Hawaiki

[kiwipat]

This board would not be complete without mentioning the netherworld with perhaps the best geographical claim to being the “Lost” island - Hawaiki (not to be confused with the show’s actual location Hawaii).

Hawaiki is the traditional/mythological homeland of the Maori and other Polynesians. It is described as a mysterious and magical place inhabited by various gods (atua), spirits (wairua) and monsters (taniwha). It is where the dead pass through on their way to what are called the “overworlds” and the “underworlds”. It is located smack bang where the Lost appear to be i.e. the South Pacific.

So my take is that they are indeed all dead, and that they’re being subjected to the scrutiny of Hawaiki and her residents - before being moved on (or as the case may be before being tossed back into the real world).

UPDATE: It has been subsequently pointed out to me that there is a strong tradition in Polynesian mythology of mortals journeying to Hawaiki - not only in spirit but in person. This being so I guess the LOST could in fact be alive and on Hawaiki for a purpose other than redemption.

[LostHorizon]

I personally like this theory alot, but I doubt this is the direction the show's writers are going , and I think the majority of fans and readers here would hate it, since it is too much like the Purgatory theory..... :b

[jaystao]

I was just in the midst of writing a post when I spotted this and had to reply to it. As a Pacific Islander it annoys me that the writers might imply some how that a land mass the 'apparent' scale of this island they're on was not initially inhabited by the native peoples of the Pacific at some point. True the castaways might eventually find the remains of civilizations that attribute to the Polynesians/Micronesians la la, but at this point there is no sign of that (just the French.... typical). The migration of the Pacific has been happening for the last ten thousand years not to mention that micro nesia has been colonized and walked about by various groups for the last 100'000 years. Surely this significant activity in the Pacific should have some influence in a landmass that is supposedly placed in this location (or is it?).

This leads me to follow the threads that the island and it's location is somehow displaced from the rest of the world, or/and it is some how interlinked with the history of it's locale and that the ship wrecking on this island or other Islands like it has been going on for a 'long' time.

That is to say maybe the island 'is' Hawaiki. And that it is somehow a real place. Maybe thousands of years ago Polynesian explorers found that their wave instrumentation wasn't working and the stars suddenly seemed to look a bit 'off', Maui looks to his friend Sione (john) Lo'ke'e * and says "lets check out that island...." Que terrible storm and ship wreck....

* Says his legs are useless due to a spiritual curse but everyone else reckons he's faking it.

....on a more serious note however.

The island as mythology is everywhere. Prospero's island in the tempest, the various islands in Greek mythology, Atlantis, Hawaiki, all of these places being some what fantastic in nature. Pacific islanders all have tales of legendary ancestors that were capable of great and powerful feats of magic. Maybe there is a real source for this mythology as a re-embellishing of 'history'. A locale that is a rare occurrence in time and space that enhances human 'spirituality', that walks a fine line between dream and reality, where the mind, soul and body are all but different dimensions of one form. Maybe its some kind of rare gravitational oddity. Maybe it is a volcanic occurrence (as many islands are caused by volcanic eruptions). Where rare volcanic activity causes an unusual ecological phenomena. A 'well spring of life', as has been suggested by some theories. Enhancing and developing evolution to its fullest potential.

To say that this island and it's qualities has no reference in known history is some what tenacious. Ancient man probably would have understood it differently (with its dream and spiritual aspects coming to the fore). Mythology and folklore in the 'beginnings' of civilizations often deal with natural disasters as the catalyst for social change (the great flood in ancient folklore and scripture) and many religions/myths seem to resonate a central nexus, an eden that was the birth place of their spiritual and social existence.

Either this island has been here for a while or maybe these places crop up now and again every few thousand years through out the world, give life a boost for a few hundred years or so and then slowly fades due to contamination or as all life on earth 'adjusts' to this contamination. A single life defining gene or element that is hidden deep within the earth which vulcanic eruptions can disperse. Maybe this element is 'heavy' in some way. Perhaps it is dormant and inert until it mixes with other living contaminations which may 'define' its nature (such as the roots of a tree coming into contact with it).

If such a place had been theorized and then discovered what sort of research would have taken place there in our modern times and by whom? What if something already contaminated by this element (something other then man that usually gets a foot hold first) reacted negatively to this original experimentation.

I've digressed from my original topic at this point so I'll stop but I just wondered what realistic reasons could be for such a concept of Hawaiki existing in our modern age and what difficulties such a place would have when faced with modern social politics. Genetic engineering anyone?

PS:
The reasons there were no Polynesians on the plane.

Either, realizing the potential evil of the island, they quickly inflated the planes life boats and sailed off when no one was looking.

They all traveled Polynesian Airlines and air NZ because it was cheaper and they would have been more willing to put a dead relative on the plane.

The bare basic 'live of the land' Polynesians would have been trying to contact their city based relatives to pay their air fare whom never received the message because they were watching LOST.

Most city based Polynesians wouldn't actually know how the f**k to live of an island in the first place and would have got irritated when people kept asking them how.

They wouldn't have taken Sawyers cr*p from word go.

The fine sexual balance between the castaways would have been put in jeopardy.

They are on the show, but no one notices them because their doing all the cleaning jobs in the back ground.

They would have beaten up the monster.

They are already on the island and are the reasons for all the strange phenomenon. Eventually a castaway is going to find the remains of a jandal or UB40Cd to prove this.

...to the Pacific Island fans that I know are out there.

[drabauer]

Jay, you are a great writer and very funny to boot!

Thanks for making my evening!

[kiwipat]

Maybe Hawaiki has been warped by the impact of modern man. Perhaps by French exploitation/nuclear testing/experimentation as has been discussed elsewhere.

However maybe its just Hawaiki doing what Hawaiki does best ie. adapting to sensibilities of the Lost - a modern sophisticated largely young white clientele.

Instead of the taniwha, spirits and gods of old Hawaiki when Nesians were the only inhabitants of the Pacific. We now have polar bears, ghosts, and mysterious giant
things.

On the seeming lack of evidence for Nesian settlement, as mentioned above this may point to the island being somewhere outside the region geographically or spacially, or it may simply be a case of not enough exploration yet.

Perhaps it just points to the islands’ isolation within the region. Not all islands were settled, to the detriment of many a castaway - ask Amelia Earhart ( Earhart and her male co-pilot went missing in the region in 1937... Adam and Eve...A&E...Amelia Earhart?).

Or maybe the Nesians simply gave the place a wide birth because of its weirdness.

Or maybe as I prefer to believe their footprints are there (it was their traditional homeland afterall) just on another dimension.

P.S. Fear not Jays maybe some Polys will turn up in the cast - maybe they were in the budget tail section ;)

[jaystao]

The Amelia Earhart idea resonates quite well but that was all before French nuclear testing. At that time there was another strand of activity in the Pacific. World war two. I was thinking what if the Japanese or Americans came to the island and discovered it's properties during the war. They started doing some testing which annoyed the ecology of the island (like a swarm of bees being agitated). The questionable Eugenics program was quite popular with Nazi Germany around this era.

Japanese or American military may have been responsible for Daniels Hut and its 'torture' facilities (it looked pretty archaic). Maybe they brought the sickness to the island with their war mongering and the whispering in the trees is the psychic resonance of the victims of what ever happened there.

Perhaps this sickness killed any original inhabitants as well. Maybe A&E were fighting this experimentation on the side lines like the original Eco-warriors.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this region where the castaways are LOST in has a lot of history. Polynesian migration. British/French/Dutch explorations. French Nuclear testing. The social politics of colonial rule over native inhabitants not to mention the fall out of both world wars. There was also sickness that killed millions due to contact with European exploration - in Hawaii particularly this caused a near genocide of the Hawaiian people and culture (later to be made worse under biased and indifferent colonial rule).

The Pacific also holds a great history of social and genetic investigation (an anthropologists play ground) due to its isolated locations and people. Recently geneticists have done studies on blood and DNA samples across this region to find past migration patterns of various social groupings with some very interesting results. Also posing strange questions about the regions history and where certain blood strains came from (that being mostly a slow ongoing migration from Asia but there are other strands unaccounted for).

Finally there are histories of Tourism and capital development, civil unrest, independence and much more. My last note being the issues of the environment where entire nations in the Pacific are under threat due to rising sea levels, increasingly alarming weather patterns and environmental pollution.

It would be quite surprising after filming in Hawaii for a certain amount of time that the creators of LOST were not in some way affected by some parts of these historical and current issues. So much that a simple sci-fi/action/drama venture could evolve into something far more meaningful and politically savvy. I'm not saying that is where I want it to go but, well, it brings up an age old philosophical conundrum that was discussed millenia ago by Plato * no less - "Why does tragedy/fiction matter?".

PS lets hope they find that tail then.

* or was it Aristotle? I get them mixed up.

[LostHorizon]

Jays tao wrote:
The Amelia Earhart idea resonates quite well but that was all before French nuclear testing. At that time there was another strand of activity in the Pacific. World war two. I was thinking what if the Japanese or Americans came to the island and discovered it's properties during the war.

As I mentioned in an old thread, there was NO Japanese military presence during WW2 in the part of the pacific where the LOST Island is presumed to be.
The Japanese greatest expansion was checked first at the Battle of the Coral Sea near Austraila in 1942, and then a month later, the famous Battle of Midway. Tarawa atoll in the Gilbert Island chain had the easternmost Japanese presence there with its famously heavily fortified Garrison.
Most of the Island fighting by America and the Allies started with Tarawa, then Guadalcanal at the beginning of the Solomon Islands, and then from there, it was Island hopping and fighting all the way up to Iwo Jima. (See map below )
Besides, the Japanese had no interest in the Southeast Pacific, and would not attempt to even go there, if it wasn't to defend against the advancing forces of the Allies.

http://img212.exs.cx/img212/8017/pacificwar9wl.gif

Unless the LOST island is somewhere in the area of the Pacific Ocean with the Solomons, the Marshalls, Gilbert, etc Islands.....But then, the Island would not be remote or "Lost" in the first place.... They are pretty heavily inhabited, even more so now. Search and rescue from bases there would have been easy.
Remember, they were flying to LA, and then went off course somewhere in the in a huge area in the southeastern area of the Pacific.....

http://img141.exs.cx/img141/3293/devilstrimap6ok.jpg

Here is a map of the ten mysterious areas or zones of disapareances and magnetic disturbances. Bermuda Triangle and the Devil's Triangle are the two of the most well known areas. But as you can see from the map above, there are two areas in the south Pacific that have these strange "Limbo of the Lost" areas. And they are both well outside the furthest extent of Japanese expansion pervious and up to WW 2.
Who knows, maybe somewhere in those South Pacific triangles is the Hawaiki / Lost Island! :b

[jaystao]

Perhaps the idea of the Japanese in the Pacific was un-researched, though perhaps a more secretive project could have been conducted there. We know the island or something on it maybe capable of drawing or distorting things toward it, this could be caused by some gravitational distortion. But if something like this were to be found by any government they wouldn't likely put it on the map. If the Japanese found this island they wouldn't tell anyone and whoever found it after them probably wouldn't put it in the history books either, so it could fall well outside the perimeter of any expansion map. I don't believe the island was part of any strategic military operation per say, but could have been the base for secret experiments conducted by some world power at the time of WWII. LOST kind of reminds me of the island in 'the thin red line' so I thought there maybe a connection.

In regards to volcano's however the island poses much more interesting aspects. The black rock sounds like the rock from a lava flow but also sounds like something out of legend. A sacred place, of sanctuary or cursed for it's nature. Either way I'm going to have a look at some pacific island mythology on the matter....

[drabauer]

Regardless of Japanese influence or not, I want to thank you Jays tao for reminding us of the rich history of that area. I agree that if the producers didn't weave it into the original sotry idea, they likely have by now.

[SayidsGirl]

A question for Jays tao since you seem to have a good knowledge of Polynesian migration (a subject that has always fascinated me). I found this thread because I was thinking about where the boars came from on our Lost island. I've always thought that boars weren't native to the islands but that they were taken from island to island by Polynesian people when they migrated. If so, then at some time our island must have been inhabited by Polynesian people. What happened to them? I'm hoping the writers touch on this in the series. (BTW, I apologize if I'm confusing the terms Polynesian, Micronesian, etc. because I really don't know the precise meanings of the terms.)

[jaystao]

Yes. If the island was a collection of islands it could be possible for a small migration if the islands were very close but at some point the pigs would have to be introduced to the islands chain. Large herbivores do not develop naturally on small islands because they don't support the ecological factors that such evolution would require let alone natural selection. The majority of small island ecologies that had large animals mainly came in the form of birds many of which had become flightless because of a lack of large predators (think dodo). Presumably Polynesians must have therefore been on the island at some point. Considering the nature of the island they probably left rather hurriedly or were simply swallowed up by the islands weirdness. Unless the pigs are purely a result of some collective imagination (for matrix/dream time fans). Though it also could imply that the islands unusual nature was something that had occurred well after lone Polynesian activity on the island, an incident that is more to do with modern times. What ever the case considering the size of the island, unless there was something truly unlivable about it, it clearly would have been a prime candidate for colonization by Poly's.

[Gambit980]

I had no I idea there where so many places to get Lost on this planet. Thanks for the map Lost Horizon. I know I may sound stupid asking this, but is there any connection between Aboriginal Australians and Polynesians people?

Thanks

btw I never thought about it that way but the boars had to not come from the island.

[LostHorizon]

Gambit980 wrote:

I had no I idea there where so many places to get Lost on this planet. Thanks for the map Lost Horizon. I know I may sound stupid asking this, but is there any connection between Aboriginal Australians and Polynesians people?

Yes, the Polynesian people are a racial mix of the once wide spread Australnesian people of southern Asia ( which the Australian Aboriginees and South Indian Dravidians are one of the last and largest groups remaining ), and the Mongolian people from mainland Asia.

[kiwipat]

I’ve been doing a bit more research and have come up with some interesting notes on Hawaiki from Dr. Margaret Orbell’s “Hawaiki - a new approach to Maori tradition”
(Orbell is a New Zealand academic with an interest in Maori Mythology).

In her book she identifies six “Hawaikis” present in the so-called Polynesian triangle encompassing the Hawaiian Islands in the North, New Zealand in the South-West, and Easter Island in the East.

In their local dialects they are:

Savai’i in Samoa,

Hawai’i in the Hawaiian Islands,

Havai’i in the Society Islands,

Havaiki in the Tuamotus,

Avaiki in the Cook Islands, and

Hawaiki in New Zealand

In the case of Samoa, the Hawaiian group, and the Societies the name is given to real islands. In all the other cases it is applied to supernatural, mythical islands.

Some of the islands are places of origin from which the first men and women are thought to have sprung. In all cases it is the place to which some people at least make their way after death.

In the case of the real islands the name is attached because the places are highly revered for this kind of mythology, and also in the case of two of them because of some remarkable geographical features. In Samoa it is attached to a large and fertile island where the Samoan’s first man or “adam” lived. In the Hawaiian group it is attached to an island dominated by two enormous and active volcanoes, Mauna Loa and Kilauea - the later of which is the abode of the great goddess Pele and other deities. In the Societies it is attached to an island with a high extinct volcano thought to be the entrance to the underworld.

The supernatural islands have similar associations, e.g. Hawaiki according to the Maori of New Zealand was the place where the first man and woman (Tiki & Hine) were created, and the souls of the departed pass through a great house at its centre on their way to the overworlds and underworlds.

Given the Lost are most probably lost in this region, and also the fact that the show is actually shot in Hawaii, its hard to see it not being touched on some level by this rich current of local and eerily parallel mythology.

We have imaginary and real islands in the region where the dead go (the Lost), where life began (Adam & Eve), that have entrances to other realms (hatch).

Yep I’m leaning further toward a supernatural explanation - Ancient supernature adapting to the personal and modern sensibilities of our deceased heroes. However the notion of some kind of corruption of this ancient supernature by some kind of modern western/scientific influence is also intriguing.

[jaystao]

Still not entirely convinced. But I have seen the cave that is the mythical entrance into the underworld in Sava'i Samoa. It is a small spooky hole about the size of the hatch found in Lost that leads into darkness. The area surrounding it is eerie (since it is located in a rain forest terrain), the people who live there also have an eerie otherly feel to them. Probably because of the spiritual stigma the place resonates but many strange stories of unusual coincidences and spirituality surround this locale, and many of them told by visitors. It must be noted that there is also a large degree of mythology surrounding the black rock of Sava'i. This being the lava fields and fallen debree of volcano's that are scattered around the island.

[kiwipat]

Yes I wouldn’t mind betting that the mysterious black rock in the show will turn out to be lava rock, thus providing another link to Hawaiki.

In response to the boars question above I would add the following:

As Jays points out wild pigs or boars are not native to the Pacific, they were introduced by man.

The following info is from Pigs, Peccaries and Hippos Status Survey and Action Plan (1993) by William L. R. Oliver and I. Lehr Brisbin:

As settling peoples spread from South-East Asia into Melanesia, and then into Polynesia, they carried pigs with them.

Pigs were introduced to New Guinea at least 6,000 years ago; introduced to Fiji by 1300 B.C.; and had spread into most of Polynesia by about 1000 B.C. By 1000 A.D. pigs had been introduced throughout much of the Pacific region, including the Hawaiian Islands.

Later European expansion saw the first pigs introduced into New Zealand in the 18th century and into Australia around the same time. Apparently they were still being introduced to some islands on the fringes of the Pacific right up until the early 20th century.

Assuming then that the boars are real it would seem then that real men carrying real pigs must have visited the Lost island at some time perhaps as far back as 3000 years ago.

[Coyote1066]

I really like this theory a lot. With out knowing it I came to a similar conclusion in the "16 years? Something doesn't make sense..." thread. Rather than re-typing all of it I'm going to cut-n-paste (since I don't know how to cross link). You'll have to read the first page of that thread to figure out some of the stuff I talking about. Forgive me if I got the Pacific Islander mythos thing wrong.

Here it is:

A couple items to help out with the time issue. Hurley was driving a Hummer...they didn't start coming out until the mid-90s, right? He also listens to modern music on his CD walkman. He had a friend in the Gulf War (1991).

The initial reaction to Sayid is that he's a terrorist. Post 9/11? The passengers are also shocked that Locke had knives he then explains they were checked, right?

Why make the show 1995, 1999 or 2001? What purpose would that serve? It might, but I doubt it.

About the signal, it's possible that it had been going on a LONG time before the transmission was actually heard. It may have been a realtive weak signal only heard 16ys ago due to optimum atmospheric conditions which allowed it to bounce and be heard by US listening stations near Australia. Chances are that the French team was much closer when they heard it since I bet they were come out of French Polynesia and were heading somewhere remote.

Here's a theory. The symbol mentioned on the first page of this thread really does looks like an air defence insignia (as someone already mentioned). The picture on the first page shows a red circle but I wonder if maybe what folks saw was the C and D so close together it looked like a circle. Look at these: www2.powercom.net/~rokats/cdinsignia.html

During WWII (I know, not again) the US used inhabitants (or stationed people) of remote islands to act as early warning aircraft spotters, even in areas not in the actual combat zone (there were aircraft spotters here in Colorado!). These spotters would have been a part of the Civil Defense force, would have had supplies marked with that insignia, would have had to have a means to transmit their sightings (a radio tower), would have had a long term power supply (tidal generator...cable into the sea) for the radio, would have needed some form of self defense (bold-action Springfield rifles used by the US prior to the M1) and might have had a bomb shelter (hatch).

These orignal spotters may be the two 40+ old corpses. They're at least 40yrs old...maybe 60. After that many years can you really tell the difference? Ethan and anyone else may be the decendants of those spotters or they may be other survivors...I don't believe they're other suvivors because I think the radio signal that brought the French team was only detectable for a short period of time (atmospheric conditions changed). The fact that the current survivors arrived so much later was due to the series of events that had to transpire to get Hurley on that plane.

Now I don't have any answers as to why so many supernatural events keep occuring or how they fit in with the Civil Defense theory but the forces on the island may have existed many years (centuries) before the spotters came. I also don't know what the numbers mean. Maybe they're old code, maybe they're a warning or maybe the supernatural forces made the spotters or their decendants broadcast them to attact more people (as others have said). Pacific Islanders have a developed mythos of sometimes revengeful gods punishing transgressors or demanding sacrifices, right? Maybe the orignal spotters' presence or actions somehow angered the gods of that island.

How does that all sound?

[kiwipat]

Sounds good, I feel the CD thread has real promise - but it hard to see the gods getting upset over a few spotters (if thats all they were). Its those with the sinister agendas like experimentation or trying to control the island that would worry them.

But who knows, anythings possible - especially in this show.

Two points -

The Polynesian gods weren’t all about “vengeance”, and “demanding sacrifices”. Though this is probably the impression you’d get from watching too many films like King Kong. Sure they could be judgmental, vengeful, and destructive especially when threatened - but they could also be kind, helpful and fair-minded. In short they could display every human trait good and bad.

Secondly the gods were not all-powerful. At times they could be vulnerable and weak, even gullible, naive and stupid. They could be fooled, even manipulated - and indeed there is a rich mythology of mortal man (and those between life and death) doing just this. Perhaps some of the island visitors in the show have been trying to do the same.

[Coyote1066]

Sorry about my anglo-fied view of island gods. :D

It was the Brady Bunch cursed Tiki episode that ruined my perception.

Anyway, I'm having trouble working the supernatural angle myself. Maybe they were upset before the spotters (Adam-Eve) got there.

If it is gods, especially as you described them, that could explain why some survivors seem to be benefiting from being on the island...maybe they're in favor.

[jaystao]

I remember when I stayed in the islands my uncle use to wait up all night for us to come home and when we stepped into the dark living room pissed drunk he'd turn on the light, grin, sit us down and tell us about the old genealogies and legends of Samoa (not the ones in the books but the 'real' ones). Some of the stories he told could easily fit into the super natural spookiness of Lost. In point fact, some of the experiences and stories that surround Samoa present day are quite frankly even more spooky and crap all over any pseudo science explanations. Because they can be explained doesn't make them any less spooky in fact it makes it worse because you realize that its 'natural' for one to have their hair pulled by nothing or to see dream people laughing at you when you wake up. We went out to this island in the lagoon of my family village one day and I was told there was this three legged dog that haunted the island. I dismissed this out right as superstition but when we were leaving sure enough I saw a dog on the beach with three legs and I turned to my cousin and asked her if she saw it and she just shrugged dismissively shaking her head (theres nothing like a good joke on behalf of visitors, in the islands).

[lacenaire]

When Jack was arguing with the lady from the air company they repeated 3 times the phrase

"THERE IS NO LATITUDE"

Could that be related to the island?

[LostInWilderness]

Back by request. If anybody wants any other thread moved back from the archives, just send me a PM.

[jaystao]

Thanks LIW, will post some material later on.