+ Tying Philly and Disconnect(2nd season update)(still trying)

[joepa15425]

I know there are theories similar to this one out here. However, I feel it is basically different and it really doesn’t fit in a particular thread. I considered posting to a few but thought I might hijack them.

Where to begin? Pinnerman’s Philly Experiment and Chance’s Disconnect theory while entirely different may be some how linked. Bear with me, please.

First off:
I read an article in Discover magazine a few years ago, about a theory that time is not continuous but made up of single solitary moments, like snapshots. I’ve searched around the house trying to locate the article, I can’t find it. I’m sorry I can’t elaborate on that theory but the researcher at the heart of the article was winning over other scientists. Time is just snapshots of space time. We somehow string them together so time appears continous. Let’s assume this theory of time is correct.

Secondly:
What if when Marconi (or whoever actually invented the radio) only invented a transmitter. Or, let’s say Bell only ever made one telephone. Or, only one fax machine was ever invented. If this were true, all of these inventions would have been considered failures because there would be nobody on the other end to hear the transmission or receive the fax. I don’t know the hows and whys of Einstein’s or Hawkings’ theories for or against time travel, but now lets assume that time travel is possible but only to a point to where a receiving station was built. In other words, one could ask the question, if time travel were possible, then how come we aren’t visited by people from the future. The answer would be because, we don’t have a fax line. It would take two kinds of technology, one to receive and one to send.

Applying to LOST:

At some point a government or research institute concluded time travel is possible but you need a specific place and time to travel back. This would rule out going back to Egypt to see who built the pyramids, or to the time when dinosaurs existed. Just like you can’t send a fax to somebody who doesn’t have a fax machine, you can’t travel to a point in space and time where there is no receiving station. It would be entirely plausible to just have the know-how to build the receiving station, you could let future technologies determine how to send. In other words, some researchers theorize, you need XYZ in a yadda-yadda-yadda titanium tube and to this you can create a link from the future. They build the station on a remote island and wait for the future to catch up. If the researchers were correct in their calculations, the result could prove instantaneous because the future, however far it is, has a place now to go back to. I think, the hatch would be a perfect description for a time travel receiving station.

The Island:
If somebody from the future could travel to the island after the plane crash then they could also travel before the plane crash. The numbers could easily be explained by knowing that Hurley won the lottery with those numbers, and then the time travelers go back further and for whatever reason transmit them 16 years earlier. Or, they might want Hurley to win the lottery so they transmit them because they find a link to Hurley thru Sam. Ethan, could have come from the future, the whispers could be voices bleeding into the snapshot of the present inhabited by our lost-aways. The trees disappearing when the “monster” is about could be due to a changing landscape as the people from the future change the past, with maybe the cockpit, the drug plane, images of Jack’s father, the briefcase, or the caves-- the list goes on and on.

Connect:
I have no idea why people from the future would want them on the island, but it does appear they were all somehow connected before the plan crash. Maybe the plane crashes, people from the future find them, heal them or even go to the point just before the plan hits the ground, removes some of them, heals some of them (Locke), and scatters them on the ground so they will survive. Maybe then, they then go about tracing the survivors back to where they all originated from using whatever technology the future holds in store. Maybe it’s the people from the future who somehow caused some intertwining of the characters. I dunno. I had posted a theory ‘our heroes aren’t heroes’, asking why these characters were so flawed. Maybe, this links that theory too. Maybe they were chosen to live because they were so flawed. Maybe it's some kind of futuristic-altruistic experiment. Maybe that's why it has a purgatory like feel. I’m not advocating that, I really have no opinion on the why, I’m just offering some what-ifs.



Disconnect:

Well lets face it of course they would be disconnected as their lives exist snapshot by snapshot. Memory loss by Claire is simple to explain, as soon as Claire was kidnapped, whatever they did to her, they did. In the future it could take days or weeks. When they put her back on the island, they return her a week earlier, she doesn’t know anybody because she hasn’t experienced the snapshots they all did, she doesn’t remember Ethan because he doesn’t come along until later, only her snapshot is changed; the others weren’t affected, time continues for them. Therefore, they remember, but she can’t. If time travelers or people from the future can change the event in one or more snapshot, the rest just follow. It seems continous but it's not how time exists, so they literally are living in the moment.

Conclusion:
I could keep explaining island mysteries with this theory, but you get the general gist. I’ll leave it up to you guys to continue if you so choose.

[jaystao]

joepa15425 good to see you up and running on this space again. This is something I was thinking about once, ages ago but hadn't quite worked out. The fax line idea is interesting, I like how you've used the snap shot idea also. Time I think is important on the island and this opens all sorts of possibilities. I had a similar related idea about multiple world like phenomena, where in our world the 'experiment' was unsuccessful but in another alternate possibility it was. The island is phasing through various alternate worlds gaining 'time' in doing so and also dispensing and accumulating 'material'. But changing time is also very poetic and since theoretically they would be changing 'alternate' time lines they may also be 'playing God' without fear of retribution in away. I like how you connect it to disconnect and I'll be thinking about this one.

Could get really confusing though....

[joepa15425]

yeah it confused me posting it. If I remember in that Discover article, the snapshot theory allowed for multiple worlds. I wanted to add that, but I was already in over my head. I am not a scientist, I'll be setting up new banjos at work today. That's as close to string theory as I get.

[soup]

joepa, great job. I llove the time travel to a phone/fax analogy. I'd piggyback on your theory and say that maybe they found a way to get back, but once they strayed too far from the landing point, say, Black Rock, they lost tangiblity, or "phase", and have become the whispering voices. MMMM?

Perhaps the team in the future that sends people back in time is led by Walt and Claire's son?

[lacenaire]

Hi jays tao

Very interesting indeed.
I'd suggest you can further tie this theories with the assumption that the "receiver time travel device" works with some kind of electromagnetic power that explains the weird physical phenomena on the island.

I'm fuzzy about memories though. Even if Claire was transferred to the past, when she arrived she cannot be other than the same that was on the future and hence she should be able to remember (Just think Terminator or Back to the Future) what happened to her "in the future" unless her memory has been erased either intentionally or as a sideeffect of timetravel (This would be interesting, wouldn't it? -- This way if you come back from the future you wouldn't remember what is to come and be incapable of changing the course of events and this preserving the space-time continuum.)
But the problem is that the other time travellers don't have that problem, maybe it only affects humans that way?

If this "abduction" of Claire is true, maybe everyone who has flashbacks or visions have also been abducted and have those engraved in their minds by means of hypnosis, brain chips or using a VR matrix to generate them.

I like a lot this unifying efforts for we are about to learn some details in the season finale and I want to see (for fun) how good all this theories have done in predicting what happens.

Thanks again jaystao

[soup]

Rather than viewing the "others" as actual time travelers, perhaps there is a clue in John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness. In this classic, a container is unearthed that is eventually discovered to be the essence of an ancient being, AKA Satan. Scientists from a future where he was not stopped beam a message back to the past via tachyon particles.

Perhaps the island is the future sight of some research, and they have been able to shift certain things back in time: voices, an image (to Locke), and their first attempt at establishing a physical link, the hatch.

I know, this does not explain polar bears or the monster deal, and it's really sci-fi.

P.S. my search yielded nada. Any help?

I will also acknowledge someone may have mentioned Prince of Darkness in the past and I will now endeavor to search for it.

[thoughtform]

This is a good mixture of ideas. Unfortunately, I haven't had enough coffee yet this morning and my brain just turned to mashed potatoes after reading it. I agree with some, the rest I have to ponder over another couple of cups of coffee. I have a feeling that whatever is happening, it will include more than one of our ideas jumbled together. Whenever I really concentrate on time travel my brain just eventually goes poof and I can't think rationally anymore. Even the "Back to the Future" movie did that to me!

[joepa15425]

But the problem is that the other time travelers don't have that problem, maybe it only affects humans that way?

In my theory, the people from the future use the hatch to arrive at a single solitary point in time, as if the island freezes. From here they would be able to grasp a falling cup and place it back on the table. All the while time is moving on. A person thinks they dropped a cup, but in fact in the next instant with the help of our time travelers the cup is actually on the table, unbroken. The person who dropped it thinks nothing of it (or disconnects) because it doesn't fit in the continuum of space and time their minds create (linking the snapshots). In one instant it's there, in the next it's not there, but there it is again and there it stays in your memory of the past. This could explain why the trees seem to move when the castaways hear the unseen monster.
Did you see the post in the basement where somebody posted jumbled words but you could read it because the first two letters were the same. Your mind compensates the jumble into what you understand.

Claire is taken. Then she is brought back to the day of the plane crash or thereabouts, only she's put elsewhere on the island, and while time moves on with claire missing for charlie and the others, claire is back to when the plane crashed and she doesn't remember because once she went back her snapshots start over. For her, the cup was moved back, for the others, it still fell.

[lacenaire]

Ok so instead of a mnemonic continuum we have a snaphot memory and travelling through time affects the snapshots...

Why do the people that control the time machine and travel through time don't experience that same effect?

[drabauer]

Love your ideas joepa, but I've got to say one thing. I don't think we need to posit time-travel to STILL go far with these concepts. What is someone could manipulate the continuous series of evens without necessarily travelling back and forth in time?

I will agree that it handily explains Hurley's numbers, and the many connections between passengers. I just have an allergy to time travel sci-fi, because suspension of disbelief requires the audience to ignore so many variables.

There has not really been much discussion of invisibility in these forums, which I find strange. It is not as far-fetched to assume that the "monster" either reflects light or can only be seen outside of our visible spectrum. This would explain almost as much as time travel, without requiring too many twists and turns.

But I do like the discussion these ideas are generating!

[joepa15425]

What if someone could manipulate the continuous series of evens without necessarily travelling back and forth in time?

Sure why not. But I was trying to come up with a good explanation for the hatch, it seems to open from the inside, assuming there aren't people living inside it, then they are traveling to it from someplace else, i.e. the future, hence time travelers.

But it doesn't have to be people actually moving through space time, it could just be manipulation of past events.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Let me get really crazy here and go with one of my personal favorites...

Does it have to be time travel? Why can't it be traveling between dimensions? The whispers, the incredible changes the physical environment experiences and the disconnect of the characters could all be examples of phasing in and out between dimensions.

I've thought for a long time that the black rock would be where the phasing occurs. I haven't decided if the dimensional layers are mirror images of our own, or separate worlds altogether, but the hallucinations and strange dreams could be more real than we think if the dimensions are mirror images.

Ethan could have been a representative from Dimension B - perhaps looking for salvation for his own "future". There's a chance things in Dimension B aren't as rosy as those in Dimension A. Didn't someone say "Maybe they can help us"? There's both anticipation and a slight bit of fear in there - as though this phasing may have happened in a purely accidental way and they are as baffled by it as our castaways are.

That could be how the Philly ties in - an experiment with consequences that opened a gateway between dimensions.

Just tossing it out for consideration.

[yung23]

joe, brilliant thinking.

but time travel, I can't beleive you went there....

wow, we could literally poke holes and support this idea forever...

I can't even think of where to start though.

I really like your explaination of Claires memory loss, could we put it to charlie as well though...

& Why would Ethan kill him ?
if he was from the future he would have known he was going to get killed himself as a result...

man, thats an awesome movie all on its own.

but time travel is so cliche' and risky, paradox's etc...

the public could never rationalize it.
we can try of course... but c'mon our poor public.

dem's laymen !

[joepa15425]

could we put it to Charlie as well though...

& Why would Ethan kill him ?

That's easy, I think.

Everybody is out looking for Claire and Charlie. Ethan gives jack his warning, to no avail. All the while, time is moving on. Ethan hangs Charlie. Jack arrives. Charlie dies. Jack does his CPR thing. Kate tells him to stop. Jack does more CPR, then, does more CPR. Now here's the theory in a nutshell. Go back to when Charlie is first hung before Jack finds him. Take him down, and then go to the point where Jack is doing his second go round with CPR and bam, Charlie is back from the dead from the point of his hanging and naturally remembers nothing else.

I mean, this works for the pilot as well, he could have been put in the cockpit (alive now) just before J & K & C arrive. Later, the pilot is removed from the original crash (dead) and placed in the trees, his monster-like injuries, just a result of the crash. Or that's where he was all along, but in J&K&C memory he was just alive a few moments ago. The next time they see the pilot, they fill in the time line and assume he was just killed. What are the chances the pilot ever survives a plane crash? Or really anybody for that matter. We've debated this point from the get-go.

It's not like I take this theory to bed with me every night, but it sure can explain a lot, time travel not withstanding.

One more point. What better place to test time travel and the consequences of it than a remote uninhabited island? Might explain why animals, unusual animals who could never have evolved there, are present, might explain why nobody ever gets off. This could be just the test subjects needed to expand their program. I would think with paradoxes and all that other stuff, this would be a very un-ethical, immoral, and dangerous field of research.

From an ethics standpoint, the people were going to die anyhow (most passengers do when planes break up in mid-air), so instead of just watching the effects of time travel on trees, fauna, and polar bears, now researchers from the future can study humans as well. Maybe that's why the choose such flawed humans to study or why they choose the ones they did. For example, a doctor, a carpenter, and a hunter would be useful, and the others you could say were chosen because their lives up to now were more or less spent using others as they saw fit. This is a way for them to do some good for humanity, like an executed prisoner donating his body to science or something like that.

A stretch most likely, but i'm just offering more what-ifs.

[NeillT006]

From an ethics standpoint, the people were going to die anyhow (most passengers do when planes break up in mid-air),

This tickled a memory.

Google turned up this.

Millennium (http://sqn.com/millennium.html)

I also remember the short story on which it was based.

Neill

[igottroubleslord]

Are you saying, the flashbacks could be experiments to see if given a chance to do things differently the survivors could change outcomes or their fates? And the result is they either can't or don't.

[soup]

OK, I was pissed noone took my John Carpenter references seriously, but rather than start a new thread, I will accentuate this one with ideas from two Carpenter movies: the aforementioned Prince of Darkness and They Live
Prince of Darkness
The reason why everone's dreams are coming true is they are messages sent back by a potential future self. This is why Locke puts his mother and Boone's broken figure in his own dream. He was trying to warn himself about something his mother did, and tried to warn himself to prevent Boone's death. I'm sure Locke isn't happy about Boone's demise, and a future self may have severe guilt over what happened. In Prince of Darkness, alternate-future scientists send messages back via tachyon transmissions that people only see when they are dreaming. Who else saw stuff in their dreams? Jack saw his dad. Maybe he was trying to correct his own attitude regarding his dad from the future. Maybe Claire was trying to warn herself about Locke's apparent kindness with the baby crib and the blood was a warning not to trust Locke. I mean, the dreams are coming way too close to reality and seem to hit the dreamers right where they live, no?
The whispering voices could also be a form of communication from a different time, less recognizeable without the visuals one sees in a dream.

They Live
Ok, a pretty goofy movie, although Roddy Piper's wrestling scene was forever immortalized on South Park. The premise here is that aliens had infested our planet and used TV signals to numb us to their subliminal messages and help disguise their looks to us. When our heroes found the special glasses, they could see the aliens for who they really were and blew up the transmission station where the signal originated.
What is the message playing at the tower has something to do with keeping the Lostaways and Others content to stay on the island, content to sit put when there is an apparent monster walking the island?

If these dreams are really messages from the future, which I am more sure of than the latter point, they are originating from somewhere on that island, possibly the tower, or inside the hatch. It would have to be some type of future, alien, or experimental/mystical technology to pull that off, so if you're not a believer in that stuff for this show, well, good night.

[gabbypete]

I still think the story has to do with The Hatch and the Cable and everyone's flashbacks is just the writers way of giving us some insight to each character and to build a stronger bond. I think we will refocus on the Hatch in the future......

[drabauer]

Jeff, I'm glad that you brought up John Carpenter. I never saw Darkness, but They Live had some stinging social satire for its time, and I've got to believe the Wachowski borthers were influenced by it in the Matrix (the Joe Pantolioni Judas character is straight out of They Live).

Since we're on the topic, does anyone want to speculate about David Cronenberg's films? He did do a great guest spot on Alias, and his best films are obsessed with the confluence of technology and human will/desire.

[hg]

It's early and I'm half asleep, but didn't the writers say early on that the mystery does not involve time travel?

[elric]

Whatever you do, don't watch the movie Millenium - it's as bad as they come (and quite confusing).

With that said, the book by John Varley is amazing and should be read by any fan of time travel. For those of you that subscribe that LOST has components that can be explained by time travel, READ THIS BOOK. It's a quick read and will give you ideas on how to fill in many missing pieces if you believe in TT.

[She Walks In Beauty]

Nicely Done

[yung23]

bumping to top.

I think this is on to something...

hey joe, you did a good job explaining so far.

do danielle and the killling of her teammates.
please.

i can't stop thinking about this theory, its dead on.
no time travel my ass.

[joepa15425]

Thanks Yung


It's hard tying this theory to Danielle. Mostly because we know so very little about her and even less about her team. I hesitate to fill in too many gaps and with them, it's probably a few shows, if not a whole season.

But based on what we already know about Danielle and the science team, I would guess they stumbled upon the laboratory itself. Perhaps through documents or other means, they learned what the future holds in store. Maybe that's why Danielle (explaining why she killed them) said to Sayid something to the effect, "what would have happened if they got off the island".

I don't think Danielle is crazy or a homicidal maniac. I still believe that Danielle killed her compatriots for some far greater good. Thus far, most of the lost-aways, seem capable of killing, she shares that trait with them. Take it from me. Not everybody is capable of taking a life, even when their own life is in jeopardy. We all think we could and would, but it's not that easy. That's why the military trains its soldiers to disconnect when in a combat situation. Training is mechanical--target, aim, shoot, repeat-- not oh there's a person over there, kill him (anyhow I digress).

She talks about a sickness, but maybe the sickness was knowing the future. It's a stretch, I know. As for Alex, here's a what if. What if the future isn't what it's all cracked up to be. Not only that, who's to say that everybody with a stake in the island is coming from the same time in the future. Maybe in a hundred years things stay pretty much the same, maybe in 500 years, children have become a commodity for whatever reason. Maybe that's why the need for Alex, and Claire's baby.

I just don't know. There just isn't enough info or maybe I'm completely off the mark.

[yung23]

okay, cool, once again it holds water.

Now, What if, the children are the ones who eventually learn how to use the " receiver "? and it's their future selves making sure things go right, Saving Charlie because of his importance to the survival of Claires baby ?


wow, cool again.

[joepa15425]

WHOA!!!!!
I never thought of that before, I suppose the possibilities are endless.

[yung23]

yeah, I can't stop thinking about this idea now.

good going man.

it may not be the children, it may be their childrens children even.. who knows how long it will go on for...


Maybe in the future the world is gone like in 12 monkeys, so the grandchildren still isolated on the island must eventually figure out our time receiver, and start using it to fix things, using our current survivors as tools....

time to start poking holes joe... stilll on your side, but anyway...

Neck burns on Charlie... still there right ? If they re-arranged the timeline, depositing Charlie before his hanging there would be none....

no wait... you said just AFTER the initial hanging.. perhaps to the point JUST before his death.. wow, it still works here...

But the pilot... you lost me there...

lets keep going with this...
just for fun. even I have my doubts as I strongly lean toward the alien/ entity/ mental power being etc ideas...

however still bumping this for time travel searchers...
MODS.maybe rename this thread, so "future" and Time Travel searching posters can connect to it...

if Joe permits..

[JacksGirlfriend]

If Joe wants it renamed, Yung, all he has to do is edit his first post and the new name will show up on the board.

I'm glad you guys are having fun.

[soup]

Now, What if, the children are the ones who eventually learn how to use the " receiver "? and it's their future selves making sure things go right, Saving Charlie because of his importance to the survival of Claires baby ?

Not to be petty, I thought I mentioned that on page one. Well, that is petty, isn't it?

Man, I love the direction of this theory. Almost similiar to Terminator, getting sent back to save John Conner.

I think there might be time travel or some type of "phasing," happening here. The island keeps reappearing at different points around the globe, picking up various passengers along the way: polar bears, Nigerian-based airplanes, Oceanic Airlines flights, mystery monsters, etc.
(I think someone else smart said this before)
edited to give proper credit

It's nice to see some people still working on theories with some thought.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I think there might be time travel or some type of "phasing," happening here. The island keeps reappearing at different points around the globe, picking up various passengers along the way: polar bears, Nigerian-based airplanes, Oceanic Airlines flights, mystery monsters, etc.

This was one of my first theories from the very beginning. Why do you think I'm fixated on Vikings and Pirates?

[soup]

I knew that was a smart theory.
Sorry for inadvertantly stealing or reprinting said copyrighted material.:b

[yung23]

same here. it's hard not to.
we all watch the same program, and I think it takes a certain type of person to sit here on this board, so not only are we similar because of lost, we are similar in our quests for info and ideas...

so in other words, great minds think alike.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Sorry for inadvertantly stealing or reprinting said copyrighted material.

Wasn't accusing you of stealing, Jeff. Just letting you know I'm not as dumb as you might think. There was a time when I used to hang here regularly. Unfortunately it was so long ago that the vast majority of everything I ever thought is already in the archives. Sad but true.

[soup]

JG, it's cool. My sarcasm meter is always on mid- to high.
Just like to give great thought credit when due, especially when I've been too lazy to double check previous posts, which is often.
Yung, I think what you are saying is we all share an inherent tendency to geekness? Closet nerddom? I concur, if so.

http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/images_movie/revengenerds_2.jpg

remember who got the girl in the end.....

[NIB]

What if what they are experiencing is related to time, but not time travel, rather it is some sort of dimensional phase that got out of whack, like Jg and others believed.

What if the conventional references of time does not exist on this island , time stood still. It abruptly halted at one single instance just beofre everyone blacked out. That’s why they are all disconnected and experiencing the flashbacks/voices from the past while experiencing the present and the future at the same time ( if the hatch is from the future ).

Noticed how Locke’s leg began to lose function as he and Boone got closer to the smuggler’s plane, closer to the “past”, he lost the use of his legs before the crash, then regained the functions on the island, but as they got closer to the past (assuming the smugglers’ plane had crashed in the castaway’s past timeline ) he is physically reverting to the condition of the past. Also in his dreams, there contained all the elements of past, present and future. All 3 reference points are locked in one single instance. The voice that responded to Boone’s transmission sounded very surprised ( I wish I can remember the exact words they exchanged ).. is because Boone is talking to the future? or is he talking to the past?

What if, Ethen end up on the island AFTER the plane had crashed. Danielle was surprised it really has been 16 years, but maybe the castaways have been there longer than that. Each of the group that’s on the island …their time of origin might be sequential as we see it ( 16 years ago, present day.. future? ).but the TIME they arrived on the island may not be.

[NIB]

Another thought,

What if the transmission that was picked up by the Australian listening post ( presumably broadcasted from the Black rock on the island ) was from the plane crash survivors after they have figured out the numbers and constructed the structure with the hatch and the transmission equipment. Everything comes full circle, folded, crisscrossed and in a loop; like a ball… talking about time. “It will come back around”.. isn’t that what Sawyer heard? The voices are their own voices lingering from both the past and the future. They ARE the "others". Their otherselves is currently on the island, was already there before Danielle's boat, since Danielle never saw them, she wouldn't recognize Sayied. Danielle's people found the black rock, met the "other survivors" who took their equipment to make the transmission equipment to broadcast the numbers and tried to explain what is happening about time, but Danielle couldn't accept this crazy talk and kill them all, thinking they have been infected. Locke saw the "monster" , whatever it is, and being a super smart guy that he is, he rationalized and realized what is going on right away. Maybe not totally, but enough to guide the others. Was it himself? or was it somehting from Walt's comic book, that's ridiculously surreal that he knew the island experience is not "real". There is a giant robot thing in the comic book, right?

What if Ethen is Claire's baby? someone said the location of the hatch and the structure had changed. Maybe they have experienced the crash more than once, and each time they adjust their actions slightly, without knowing that they ahve done this before… is that why Ethen did not harm Claire’s baby? Danielle and her people picked up the survivor's
distress call or signal which Hurely heard from the guy in the nut house, which was form the listening station, which is on the hatch. Maybe the survivors found a way to broadcast the numbers becasue they have no lue and the numbers aare the only thing they've got on the island, which is then picked up by their past and in circles we go...

Remember how Lock was trying to teach Walt how to throw the knife? he told him to visualize then throw. After Walt hit the bulleye , he said he actually saw it happened before he threw. Could Walt visualize opening the hatch then? as Locke visualized a light coming on.. well he was thinkiin hard there at least...

Sorry if all these questions have been discussed before… but I got plenty more if they have not or if they are a little different.


Man this is more addicting than my xbox or ps2....

[NIB]

O.k. I got it!!... Past , present, and future is happening on different part of the island.

Locke's leg began to fail as they got close to the smuggler's plane, becasue the plane is an artifact from their past timeline.

hmm.. to tired to try explain the other things... maybe I don't got it.

Where's everyone at? help me out here. Hopefully someone can tell me how off and stupid my theory is after I come back from a session of Gran Turismo 4.

[NIB]

.k. this is a very crude theory that I am working on, maybe you guys can help me finish it or tell me to shut up, go back to my xbox and PS2 and not to come back here anymore. 8o

1. The survivors crashed on the island in present timeline. There are no other intelligent beings on this island, except boars… maybe. They couldn’t find a way to get off the island, so they all lay out on the beach waiting for rescue and enjoying their long vacation. They seek shelter and constructed the cave.
2. There must be another group that will also crash on the island from the future timeline, which will have slightly more advanced technology and equipment. This future group wrecked in the Ocean. Maybe a rescue team searching for them?!? The survivors salvaged the crashed equipment from this group and constructed transmission equipment near or on the black rock. They use the “numbers” that has significance to them ( flight number? Seat number? ) because somehow this island is being blocked by some geological anomaly and would not allow complicated transmission. Using the power source from the wreckage that crashed in the ocean , the cable from the beach. Then monsters and polar bears began to show up ( see #5). They constructed the structure with the hatch the and live in it underground to avoid hostiles. Adam and Eve decided not to go with others underground and stay in the caves so they can have more privacy and be the look out for future rescue attempts ( Charlie and Claire? The “others” took the baby with them into the structure, because the baby would have a better chance inside the structure than on the surface.
3. Danielle and her group picked up the signal, just as the listening post in Australia did. They explored the island , map it and all that and found it strange that the island has signs of being inhabited, including the transmission equipment from the survivors from #2 but found no one…except voices. Danielle stayed behind while others continue their little adventure one day, and they met the other survivors, which from time to time will surface to check on things and to layout on the beach, maybe gather some more plants to make some of those “Locke’s special”. When Danielle’s group returned to the camp site, Danielle thought her people had gone insane. and killed them all. ( Classic MetallicA rocks!! ) but before she did, they gave “Alex” to the “others” because , he/she will have a better chance of survival inside the structure, same reasoning as Claire’s baby. And the structure can only house certain number of people.
4. The smugglers crashed. Don’t know how to tie this group up yet, but so far in the story line there are not much to go on, except when Boone was using the radio on the smuggler’s plane he might be talking to the “survivors” inside the structure, and when they heard Locke banging on the door , they put 2 + 2 together and figure another group is here on the island again. They turned on the light.
5. “our” survivors crashed on the island. Walt being a special boy, and seems to be able to manifest things out of his mind when under extreme stress ( his mother ignoring him talking about the birds in the book, because she’s dying and the plane crash), introduced the polar bears and monsters to the island. Ethen came out of the structure, or he is the only one left from the original crash, see the plane crash , blend in with the survivors, and pi##ed at Claire for abandoned him.. And you know the rest…

this is asasuming that you agree with the time anomaly thing...

[yung23]

whoa, take a breather. all your cylinders are firing here.
welcome to the boards, but try to contain/ explain one theory when responding to a thread...

I can't follow, sorry.

it's too much info to respond to.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Yeah - it's 12:45 a.m. I'll read it later. Sorry. I want to sound more coherent than you do.

[joepa15425]

I just had my forty winks and I still need more time to digest.
I have no problem changing the name of the post, but this theory grew from me thinking about pinnerman's and chance's posts. What do you guys think? Should it have a more generalized name?
JG Said:
Why do you think I'm fixated on Vikings and Pirates?

I thought it was for the rape, pillage,& plunder.:D

[JacksGirlfriend]

Yes, Joe, exactly, plus the outfits are HOT.

[joepa15425]

plus the outfits are HOT

I don't know, I can't quite get comfortable with a girl who wears an eye-patch. Try as I might, I'm always fixated on the patched eye. I do like girls with peg-legs, they have a hard time scurrying off in the morning.

[yung23]

hey joe...

still going...

if Claire was placed back on the island (after Ethan had done his thing) at the point you say, just after the initial crash, then yes she would not know anyone, but she would not have remembered PEANUT BUTTER...

Unless they deposited her (still not clear on this either) at the same time she was with charlie "eating" peanut butter from a jar...

please explain the depositing... this is me trying...
they aim the timemachine for the moment when shes on the beach with charlie, time freezes, they take her from this timeline.. and travel forward to the time when she escapes from ethan and reappears in the jungle... what happens to that claire ? is it done mentally (just her mind)? can only one exist in each timeline ?....

I can't do it.

please keep going with this, I'll help you along when I can.
I'm good that way, I like to brainstorm, it's always raining in my head...

hey, i just remembered that's a song !

by who... ?

[yung23]

reading my own post made me zone in on something....

Why did she remember just the peanut butter ?
hmmm..
maybe because it never existed, her eyes never saw it, her minds eye may have been trying to play along, but her brain never really saw it.

Now, if our ENTITY (demons/aliens/gods) has the ability to "read" ones mind, then erase it.. it never "read" peanut butter... so it couldn't erase it.
??


I bet this is how the whole thing ends... just like in a wrinlke in time ends with the girl using love to beat evil....

someone, is going to realize their imagination is the most important thing..

whatever this thing is, it must have no imagination, otherwise it would have mentally built an escape for itself.. It can alter matter right ? maybe ?

you know what, i'll do what someone suggested, I'll put it all together in my own theory, once and for all.

So far, I seem to just feed others.

[joepa15425]

The Claire drama is interesting. Her dream or feeling of being injected could be her remembering something she shouldn't remember, like something that happened to her already, or something that was going to happen (in other words, her future snapshots were being taken of what she was dreaming). Charlie says, "they only wanted Claire", I take this to mean he was "put back". Then later after Claire returns, an angry, somewhat disheveled, and bloodied Ethan returns very determined, saying, he wants Claire back. Could it be Claire was "saved" by "the Others" from Ethan. Then to undo whatever Ethan did to Claire, they returned her, to say, a week earlier, or long enough so that whatever happened is undone, and as a result, she doesn't remember anybody.

[yung23]

did you notice the narrator say... " and you find you have..time, you never had before..."
(he pauses.)

[lacenaire]

Yung, hi

I noticed it. And it also striked me that he said it about Michael who said:

... which is ridiculous since time doesn't matter on a damn island!

[JacksGirlfriend]

Please don't make me start thinking about time loops again. I almost had a nervous breakdown last time. The only thing that saved me was Brigadoon (thank you Railway).

[Chance Gardener]

Pulled up

[thoughtform]

Hey all, I have a time related question for those who can wrap their brain around time travel. If you were to go through a location where there was a natural alteration of time/space, say a vortex caused by the crossing of energies (earth grid pionts, ley lines) , bringing you to an alternate time or dimension, would physical changes occur in those who went through? Say you entered the vortex and came through in the distant past, and had in the recent past become paralyzed, would you remain paralyzed if you're now in a time period before your injury? As far as I know the way most would explain this would be, yes, you remain paralyzed.

I do think that there could be some physical changes after going through, but that they would be due to having been exposed to altered or different frequencies or energies. Like in the Philly ex., some of the men came back like Lenny in the psych ward. I feel that this might explain some of the odd behavior we see in the lostaways since the crash.

Anyway, if anyone could offer their thoughts on this subject, I would appreciate it. I'm trying to put together an explanation for a few things that have happened on the show.

[drabauer]

I need coffee before I respond to that.

[boonian androphile]

Are you saying the a time vortex is merely a door through which one travels status quo from one time to another? More on this after my coffee!

[thoughtform]

No, what I am trying to say is that the plane may have flown through an area where there was a vortex and that they are now in an alternate time or dimension. But my question has to do with mental or physical effects of the transfer.

Remember when Danielle is recalling the way that she ended up on the island. She mentions the night, a storm, and then she says, "the sounds". The sounds were before her ship was wrecked. I think that the sounds may have been what the team heard when they entered the vortex or portal. I also think it may be possible to explain the sickness as a circumstance of the different time/space they entered, and may explain why Lenny is in a psych ward. Waiting to find out more about him.

[Warthawg1]

Well now that's one of those big mysteries surrounding speculation about time travel. I'll put it right up there with the one about if you went back in time, and altered the future in such a manner to prevent the discovery of time travel, would your trip then never take place?

As I understand the question, the only answer would be a multitude of different realities existing with commonality between the inhabitants of both. The Back to the Future answer to your question would be that you would exist in the past in the same manner in which you left the present. Any other option would of course make time travel backwards to a date before your birth a bit troublesome.

For example, I would hate to time travel back to a night in Feb 1963, and emerge from my time machine as sperm.

[LostInWilderness]

Since this is fantasy, I'd say anything goes.

[thoughtform]

For example, I would hate to time travel back to a night in Feb 1963, and emerge from my time machine as sperm.

I agree with you hawg, and I think that in order to explain Locke's paralysis we would have to decide between the idea of a miraculous, supernatural healing or the possibility of it being the effect of higher dimensional frequencies or vibrations at work on the island.

[Warthawg1]

Absolutely unless you want to go the "it's all in their heads" route.

[thoughtform]

The idea of dimensional travel could also explain how the island is so full of things that don't seem to belong there. Aside from the polar bear, it could have allowed beings of an unfamiliar dimension in too. The strange security system, aka monster, may be from another time/space. And if the disembodied whispers are not from the lostaway's conscious, they may be explained as beings of a different dimensionality who are not of a vibration the lostaway's are familiar with and would seem invisible.

[drabauer]

You know thoughtform, I always wondered why this topic thread (archived below in time and its vicissitudes (http://www.swedishpoet.com/caves/the_caves_147.html) at the Caves) didn't get more play.

Maybe you can review what's been said and add more here.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I vaguely remember something about aging in time travel - and I think it was opposite of what you suggest, thoughform. More like, the traveler picks up a little bit of age... minutes, or a couple years. Wheras, to the time travelor when he returns to earth, earth has changed a lot, as well as everyone else on it.

What does Einstein say about this?

Or Star Trek,

Or that movie with Jodie Foster?

[LostInWilderness]

If you travel close to the speed of light, time slows down for you. When you return home you have aged very little, but everyone at home has aged a lot.

This just to answer the question of what does Einstein say about time travel.

[thoughtform]

Yes, but these don't occur if you consider time travel as possible from a multiverse or multiple worlds theory. If our lostaways have passed through a portal to another dimension or worldline, they will not be able to return to the exact worldline from which they came. They would only be able to live on a similar worldline, one that seemed close to the original, but isn't. BTW, I also read that it is easier to gain entry to vorticular and portal doorways on soltices and equinoxes, due to the way certain energies enter into our planetary area from space.

[clayseason1]

thoughtform
BTW, I also read that it is easier to gain entry to vorticular and portal doorways on soltices and equinoxes, due to the way certain energies enter into our planetary area from space.
Do you have a link to this information?
It is a plus for my expanded Wrinkle in Time theory.
Wrinkle in Time (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=2272.topic)

[thoughtform]

CS, I just wanted to let you know that I will come back and post a link when I find it.:)

I mention the equinoxes and solstices as times when it is easier for different energies to enter into our planetary arena because it is well known that these occasions were of great importance to many peoples all over the globe. The ancients seemed to be more aware of these energies than we moderners are. So you may be able to find a lot of info if you do a google search using something like- vortex or portal openings due to equinox or solstice. Unfortunately, you then have to wade through a heap of what you're not looking for, in hopes you will find something of interest.

I'm sure that I will get a chance tomorrow to pin down an exact location for the info.

[clayseason1]

thoughform
I agree with you hawg, and I think that in order to explain Locke's paralysis we would have to decide between the idea of a miraculous, supernatural healing or the possibility of it being the effect of higher dimensional frequencies or vibrations at work on the island.

Not necessarily…I mentioned this in another thread and so far it hasn’t been discussed, so I’ll mention it here and try to explain it a little better.

Let’s say there are two realities – the reality world that you and I are familiar with and an alternate mirror reality world – each containing the same people and places - but in the mirror reality the east/west is reversed. Now there may be small differences in the people because of choices made. For example: maybe the Locke in the alternate reality is not paralyzed because he made a different choice and whatever paralyzed our Locke didn’t happen to that Locke.

In each world a plane takes off from Sydney flying to LA at the same time.

Because the conditions are right, the two planes merge in a shared time/space and the now one plane crashes on the island. The two sets of people also merge – perhaps the dominant personality slides into the dominant “body”. (Similar to Dr Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap.)

Such a scenario would explain:
Locke walking
Sayid’s friend Nadia being dead - as he has said (while in the other reality he was on his way to see her)
Daylight showing through the windows during the crash, when it should have been nighttime.
Michael talking to Susan in August around Walt’s birthday and yet the weather is just the opposite of what you would expect.

There are perhaps many more examples, I have just begun to look.

[boonian androphile]

but if east and west are reversed why wouldnt the mirrored plane be flying from LA to Sydney? or does the "event" have to happen because the occupation of the same time and space must be absolute?

[clayseason1]

but if east and west are reversed why wouldnt the mirrored plane be flying from LA to Sydney? or does the "event" have to happen because the occupation of the same time and space must be absolute?

I don't think the mirrored plane would be flying from LA to Sydney because although opposite - it's not mirrored.
Now you know me - yes, the occupation of the same time and space must be absolute (or nearly so) and yes the point in common that I think it is - is the equator and international date line. (If I can find the right graphic - I'll illustrate it later tonight when I have more time.)

eta: illustration - this is as close as I could get to the actual view.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/mirroredalternaterealities.jpg

[boonian androphile]

Interestingly enough the two mirror globes resemble a horizontal 8. Something for those crazy writers to look at. Also in this shot both Australias resemble dogs.

:smokin :hat we agree

[clayseason1]

Interestingly enough the two mirror globes resemble a horizontal 8. Something for those crazy writers to look at. Also in this shot both Australias resemble dogs.

You really know how to do an illustration justice boonian :p :D

[boonian androphile]

Sorry for the humorous aside. I couldn't resist. In truth, the illustration does enhance your explanation. No offense on the cartography commentary. :D

[clayseason1]

Sorry for the humorous aside. I couldn't resist. In truth, the illustration does enhance your explanation. No offense on the cartography commentary.

no offense taken - I'm still laughing - it was funny. :D

[joepa15425]

You really know how to do an illustration justice boonian

LOL!!!

Good job clayseason, I like your theory very much.

[clayseason1]

Thanks joepa15425

I don't know if it's a theory just yet, but it's definitely something I'm looking at. I may have just found another piece of the puzzle. Read the whole thread. :D reppiD giB ehT (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm43.showMes sage?topicID=240.topic)

[yung23]

it stops pretty quick, is there more ?

[clayseason1]

it stops pretty quick, is there more ?

Do you mean the thread on the big dipper?8o

[thoughtform]

Just wanted to add an interesting link that is mostly about the Montauk Project. Really strange stuff, but includes much about time warp, mind control, frequencies. The reading can be a little thick as there is interdimensional physics related reading. Anyway, if you like this kind of stuff you'll find it to be revealing.

www.umf.net/umf/data/text/MONTAUK.TXT (http://www.umf.net/umf/data/text/MONTAUK.TXT)

[bigmouth]

Just to second thoughtform's emotion, the Montauk link also describes a psychic radio transmitter that the author tracks, as well as an experiment that unleashes a terrible monster. Sure sounds familiar to me...

[thoughtform]

awsecond, did you read the part that mentions the Pallotine group? It said that they are a monastic group of the Roman Catholic Church that works with the government by setting up organizations to help children in need. However, besides providing children with daycare and social services, the article says that they abduct children in order to train them as a mind controlled elite fighting force. I thought mostly about Locke and Charlie when I read that.

Danielle has an area on her map that talks about strange lights or orange lights or something along those lines. I came across a few different articles that mention anomalous orbs or lights that occur because of electromagnetic field effects.

So far a lot of strange things on this island can be explained by alternate dimension theory or the island being exposed to some testing of scalar em weapons or philly type experiments. It can affect weather, cause strange sounds and noises including a loud "whine", physical effects, mental effects, possible psychic abilities, strange lights, strange animals on the island and stobors.

The Montauk Project involved a chair that they used to travel through time/dimensions. The chair wasn't made for just anyone to use though. It was used by someone with "special abilities". I am also curious to find out if the hatch leads to one level or if there is more than one level to the underground facility.

Also the use of scalar weapons (EM particle beams) could bring down a plane in the manner of 815.

This is off topic a little, but does anyone remember TWA flight 800 that crashed in the Atlantic ocean off of Long Island? Some people believe that the plane was accidently hit with a scalar em weapon that was being tested at Montauk. All of the tests at Montauk are taking place in subterranean facilities beneath what is now NY state parkland. And after the military closed the base, you would think that they would be sure to shut off power to it, right? Well, power is still being used there somewhere even though it has been verified that no one is supplying the base with it. Lines have been cut and panels have been destroyed, yet power is still flowing in from an unknown source. It is also said that there has been a schizm in the group conducting the experiments and that one side has changed it's mind and is now trying to destroy the work it was previously involved with.

[jaystao]

The Mountauk chair sounds a bit like 'the chair' in Terry Pratchet's novel "Strata". In this book future man is able to construct worlds to his own liking, including there own individual histories. A group of mismatched space adventurers are lured to a fake 'earth' far out in the depths off space. This earth is just like our own, millenia ago but with everything that human fantasy imagined which means that it is flat like in indo-aryan/midieval mythology, filled with magical items, trolls and dragons. Including a range off popular historical/mythical characters.


spoiler to book.








The truth is that the flat earth is actually a testament to the creaters off the galaxy. A race off intelligent designers who created the flat earth as a tell tale sign off their 'work'. A bit like placing a prehistoric wrist watch on a dinosaur bone. However the magical nature off the earth is just high tech, and its mechanics are breaking down. The 'angels and demons' who police the earth are now simply kidnapping random indigeonous inhabitants and placing them in 'the chair' - which is the 'orchestrator' of the planet who tells them 'the computers' what to do.

The adventurers have thus been lured to the planet because the mechanics are breaking down and they need their modern advanced mentality to operate the chair. The book is a lot off fun espeacially in the mix off high science and magic, where the adventurers are frustrated by the illogical nature off things right up to their eventual ends journey to 'the hub'.

Anyway, like I said 'the chair' reminded me off this novel. So maybe the mechanics of the 'island' is falling apart and some one needs to come in and fix it.

This is the castaways as 'plumbers' theory.

[thoughtform]

Let me first say, "Good to have you back again Jays!" Everyone was worried about you.

As far as the Montauk Chair goes, I assume it is possible that there is something in the hatch which could be used as a weapon if the right person? was operating it. I think whatever it is, it must be dangerous or powerful to have this strange security system or people willing to kidnap other people in order to either operate it or destroy it.

Of course it could also be used to access other dimensions and must be operated by someone with "special" abilities.

[drabauer]

I think Jays "chair" theory might be the first one I've read in ages that seems to add something to the discussion here. One could see this fitting into Lost without relying on a plot directly lifted from Strata. Of course in that sense, it is similar to other theories that suggest the castaways have something that the island needs to survive or function properly, whether that something be the ability to control a machine (shades of recent Stargate, Farscape, and the genetic matching theory) or something else.

[bigmouth]

>>"The adventurers have thus been lured to the planet because the mechanics are breaking down and they need their modern advanced mentality to operate the chair."<<

Jays: Very interesting, especially since I get the sense the island is a dying paradise of sorts. To riff upon thoughtform's comment, I think it would be interesting if they found the Montauk chair down the hatch.

[lostmio]

CS: Let’s say there are two realities – the reality world that you and I are familiar with and an alternate mirror reality world – each containing the same people and places - but in the mirror reality the east/west is reversed. Now there may be small differences in the people because of choices made. For example: maybe the Locke in the alternate reality is not paralyzed because he made a different choice and whatever paralyzed our Locke didn’t happen to that Locke.


Parallel universes is my Lost favorite theory of all, esp. since leading physicists are increasingly accepting them as a logical, perhaps even invevitable element of string theory and quantam physics:
www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/parallelunitrans.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/parallelunitrans.shtml)
That's real science, imo, or at least mainstream scientific theory. The oft-referenced 'pseudo' science would be the mirror image part. I remember well the posts about the reverse big dipper and was intrigued but didn't know how to tie it into a bigger picture. Your theory does that handily.

I like it, and as Homer says in another thread, it beats the heck out of the tired old military/big business/govt. conspiracy theories.

You have a unique gift for creating visual representations of what could be unclear complex theories.


eta: respectable physicists have speculated that the different universes would/could reflect the results of different life choices.

[clayseason1]

Thank-you for the compliment biscuitmom. :)

I think "a picture is worth a thousand words" and it's easier for me to "draw" a picture than write a thousand words. lol

Parallel universes is my Lost favorite theory of all
I would agree with that. The link you provided is an excellent and relatively easy to understand explanation of some complex ideas. Thank you.

respectable physicists have speculated that the different universes would/could reflect the results of different life choices.

Have you come across (in your reading) any articles about different universes at different stages of development..i.e. different "time" eras?

[Warthawg1]

I often wonder if respectable physicists throw out pure speculation like we do about LOST.

If the alternate universe idea does indeed turn out to be a part of the solution, then I can't wait to see how they end up revealing that to us. In the real world, I don't put a lot of stock in the possibility of alternate realities, despite how intriguing it all sounds. This however isn't the real world, so it would work and make for some interesting TV.

[lostmio]

I often wonder if respectable physicists throw out pure speculation like we do about LOST.

Re quantum physics, string theory, and the inherent ramificatiions, such as parallel universes - not often.
The universe in those theories is so extraordinary that they freely admit they can barely conceive the close boundaries of reality, the ones we push against every day, much less speculate on the far ranges.

[Warthawg1]

Well yes, I know it does happen. The point I hoped to make was the purely speculative nature of where some of those notions go (parallel universes), much like many LOST theories.

[lostmio]

CS: Have you come across (in your reading) any articles about different universes at different stages of development..i.e. different "time" eras?

Time is the proposed 11th dimension of reality, and so many of today's physicists are grappling with it that I'm sure there's an abundance of reliable, scholarly, refereed articles published on it - probably hundreds. The trick is finding a readable one, most are written in physics-ese.

Brian Greene, a highly respected physicist, tackles the issue of time travel in his book The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality. He doesn't talk about different societies co-existing so much as different individual realities (a la einstein, for whom it was a pet theory). He treads into speculation of time travel via analogies, but bases it all on cutting-edge scientific theory.
The book is widely available - almost all libraries and bookstores carry it. I wouldn't call it an easy read but it's written for the lay person, and Greene writes well, in an entertaining style. I recommend it frequently and have never known anyone interested in the subject who didn't love it (I'm a librarian, by the way).
IMO, the notion of the Lost characters breaking into their own parallel realities would be a fictional scenario he'd enjoy...

A U.S. PBS Nova series was based on Greene's earlier book, The Elegant Universe, which deals primarily with string theory and also speculates on time travel based upon that theory. I didn't read the book but hung on every word of the telecast. Those videos are widely available too. Netflix probably has them.

eta: these links are off the BBC site, they look promising:
feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/ (http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/)
www.mkaku.org (http://www.mkaku.org)
fisica.usac.edu.gt/public/curccaf_proc/quevedo1/ (http://fisica.usac.edu.gt/public/curccaf_proc/quevedo1/)

[clayseason1]

Thanks Biscuitmom. I'll have to check out Greene's book next time I'm at the library.

the notion of the Lost characters breaking into their own parallel realities

You know I like this idea. It could explain a lot of LOST details. :p

[lostmio]

Wart:The point I hoped to make was the purely speculative nature of where some of those notions go (parallel universes), much like many LOST theories.

This may be a matter of semantics, but to equate parallel universe theory with LOST theories presented on this and other forums misses the mark.
At the risk of sounding repetitive - parallel universes are mainstream theory in contemporary physics.

And altho CS and I have ventured into the notion of time differences and I mentioned time travel, the issue at hand is really parallel universes. I know TPTB have discounted time travel "as such" as what's happening on the show. They have not commented on the notion of bleed-through parallel universes, or breaks in the infintestimally small brane separating the universes. That's science, or close enought to it, since it's based on current vetted published scholarly scientific theory.

Pseudo-science would be the cause & point of the breakthrough in LOST, which includes the 'mirroring' aspect about which CS speculates.
I like it if for no other reason than it explains that damned reversed constellation, which has been bugging me for months.
To date, the only theory or spec that includes that is the one provided by CS.
If you've got a spec or theory for it, put it out there. Truly, I'd love to hear it, as long as it's not "continuity error".

[equinox]

biscuitmom wrote:
it explains that damned reversed constellation, which has been bugging me for months
I find the idea interesting. I'd like to look at a picture of that constellation but I couldn't find it on Lost-media. I know that people have said it's near the end of "Special", but exactly which one of the characters is on screen at that instant? Do you know if there is a screen capture of that scene posted somewhere?

[Warthawg1]

It is a matter of semantics regarding how you define theory.

A theory can be based on provable facts, and is usually tested to be proved or disproved. A theory can also be purely speculative in nature with no current method of proving it or disproving it (Much like the Philly experiment theory about Lost) All I am saying is that the parallel universe theory fits the second definition moreso than the first.

[lostmio]

Austra: I'd like to look at a picture of that constellation but I couldn't find it on Lost-media. I know that people have said it's near the end of "Special", but exactly which one of the characters is on screen at that instant? Do you know if there is a screen capture of that scene posted somewhere?

Not a capture, but you can see & pause on it in the Special video clip on Lost-media, titled 1x14waltspresent.
It's at the very beginning of the clip, on the right side, before the cut to Walt & Michael.

[clayseason1]

Wart
I often wonder if respectable physicists throw out pure speculation like we do about LOST.
…only behind closed doors. :D

Seriously, every scientific theory is the end result of scientists proving through the laws of physics, a “pure speculation”.
A theory can be based on provable facts, and is usually tested to be proved or disproved. A theory can also be purely speculative in nature with no current method of proving it or disproving it (Much like the Philly experiment theory about Lost) All I am saying is that the parallel universe theory fits the second definition more so than the first.
We have the luxury in this forum to take a “piece” of scientific theory and spin it in into a sci-fi entertainment possibility.

Yes, the alternate – mirrored reality is purely speculative in nature. (I only mentioned it in this thread as the conversation developed. I would have started a new thread on it, if I had all the “details” worked out – which may not happen.) I will go so far to say that any theory I start will be purely speculative as I am not a physicist and could never prove a theory based on the laws of physics. But I think I understand enough of the concepts to extrapolate a science fiction vehicle for them.
If the alternate universe idea does indeed turn out to be a part of the solution, then I can't wait to see how they end up revealing that to us. In the real world, I don't put a lot of stock in the possibility of alternate realities, despite how intriguing it all sounds. This however isn't the real world, so it would work and make for some interesting TV.
Yes, I think the alternate reality concept makes for an extremely interesting program. The possibilities are endless. For example, the alternate reality may have it’s own laws of physics which may not be the same as ours in the “real” world. That could go a long way in explaining how the characters survived the plane crash.

[lostmio]

All I am saying is that the parallel universe theory fits the second definition moreso than the first.

The relativity, string, and M theories are theorized mathematically and constantly subjected to rigorous mathematical *proof*.
Altho mathematical proof is subject to revision, revisions re these particular theories has for decades been in the form of confirmation and expansion, not refute.

It's perfectly reasonable to propose either or both the PE and string (or M) theories as candidates for explaining the Lost island, since we're talking fiction.
Beyond that, I'm with Homer in that it's absurb to the point of blasphemy to equate the PE to anything near *valid* scientific speculation OR theory, semantics be damned.

eta: there have of course been actual physical experiments too that point to the existence of parallel universes. Possibly there are folks here who can summarize work done by Neils Bohr, Hugh Everett, et al in that regard.
In case not, here's one link:
library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html (http://library.thinkquest.org/3487/qp.html)
If you're an impatient reader, scroll down to "Many Worlds"

[lostmio]

CS: For example, the alternate reality may have it’s own laws of physics which may not be the same as ours in the “real” world. That could go a long way in explaining how the characters survived the plane crash.

Or, as M theory posits, all universes operate under the same laws of physics, however there are infinite outcomes. Maybe like Schrödinger's Cat, they're dead in one universe but alive in the one we're watching!
~and there's probably already a SC thread somewhere~

(I feel the need to explain here, for some people, that you and I are not saying we think either of these is THE theory, but just throwing out possibilities for fun. Yours is as good as mine, and neither is better than many others that have been posted.)

[clayseason1]

(I feel the need to explain here, for some people, that you and I are not saying we think either of these is THE theory, but just throwing out possibilities for fun. Yours is as good as mine, and neither is better than many others that have been posted.)

Absolutely!

Or, as M theory posits, all universes operate under the same laws of physics, however there are infinite outcomes.
Yes, and for our LOST situation - there are an seemingly infinite number of possibilites regarding survivors - from no one survived to a myriad of combinations of survivors - our LOST scenario is just one of those possible outcomes in which these particular characters survived.

Maybe like Schrödinger's Cat, they're dead in one universe but alive in the one we're watching!
~and there's probably already a SC thread somewhere~
There are several that make mention of Schrodinger's Cat (if that's the one in the box). I think Self-ProjectRealized had a thread on quantum physics (I think it's still active). Yes, here it is. (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1053.topic)
The cat in the closed box is neither alive nor dead until someone opens the box and views the possibility. The participant actually observing the subject makes it real.
I wonder if this is what Lenny meant when he told Hurley he opened the box?

eta: This also makes me wonder, who's reality did flight 815 slide into?

[I like to listen]

clayseason1,
Your quote reminded me of something I've been reading. Although there are several aboriginal threads, dreams.. etc in theories and speculation, I feel that it could also be of use to post it here as the context of the thread allows it.

For example, the alternate reality may have it’s own laws of physics which may not be the same as ours in the “real” world. That could go a long way in explaining how the characters survived the plane crash.

Lately there is a great discourse occuring concerning psudeo-science/science. I think that the most important thing concerning science and theories is what Einstein stressed, concerning the observer.. it is all relative betwween the observer and the observed. For instance black holes can be observed by their effects on the surrounding universe, not themselves. Nobody will every get a bucket full of black hole to observe. Yet, once black holes were theory, much as the flat earth was a belief. The solutions for string theory for example,will be discovered based on empirical observations of the theory to verify validity.

It may be a quandry to use hard science to justify the alternate reality theory. There was at one time a land of people in the U.S.A. as an example that had knowledge (not belief) of the alternate reality. Their knowledge was philosophically empirical not mathamaticly empirical. Mathamaticly I do not think it has been proved or disproved. Yet, who says that it has to ..it is all relative between the observer and the observed.. or made unrelative, hence never observed.(ie.. "who cares what savages believe!")

Think of One Who Beats the Hatch of the Lost tribe near Black Rock when you read the excerpt.

"For a long time Crazy Horse had been waiting for a chance to test himself in battle with the Bluecoats. In all the years since the Fetterman fight at Fort Phil Kearny, he had studied the soldiers and their ways of fighting. Each time he went into the Black Hills to seek visions, he had asked Wakantanka to give him secret powers so that he would know how to lead the Oglalas to victory if the white man ever came again to make war upon his people. Since the time of his youth, Crazy Horse had known that the world that men live in was only a shadow of the real world. To get into the real world, he had to dream, and when he was in the real world everything seemed to float or dance. In this real world his horse danced as if it were wild or crazy, and this was was why he called himself Crazy Horse. He had learned that if dreamed himself into the real world before going into a fight, he could endure anything."

- page 276, softcover-Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee-by Dee Brown


p.s. If nothing else, it explains how Crazy Horse got his name.

[lostmio]

It may be a quandry to use hard science to justify the alternate reality theory. There was at one time a land of people in the U.S.A. as an example that had knowledge (not belief) of the alternate reality. Their knowledge was philosophically empirical not mathamaticly empirical. Mathamaticly I do not think it has been proved or disproved. Yet, who says that it has to ..it is all relative between the observer and the observed.. or made unrelative, hence never observed.(ie.. "who cares what savages believe!&quot;)

It's M, or super string, theory that's subject to mathematical proof. Alternate universes would be a natural ("inevitable" is the word used by some physicists) consequence rising from that theory.

Reading the above I was thinking of Plato's cave, then lo & behold
Since the time of his youth, Crazy Horse had known that the world that men live in was only a shadow of the real world.

[jaystao]

p.s. If nothing else, it explains how Crazy Horse got his name.

lol. Genius.

I like this thread and where it is going. At the moment I am begining to think of the island as a 'pirate' or parasite dimension. That may be existing off the materials and possibly even time of other worlds. I have this theory on why such might be the case but i'll wait a bit until it clears in my head, like the horses in Crazy Horses dreams. And lets get back into the idea of the opening tittle LOST. Something that shifts between states before it becomes substantial. In effect 'phasing'. Some vast disconnect that is not just the great macro island but also its inner microcosmic structures.

In regards to time travel however I was under the impression that they discredited 'loop holes' in time. So time travel is still a candidate as long as it is linear (no looping back on itself). I think some form of time travel, wether it is by way off travling to another parallel Universe in time or creating dimensional pockets or doorways that allow past materials to travel through time, might still be a viable option.

[lostmio]

In regards to time travel however I was under the impression that they discredited 'loop holes' in time. So time travel is still a candidate as long as it is linear (no looping back on itself)
I thought they discredited time travel altogether, except to say there may be some "manipulation of time", which in context I took as a reference to the non-linearity of some of the flash back scenes.

I'm a time-travel-plot junkie but want to be alerted going in front so I can enjoy the ride. I'll be disappointed if the Losts have time-travelled. :(

[clayseason1]

I thought they discredited time travel altogether, except to say there may be some "manipulation of time", which in context I took as a reference to the non-linearity of some of the flash back scenes.

I don't have the exact quote but I think TPTB said something like - no time travel but there may be wrinkles or cracks in time. 8o

We think of time as linear - like travelling in a straight line down a road - past - present and future. So my interpretation was that flight 815 did not travel backward or forward in time - that the flight crashed in the present - of course I question whether that is our present or someone else's present.
I also think the only way to manipulate time without travelling forward or backward in a linear manner would be to step off of that line in a perpendicular manner which would mean stepping into another dimension or alternate reality.

[joepa15425]

Call me paranoid.....but....I really don't trust TPTB.

[boonian androphile]

You're paranoid:;) . I don't trust them either.

[Warthawg1]

I agree completely.

[nastyned]

There are a limited number of explanations for them being on a relatively large land mass that the rest of the world apparently cannot see:

1) they are not on our earth -- they are in a different dimension/on a different world;

2) they are on earth but in a different time;

3) the island is in fact invisible to the outside world for some reason.

[Warthawg1]

the island is in fact invisible to the outside world for some reason

Yes, but that one reason has limitless possibilities... so saying the number of possible reasons is very small, and then listing that as one of those limited number of reasons is a bit misleading.

[bigmouth]

I thought they discredited time travel altogether, except to say there may be some "manipulation of time", which in context I took as a reference to the non-linearity of some of the flash back scenes.

Don't believe their lies. At this point, I don't trust anything TPTB say to be literally true.

2) they are on earth but in a different time;

3) the island is in fact invisible to the outside world for some reason.

I lean towards #3, but wonder if it isn't related somehow to #2. For example, has anyone heard of the Circumnavigator's Paradox?

[LostInWilderness]

I have never understood belief in the TPTB statements. As they are designed to increase ratings, they are fundamentaly at odds with solving the mysteries of Lost.

[clayseason1]

I lean towards #3, but wonder if it isn't related somehow to #2. For example, has anyone heard of the Circumnavigator's Paradox?

Yes, anyone travelling completely around the world along the equator would pick up a day or lose a day depending upon the direction they travelled.

[Homer Noodleman]

I can tell you from my youthful experience as a swabbie -- you always pick up a work day and lose a day off.

[bigmouth]

I can tell you from my youthful experience as a swabbie -- you always pick up a work day and lose a day off.
Any chance that was on the Ship of Lost Souls?
Yes, anyone travelling completely around the world along the equator would pick up a day or lose a day depending upon the direction they travelled.
That's the one. There are all sorts of legends about how whole ships have disappeared into the lost day of the circumnavigator's paradox. One great example is the story of the Lost Galleon (http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/H/HarteBret/verse/completepoetical/lostgalleon.html). Some have speculated that the island is located at the intersection of the Equator and International Date Line. Perhaps our lostaways are trapped in the lost day of the circumnavigator's paradox!

Sounds a little farfetched, I realize. But consider that the philly experiment purportedly involved cloaking ships by removing them from our time frame. Perhaps the same is somehow true of the island, as well.

[clayseason1]

That's the one. There are all sorts of legends about how whole ships have disappeared into the lost day of the circumnavigator's paradox. One great example is the story of the Lost Galleon. Some have speculated that the island is located at the intersection of the Equator and International Date Line. Perhaps our lostaways are trapped in the lost day of the circumnavigator's paradox!

Sounds a little farfetched, I realize.

I don't think it sounds farfetched. :D

[Hurley4Prez]

LostinWilderness, I've been on the same boat. I've never put much faith in what TPTB have told us. Before I ever visited this forum, I had a strong hunch that most of what TPTB would say would prove misleading. Talking with everyone here last season only confirmed my original intuitions.

Everyone involved with the show is hit regularly with questions that would ruin its chances of ratings success.
I can't think of another show in recent history that's inspired so many I-gotta-know questions by rabid fans, media and general audience (save maybe the X-Files).
I think this unusual predicament justifies unusually guarded secrets and effective misdirection. We all want to know, and be suprised simultaneously. That's pretty much impossible without a little trickery.

[yung23]

still in here too...
although now i dont think this hatch is involved...

I think joepra mentioned earlier that hatch could be the portal so to speak...

but even if they wanted to use time travel in the show, how could they direct it so its still "Lost" ? once you bring something like that in, the show may seem to change genres... baby steps I guess... everything has been not-so far fecthed so far... although a smoke tendril security system is VERY far-fecthed, I for one, beleived the characters all the way..

time-travel can work here afterall.
heck, I still think the green-dude from the comic could work..

as long as JJ's name is there.

[clayseason1]

3) the island is in fact invisible to the outside world for some reason.

I think nastyned meant something else. I think he meant

3. the island is on earth in present time and present space but for some unknown reason is not detectable therefore invisible.

2) they are on earth but in a different time;
Since Danielle's "equipment" is circa WWII or rather an "aged" WWII equipment, then if they are on earth in a different time, it would be a time when the island could be detected. So, I think this possibility is not likely unless it falls under number 3 as I restated.

[joepa15425]

I have never understood belief in the TPTB statements. As they are designed to increase ratings, they are fundamentaly at odds with solving the mysteries of Lost.

Well said. Let's face it, the theory that gets, "TPTB said so" the most is the purgatory theory. Now I'm not advocating purgatory, but it got pretty looney around here in the begining when week after week, new viewers and new posters would log on and go "Eureka, I figured it out...They are all dead." Still in the begining week after week, we were presented a show that was very purgatory-like with all its soul searching, redemption, characters of questionable and objectionable backgrounds, deadmen walking, and yes, a very horrific plane crash that 40+ people just walked away from. Given what we "know" so far, if I had to pick one theory and defend it with my life, I'd chose purgatory. But alas, that theory is taboo, because TPTB said so. The same PTB that gave us the word, "pseudo-science." What the hell does that mean???? To me it sounds like a word that a pastor of a church might use to refer to his explantion of creationism. I mean doesn't science mean "the truth about something", the truth meaning what is known or can be proven? Pseudo-science sounds like sorta-pregnant, but what am I talking about, TPTB said so.

Now please for god's sake don't flame me. I don't think they are all dead....anymore....TPTB said so.

added**
I used to drink in bar in Orlando called Nasty Ned's, but that was a long time ago.

added again**** My nephew just called me from Orlando to ask me when the Marine Corps birthday is. I know this because well, I was a Marine, but it's also the same day as mine. Of course 190 years earlier, but some days it just feels like a few decades ago.

[NeillT006]

Some have speculated that the island is located at the intersection of the Equator and International Date Line. Perhaps our lostaways are trapped in the lost day of the circumnavigator's paradox!

If the solution to LOST's mysteries lies in the notion that the actions of men and women in assigning what are essentially artificial reference lines to maps can somehow create a hole in reality through which real world stuff can exit our plane of existence, then I think I will spend my Wednesdays watching LifeTime.

N.

[Brian]

LostInWilderness,
I have never understood belief in the TPTB statements. As they are designed to increase ratings, they are fundamentaly at odds with solving the mysteries of Lost.
Absolutely! About the only thing I allow myself to believe from TPTB is that everything that happens on the island, happens for a reason. Beyond that, notta! I guess maybe you explained exactly why I reacted the way I did to that Damon interview a few weeks back about what we're going to see in S2. I didn't believe a word of it for a minute. The most shining example of this is TPTB saying that the Summer Re-run would be in it's entirety to allow non-viewers to catch up on S1. They upheld that promise rather well didn't they? The spoiler info they leak is so vague it's borderline ridiculous. I'll believe it when I see it on Wednesday evening, even then I'm not 100% behind them!

[clayseason1]

If the solution to LOST's mysteries lies in the notion that the actions of men and women in assigning what are essentially artificial reference lines to maps can somehow create a hole in reality through which real world stuff can exit our plane of existence, then I think I will spend my Wednesdays watching LifeTime.

I don't think that the actions of men and women assigning artificial reference lines to maps can "create" anything. Maybe it's just a coincidence that the portal coincides with this intersection. :)

[lostmio]

If the solution to LOST's mysteries lies in the notion that the actions of men and women in assigning what are essentially artificial reference lines to maps can somehow create a hole in reality through which real world stuff can exit our plane of existence, then I think I will spend my Wednesdays watching LifeTime.

Who said it was the solution to Lost's mysteries? It could just be one more element.

A good writer can knock a hole in reality any which way but I personally favor stories with a little human intervention. Nature by itself can get boring. Platform 9 3/4 hooked a few million readers, not all of us young.
To each his/her own.

[Warthawg1]

If the solution to LOST's mysteries lies in the notion that the actions of men and women in assigning what are essentially artificial reference lines to maps can somehow create a hole in reality through which real world stuff can exit our plane of existence, then I think I will spend my Wednesdays watching LifeTime

lol..in essence I agree with that statement. That was my issue with with the circumnavigators paradox when it was brought up previously. I have no problem with time travel, but I will have a hard time believing man made lines on a map, and how we keep track of time as having any real relevance to the way time really exists. I have no problem with an involvement of time manipulation, but it's going to have to go deeper than the island being situated on the international date line.

[Homer Noodleman]

I don't recall getting attacked by killer Giraffes when I crossed the International Date Line. Than again, I was a sailor so I may have been too drunk to remember.

[clayseason1]

I have no problem with time travel, but I will have a hard time believing man made lines on a map, and how we keep track of time as having any real relevance to the way time really exists. I have no problem with an involvement of time manipulation, but it's going to have to go deeper than the island being situated on the international date line.

I agree - I think the international date line represents a sci-fi window of opportunity - nothing more.

Now, how we keep track of time may have a bearing on time elsewhere. Our calendar is not perfect - that's why we add leap years every 4 years.

It's seems to me that TPTB were asked how long Danielle had been on the island - the response was 16 years and they stipulated even though the transmission repetition indicated a longer time frame 16 years and 5 months (or something like that). So why the discrepancy?

[TheBigCat]

Well, remember that when Sayid calculated the 16 years he was using 30 seconds as the time duration of each iteration. But what he said was "roughly 30 seconds" and he did the math from that figure. Several people watched the episode again and timed the message as repeating between 26 and 30 seconds depending I suppose on what was not shown (ie. omitted by editing for time constraint or dramatic effect).

Keep in mind that the actual length of the transmission was probably not exactly 30 seconds, but something close to it, and that a variation of 1 second in the length of iteration would change the overall time frame by nearly 6 months. Therefore, an accurate digure as to how long the message has been running requires an accurate measurement of each iteration, and assumes no variation in iterations for the duration of the transmission.

[clayseason1]

Thanks Big Cat! Sayid did say "roughly" - so he probably rounded to 30 seconds which as you say could over an extended period of time result in a greater period of time.

So, if we take TPTB's statement that Danielle has been on the island for 16 years, she could have shipwrecked around the same time frame (only 16 years earlier) as flight 815 crashed. That could mean that her baby was born about the same time of the year that Aaron was born.

This coincidence may mean nothing, but it suggests a possible pattern.

[bigmouth]

I agree - I think the international date line represents a sci-fi window of opportunity - nothing more.

Now, how we keep track of time may have a bearing on time elsewhere. Our calendar is not perfect - that's why we add leap years every 4 years.

Well said, Clayseason! As biscuitmom says, it's one more element to the tale. I agree that artificial lines on a map don't make for time travel. The circumnavigator's paradox is useful mostly as a metaphor for explaining how the island might be cloaked.

That said, I don't think it's a coincidence that longitude tracks time, and that Dani's maps have only latitudinal references. This suggests to me the key question is Clayseason's re how we keep track of time. I suspect we'll learn that our calendar is not the one most relevant to this show.

On that note, have folks discussed Precession and the Long Count?

[clayseason1]

austrasiel

Austra: I'd like to look at a picture of that constellation but I couldn't find it on Lost-media. I know that people have said it's near the end of "Special", but exactly which one of the characters is on screen at that instant? Do you know if there is a screen capture of that scene posted somewhere?

I finally found a screen cap of the reversed Big Dipper from "Special".

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/bigdipper.jpg

[NeillT006]

It was pretty hot today.

Perhaps I should have worn a hat.

And I grew up as a young man in the 60s.

Some of the stories you younger folks may have heard of those times are true.

But, I don't think this is related to either of those things.

Although I have not posted much of anything on it, I have always been intrigued by a possible connection between "The Numbers" and the Connect Four game that Lenny was playing at the hospital. In particular, the 6 x 7 grid yields the number 42.

So, I was messing around with that notion. I numbered the holes in the game board to see what it might look like.

I was actually wondering if I might end up with some correlation to the seating chart on the plane.

But, then I saw the post above.

My jaw still hurts from hitting the desk.

So tell me. I'm not nuts, am I?

http://riddellhome.com/loststars.jpg

N.

[clayseason1]

No! You are not nuts!

Wow!

Well, we must be on to something for sure, don't you think?

[NeillT006]

Well, we must be on to something for sure, don't you think?

Yes.

[northernlightsabove]

impressive neill...

[clayseason1]

:D Well what do you think it means?

[NeillT006]

Well what do you think it means?

Frankly, I am still a bit stunned.

N.

[yung23]

NEIL !!

what have you found ?


what would have happened if you started at the top of row one and went down ?...

1 7 13 19 25 31 37
2 8 14 20 26 32 38
3 9 15 21 27 33 39
4 10 16 22 28 34 40
5 11 17 23 29 35 41
6 12 18 24 30 36 42


i figure you get it.
I just wanted to see if I could type it out..

if you look, now it only seems to be upside down,
so you definetly found something here !

[NeillT006]

what would have happened if you started at the top of row one and went down ?...

I arrived at the numbering by asking myself how the numbers would be assigned if you dropped pieces in one at a time starting from left to right.

N.

(edited to correct typo)

[yung23]

I was wondering about that. thanx/ makes sense to me.

either way, wow.

Very good work. Im stunned.

I just dont know why or how to apply it.

[NeillT006]

Well what do you think it means?

Well, one thing I guess I can say is that since you can see the playng pieces from both sides of the board, the pattern would be the same from either side -- only reversed.

Hmmm.

N.

[yung23]

come to think of it, I think lenny started right to left...
we were looking through the board at him.. dropping in pieces closer to the lens...

kinda appears that way... not that it matters,
neil has found something either way

[clayseason1]

I always thought the connect 4 game meant something as in "connect 4", never thinking of the grid.

Excellent find Neil!

Well, what we have is the mirrored image of the big dipper.
The numbers on a 6x7 grid parallel this image.
Isn't the big dipper part of Ursa Major - Big Bear (I think) constellation?
Do those particular stars (the six) have names?
Are there are grids of 6x7?

come to think of it, I think lenny started right to left...
Yes he definitely started on his right.
Wait! He could have been playing against somebody before Hurley came in.
But I don't think it matters - the important thing is the grid.
If it mattered, the playing pieces would have been in the grid according to the numbers and there were only two or three pieces in the grid.

Well, it's late and my brain won't move out of the stunned position. I'll be dreaming of 6x7 grids and the big dipper.

Well done Neil! Whatever it means.

[yung23]

maybe its just a hint for the diehards...

doh, I hate being at the top..
go back and check out what neil has found new lurkers !!

[clayseason1]

Here's a link with the names of the stars in the big dipper.

Big Dipper (http://www.astropix.com/HTML/C_SPRING/BIGDIP.HTM)

roll your mouse over the photo

[NeillT006]

This is probably too much of a leap, but was the extent (angle) that Locke's compass seemed to deviate from visual north about the same as the tilt of the grid needed to bring it in line with the constellation as seen in the screenshot?

N.

[LostInWilderness]

I like it Neill. But why not include all 7 stars?

[joepa15425]

Damn Neill!!!!!
I don't know if this means anything or not. But no doubt you found the most sublte clue/coincidence thus far. If there are any others like this...well, i don't think there are. Can't be, these hollywood types are as smart as us.....ahem....you!

[boonian androphile]

I like the configuration and I like the application.

In the picture it looks as though some smaller stars are included but arent nearly as emphasized. I couldnt tell you any of the stars' names without looking them up. A later task.

Well, if Michael & Walt are looking at the Connect Four interpreted constellation from one side, wouldn't it make sense that an opponent would at least metaphorically be looking at the constellation from the other side? Would go back to earlier games or contest ideas. The image of the six stars also suggests a pathway from 4 to 42. I have said earlier and elsewhere that 4 would be the starting point, and 8 would be next focal point (for next season). And one remote possibility is that the visual drop from 4 to 8 would reflect how season two might progress: as descent. Some people have already speculated that season 2 looks to be that of division and strife. Then 15 might prove a reclimb after the descent---whatever that would mean.

If you're nuts then we all are. :p

[clayseason1]

Neil,

I think the 6x7 grid is a key.
Our numbers on the key show us the big dipper..um the reverse of the big dipper.

Other sets of numbers may show up other star groupings or entire constellations. What this may mean - I don't know but...


*spoiler information*













In the new season 2 promo - we have to connect the dots to get to the promo - I think it's connect the stars - There's a possibility that the other groups or stars are right there in the promo.
In addition, I think astrology is going to play a part in LOST (or is playing a part) - remember Claire offered to do Kate's chart - why oh why didn't she :p

[boonian androphile]

Cause Kate's body language said no. Maybe the Gemini constellation (mine as well btw) is one to check.

[clayseason1]

Also I think the groups of numbers that the stars correspond to on the chart like 4 8 15 16 23 42 don't "mean" anything; I think the group of numbers "do" something.
Remember Lenny told Hurley by using the numbers, Hurley "opened the box".
Well, I've always thought if these numbers open the box, what closes the box - using another set of numbers?

I also think that our set of numbers literally bring people and/or things to the island. If that's right then is it possible that using a different group of numbers will get them off the island?

So Neil, I think you found a BIG clue!

[boonian androphile]

What numbers close the box? Our numbers in reverse order: 42 to 4?

[NeillT006]

Also I think the groups of numbers that the stars correspond to on the chart like 4 8 15 16 23 42 don't "mean" anything

If the numbers will do something, it will be because they mean something. But can we discern their meaning? Rote useage of them without an understanding of them is apparently a dangerous thing.

I have bumped the tesseract thread because it expresses how I am feeling about all of this right now.

N.

[clayseason1]

What numbers close the box? Our numbers in reverse order: 42 to 4?
I don't know.

I like the idea of looking at the gemini constellation or rather the reverse to see if a group of those stars line up on the grid.

But back to the reverse of the big dipper for a moment.

If I were standing on the island after being stranded there, looking up at the night sky and saw the reverse of the big dipper, I think I would freak out, wouldn't you?

So that leads me to believe...
1. the survivors are so disconnected they don't realize the big dipper is reversed (Claire no longer has an excuse - she is no longer pregnant)
or
2. the survivors are seeing what they have always seen - the reverse of the big dipper (Which would mean they are and always have been in a mirrorred alternate reality or at least a reversed alternate reality.)
or
3. the producers aren't ready for someone to freak out and reveal the big dipper is reversed.

I have bumped the tesseract thread because it expresses how I am feeling about all of this right now

I thought about that too as an explanation for the reverse big dipper. If indeed the island is located in another dimension, it might be possible for the big dipper to be reversed dependant upong the view. I wonder if the big dipper is not reversed on the other side of the island?

eta: I think Neil's grid/reverse big dipper discovery - substantiates the intent of the big dipper to be reversed therefore for those that may have thought it was a continuity error, I think this proves that it is not.

[NeillT006]

If indeed the island is located in another dimension, it might be possible for the big dipper to be reversed dependant upong the view.

Alternate images of a single reality, with what is being perceived being dependent on point-of-view.

I like that.

N.

[clayseason1]

Alternate images of a single reality, with what is being perceived being dependent on point-of-view.

I like that.

Take a look at the last page of my "Wrinkle in Time" theory (which as I expressed on page 2 - I think the island is located in a tesseract - also on page 2 are some good links to "seeing in the 4th dimension").

On the last page of that thread near the end, there is a link provided by awsecond to a short story by heinlein - worth the read and gives added perspective to what it might be like inside a tesseract.

[NeillT006]

Chat Log (edited to correct some pretty horrible spelling):

Kira1908:: wow neill
Kira1908:: thats amazing
Kira1908:: almost scary
NeillT006:: back
NeillT006:: was that cool, or what?
Kira1908:: im stunned
NeillT006:: I am going to tell you, my heart rate must have jumped about 20 beats per minute
Kira1908:: hahahaa
Kira1908:: i bet
Kira1908:: thats really great
NeillT006:: it was like seeing a hint of the meaning of everything
NeillT006:: I later got sleepy and went to bed
NeillT006:: which is good too
Kira1908:: u have any idea what it means?
NeillT006:: well
NeillT006:: I think it is telling us something
Kira1908:: yeah
NeillT006:: I am thinking that it will never be explained in the show
NeillT006:: that it is the "tesseract"
NeillT006:: something that will forever be beyond our perception
NeillT006:: because it resides in a plane that excludes us
Kira1908:: if u think about it, what kind of person (of the writers) would come up with something like that
NeillT006:: if this is not a coincidence
NeillT006:: then they are way deep
Kira1908:: yes
NeillT006:: if it is a coincidence
NeillT006:: then life is way deep
NeillT006:: and there is a tesseract at work perhaps
Kira1908:: i would never find something like that
NeillT006:: they could be way deep
Kira1908:: very
NeillT006:: just reading what people post in theories demonstrates how deep people can be
NeillT006:: many too deep for me
Kira1908:: well u got pretty deep already
NeillT006:: I am like Locke
NeillT006:: I like to play games
NeillT006:: and this is one huge puzzle
Kira1908:: but i cant imagine what they would say with this
NeillT006:: I don't know that it is to say anything
hatch dweller joined
NeillT006:: perhaps it is just to evoke an emotion
NeillT006:: which is what art does, eh?

[I like to listen]

Lost in the Wilderness brought an important point up.

This speculation disregards the postion of Mizar/Alcor(optical double) in the handle. Reference the Clayseason1 link. It would need to be at postion #30 on the board for this to hold water. Even if there is cloud cover over this postion in the screencap, it would not explain that the series-
4,8,15,16,23,42 is SIX numbers and the Big Dipper has SEVEN positions and secondly the number series does not include #30.

[NeillT006]

This speculation disregards the postion of Mizar/Alcor(optical double) in the handle. Reference the Clayseason1 link. It would need to be at postion #30 on the board for this to hold water. Even if there is cloud cover over this postion in the screencap, it would not explain that the series-

Well, maybe we should deal with what we can see, before turning to what we can't.

N.

[I like to listen]

Maybe in this alternate world the Big Dipper has only 6 positions instead of 7 -cloud cover or not. That would explain it.
Seriously, what we can see is in the REAL night sky. Not astronomy based on LOST screencaps. The connect four game would have to allow for 7 numbers, in order for these to patterns to be compatible. Fact.
Theories don't prove facts, facts prove theories.

[NeillT006]

Seriously, what we know is in the REAL night sky. Not astronomy based on LOST screencaps. The connect four game would have to allow for 7 numbers, in order for these to patterns to be compatible. Fact.

Well, in the REAL night sky the handle of the Big Dipper points the other way.

So it is already established that something wierd is going on here.

N.

[NeillT006]

Theories don't prove facts, facts prove theories.

But theories do provide explanation for observed "facts."

N.

[yung23]

When I first saw this screen cap, it was JUST before I went to ocenaic to play the connect the dots game,

( funny that we only NOW put the screen cap up, we've had it since special right?)

anway, when I played the game I kept trying to use the dipper as a reference to connect the stars, but Niel hadn't posted his yet...I never found the way to do it .. I always end up with a "terrasect"...

then I come back here and Neil has put his discovery up..


is it a terrasect that we see join ?


edit DOH !!
at the top again !!


and Neil.. when I saw this last night, it did seem like I had seen it before, did you ever bring it up before in a connect four thread ?

where is that thread... ?

still stunned here, if it was ever brought up, it wasn't so obvious....

[NeillT006]

No, it is tesseract.

But don't feel bad. I keep doing the same thing.

The connect the dots at the Oceanic site is sort of interesting. One thing, if you notice, is that each time you come to the end of the sequence the graphic moves to a figure based upon 6 points which defines the location of what for the life of me looks like a star.

Sort of SG1-ish.

and Neil.. when I saw this last night, it did seem like I had seen it before, did you ever bring it up before in a connect four thread ?

I am not aware of having seen anything of this nature before. But, I am old, and my memory maybe feeble.

There were lots of Connect 4 threads I think.

N.

[SelfProjectRealized]

But why not include all 7 stars?

Personally, I think the fact that this thing looks like a reverse big dipper is irrelevant. There is nowhere on Earth that the big dipper would look like that, therefore we must conclude that A) they are not on Earth, or they're on some "alternate" Earth, or B) that is not the big dipper, and that set of 6 stars is something that can only be seen from the island, for whatever reason having to do with the numbers. Yeah, it looks like the big dipper in reverse, but not really. The proportions are quite different from the actual big dipper. In my opinion the resemblance to the big dipper is just a mislead to throw the viewer off, and make them think that it must have something to do with the reversal of it and all that, but the actual reason for those stars being there has to do with the numbers, as Neill found out, and the fact that it makes a dipping pattern when mapped out like that is a not so implausible coincidence.

You know what would be cool, actually? If all the stars in their sky were variations of this pattern.

:eek :eek :eek

Screencaps from other episodes please!

[yung23]

I keep thinking TPTB somehow helped this along by deciding to use a connect the stars theme on the oceanic site...

it just seems like perfect timing to find such a hint.

not that Neil did any less than a miracle here, its just a feeling I have...


nearly a subconcious hint.

[drabauer]

binary, connect 4, transponders (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm45.showMes sage?topicID=45.topic)

[I like to listen]

SelfProjectRealized
Agreed -
Forget about the Big Dipper in this speculation and you are left with a pattern that matches your grid.

That I can applaud. (sincere applause occurs)

[clayseason1]

Personally, I think the fact that this thing looks like a reverse big dipper is irrelevant. There is nowhere on Earth that the big dipper would look like that, therefore we must conclude that A) they are not on Earth, or they're on some "alternate" Earth, or B) that is not the big dipper, and that set of 6 stars is something that can only be seen from the island, for whatever reason having to do with the numbers. Yeah, it looks like the big dipper in reverse, but not really.

You may be right.

Just an observation: If I were standing on Mizar looking up at the night sky - I would see "the big dipper" without my star.

[SelfProjectRealized]

Oooh... that's a damn good point. Plus, the proportions would be off compared to how they look from Earth too. Are they on Mizar? And how do the numbers fit in?

Neill for president.

[clayseason1]

Are they on Mizar? And how do the numbers fit in?
It's a possibility.

But I think we are getting away from another possibility. Maybe Mizar is not on there, to show that this is not a part of the Big Dipper, but rather to show that this a part of Ursa Major - which includes more than just one more star.

In other words the Neil's number grid shows a part of Ursa Major (as does the screen cap) only reversed.

You say the proportions are off in Neil's grid - by allowing more space between the columns does that correct the proportions?

[NeillT006]

Just an observation: If I were standing on Mizar looking up at the night sky - I would see "the big dipper" without my star.

CS:

That is a good thought, and actually I was thinking about it too. Ultimately, I don't know if that could be true.

First, the stars in the big dipper do not all truly line up. They merely give the illusion of being grouped because of their similar relative magnitudes. In reality, their distances from the earth vary greatly I believe.

As a consequence, it would be a wild coincidence (so what else is new?) for Mr. Dipper to give the same appearance, only reversed, from a vantage point on the "other side" looking back toward Earth's home star, Sol.

And, I am guessing that even if that coincidence were to materialize, the missing Mizar position in the Dipper would be filled by Sol itself as you looked back in that direction. I don't think that Sol has the same absolute magnitude as the Mizar system, but I don't think that the difference is enough that Sol would be invisible from Mizar while Mizar would be clearly visible from Sol.

Also, I think I read that Mizar is a binary system. So, if in that region, then you would have an extra sun in the sky (at least at times). And, one would have to wonder about the effect of the intricate tidal forces within a binary system on the likelihood of the successful accretion of a "terrestrial" planet the equivalent of Earth.

But, if we grant TPTB the same latitude for imprecision as is granted other purveyors of the Sci-Fi (or space opera) genre, then maybe we can over look those things.

It could lead to some fun. If we suspend disbelief long enough on the issues cited, then obviously we could be seeing a situation in which the survivors of flight 815 have been sprinted across the depths of space (maybe ala Contact) to a site on another world customized to accommodate the residents of Sol's Earth.

For what purpose? Who knows?

Interplanetary zoo? Endanged specie’s refuge? An alien presence on Earth caused an unintended crash of the airplane and, as moral beings, the tourists were feeling a little guilty?

I like the zoo idea, because it gives a possible significance for the numbers.

All students of SG1 know that to define the location of any point in space you have to have six references. Well, we have six. And the fact that they appear on the hatch is perhaps an identification for the keepers that the entities in this display come from star system 4 8 15 16 23 42.

Yes, yes, yes, the aliens would not be expected to write in arabic numerals. But, maybe they converted so as not to have a situation in which the island dwellers would be confronted with alien notations (think Roswell).

It is interesting that the Oceanic site is actually playing out this six point location drama right now.

Anyway, I don't think that any of this is really "it." But it would be fun.

N.

[clayseason1]

And, I am guessing that even if that coincidence were to materialize, the missing Mizar position in the Dipper would be filled by Sol itself as you looked back in that direction.
hmmm...Mizar is the closest to us - only 78 light years from the sun....so I don't think you would be looking back, I think you would be looking forward still.


All students of SG1 know that to define the location of any point in space you have to have six references. Well, we have six. And the fact that they appear on the hatch is perhaps an identification for the keepers that the entities in this display come from star system 4 8 15 16 23 42.

I thought about that not too long ago but couldn't go anywhere with it.

Well, Daniel...I mean Neill :) , I think your discovery is a BIG piece of the puzzle, I really do.

[NeillT006]

hmmm...Mizar is the closest to us - only 78 light years from the sun....so I don't think you would be looking back, I think you would be looking forward still.

Damn.

That's right.

Oh my.

N.

[NeillT006]

Well, Daniel...I mean Neill

If that means I get to hang out with Amanda Tapping, where do I sign up?

N.

[clayseason1]

If that means I get to hang out with Amanda Tapping, where do I sign up?

:lol

Well, don't look at me...I've been trying to sign up for Richard Dean Anderson for years. :p

[NeillT006]

hmmm...Mizar is the closest to us - only 78 light years from the sun....so I don't think you would be looking back, I think you would be looking forward still.

Wait a minute.

Then you would not be seeing the dipper in reverse.

You would be seeing it from essentially the same point of view as we Earthlings do, no?

N.

[clayseason1]

You would be seeing it from essentially the same point of view as we Earthlings do, no?

Yes, unless you were in a mirrored alternate reality or possibly a tesseract. 8o

....or maybe whoever is projecting the light toward the interior of the dome that covers the island, poked out the holes in the grid cover incorrectly.

[NeillT006]

I like to think that it is the point of view that Hurley would have had while he was hospitalized with Lenny and watched Lenny go through the sequence, again and again.

Meaning of course that the constellation may be a Hurleyesque manifestation, imposed upon the island by whatever forces are at work.

N.

[yung23]

and now their IN the box, looking out ?

[clayseason1]

and now their IN the box, looking out.

Here's a link provided by awsecond - it will open your mind to the view from inside a tesseract And He Built a Crooked House by Heinlein (http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/heinlein/heinlein1.html)

[yung23]

I can do some 3d tesseract if anyone wants to see them from different angles etc..

It would be easy enough.

"create cube" is a button in maya....

edit.. just came back from a walk... I was thinking constantly about this tesseract/numbers/connect four idea...

now, this is just a first attempt...

I noticed drawing a tesseract on my pda notepad.. that a square has 4 vertices, adding 4 gives 8 vertices, (a cube)

and mirroring that cube, using one vertice as a pivot".. you get two 3d cubes with 15 vertices...

see where Im going here ?..

now two cubes completely mirrored is 16 vertices... and mirroring that would give 32.. but if you could "re-use some(howmany?) vertices you may end up with a tesseract that has 23 vertices.. then mirroring that would give 46 vertices.. but again -reusing (only 4 here) vertices you would end up with a tesseract using 42 vertices !!!!!

!!!!

Am I onto something now ?

or am I really making stuff up just to incorporate the numbers ? Ive seen a heck of a lot of us do this...

but cmon, a square has 4, a cube has 8,
does a tesseract have min of 15/16 ?
can one have 23 ?
and 42 ?

pictures coming (if the idea holds)


maybe not.. .I cant make one using those numbers... yet.. but when I come close to them 3/8/16/16/24/42, you get a triangle in the corner of the cube... perhaps the one over our main inlet (of the missing inlets)



www.maa.org/editorial/kno...eract.html (http://www.maa.org/editorial/knot/tesseract.html)

[drabauer]

Keep going yung!!!!

With points for further reference:

http://www.swedishpoet.com/images/tesspoints.jpg

[NeillT006]

In honor of this weekend's activities, which have been as much fun as I have had in a long time, I bestow on all of us the much coveted Tessy:

http://www.rbitanga.com/images/Tesser5-292x529.jpg

[clayseason1]

In honor of this weekend's activities, which have been as much fun as I have had in a long time, I bestow on all of us the much coveted Tessy:

:D I like it! I really really like it!

[SelfProjectRealized]

Let's make sure not to forget that a tesseract is in fact a 4-dimensional object, so these images of them are missing a dimension (2, actually). So the 3-d representations of tesseracts are like drawing an image of a cube (3-dimensions) on a piece of paper (2-dimensions). It's not a cube, it's just a representation of one, and quite a flawed one at that (since it's impossible to tell which "direction" it's drawn in, i.e. which face is closer to you, the observer). The only reason why we are so good at "seeing" a 3-dimensional cube from that 2-dimensional representation is because our sense of vision is specifically designed to do so. I'm not sure where I'm going with this... just note that, a tesseract, qua tesseract, is an impossible thing for a human being to picture other than in an abstract/mathematical sense. I haven't quite yet figured out how the properties of such an object relate to this theory or why we think they should.

[yung23]

hence me being stuck in maya right now.


the link has a great tessaracts drawing plug-in...

good that you pointed out its nearly impossible to picture, maya is only a 3d program,, I wonder if anyones ever made an attempt at a 4d program..

???

how the heck could one even be shown ?

its impossible !! 3d was a miracle as it is.

its so frustrating working in 3d, on a 2d screen, to move things, I must move them twice.. in one window for x & y..
then another window for z... ( you can use a xyz manipulator and do it one perspective view, but I was backing up the point made above by selfproject...)

this may be very hard to theorize...
or even understand at all.



BUT, we are onto something here.... !!:)

sorry SHTBL, I got in there first..

[sawyerhasbestlines]

self project, Great avatar ^^^^

back to tessaracts...

[NeillT006]

I'm not sure where I'm going with this... just note that, a tesseract, qua tesseract, is an impossible thing for a human being to picture other than in an abstract/mathematical sense. I haven't quite yet figured out how the properties of such an object relate to this theory or why we think they should.

SPR:

But of course you are right. I have no expectation at all that the tesseract concept will ever be expressly addressed in the show. I have been advancing its properties more in an effort to address unknown, and perhaps unknowable, connections, effects and influences.

I didn't want to drag old stuff into this thread from others, but what I wrote in Factoring Humanity best relates my postion. It is the height of conceit to quote one's self, but what the hell:


Here is an indirect relationship found while googeling the "tesseract" in literature: a recent novel by the name "The Tesseract." Although the novel may not be dealing directly with the notion, and may be only borrowing the concept to invoke a particular frame of mind, the premise is one of seemingly random and coincidental connections between characters existing as the perceptions by three-dimensional consciousness of deeper connections in a four-dimensional reality.

It hurts your brain to think about this stuff, but the simple example always given is to consider what an entity existing in a 2-dimensional reality (usually playfully dubbed a "Flatlander&quot;) would "see" or think it is seeing when encountering a three-dimensional object, like a cube, sphere, pyramid, etc. Manipulations of the object in the third dimension would produce consequences in Flatlander's existence, but the existence and mechanism of those manipulations would be beyond Flatlander's perception.

Obviously, this whole idea of facially coincidental connections having a deeper reality resonates with Lost.

and later in the same thread:

I am starting to believe that we will never be provided a definitive explanation for all of the events that we observe. We will sense connections and causes indirectly, but be forever blind to their actual existence because they exist on a plane that we can not directly observe, but only intuit.

N.

[yung23]

he he,, I love it..

the premise is one of seemingly random and coincidental connections between characters ...


guess what that is called....

[NeillT006]

guess what that is called....

Saturday night at any bar in Texas?

[yung23]

yep, that or synchronicity.



from the link at the bottom of one of my posts here...

...I found this observation useful when playing with the program below. What is it about? Travelling in 4D may have a milder effect on a 3D body than turning it inside out. It may only change its orientation. For example, a left-hand glove sucked into 4D may on return fit the right hand instead. (Future 4D travel guides are bound to offer an advice to the effect that gloves and shoes should always be carried in pairs.)

..

anyone remember Boones hands being "flipped" during his tie up.. ?

hints, hints, hints...

maybe.

[JacksGirlfriend]

guess what that is called....

Serendipity, destiny, fate... like Charlie has written on his hands.

And Neill... wow.

[yung23]

did you see the movie ?

Serendipity ?

at one point they decide to test fate by meeting on the same floor by taking separate elevators, both press..

floor 23.. !!

see, its everywhere !

Neil, could you expand or re-iterate your discovery ?, I kinda screwed the thread, sorry, you got me going...

[clayseason1]

selfprojectrealized - love your avatar
a tesseract, qua tesseract, is an impossible thing for a human being to picture other than in an abstract/mathematical sense. I haven't quite yet figured out how the properties of such an object relate to this theory or why we think they should.

I think the island is located in a tesseract, which would explain why no one can leave and why it can't be seen by anyone in the 3d world.

Add Neil's observation which what appears to be a grid with the numbers showing a segment (reversed) of a star constellation

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/loststars.jpg

Then look at the season2 promo *maybe spoilerish*
















http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/promocap.jpg

which appears to be a tesseract with star segments.

Leads me to believe that we have a big piece of the puzzle here.

[NeillT006]

You know, somewhere there were images posted that showed Daniel's work papers, and they had some sort of grid. Anyone know where that is?

N.

[yung23]

and thats what got me going, notice the one at oceanic is only six points, plus the centre button anyway..

when a true terrasact has a minimum of 16 points..

the theory is in there somewhere...

I guess I didn't hi-jack the thread that much,,,

[SelfProjectRealized]

Cool, Neill, that pretty much answers my question. It's scientifically... pseudo, of course, but this is sci-fi, so it's all good.

My only worry, if this is what's really going on, is that this is a perfect "deus ex machina" to seemingly explain seemingly unexplainable phenomena. At the end of the series if we have any question of the form "but why did this happen", the (non-)answer will always be "oh, that was an effect of the tesseract". But then... since no one really knows what would happen if a person was "inside" a tessaract (as if that means something), I at least hope their portrait of it ends up being an internally logical and metaphorically interesting one. And, so far it has, so I'm happy.

[Lostaboutlost]

This was only a little over my head but now it's wayyy too far up there!

[NeillT006]

You know, somewhere there were images posted that showed Daniel's work papers, and they had some sort of grid. Anyone know where that is?

Damn. The images were in the Math Heavy thread. But they are gone. I guess they can still be located at LostMedia. I'll try there.

I went back and read Math Heavy. Talk kept come backing to Connect 4 and 6 x 7 grids. We were almost there. But fell short.

Numbers - Heavy Math (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1477.topic&start=1&stop=20)

[clayseason1]

Damn. The images were in the Math Heavy thread. But they are gone. I guess they can still be located at LostMedia. I'll try there.
Yes, I think this is what you are looking for:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/numbersgrid.jpg


I read the linked thread - math heavy - my eyes crossed and my brain went to another place :p

I really think your grid is the key Neil.

Interesting link within the thread led to an artificial intelligence study using connect four in lieu of chess. The report was done in 1988 and the AI type was Shannon. 8o

[yung23]

WOWOWOWOWOW

check out THIS link... use steareo scopic view, stare at your monitor until the two terrasacts become one...
its soooo coooll !!!

keep hitting the stereo button until the two cubes pop up... you can edit using sliders etc...

hit detach to put the window in the middle of the screen..

dogfeathers.com/java/hyprcube.html (http://dogfeathers.com/java/hyprcube.html)

stare BETWEEN the rotating squares till they become one...

btw,, still dont know if terrasacts have much to do with things, but this is neat stuff...

[LostInWilderness]

That thing from the season 2 promo (which I would have prefered NOT to see had I known it before hand - I'm not sure it's exactly a spoiler though) looks like base to base pyramids with a star in the middle to me. How does it look like a tesseract to anyone?

[NeillT006]

That thing from the season 2 promo (which I would have prefered NOT to see had I known it before hand - I'm not sure it's exactly a spoiler though) looks like base to base pyramids with a star in the middle to me. How does it look like a tesseract to anyone?

LIW:

I don't think it is a spoiler in the sense of revealing something about an upcoming episode. It will lead you to one, however. It may (or may not) suggest information relevant to some element of the Lost mystery, however. That remains to be seen.

And it is not a tesseract.

N.

[NeillT006]

Yes, I think this is what you are looking for:

CS:

Thank you. I could not find the darn thing.

I had forgotten the detail of this grid. I guess the only significance I can see in it now is the thought to look at The Numbers in the context of the Connect 4 layout.

Can you tell me where you found this screen shot so I can go looking at a couple of the others that were floating around at the time?

N.

[clayseason1]

Sorry LIW - I wasn't thinking :\


*may be spoilerish*













No it's not a tesseract, but the way the promo plays the scenes from season1, (at angles) and then leaves them as a loose geometric wanna be figure reminds me of rectangles and cubes (which in the 4th dimension that we cannot see) would be a tesseract.

I had forgotten the detail of this grid. I guess the only significance I can see in it now is the thought to look at The Numbers in the context of the Connect 4 layout.
It's another 6x7 or 7x6 grid - so I would say you are correct, unless something turns up with repeating the numbers 7 times. Remember in Danielle's transmission, she said that Brendan took the keys. Those may be literal keys or those keys may be like your connect 4 grid.

Can you tell me where you found this screen shot so I can go looking at a couple of the others that were floating around at the time?
Lost-media at the beginning of numbers - maybe pages 2 or 3 (I can't remember but it was within the first few pages). There were two caps of the numbers, one with the equation and one without.



yung23
and thats what got me going, notice the one at oceanic is only six points, plus the centre button anyway..
Six points for six numbers which draws you to the center.

[clayseason1]

Question for Dr A

If you were to draw the notes for "you all everybody" on a piece of sheet music, then connect those notes, would the resulting connected notes look like "the reverse big dipper"?

.....and the same question for "La Mer" (Trenet version)

[yung23]

edited.. because I still believe...

tesseracts/ the numbers/ the whole flight crossing the date line thing..

more tesseract bs coming afterall...

[jaystao]

good that you pointed out its nearly impossible to picture, maya is only a 3d program,, I wonder if anyones ever made an attempt at a 4d program..

how the heck could one even be shown ?

I reflect at this point on a post I submitted in the Watchmen thread (now lost to the great EZhack) about four dimensional 'perspective' in comic books. Comic books were able to displace and fracture time and space using their boxed layout and the 'juxtaposition' of written and visual references. I argued that the same applies to lost in that with the use of flash backs juxtaposed with real time events on the island, a visual and verbal context is created that exists both in the here and than. Jack is discussing where Shannon is while washing his face in a water fall the shot cuts to an unrelated answer at his wedding, and there is a waterfall in the back ground. The two 'times zones' become ones, for us Jack is both here on the island at this juncture in time but he is also 'here' at his wedding by way of reference and the narrative edit/transition. This also applies to the various 'mcguffins' that are used to connect the various time junctures. So JJAbrams and co are creating a 4th dimensional text here, where perspective is something that exists both in the here and now where an event is something that is not singular but has multiple references to past, present and future.

In terms of what someone said about these tesseracts/ geometrical junctures creating somekind of map. I remember a thread that suggested that there was a similarity to certain themes in lost that reminded them of the plaque that was used on space probes to tell aliens where and when the human race existed. At one point I had a similar idea, that all the 'events' of lost are like a map, leading us to some fated area (reminds me of Daedalus's labrynth). Our choices are important but the map as a lacanian 'message' is simply waiting to be replied to or in this instants navigated. Anyway heres some more peanuts to chew on....

The plaques carried on the voyager and Pioneer space craft.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/jaystao/voyager-record-cover.jpg

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/jaystao/pioneer10-plaque.jpg

I thought the Adam and Eve type symbolism was also interesting. The position of earth is shown using a 4th dimensional diagram where time and space have been depicted using maths and geometry.

[thoughtform]

jaystao, I like a couple of things that you mention in your post.

The way that you explain how comic books are done makes sense to me. It does seem to be the way the writers tell the Lost story.

Then you used the word perspective, which I think has a lot to do with how the show is written. Not to mention the fact that Michael actually uses that word when talking to Walt about the drawings in comic books. It seemed to be a clue to me, the only problem is that I am not an artist or architect, and I know nothing about perspective. Not the technicalities anyway. It seemed to say that if you had the right perspective, you may be able to see what is going on on the show.

[bigmouth]

Wow...and here I was wondering if you guys had discussed tesseracts! Like CS, Yung, and others, I think the island is in a tesseract, too. Whoever did the thing with the grid and the stars--brilliant! I also like this spin because it links up with another influence on the show: the Cthulhu mythos. The island lair of Lovecraft's beast is full of strange twists and turns, and structures with dimensions that don't exist in the real world. Reminds me a bit of Yung's difficulties mapping the island.

Other applications of the concept occur to me, as well. For example, what if the Hatch is itself the entrance to a tesseract? Perhaps they will discover it leads to a space far larger than the physical structure of the island. Kind of like the TARDIS in Dr. Who, or Oscar's trashcan on Seasame Street.

[Mysterious Jazz Man]

This thread reminds me of my "Could the island be a Hypersphere" thread. The dogfeathers link that Yung23 provided I was about to post yesterday, don’t know why I didn’t, absolutely not taking any thing away from Yung23 good thing you did post it so we all could share that piece of information! Anyway the dogfeathers site also has many other good links to sites about tesseracts. One of them good sites is,

tetraspace.alkaline.org/introduction.htm (http://tetraspace.alkaline.org/introduction.htm)

Here’s the introduction from the tetraspace site which is pretty interesting I think.

"Many fascinating possibilities exist when a spatial fourth dimension is present. Several types of wheels are possible, very complex machines can be built, and many more shapes are possible. Objects can pass by each other more easily, but they are harder to break into multiple pieces. Energy reduces much faster with distance than in the 3rd dimension, so both light and sound are weaker. Much more things can be compacted into a small space, but it’s much easier to get lost. In this page, I will explore these and many other interesting properties of the fourth dimension. To get started learning about the fourth dimension."

Notice the word Lost in there:)

[Warthawg1]

I numbered my connect four game in a different manner, and then when I shaded the 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 42 slots; I swear I saw the virgin Mary with a goiter.

[bigmouth]

I numbered my connect four game in a different manner, and then when I shaded the 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, and 42 slots; I swear I saw the virgin Mary with a goiter.
Really? I could swear I saw the Walter O'Malley tortilla (http://www.baseballreliquary.org/Omalley.htm)...

One serious question, though: does anyone know the purported date of the Philly Experiment?

[thoughtform]

It supposedly took place on August 12th, 1943.

[bigmouth]

Thanks, thoughtform! For a brief shining moment, I thought I might be able to connect Phillie Experiment with CS's theory. Looks, though, like it was a false alarm.

[drabauer]

CS, I will address the song "You all everybody" and the pattern created by the notes when I have properly fortified myself against another hearing of same.

Keep in mind folks that when you pile one metaphorical mapping atop another, you put a lot of weight on one simple plot element!

[jaystao]

All this talk about stars and what not got me onto the pyrimids of ancient Eqypt and how there geometric positions correlated with the heavenly stars above, some even providing windows that could view specific constelations at 'dated times'. I've advocated a Chthonic/solar relationship on lost and I think this is a major clue to the origins of this ebon/solar relationship. In the game 'broken sword' for instants it was discovered that the pyrimids fit a pattern that also corelated with star positions, in which one of the stars was 'missing' a corresponding pyrimid (this was where the X was found). Theres a lot of talk in the 'extended circles' about the cluster of Orion containing a black hole and which the ancients were somehow emulating in there pyrimid geometry (much of this orion stuff uses diagrams which are similar to the Teresa-act structures).

Also interested in the idea of solar 'temple structures' on LOST, and how a temple to the stars might exist somewhere on the island or the island its self is somekind of temple (I always thought the opening scene with Jack in those bamboo bushes was spiritually cathartic in some way - like some kind of alter).

Question: Is this depicting Ursa Major (the big dipper), or Ursa Miner (the little bear?). I think it is Ursa Miner (so is it reversed?).

Anyway I thought an interesting corelation was that the big dipper is known as The great bear constellation with its handle being the 'dog stars. Remember the episode was 'special' and included Vincent the dog and the Polar bear so I'm sure theres a connection.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/PHYS/islamma/greatBear.gif

However, if it proves to be Ursa Miner (little dipper) another interesting point is....

Heres an interesting point about Ursa Miner...

THE LITTLE BEAR (November) Ursa Minor with Polaris Ok—this is a pretty lame constellation. It looks nothing like a bear—or a “little dipper” for that matter. Nevertheless, it contains the most important star for anyone who ventures away from civilization. You might be lost during the day, but at night Polaris can tell you your latitude (how high above the horizon it is) and exactly which way true north is. All the other stars rotate around it, so if you learn no other star this year—learn this one.

http://www.wavelengthmagazine.com/2000/am00n11.jpg

http://www2.potsdam.edu/PHYS/islamma/Polaris.gif

"there is no latitude" - wheres Polaris? Which way is true north? What does all this mean!!! AAAAAHHH!!!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

So anyone think the island itself is an interactive time capsule?

Kate's box of tricks was a time capsule, so that concept has been referenced allready. Adam and Eve in the cave, as Jays pointed out is like an advanced technology "real" pictogram. Jumping again on Jay's bandwagon - the missing star in the big dipper may be the location of the beings who made the time capsule interactive island. And maybe (to go off the deep end) these parentless misfits were intercepted and brought here intentionally via advanced technologies: tessaract portals while flying on 815.

Is that where we are going with this?

[boonian androphile]

Jay:

An interesting possibility but I will still go with the Big Dipper and by extension Ursa Major. The Big Dipper is just a more visible constellation. Plus the shape of it, I figure, corresponds better to images that CS has been providing. Plus more of the stars, I believe, have been named. Even with a flipping of the Little Dipper would that constellation have been that low in the night sky? Maybe a case for both in one? Polaris is such an important star. Or maybe if the Big Dipper, then the pathway to Polaris is visible through the two stars of the Big Dipper that point in the direction of Polaris. And if we follow the Connect Four analogy, the characters may be traveling from 4 to 8, away from the direction of Polaris, or deeper into their mire. Waiting to see...

[sawyerhasbestlines]

OK, I'm having an early morning intuition about all this.

Let's say you were a life form from another planet - and you received our time capsules NASA sends out into space. Now, let's say you want to communicate back but were more advanced then us. (Movie Contact comes to mind). They would reply to us in our style of sensory communication: visual, touch, sound, etc.

Hang in here. The reason the big dipper is reversed is because that is where they are in relation to us. From their perspective it's not reversed, the missing star is them.

Maybe they are "distant cousins" of this planet and have been traveling back and forth forever. Maybe they put us on earth. They travel through the tessaract time portal. And when they received our NASA message, that was their cue that we are ready for them.

0]

[jaystao]

No aliens. If there is some kind of message being beamed down from out of space (or beamed 'out') than its strictly a human type scenario. Our distant origins - in which case we are the alians having traversed from the heavens, though on a greater level of theory all life having derived possibly from cosmic dabree and incubated on earth is itself 'alien' - a hybrid earth/solar life, now isn't that the greatest example of a cthonic relationship?

On another abstract theory note, we are all children of the Dog star 'mizar', the lost star in the heavens of our inversed dipper.

Incidently if the contellation is Ursa magor than the two pointer stars at the end of the dipper, would be pointing to Polaris. So some brainiac might be able to align the horizon of the constalation rising, with the position of Polaris (thus its distants from the horizon giving us the latitude of the island). Much easier if the constelation turns out to be Ursa Miner (though the big dipper would be more visable in early dusk as seems to be in the shot, with little other stars showing).

But you've already beaten me to this it seems.

[I like to listen]

Jays Tao,
The Little Dipper and the Big Dipper both have 7 star positions. The Grid in reference has 6. The screencap has 6.

The match is not to either Dipper or you would need one additional number in the series 4,8,15,16,23,42 to justify the comparisions to the real Dippers. Reversed or not

So a very important screecap would be the lotto ticket that has seven numbers on it. This does not exist.

The match is between the screencap and the grid. Why not use that as a building block to find other patterns simular, that could be attributed to 6 numbers as presented in the grid.

[jaystao]

I'd like to think of this as a clue directly from the producers to us (either to throw us off track or to put us on the right direction). It just seems to be a very interesing connection wether intentional or not. You guys are all posting to fast for me to keep up, I still haven't had time to research the supposed 'lost dog star' myth whatever that is, or the star Mizar which I think is the one missing from the seven sisters or whatever Ursa miner stars are nick named (little bear as it were).

Edited to point out what Neil wrote earlier:

As a consequence, it would be a wild coincidence (so what else is new?) for Mr. Dipper to give the same appearance, only reversed, from a vantage point on the "other side" looking back toward Earth's home star, Sol.

And, I am guessing that even if that coincidence were to materialize, the missing Mizar position in the Dipper would be filled by Sol itself as you looked back in that direction. I don't think that Sol has the same absolute magnitude as the Mizar system, but I don't think that the difference is enough that Sol would be invisible from Mizar while Mizar would be clearly visible from Sol.

Now that's interesing.

It could lead to some fun. If we suspend disbelief long enough on the issues cited, then obviously we could be seeing a situation in which the survivors of flight 815 have been sprinted across the depths of space (maybe ala Contact) to a site on another world customized to accommodate the residents of Sol's Earth.

SHBL's, you suggested once that the island were some kind of Holographic library. What if this were to true? The others? O.K, just for a little while I'll play, ALIENS ala Contact, disguised holographically as people (which is why they reminded me of the aliens from the movie Cacoon). Now questions. The producers say 'no aliens'. Have the producers said there not on another planet? Well.... who cares what the producers said. Lets get extra-terestrial!

[lostmio]

Altho the tesseract theory is one of several that imo can't be ruled out, the dots or stars needed to connect it to the constellation are not there.

The constellation and the Connect 4 board appear to be two more manifestations of the numbers. They may or may not be any more important than the manifestation on Hurley's dashboard.
That's all we can say for now, anything else is pure spec, altho obviously everyone is eager to tie them into his/her pet theory.

For me it's more than enough to have at long last a reason for the constellation. I'm a happy Loster...

[jaystao]

Case in point. Forgive the breif hysteria. The numbers are everywhere, even written in the stars. O.k, everythings as per usual than. However, the latitude thing in regards to Polaris in defining the location of our castaways maybe relavent. Find Polaris, find the latitude co'ordinate.

[Mysterious Jazz Man]

Ok I found some information that I think is pretty interesting,
It’s from the "Astronomy and Antiquity of Vedic Culture" site. All anti-purgatory theorists may not like the main concept of this but it still got some interesting points for example, this quote " We return to the story of the Chinese monkey, Sun, mentioned in the beginning of this column. The Chinese Southern Dipper consists of six stars in Sagittarius. It is interesting to note that this constellation shares stars with two of the naksatras marking the beginning of the path of the Pitrs."

This story mainly resolves around “The constellations of stars as a road map for the soul's travel after death.” And those with bad karma being punished by demigods for their sin full life’s. And notice the monkey is named SUN!

Anyway here’s the link to the site www.veda.harekrsna.cz/enc...trantq.htm (http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/astrantq.htm)

Here I will post some of more interesting things about this story from the “Astronomy and Antiquity of Vedic Culture site.” Hope you check this out, cheers:)



"Traditional chinese stories tell of a monkey named Sun who goes through remarkable adventures. In one story, two "harpooners of death" capture him, claiming he has reached the limit of his destiny on earth and is due to be taken to the underworld. The story's translator tells us that according to the Chinese the constellation Nan Teou, the Southern Dipper, decides everyone's death, and the harpooners of death carry out the decision.
In my last column I compared Vedic ideas about time with similar ideas found in cultures around the world. We saw that many cultures share highly specific Vedic thoughts about how long ancient people lived and what happened in ancient human societies. This suggests that an ancient cultural tradition existed worldwide, hinted at today in many cultures through fragmentary and poorly understood memories but spoken of in detail in the Vedic writings.
In this column we turn from time to space. And we find that ancient traditions about the layout of the universe bear similar traces of a common cultural background.
Vedic literature divides the visible heavens into regions, which transmigrating souls are said to reach according to their karma. We can think of the constellations of stars as a road map for the soul's travel after death. First I shall describe this map. Then I shall give some evidence that people in old cultures all over the world had a similar cosmic map, often agreeing with the Vedic map in many minute details.
To describe this map I need to introduce some basic ideas from astronomy. In both Indian and Western astronomy, the lines of latitude and longitude on the earth are projected onto the sky and set into a daily spin about the polar axis, so that to an observer on earth they seem to rotate once a day with the stars. This gives us a celestial coordinate system in which each star has a latitude, called its declination, and a longitude, called its right ascension.
We can think of the stars as points on a huge imaginary sphere, called the celestial sphere, surrounding the earth. Just as the earth has a northern and southern hemisphere separated by the equator, so does the celestial sphere."

[LostInWilderness]

I sincerely doubt they are on another planet. Same looking sun, moon, rotation period, gravity, etc. It sure seems like Earth, so I'm sticking with Earth.

[drabauer]

Jays, just a bit of support for the Vedic origins idea. Having studied the history of music theory, I can tell you that Plato's original detailing of the harmonic proportions of the universe come indirectly from the Vedas, which influenced all other Mediterranean cultures. And let us not forget that Sanskrit - the language of the Vedas - is a root Indo-European language directly related to German and other north European languages.

It has always been my hunch that the knowledge of the Vedas was spread far and wide, even if Hinduism only made it to Indonesia (one must only recall that the Buddha was Indian to appreciate the spread of Indian knowledge northward).

[Hodgepodge]

I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread, so I'm printing it so I can during lunch. But I'd like to comment on this.


LostInWilderness says:I sincerely doubt they are on another planet. Same looking sun, moon, rotation period, gravity, etc. It sure seems like Earth, so I'm sticking with Earth.I agree as well LIW! But we do have a sun moon rotation period problem. There's been speculaltion in the A Wrinkle in Time thread that maybe time isn't the same on the island. We do have the idea that 40 days equalling 8 months. Just a thought! Now, I'll get back to reading the complete thread.

[bigmouth]

The Little Dipper and the Big Dipper both have 7 star positions. The Grid in reference has 6. The screencap has 6.
Actually, this jibes rather well with some of the mythology of the show. I've long believed that the Book of Enoch (aka the "lost" text) is highly relevant to Lost. It describes a race of divine beings that fell to earth and taught humanity all manner of ancient technological secrets. Some believe these beings built the pyramids and are the source of legends re Atlantis.

Anyway, some new age types have built an entire pseudo-science upon the mythical foundations of Enoch. Of particular relevance here, these pseudo-scientists predict that we're about to enter a new era of human consciousness. The first sign of this transition? The handle of the big dipper will be "broken" as the seventh star is abducted.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Jays, actually I never used the word "alien" but I used the emoticon for sarcastic effect. I was suggesting that who ever is communicating could be our long lost earthling reletives.

Which reminds me of African (bushmen?) mythology. I vaguely remember learning that if you asked a particular indigineous African tribe their origin, they drew our solar system in the sand with a stick, and pointed to a star. At the time I heard this, scientists didn't know of the star, and the African story sort of got blown off and Westerners instead focused on how the hell could these people know so many stars in our solar system that aren't visible to the eye or with telescopes, etc.

Anyway, years later, scientist finally *discovered* their star.

[NeillT006]

OK.

It's NOT the big dipper.

So stop with counting stars already.

What it appears to be is the Southern Dipper, modified.

I was surprised to find that there is a Southern Dipper. But apparently there is. It has 6 stars by the way.

I am posting below two images. One is the Southern Dipper as shown on a web site dealing with celestial matters.

The second image I have processed. I "flipped" the image (from top to bottom). Then, I rotated the image left 30 degrees. That rotation interested me because it approximates how much I had to rotate the matrix to the right to get it to match up with the screen cap.

The result looks a whole lot like our screen shot. Notice the two little stars just beyond the top-left of the cup of the dipper (in the screen shot). You will also see them in the processed image of the Sothern Dipper.

I don't know what any of this means.

But, I thought it best to keep the conversation on the right track.

N

ORIGINAL:

http://members.aol.com/dbareports/southerndipper.jpg

PROCESSED IMAGE:

http://members.aol.com/dbareports/southerndipflip.jpg

SCREENCAP IMAGE:

http://members.aol.com/dbareports/loststars.jpg

[LostInWilderness]

Looks to me like the screencap is still missing a prominent star that is either the last star in the handle or a star along the much longer handle.

[NeillT006]

Looks to me like the screencap is still missing a prominent star that is either the last star in the handle or a star along the much longer handle.

Well, it looks like the screencap is missing lots of stars.

Is this because the TPTB processed the image so that we would see only that which we are intended to see?

Or was it cloudy?

Or maybe there was peanut butter on the lens.

I don't know. But I am saying that this is clearly the Southern Dipper.

Now, I skipped over it because I wanted to straighten out the Big Dipper stuff, but (as one would expect) there is a whole lot of mythology attached to the Southern Dipper. I am sure we will hear all about. ;)

Take it away Jays.

N.

[bigmouth]

OK.

It's NOT the big dipper.

So stop with counting stars already.

DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!

Seriously, Neil, I appreciate it's your theory, and a brilliant(!!!) one at that. And while you've introduced some intriguing evidence, I don't think it justifies that level of certainty in your post.

[NeillT006]

I don't think it justifies that level of certainty in your post

Are you certain?

N.

[bigmouth]

Are you certain?
Nope. But point well taken. I just thought your attempt to shut off dialogue was a little...unfriendly. But kudos again on a brilliant theory. Hope you don't mind, but I've already linked to it over on the fuselage.

[Chance Gardener]

Certainly.

[NeillT006]

Nope. But point well taken. I just thought your attempt to shut off dialogue was a little...unfriendly. But kudos again on a brilliant theory. Hope you don't mind, but I've already linked to it over on the fuselage.

Don't mistake my desire to save others' valuable energies as unfriendliness. Think, benevolent regard for others.

Aside from being friendly, I am also cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

(I'm trying to make a good impression here, awsecond, so play along)

Anyway, thanks for linking to The Fuselage. I wanted to do that myself but some, errr, legal entanglements have precluded my appearance there (see above comment). They have some bright folks there and I would love their input. Plus, I am proud of the things that we, as a group, accomplish, and I wanted to show off a bit (hey, I'm only human).

N.

[LostInWilderness]

It looks to me like they purposefully edited out stars that would confuse the Southern Dipper. I also agree that your grid works better with the Southern Dipper. This is finally back on track.

[jaystao]

Agreed Neil, this looks the part. It seems to tie in well with the location and in some parts it purtains to mythology that also might be relavent.

Six stars often referred to as the "Southern Dipper"
Sagittarius lies just to the east of Scorpio and can best seen in Japan shining in the lower regions of the southern summer skies. Among Sagittarius' stars are six that form the shape of a dipper. These are known in the West as the "Milk Dipper" that collects the "milk" flowing through the Milky Way. Another four stars are below the dipper, which form the bow and arrow being used by Sagittarius' archer. Sagittarius is most beautiful in summer. Moreover, the Milky Way also glows brightest in the area around the constellation and can be seen quite clearly in outer suburban areas. However, as the constellation has only one 2 magnitude star and the rest are 3 magnitude stars, it is difficult to discern how the constellation came to be seen as a centaur firing an arrow at the neighboring scorpion

There alot of stuff concerning the southern dipper however I like the idea that it is connected to chinese philosophical mythology (which in corresponding with other theories can also be poured into the Egyption, polynesion, Vedic, Aryan and North Amarican melting pots.

The Big Dipper Who Decrees Death13

'Mysterious Warrior" is the general name of the seven northern constellations, among which is the Dipper constellation. Daoism, saying that "the Southern Dipper decrees life and the Northern decrees death", attaches much importance to the worship of the Dipper stars. From entering the womb, a man's destiny is transferred from the Southern Dipper to the Northern Dipper. Therefore, he who prays for longevity must worship the Great Perfect Warrior Emperor.

Exerts from: The perfect Warrior (http://www.eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/immortals&immortalism/pg2-4-3-1.asp)

[clayseason1]

I think you included a star that is not part of the southern dipper.

I think this is the southern dipper

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/invertedsoutherndipper.jpg

Sagittarius (http://tagoshu.cool.ne.jp/astro_photos/constellations/sgr-desc-e.html)

[jaystao]

http://tagoshu.cool.ne.jp/astro_photos/constellations/img/sgr-dipper.jpg

Agreed. But the last star of the Southern dipper is a red spectrumed star. Might this not show in a low horizon atmousphere? What is the effect of the atmousphere in terms of viewing stars? Also if the stars were rising they would appear diferently if they were setting? Could the inverse be because they were setting rather than rising? If they were seen perhaps in the Southern Hemisphere this might be the case, seen setting towards the coasts of Japan (who might in turn see them rising). Since I'm not an astronomer I don't know.

Edited to add.

http://tagoshu.cool.ne.jp/astro_photos/constellations/img/sgr-teapot.jpg
(teapot and spoon).

But, there is no spoon?

[LostInWilderness]

So now we have the Southern Dipper set up as an opposite of the Big Dipper. Assuming Neill's grid does represent the Southern Dipper, there's got to be more too it than that.

Polar Bears link to the Big Dipper. Is Lock the Hunter?

[clayseason1]

Jaystao - I don't know the answers to your questions....yet. :p

I still think this is the reverse of a segment of ursa major (or the big dipper without the star mizar(sp?)).

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/loststars.jpg

[jaystao]

Some cosmic driftwood to ponder....

SOURCE OF ANCIENT CHINESE SUPERNOVA LOCATED BY CHANDRA
-------------------------
In the spring of 386 AD, Chinese star watchers spotted a new object in the constellation they knew as "The Southern Dipper", what we call Sagittarius. That "guest star" faded after three months and was lost from sight, but not from history. Now, evidence from the Chandra X-ray Observatory proves that this supernova produced a pulsar which shines brightly in the X-ray band. Astronomers from Canada, Japan and the U.S. released this evidence at the winter meeting of the American Astronomical Society convened this week.

[yung23]

why didn't we all go through this after special aired ?

we didnt' need Neils find for this discussion did we ?

still stunned...

so now we think it has something to do with actual constellations ?

gonna re-read this thread..

[NeillT006]

however I like the idea that it is connected to chinese philosophical mythology

Somehow, I knew you would. ;)

N.

[NeillT006]

For personal reasons, I would prefer to refer to "the grid" as "the matrix."

matrix
n 1: a rectangular array of elements (or entries) set out by rows and columns

Now, if I can work Freud back into this, I'll be back in business. :rollin

N.

[boonian androphile]

I agree from Clayseason that we are still probably dealing with a reversed variation of the Big Dipper. I was willing to go with the concept that the asterism was to represent both the big dipper and by extension ursa major in the north and the milk dipper and by extension sagittarius in the south. A dual identity would bring about a cool contest between the bear of the north and the hunter of the south. And I still like this idea. However, on one of the many internet sites I raided I found not one but two quotes:

"The following five members of the constellation Sagittarius can be interpreted as an inverted dipper in the milky way: zeta Sgr; tau Sgr; sigma Sgr; phi Sgr; and lambda Sgr. This asteration is also known as the tea pot..."

"...stars of the Milk Dipper: Tau Sagittarii; Ascella; Nunki; Phi Sagittarii; Kaus Borealis..."

So at least two sites are indicating that only five stars make up the milk or southern dipper. However, other images without direct quotes, draw an extra line from the lambda Sgr which is also, I guess, the Kaus Borealis, to some nearby star whose name I didnt write down. Does this mean that some people say six stars not just five? Havent a clue.

A personal note: I have a theory coming up that rather requires the big dipper and the connect four matrix to be right, so if any more doubt develops over the identity of this backwards asterism, I will have to venture forth into the cyberwilderness again and shine my flashlight at the stars. And I dont want to do that!

Even if the asterism is the big dipper in reverse, the milk dipper upside-down, or both (as only writers can present such things ), there is regardless something wrong with this picture. The stars are misaligned. This is not the age of Aquarius.