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Wynter Zera
11-13-04, 03:46 PM
Because no myth-story should ignore the archetype factor. Obviously this show has no main character per say, but some characters (LOCKE) are functioning as archetypes.

the hero - No need to explain

the mentor- The mentor is a character who aids or trains the hero. The essence of the mentor is the wise old man or woman. The mentor represents the wiser and more godlike qualities within us.The mentor's role may be to teach the hero. These characters are often found in the roles of drill instructor, squad leader or sergeant, the older officer policeman, the aged warrior training the squire, a trail boss, parent or grandparent, etc. An effective teacher may be an otherwise inept or foolish character who possesses just the skill or wisdom the hero needs for his challenge.The other major role of the mentor is to equip the hero by giving him a gift or gifts which are important in his quest. These gifts may be weapons, medicine or food, magic, or some important clue or piece of information. Frequently, the mentor requires the hero to have passed some sort of test before receiving the gift. The gift may be a seemingly insignificant object, the importance of which doesn't emerge until later.The mentor may occasionally be the hero's conscience, returning him to the right path after he strays or strengthening him when he weakens. The hero doesn't always appreciate this assistance, of course.

threshold guardian-The threshold guardian is the first obstacle to the hero in his journey. The threshold is the gateway to the new world the hero must enter to change and grow.The threshold guardian is usually not the story's antagonist. Only after this initial test has been surpassed will the hero face the true contest and the arch-villain. Frequently the threshold guardian is a henchman or employee of the antagonist. But the threshold guardian can also be an otherwise neutral character, or even a potential ally such as the police lieutenant who warns the hero private detective off the case, or the Cowardly Lion who first frightens and then joins Dorothy on her journey to Oz.
The role of the threshold guardian is to test the hero's mettle and worthiness to begin the story's journey, and to show that the journey will not be easy. The hero will encounter the guardian early in the story, usually right after he starts his quest.

the shadow -The Shadow archetype is a negative figure, representing things we don't like and would like to eliminate.The shadow often takes the form of the antagonist in a story. But not all antagonists are villains; sometimes the antagonist is a good guy whose goals disagree with the protagonist's. If the antagonist is a villain, though, he's a shadow.
The shadow is the worthy opponent with whom the hero must struggle. In a conflict between hero and villain, the fight is to the end; one or the other must be destroyed or rendered impotent.
While the shadow is a negative force in the story, it's important to remember that no man is a villain in his own eyes. In fact, the shadow frequently sees himself as a hero, and the story's hero as his villain.

the shapeshifter - The shapeshifter changes role or personality, often in significant ways, and is hard to understand. That very changeability is the essence of this archetype. The shapeshifter's alliances and loyalty are uncertain, and the sincerity of his claims is often questionable. This keeps the hero off guard.The shapeshifter is often a person of the opposite sex, often the hero's romantic interest. In other stories the shapeshifter may be a friend or ally of the same sex, often a buddy figure, or in fantasies, a magical figure such as a shaman or wizard.The shapeshifter is sometimes a catalyst whose changing nature forces changes in the hero, but the normal role is to bring suspense into a story by forcing the reader, along with the hero, to question beliefs and assumptions. As with the other archetypes, any character, including the protagonist and antagonist, can take on attributes of the shapeshifter at different times in the story. The hero often assumes the role of shapeshifter to get past an obstacle. Mentors often appear as shapeshifters.

the trickster - The Trickster is a clown, a mischief maker. He provides the comedy relief that a story often needs to offset heavy dramatic tension. The trickster keeps things in proportion.The trickster can be an ally or companion of the hero, or may work for the villain. In some instances the trickster may even be the hero or villain. In any role, the trickster usually represents the force of cunning, and is pitted against opponents who are stronger or more powerful.

ColLocke
11-13-04, 04:23 PM
Let's see if we can match characters to these:

The Hero- Jack, I'd say

The Mentor- oh wow, this one is hard :rolleyes Locke

Threshold Guardian- I'm gonna have to say Jack's dad.

The Shadow- I'm gonna have to either say Sawyer or Rousseau, who we haven't met

The Shapeshifter- Probably Kate

The Trickster- Hurley, dude

Wynter Zera
11-13-04, 04:29 PM
Yes, I'm betting we haven't met our "main villian" yet...

Locke is a Mentor alright but I think he maybe doubling as a Shapeshifter to.

Interesting to note that in episode 8:
Locke (Mentor) give knife to Sayid (Hero/shadow???)
Sayid (hero/shadow???) tortures Sawyer (Sayid's Threshold Guardian)
Sayid is now ready to "start his quest" and scout the beach in the next episode...the next episode is Sayid centered.

Abraxas
11-14-04, 02:42 AM
That's interesting. I think it depends on POV who is who, like you mentioned Wynter Zera. From each persons perspective there are others who fit certain archetypes. As Lost is a character-centric show, this can be applied in most cases.

Kate as hero:
threshold guard - the marshal guy
mentor - Jack and maybe the marshal guy...and I have a hunch that Locke will help her in some way :p
shadow - formerly the marshal guy, now it's Sawyer and her sadness
shapeshifter - Jack/Sawyer
trickster - noone really

Locke as hero:
threshold guard - himself and his boss perhaps
mentor - the island and the monster
shadow - he and his condition
shapeshifter - perhaps the monster in the future, when it will let him down in some way
trickster - Charlie in parts

Jack as hero:
threshold guard - father
mentor - Locke (and he himself in some way)
shadow - Sawyer
shapeshifter - Kate
trickster - Hurley

Sun as hero:
threshold guard - Jin
mentor - Michael
shadow - Jin, but moreso her father
shapeshifter - Jin
trickster - Michael and Walt to some extent

Charlie as hero:
threshold guard - his brother Liam
mentor - Locke
shadow - his addiction
shapeshifter - Kate (wants to have her attention, but can't get to her?)
trickster - Claire (he feels at ease when with her so I guess she qualifies)

Sawyer:
threshold guard - hard to say actually...Jack, Kate, Sayid?...himself?...or the real Sawyer?
mentor - ditto...perhaps Kate the most
shadow - most likely still the real Sawyer...then Jack and Sayid...but in a strange way Kate as well
shapeshifter - Kate and Sayid and Jack, too
trickster - he is his own trickster

See? Sawyer is really a complex guy...

This is fun. And as you can see it works. Great thread.
;)

ColLocke
11-14-04, 03:41 AM
I like the idea of Locke's boss being his threshold guardian.

I can tell that you took at least some of this form Joseph Campbell's myth structure, so, to introduce another Campbell element, I bring up:

The Inciting Incident- this is the event that propels the hero along his/her journey, the Point of No Return.

For everyone, you could say that it's when they went on the plane, but I'll narrow it down more.

For Locke it would probably be the Aussie walkabout guy saying that he can't go.

For Jack it was his father's death.

For Kate it was the man turning her in.

For Charlie I'd have to say it was his vist with Liam, or perhaps when he began using.

Sun actually missed the inciting incident for another journey (leaving Jin), which is the inciting incident for this journey.

I missed Sawyer's episode, so I can't help you there.

Any thoughts on those?

JacksGirlfriend
11-14-04, 10:16 PM
I think I have a different view of what a trickster character is. Although there are elements of humor in a trickster (and often the only comic relief in an otherwise tense situation), I associate the trickster with sinister, malicious or otherwise negative intent. The snake the Garden of Eden; Gollum in Lord of the Rings; Caliban in the Tempest. The trickster usually works against the hero and needs to be defeated or contained before the hero can accomplish his goal. A trickster is usually a thorn in the side or a nagging voice at your shoulder.

Most of you have equated Charlie and Hurley as a trickster figure. Both are enormously appealing and humorous, but I don't see either of them as the trickster. They have only worked toward helping our heroes accomplish their goals. They've aided others, been compassionate and added levity to the situation.

If anyone in Lost is a trickster, it is Locke. He goads people, he challenges them and though seemingly helpful, his motives at this point are suspect. So far his intentions aren't really known, but I suspect that once Jack's/Kate's/Sayid's goals don't mesh with his own, we will see another part of his personality emerge.

It may just be a matter of semantics and it's been years since I studied literature, but the trickster you have been describing is not the trickster I know.

JacksGirl

Abraxas
11-15-04, 10:59 PM
Yes, you are right, JG. A trickster is different from Wynter Zera's definition. I thought the same, but I decided to stay within this definition.
I'd say what we are looking for is rather a "joker" or a "fool". It's hard to say if we are just stuck with the wrong word here or maybe we have the right term, but the definition is not correct?

But "trickster" fits for someone who switches moods and appearances like in the Kate-Jack-Sawyer triangle.
It's hard to say with what expression we should stick.

IslandLife
11-16-04, 04:01 AM
I think the writers are the real tricksters!!! I think that we're all being misled. What if Jack isn't the main character. What if this is really the story of Charlie (or Locke) or one of the other characters who now appear to be secondary. This could really be the story of Hurley.

Wynter Zera
12-11-04, 06:00 PM
Ethan = shadow???

sawyerhasbestlines
12-11-04, 09:03 PM
How about greek & roman mythology archetypes?

- Who is Hermes? Hermes is a trickster, he is famous for his hat and his sandals, he is god of communication, "he who carries the message", artful speech in negotiation, wins by appearing to lose, court jester, playful with a purpose, sexually ambiguous, Hermes magic is binding and unbinding. One of Hermes jobs was to "keep a register of the dead"!?!?
my vote is Hermes is HURLEY!

- Artemis the huntress - sounds like Kate to me with her tracking skills

- Ulysses/Odysseus got maimed in the thigh by a boar - Michael also got maimed in the thigh by a bore, and Sayid got a branch in his thigh

- who is Ariadne - the one who gets them out of the labyrinth?

- Dionysos - who could this be?...
check out this poem referring to Dionysos:

"The Favorite God of Women

This stranger they tell me has also come to town,
this trickster magician from the land of Lydia,
this curly haird goldilocks who perfumes his hair,
who goes around from a sexy look in his eye,
who gets together with girls daytime and nighttime,
proposing some secret pleasures from them,
..."
- Euripedes, the Bacchae

- Claire: there are plenty of pregant goddesses who gave birth to half monsters half gods. I guess we got to see what she gives birth to.

That's all I can think of now.

:D

drabauer
12-11-04, 10:16 PM
sawyerhtblines, we are always on a similar wavelength. Ages ago I brought up the Odyssey on these boards--but I never followed through with all the other mythological allusions. Now that you've brought it up, I can see all kinds of connections. Life on Olympus after all was both a grand soap opera and fraught with peril and adventure.

Ooo I feel a new theory coming on: I will post it now!

Thanks for the inspiration!

sawyerhasbestlines
12-12-04, 04:11 PM
drabauer

Glad you posted your new theory - good one!

I'm a little fixated on my Hermes Hurlyey one right now even though I haven't totally convinced myself.

Hermes made a deal with Hades where it involved him making a register of names of the dead. That's pretty close to what Hurley did when he gathered all the names.

I'm also curious to see what/if divisions might develop and if Hurley is the one who freely goes between all the oppositions: (the others - main characters), (sick, not sick), (division within the tribe)...

Also having a hunch that Kate will be more of a sister figure to Jack instead of a love interest.

Yeah, then there is definnately, like you said alluding to the Demeter/Persephone underworld thing. Ethan as Hades??

drabauer
12-12-04, 06:32 PM
Hermes made a deal with Hades where it involved him making a register of names of the dead. That's pretty close to what Hurley did when he gathered all the names.

Very cool observation! I guess I skipped Hermes in Greek Myth 101 :\

Yeah, then there is definnately, like you said alluding to the Demeter/Persephone underworld thing. Ethan as Hades??

That's the first thing that sprang to mind when Claire was "abducted." Also, in a recent interview, William Mapother states that he doesn't think his character is evil, that we need more context (which I don't consider a spoiler, because a larger context always determines the ethics of acts in an Abrams show). That is, Hades was just misunderstood, if a brute; he could be quite reasonable at times.

I haven't settled on other archetypes yet. Sawyer himself seems like a Greek chorus, and Jack could be (to take a turn toward the literary) taking a trip to Colonus and future clarity on his many many issues.

sawyerhasbestlines
12-12-04, 07:05 PM
Danielle as Circe

"A sorceress, ... She lived on an
island, where with potions and incantations,
she was able to turn people into beasts. Her
victims retained their reason, however, and
knew what had happened to them. In the course
of his wanderings, the Greek hero Odysseus
visited her island with his companions, whom
she turned into swine."

Kinda makes you wonder who all those boars are that Locke hunts???

drabauer
12-12-04, 07:31 PM
Kinda makes you wonder who all those boars are that Locke hunts???

"chills" :(

Mr Block of Cheese
01-15-05, 12:16 AM
You people are geniuses....:|

LostInWilderness
06-19-05, 09:31 PM
Looking back at this after watching the entire season, I don't thing any character fits any archtype. These characters are far to complex to fit these classic labels, and I am glad. ;)

athywithak
06-20-05, 05:17 PM
threshold guardian-The threshold guardian is the first obstacle to the hero in his journey. The threshold is the gateway to the new world the hero must enter to change and grow.The threshold guardian is usually not the story's antagonist. Only after this initial test has been surpassed will the hero face the true contest and the arch-villain. Frequently the threshold guardian is a henchman or employee of the antagonist. But the threshold guardian can also be an otherwise neutral character, or even a potential ally such as the police lieutenant who warns the hero private detective off the case, or the Cowardly Lion who first frightens and then joins Dorothy on her journey to Oz.

How about Sawyer to Jack's hero?

Rewatching Tabula Rasa had me thinking how Jack allows everyone (particularly Kate and Sun) a break from who they were, and he doesn't judge too harshly - EXCEPT HIMSELF. Sawyer held and gave Jack the key to overcoming his Dad thing.

Kw/K

Warthawg1
06-20-05, 07:53 PM
I agree that Jack is too hard on himself, but he has also judged others too harshly, and in a very rash fashion.