representations of the characters' pasts. But, the VR angle is still wide open given how the "island" seems to be manipulating folks through direct actions (Locke's loss of mobility) and indirect actions (Locke's dream).

I think it's worth speculating what other rational and explainable methods (e.g. - non-paranormal) there would be for messages to be sent via a dream. I can't think of one off the top of my head, so the VR angle seems interesting at this point.

NeillT006

06-17-05, 10:00 AM

bump

drabauer

06-17-05, 05:53 PM

Oh come one Neill, you can't tell me that you yourself have nothing to say about all these threads you're bumping? ;)

NeillT006

06-17-05, 08:44 PM

Oh come one Neill, you can't tell me that you yourself have nothing to say about all these threads you're bumping?

I was reorganizing the board to suit myself. I was unhappy that so many threads I like were hiding way down in the pile.

N.

elric

08-01-05, 03:31 PM

I know this goes beyond the initial premise (flashbacks), but bear with me for a moment.

If the flappy black crap is important, how would it be explained in "real" space? I guess the nanobot theory would have some possibilities, but other than that, I wonder what could scientifically explain it.

But, in a more virtual space, "agents" could take on any form and have a direct influence on the events happening. Every time the "controllers" would reach into the happenings on the island, the artifact that did their wills could be the flappy black crap.

Thoughts?

Elric

NeillT006

03-17-06, 10:20 PM

Man, speaking of flashbacks.

Lace, I was researching some old threads and have realized I may have played a role in the unreliable flashback storm.

Hmm.

Oh well.

You are doing fine on your own.

Carry on.

N.

Badger

03-18-06, 06:34 AM

Did we see Ethan kill anyone? No. Did he admit to killing anyone? No. Yet some people post that he "killed" Steve. That is an assumption, speculation, wild guess, hunch or belief. Please, do not state things as fact when it is not yet fact.

Secondly, this topic has been beaten to death. I am referring to the "unreliable narrator" thread which has since been locked. I am of the belief that what we see in the flashbacks is as it happened, as do JacksGirlfriend and Drabauer. If they are not, then everything we "know" is in question as the events may or may not have even happened or be true, which makes no sense as I have said repeatedly.

In: All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues:

"If you do not stop following me, I will kill one of them. [he pushes on Jack's chest with his foot] Do you understand?"

"No more warnings."

A threat. Possibly a credible threat, but not an admission of guilt.

In: Homecoming:

[Ethan grabs Charlie by the neck and lifts him up against a tree.]

"You bring her here. If you don't, I'm going to kill one of them. And then if you don't bring her back before sundown tomorrow I'll kill another, and another, another. One everyday. And Charlie, I'll kill you last. "

Again, a threat to do something, not an admission. Remember, Steve was already dead at that time.

In addition, just to stay on topic: TPTB have stated the island and the Losties situation is "In our reality as we know it" and that it is not Purgatory, etc. It does not involve time travel, aliens or dinosaurs. It isn't "The Matrix" or Shangri-La. The island is real. It isn't a submarine or giant tortoise.

:DeadHorse:

NeillT006

03-18-06, 06:48 AM

Badger

03-18-06, 06:53 AM

See my edited post. At no time did Ethan admit to killing anyone, nor did anyone including the viewers, witness his death. It's speculation, nothing more. It is not fact.

Granted, he may have. But again, that calls for speculation. Even the circumstantial evidence in this case is iffy at best.

I apologize if this seems overly bearing or rude, but it's a pet peeve of mine to repeatedly read statements of fact, when they are nowhere near facts, such as "Ethan killed Steve".

It is not merely a matter of semantics either as it can lead to confusion. Many here believe and even state some things as factual, yet they may or may not be.