+ new theory: theyre not the only ones who want off the island

[karl]

ok i came up with this theory last night and me and my friend discussed it for two hours and cant come up with any holes. it came to me when i was thinking about ghostbusters.

two things need to be assumed for this theory to work:
1.) the axis powers really did experiment with the occult in world war 2
2.) telekinesis/manifestation powers really exist in humans

lets start at the beginning, i am gonna hop around a bit in the timeline to try and best explain it. so the axis really did bring out a demon during world war 2. after the war, the US discovers it and realizes it needs to make sure it never reaches the outside world. they use those rocks (black and white) to subdue it, since they create a "neutral" field between good and evil when used. they trap this thing in a bunker, and write the military code number for the operation on it (hurleys number). furthermore, they construct a radio station to constantly emit this number so anyone who came close, and who would be assumed to be only military ships since this island is in the middle of nowhere, would look up the number, see its a blacklisted military operation, and move on. in this way the demon was thought to have finally been captured and buried forever. 2 people (clergymen? religious fanatics? soldiers?) stay behind and eventually die there. this happened because, they realized the demon could influence thoughts outside of the bunker, but not strong enough to tell them what to do. so they burned their only ways off the island to be safe and died there when supplies ran out, still clutching the rocks that helped them subdue the demon in the first place (good and evil,white and black, just like locke pointed out during backgammon).
fastforward to 16 years ago. the frenchwomans ship hears the radio call. they are not military so they think the number is a distress call and go to investigate. they shipwreck. the demon discovers it can heavily influence the thoughts of children (ethan/alex). however, this team is too small to break it out of its prison. so when the crew starts to panic, their minds grow weak and the demon jumbles their thoughts (the sickness). it cant influence them, but it CAN make them hear things from their own mind/memories when they are weakened (this explains what said and sawyer heard in the jungle, they were both extremely emotionally distressed when they heard the whispers from their own past, their minds were weak). the frenchwoman survives but everyone else kills each other (maybe she killed some of them? it doesnt matter though, just that theyre dead). ethan also survives and grows up under the influence of the demon, coming to see it as his father. since it has no one else to influence it is able to keep its influence on ethan even as he grows into adulthood.
rewind to hurleys story beginning. a man hears the numbers at a listening station. he writes them down. heres where things get strange. because these numbers are written on a prison of a being of pure evil, they become wards of evil. normally these powers are impotent, but because the man uses the numbers for evil, he calls forth the curse of this demon upon his life. remember money = greed = a deadly sin = evil. so evil happens around him. eventually hurley gets the numbers, uses them for greed as well, and evil happens around him until he eventually is returning from austrailia on the plane.
rewind to walts story. walt, we discover, has the ability to both CREATE (the bird he saw became real out of the book) and CONTROL (he flew it in to a window) things. he has powers of both manifestation and telekinesis (hencetoforth referred to as m/t). he, thanks to hurleys bad luck powers gets on the same plane as hurley.
now the plane is in flight. hurleys bad luck drives it far far off course, in to the sphere of influence of this creature, who recognizes its own handiwork in hurley. he recognizes walt and walts powers. now the demon is pysched. here is a way for him to control another child, and a child who can create things for him, no less. he uses walts m/t to drive the plane in to the island. now remember, he can only influence walt, NOT completely control him. so when they crash, the demon needs to find someone who can break him out. he senses locke, who walt admired, and cures him using the m/t. now, the demon needs them to stay. using a childs thoughts, who could repair a plane ripped in two? who could guide them to safety? who could make a distress call? the pilot in charge, thats who. BOOM, m/t makes a dino or whatever and the pilots dead. next in its plan, it has walt give locke a vision. i believe the vision shows locke that an angel is hidden in a bunker somewhere on the island and that it needs to be freed and to have a baby to go in to (claires child). boone starts to help locke, even though locke tried to go out looking for it on his own (locke tried to get everyone to go home when they were searching in the jungle for claire, but we all know how that worked out). walt starts to look up to boone too, and BOOM m/t makes sure that boone is dead set on helping locke open that bunker.
meanwhile, we have ethan. he sees the crash and decides to blend in, after all hes been alone for so long. he sees claire and realizes that if his "father" could influence a childs mind than a babys mind would be so unformed he might be able to completely jump in to it if he was freed. he decided to watch over claire, but is found out as a traitor. ethan flips out and kidnaps her, charlie was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. well, as soon the demon realizes what ethans done, he abandons it. claire escapes, since ethan is mad and distraught that his fathers favor has been lost to a new child (walt) and he wants to regain it. he decides he must recapture claire to do this. he makes threats only, since he is not confident enough w/o his fathers help to do any real damage anymore. who does he kill? a nobody. if he REALLY WANTED to truly just get claire back he would have killed a leader in the group to cripple them and scare them in to returning her. but he knows these people need to raise and support his "father" once he is born, so he needs the leaders around. well they catch ethan and EASILY kick his ass this time since his fathers influence is gone, and charlie kills him.
the demon gives claire a vision during this using walts m/t to erase her memory, since ethan almost certainly spilled the beans to her, and if she knows she might try to kill the baby, and if she told everyone, no one would try to leave the island when the baby is grown, they would know it is evil, and they would stop locke from opening the bunker in the first place.
it burns michaels boat b/c they cant leave just yet, using the m/t.
this current episode? locke builds claire a FREAKING CRIB!!!! he doesnt want anything to hurt his "angel" when its born........

questions/comments welcomed and encouraged, thanks to anyone who sat there and read my theory!

[spikecstacy]

That was great!!!! I think you are on to something.

[karl]

thanks man, you see any glaring inconsistencies?

[JacksGirlfriend]

Well - I must say it was interesting and quite imaginative and you actually managed to tie everything together quite nicely. However...

There has been great debate on the supernatural elements of this show and whether or not they exist. Despite appearances (although I love supernatural twists), I don't think the supernatural elements are "real" in this show. When all is said and done, I believe the show is not going to have a supernatural bent at all. I believe it will be rooted in reality and though it may have some pseudo-scientific elements, I don't expect anything this unusual.

But I do respect your thought process and the enthusiasm which with you presented your idea. Thanks for an entertaining read and keep thinking.

[karl]

jgf,
yeah i do know that (possibly minor SPOILER here) it has been said that the show will probably not be resolved with any "sci-fi" elements, but i believe this to be rooted enough in religion and the arcane to be taken out of the realm of "sci fi"....plus we all know religious topic are HOT this days, and the idea of them not being the only ones trapped on the island is a big enough "out of the box" idea that the writers could satisfy an audience with...i mean if you just find out "it was an experiment" or "it was aliens" or "its all a set up" tha would be a cheesy ending, and given the high quality of the writing so far, i doubt the writers would allow that to happen, but thanks for reading, i appreciate the supportive words from a mod

[east928]

wow...just wow.

[Raven Day]

Nice post, refreshing read. Thanks

[sawyerhasbestlines]

That was a fun read, and I particulary like the idea of the demon. And I also like the idea of the two people who were there and in on it but died there. Maybe they were guards, infected monks or clergy, or sentinals abandoned there by the military.

Following your lead:

I see the demon trapped in that hatch by the military. And that perhaps overtime its powers have grown while being imprisoned underneath it. (sort of like Anne Rice's vampires). And perhaps whoever trapped the being in the hatch underestimated the demon's capabilities. And maybe the demon rewards those that work towards freeing the demon (Locke), and those that don't or try to escape get their rafts burned down or go crazy.

[athywithak]

Good post. Interesting ideas. Nice tie in with the 1940s bodies from the caves, they had kinda slipped my mind.

THANKS

Kw/K

[OhioSteve1]

I have been reading this board since October. This is one of the BEST attempts at a comprehensive explanation. Here are the things I like about this:

1) You have one explanation, not a hodgepodge of unrelated incidents.
2) Your explanation can account for everything. The explanations rooted in science cannot account for the supernatural phenomena.

Of course none of us know the real answer, but I like this thread alot.

[Coyote1066]

Okay, on the surface this many sound a little far fetched but this is the speculation board, right? I'm not trying to hijack this thread but I thought it kinda worked in with the demon/Nazi thing a little.

I know most folks have settled on "Other Man" as THE anagram for Ethan Rom. What about another anagram? "The Roman".

Somewhere is my cobweb cluttered mind I seemed to remember a story of a Roman Centurian cursed to walk the Earth until Doomsday for the act of stabbing Jesus with a spear.

Going with that thought about Ethan I decided to delve the murky depths of the internet for some verification of my memory. What I found is a story/myth that easily fits in with some of the stuff going on around the island.

I'll quote what I found and give links at the end.

1) "Longinus was allegedly the Roman Centurian in charge of the Execution Detail on Golgotha which crucified Jesus of Nazareth. Since the crucifiction took place on a Friday, the eve of the Jewish Sabath, Longinus was ordered to kill the victims early, so that they would not be on the crosses throughout the “holy” time. He dutifully followed orders, ordering the legs broken of he condemned men, and therefore hastening their deaths… in actuality, a rather merciful act. Upon examining the body of Jesus, he determined that the man appeared to already be dead. To ascertain this as fact, he stabbed the limp figure in the side with his “pilum” or spear. Jesus, who was apparently not dead at the time, but nearly so, looked down at the man and said “Soldier, you are content with what you are… therefore… that you shall remain… until I come again”. Thus, Longinus was doubly damned… not only to a near immortality of wandering, but also, to always be a soldier, and always fighting…"

2) "The Spear of Destiny, sometimes known as the Lance or Spear of Longinus, is claimed to be the spear that pierced the side of Jesus when he was on the cross. It is described in John 19:31-37 as being used by a Roman soldier. Later Christian tradition would give the soldier's name as Gaius Cassius, and he is later called Longinus. It should be noted that there is a historical figure named Gaius Cassius Longinus, one of the conspirators responsible for the death of Gaius Julius Caesar (died March 15, 44 BC). This should not necessarily be viewed as "too coincidental," since Roman names held little variety, especially among members of the same family."

3) "It is superstitiously believed that whosoever might hold the spear would have the power to conquer the world but losing it would mean instant death. The legend states that since the Spear had pierced the body of God (Jesus), it became imbued with some kind of magical power and therefore was a weapon capable of defeating any opponent.

Hitler's interest in the relic probably originated with his interest in the 1882 opera Parsifal — by Hitler’s favorite composer, Richard Wagner — which concerned a group of knights and their guardianship of the Holy Grail, as well as the recovery of the Spear.

On March 12, 1938, the day Hitler annexed Austria, he arrived in Vienna a conquering hero. He made his way to the Hofmuseum where he took possession of the Spear which he immediately sent to St. Katherine’s Church in Nuremberg, the spiritual capital of Nazi Germany.

One legend maintains that the spear came into the possession of the United States of America on April 30, 1945; specifically, under the control of the 3rd Army led by General George Patton. Later that day, supposedly in fulfilment of the legend, Hitler committed suicide. Patton became fascinated by the ancient weapon and had its authenticity verified. Patton did not go on to use the spear, as orders came down from General Dwight Eisenhower that the complete Hapsburg regalia including the Spear of Longinus were to be returned to the Hofburg Treasure House, where it remains today. This legend has recently been shown to be quite false. The spear was not recovered until roughly six months after Hitler's suicide, and Patton never had possession of it."

4) "c. 33 CE: The Roman centurion Longinus uses his spear to pierce the side of the dead Christ as he hangs on the cross. The spear of Longinus becomes one of the most important Christian relics, imbued with tremendous mystical power. In future years it falls into the hands of many great conquerors, including Constantine, Charles Martel, Charlemagne, and Frederick of Barbarossa. It becomes known as the Holy Lance — the Spear of Destiny. Notes: The spear was first mentioned in John 19:34, but not the name 'Longinus.'"


Well take all that for what it's worth. I'm not a Bible-toter or a Catholic so I can't really confirm any of the myths.

Here are the sites I gleened info from:

Holy Lance Information (http://www.searchspaniel.com/index.php/Holy_Lance)

Famous Immortals, do a "find on page" for "spear" (http://www.wintersteel.com/files/Articles/Extreme_Age_or_Long_Life.htm)

Spear of Destiny Information (http://www.searchspaniel.com/index.php/Spear_of_Destiny)

The Spear of Longinus (http://sxws.com/charis/relics8.htm)

[boomom2]

Have to say, I like this theory as well as any I've read on the board so far. And, though the scuttlebutt is that the series will not depend on the "supernatural", I think that religion in general is a hot topic and the idea that there is fundemental evil in the world is not necessarily supernatural - many believe it to be fact. Isn't that the nature of Locke and Rousseu's theories? Utilitarianism vs. deiontology? Predetermined fate involving good/bad vs. complete predeterminism? Help me out here - my philosophy is 20 years old and a little rusty!

[karl]

glad to see this theory is getting some good responses!

[ArcadiaJ]

I like the demon theory. Thank you for posting it. I especially like how it supports the fearsome aspect of the unknown creature and the strange lack of action of the survivors.

[Hodgepodge]

Although, this theory is a nice read. As JG points out, TPTB have said that everything on Lost breaks down to science or pseudo-science. Now, I know what you're going to say. 'What about the monster'. Well, like your demon, I'm hoping there isn't a monster per se, but something that can be explained with those two underlined words above. JMO!

[TheHammerOfGod]

One problem I already see and I have just read the first paragraph. The producers said no one who has been on the island has ever left it.

[TheHammerOfGod]

I don't believe m/t is even thought to be able to make actual palpable creatures (alla dino like you say, though we know its not that, but a real monster, source: producers) but only mind control. So how could Walt used m/t (or forced by the demon to use it) to create a real dino? No offense, but this whole theory seems asinine to me.

[karl]

it was just pointed out to me, which i just didnt even realize myself, that this theory also explains why the french woman doesnt know about the monsters, the monsters came with walt, and therefore didnt exist beforehand when the first crew was on the island.......score one for this theory

[Tanner]

While I liked the read, I find way more Hellboy in it than I like, and although the Ethan Rom = The Roman was also a good read, I find it hard to believe, still, I like the connections, lots of fun to think about

Also, I am new, just started reading the boards a few days ago, I really like the site.

[JuniWolfspirit]

Using this theory: Why would it be important for Claire and only Claire to raise her baby? What would happen if she didn't?

[Razmagi]

Why is it important for Claire to raise the baby?

Maybe it's not. Maybe the "demon" manipulated the psychic's vision to put Claire on that plane.

[MonsterEatsPilot]

This is a very well thought out theory.

Thanks for the read. I enjoyed it.

I am not sure if this is the one however.

It has been determined that this show is based in science/psuedo-science.

Do demons fall under the realm of psuedo science?

Or do they fall under the realm of fantasy?

I must say this theory is good because it ties everything together.

Clear and concise. I like this.

Interested to see where we take this theory.

Cheers!

-P

[VickWantsJack]

Great theory...it makes a lot of sense and it pieces together every significant thing that has happened. But one thing that is still unclear, what about Alex? How does he or she play a role in this?

[kiwipat]

Yep good yarn Karl. However it seems to me that it is a scenario that could work equally as well if the so-called “demon” was in fact benign, and it was the imprisoners who were evil.

What if the demon or demons were supernatural beings who had always existed on the island. Beings whose island has been invaded - Beings who have been subject to scientific experimentation, and containment?

This is a notion hinted at in the discussion re “ancient supernature vs corrupting modern science” in the Hawaiki thread.

Perhaps the prisoner just wants freedom and its island back - and so has “drawn in” the Lost to help it achieve it.

[Lovesx3Requiem]

pseudoscience is something that is believed to be, without solid scientific facts. Such as religion or astrology.

So yes, i think demons would be pseudoscience, as well as m/t.

[Hourman]

"The Roman"

In the New Testament (I'm not sure which verse but I'm pretty sure it's in one of Paul's letters) we're told the Anti-Christ is of Roman background.

[OhioSteve1]

worth another look now?

[Ancientwanker]

Fun to read but probably long odds on being accurate. Ill still bet 30 cents on it though as ill be rich if youre right.

[Gambit980]

If Walt was the one who made the plane crash. Then how did the Nigerian plane crash on the island. And why is it a Nigerian plan and not a Polynesian plane. It is a good read probably make a good script for a movie, but the writers have done a good job in making sure there is not one answer for the whole show.
My other comment is not so much karl's theory as much as it is in his title for the thread. I think Ethan and the others are actually trying to get off the island. The process of how to get off the island requires a baby and other elements as well.

[Warthawg1]

I think this is a nice yarn. I don't think it is where the writers of LOST are going, but it is a good alternative story.

[STACHERSMOM]

I loved reading your theory but I had a comment and a question. I read somewhere that the bird that ran into the window was not the same species of bird that was in Walt's book. I also read that when Terry O'quin asked the producers what it is he sees when he looks up and sees the "monster" they said "it is the most beautiful thing you have ever seen".

[DerDualeRaum]

I think the military would have been stupid hiding the 'demon' on the island without monitoring it and with even installing a permanent transmission.

You assumed only military ships (knowing the code of the transmission) should come to the island (by accident). Why should that be? There are other ships on the oceans apart from US (!) military ships.
Considering this, it would be very disadvantageous to install this transmission, if you want to keep people off the island.

In addition the hatch is not locked from the outside. So it doesn't seem that something is imprisoned inside.

It would be easy for the US military to closly monitor the island by means of e.g. submarines. So if a ship (like the French one) would come near the island, the could 'persuade' them to leave. If they wouldn't agree they would just torpedo them. Remember it's the US military (no moral issues have to be considered).

In the case of a crashed plane some chemical bomb or something else could be thrown on the island to kill the people (so they cannot free the demon).

And most important:
There are NO such things as 'demons' (we and the authors of the show know that).

Apart from that, it's a nice theory :evil