+ Freud meets the Matrix?

[NeillT006]

“Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the feeling and welfare of others.

There are ten general symptoms:

not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or rights.

They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness, failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility, and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of others are traits of the antisocial personality.

Psychotherapy, group therapy, and family therapy are common treatments. The effects of medical treatment are inconclusive.

Unfortunately, most people with Antisocial Personality Disorder reject treatment.

Therefore, recovery rates are low.”

Perhaps what is called for is total emersion in a wildly different and threatening environment intentionally structured to breakdown and modify behavior.

But, how to do this effectively without invoking the old punch line, ”the operation was a success, but the patient died”?

Virtual reality?

I am starting to toy with the idea that island is a digital construct into which persons manifesting various forms of sociopathic behavior are interjected for therapeutical reasons. Sort of Sigmund Freud meets the Matrix.

Obviously this would take one heck of a lot of computing power, but we are talking science fiction here.

But if you accept the premise .....

Criminals “sentenced” to the island?

Patients who either currently are or threaten to become dysfunctional?

Not all present need to fall into those descriptions. Some might be therapists or sub rosa guides. Some might themselves be constructs. Others might be persons who participate voluntarily to escape for a time the unfortunate conditions of their real world existence.

And, of course, technology being technology, there would be the possibility of unexpected glitches. Could certain personalities become trapped, or the construct retain the echoes of prior participants? Could there be incongruities caused by the bleed over of different scenarios?

Given the aforementioned amount of computing power that would be required to pull this all off, perhaps it would not be surprising to find a budding AI, with its own agenda, manifesting itself in various ways.

Even as monsters.

Neill

Lacenaire has provided a terrific substantive outline of this thread, making navigation of its many twists and turns somewhat less forbidding, and once again reminding me that no pleasure is greater than one shared.

Lac's Summary and Index (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=452495&postcount=714)

N.

Want to read threads dealing with related ideas? CLICK HERE (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27023)

[Wes Cohn]

Perhaps "Rene Descartes meets Sigmund Freud in The Matrix for a reading of John Milton's Paradise Lost" is a more encompassing heading . . .

Your suggestion fascinates.

What if the "sub rosa guides" occasionally visit "exits" from the system? -- could an in-therapy character perhaps discover one of these?

[JacksGirlfriend]

Wow, Neil.

I am amazed by this. We once had a theory making reference to a plane filled with people exhibiting psychotic behavior, but this is truly beyond the scope of that. In the earlier days of the board there were quite a few people thinking in psychological terms. We've since diverted in many directions.

I'm assuming in your theory these people are all strangers. That would explain the distance between Walt and Michael, the conflict between Sun and Jin and the so-called attraction between Boone and Shannon. It would also explain mysterious crashing noises, pilots being yanked from trees, whispering voices in the jungle. The theory also offers a chance for damaged people to find what they seek most in life (Locke's ability to walk) and a place to grapple with their deepest fears (Charlie's failure to save Claire perhaps translates into losing a brother to drug addiction?). It also offers redemption (Charlie "coming back from the dead" after his hanging). In essence, anything can happen here.

At present I'm still not ready to relinquish my alternate dimension delusions because they intrigue me and offer the kinds of things I was hoping to see, but this one offers a lot of potential. I'll never get Vikings with this, but I can definitely see where it works. I would like to hear what else is on your mind. I can actually see a theory like this explaining just about everything we've seen and even though it's not my personal choice (for now) I can also see it being right. I could possibly jump on the band wagon with this one and if that's the case, I'll buy you a drink.

Where have you been hiding, Neil? I saw you've only posted once since November. You're obviously a man with ideas. Why haven't we seen more?

JacksGirl

[Wes Cohn]

Yes, I confess a jealousy for the way this theory plunges into psychological convolutions -- whereas my own was rather stuck in what philosophers term "the Gross Realm," or the tangible, material world within which bodies and matter collude.

There are insights here, simply phrased, that vibrate with potential.

JG:

Don't so swiftly rule out your Vikings. Might not the confrontation of adolescent fantasy be among the island's oeuvre of sociopathic remedies?


Edit:

It's a universal dictum that sanity and clarity are synonymous; as philosophical investigation and epistemological rumination approach comprehension and complexity, they concordantly approach accessable, sensical and easily-conveyed rationality. Thus, "higher realms" of thought -- if truly such -- are never difficult to understand, because the truths of their high complexity are readily evident (and knowledge thus approximates the Buddhist aphorism, "You've come here to learn what you already know.").

Judging speculation according to this "sense" of relative accessability, I can say that your theory, Neil, is so far the most sensible and understandable and insightful I've come into contact with.

It "feels" very plausible and accurate.

[Wes Cohn]

I hereby bestow the following emblem for use by all adherents of the Neill theory:

http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/neill.jpg

[JacksGirlfriend]

Don't so swiftly rule out your Vikings. Might not the confrontation of adolescent fantasy be among the island's oeuvre of sociopathic remedies?

Gosh, Wes, if I weren't so secure in my womanhood I might think you were poking fun at my adolescent fantasies. Believe me there is nothing adolescent about them. I may not have enough real world experience in this realm, but I can guarantee my fantasy life is alive and well. Viking... pirates... a girl can dream right?

Yes, the more I think about Neil's theory, the more I think it could work. It wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but I think we can use it to explain just about everything. I'd like to hear more from Neil. Let's just hope he doesn't vanish or take another month long hiatus before he can explain everything on his mind.

JacksGirl

[Wes Cohn]

I insulted you without intending to. My apologies, kind madame.

[JacksGirlfriend]

No, you didn't insult me. I thought it was kind of cute.

JacksGirl

[rosalind711]

wow that makes a lot of sense. I was just telling a friend last night how I thought Kate was a sociopath.

[drypelia]

It's wierd, but I like it. I like it because it explains why people just keep coming on back to the (ssshhhhh!!!) purgatory theory. Here you have a group of people sent off to be redeemed and cleansed of their illness (sins). Folks can be forgiven for seeing dead people in Purgatory instead of live people in a treatment facility.

Maybe Danielle was a failed effort at treatment. Maybe the Others are the therapists. Maybe Claire was removed temporarily for the birth of her baby. Hmmmmmm.

Since all personality disorders have about the same treatment sucess rate, let's add the rest of them. I'm sure everyone on the island can fall into at least one catagory:

Paranoid
Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a distrust of others and a constant suspicion that people around you have sinister motives. People with this disorder tend to have excessive trust in their own knowledge and abilities and usually avoid close relationships with others. They search for hidden meanings in everything and read hostile intentions into the actions of others. They are quick to challenge the loyalties of friends and loved ones and often appear cold and distant to others. They usually shift blame to others and tend to carry long grudges.

Schizoid
People with schizoid personality disorder avoid relationships and do not show much emotion. They genuinely prefer to be alone and do not secretly wish for popularity. They tend to seek jobs that require little social contact. Their social skills are often weak and they do not show a need for attention or acceptance. They are perceived as humorless and distant and often are termed "loners."

Schizotypal
Many believe that schizotypal personality disorder represents mild schizophrenia. The disorder is characterized by odd forms of thinking and perceiving, and individuals with this disorder often seek isolation from others. They sometimes believe to have extra sensory ability or that unrelated events relate to them in some important way. They generally engage in eccentric behavior and have difficulty concentrating for long periods of time. Their speech is often over elaborate and difficult to follow.

Antisocial
A common misconception is that antisocial personality disorder refers to people who have poor social skills. The opposite is often the case. Instead, antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of conscience. People with this disorder are prone to criminal behavior, believing that their victims are weak and deserving of being taken advantage of. They tend to lie and steal. Often, they are careless with money and take action without thinking about consequences. They are often agressive and are much more concerned with their own needs than the needs of others.

Borderline
Borderline personality disorder is characterized by mood instability and poor self-image. People with this disorder are prone to constant mood swings and bouts of anger. Often, they will take their anger out on themselves, causing themselves injury. Suicidal threats and actions are not uncommon. They think in very black and white terms and often form intense, conflict-ridden relationships. They are quick to anger when their expectations are not met.

Histrionic
People with histrionic personality disorder are constant attention seekers. They need to be the center of attention all the time, often interrupting others in order to dominate the conversation. They use grandiose language to describe everyday events and seek constant praise. They may dress provocatively or exaggerate illnesses in order to gain attention. They also tend to exaggerate friendships and relationships, believing that everyone loves them. They are often manipulative.

Narcissistic
Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by self-centeredness. Like histrionic disorder, people with this disorder seek attention and praise. They exaggerate their achievements, expecting others to recognize them as being superior. They tend to be choosy about picking friends, since they believe that not just anyone is worthy of being their friend. They tend to make good first impressions, yet have difficulty maintaining long-lasting relationships. They are generally uninterested in the feelings of others and may take advantage of them.

Avoidant
Avoidant personality disorder is characterized by extreme social anxiety. People with this disorder often feel inadequate, avoid social situations, and seek out jobs with little contact with others. They are fearful of being rejected and worry about embarassing themselves in front of others. They exaggerate the potential difficulties of new situations to rationalize avoiding them. Often, they will create fantasy worlds to substitute for the real one. Unlike schizoid personality disorder, avoidant people yearn for social relations yet feel they are unable to obtain them. They are frequently depressed and have low self-confidence.

Dependent
Dependent personality disorder is characterized by a need to be taken care of. People with this disorder tend to cling to people and fear losing them. They may become suicidal when a break-up is imminent. They tend to let others make important decisions for them and often jump from relationship to relationship. They often remain in abusive relationships. They are overly sensitive to disapproval. They often feel helpless and depressed.

Obsessive-Compulsive
Obsessive-Compulsive personality disorder is similar to obsessive-compulsive anxiety disorder. People with this disorder are overly focused on orderliness and perfection. Their need to do everything "right" often interferes with their productivity. They tend to get caught up in the details and miss the bigger picture. They set unreasonably high standards for themselves and others, and tend to be very critical of others when they do not live up to these high standards. They avoid working in teams, believing others to be too careless or incompetent. They avoid making decisions because they fear making mistakes and are rarely generous with their time or money. They often have difficulty expressing emotion.

Locke is probably schizoid.
Jack - paranoid?
Charlie seems dependent.
Kate and Sawyer? Antisocial, narcissistic, paranoid stew.

Rose and Hurley strike me as guides. They're present and interacting with the others, but not involved in the fray.

Still can't quite place the others that we know something about. Boone seems borderline. At this point I don't see Sayid as a guide, but I can't get satisfied with another catagory for him.

Need more time to think......

dry

[drabauer]

Editing this post because apparently drypelia and I wrote ours at the same time (or I wouldn't have repeated hers).

I will add that mental health is my "family business," (like Jack), so I am sensitive as to how the abstract categories dry listed are applied. There is a lot of controversy regarding just what is and isn't a Personality Disorder, as there is a lot on new evidence on which disorders have biological components (most of those listed above) and which have a more complicated etiology (borderline, narcissism). So keep in mind that my post refers to observation and therapy in the field. ;)

I am always excited by psychological theories, but I get nervous when people toss around labels, etc. Given what we know, I can't say that anyone on the island exhibits obvious sociopathic behavior; but that remains to be seen, because a true sociopath may be a good mimic and pass for some time in a group. If you want to get down-and-dirty with DSM-IV, you do have a lot of possible diagnoses, however. For one, nearly everyone would be suffering from PTSD. The only one who hasn't exhibited any signs of it is Walt, which is a warning sign in itself (or perhaps just because kids are resilient).

Here is my armchair analysis of the main characters:

Jack-neurotic (actually, most of us are, it's quite normal), likely depressed about his father before the added PTSD of the crash.

Kate-she has empathy, so she's not a sociopath. And she doesn't exhibit BPD (borderline personality disorder). I would say she's mixed up (needs therapy) but is not a candidate for medication. We need to know more to judge.

Locke-Possibly bipolar. The true bipolar has variable episodes of mania and deep depression, with mania characterized by misjuding reality and assuming that one has resources (money, power, intellectual capacity) beyond the norm. So far he DOES seem to function well, however. So who's to say he's out-of-touch with his environment? Yet on the mainland he may have been.

Michael--seems OK so far.

Jin--seems abusive and controlling. Could be the neurotic results of abuse, could be BPD.

Sun--seems depressed, but trying to develop coping mechanisms (gardening, reaching out to others)

Shannon--depressed, narcissistic. Otherwise normal.

Boone--possibly narcissistic. DEFINITELY a possibility for BPD, characterized by being helpful and charming one moment and then turning in anger on those he's close to. Boone and Shannon bear the marks of a co-dependent relationship.

Sayid--no problems that I can see, other than a (neurotic) projection of his own past onto his encounter with Sawyer.

Rose--depressed, but with a good understanding of this, and good coping mechanisms.

Charlie--deeply depressed, possibly suicidal, with touches of the hysteric. Otherwise normal.

Hurley--no problems I can see, other than simple neurosis.

Sawyer--he's fun. Narcissistic, possibly borderline. He could be a sociopath IF we don't believe the remorse and confusion he's shown.

OK, why have a bothered with all this? True APD is biological in origin (of course this is controversial, but there is mounting evidence), as the patient lacks the ability for empathy and remorse. That is, it's a kind of emotional autism. This is not true, as far as is known, for BPD and other personality disorders. Psychosis has a biological component and is very different. Depending on its severity, there are many treatments available that allow sufferers to live communally.

And none of this disputes the "Matrix" theory, I just have a bug up my ass about people tossing around terms from the DSM.

[NeillT006]

Dr:

So I am guessing that what you are saying is that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was Bipolar Bear?

N.

[drabauer]

Neill: very funny. But I hate to tell you that joke has appeared twice before on these boards!

Ah, the weight of history!

[drypelia]

Didn't know that APD was considered biological in origin and the other PD's are not. Maybe science just doesn't know enough about any personality disorders yet. Also didn't mean to push anybody's buttons, dr.

I was bringing in the other disorders simply as a discussion tool. If they're on the island for some sort of treatment, then what might each one be getting treated for? And I was making the assumption that you wouldn't go to all this trouble to treat someone for garden-variety neurosis, so, given what we know about the Lost ones so far, what sort of rather severe disorder might they be in treatment for?

That said, not a single one of them actually strikes me as having any personality disorder. Narcissism is evident, but not really Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Same goes for all the other disorders. Plenty of paranoia to go around, but under the circumstances that seems like a reasonable response. Even Locke, who seems like someone with some reality issues, can't really be pinned down to a personality disorder. There's no reason to ship him off to the Matrix Treatment Facility for something like bi-polar - that can be treated reasonably well right here at home. Since personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat (usually because the patient quits), that seems like the most likely diagnosis for someone sent to the MTF. If there are other possibilities, bring 'em on!

dry

[NeillT006]

Drypelia:

I see Locke as one who may have bought his way into the experience as a break from the reality of his handicap.

N.

[JacksGirlfriend]

not a single one of them actually strikes me as having any personality disorder.

Of course not. If we go on the assumption they're undergoing some kind of treatment for their disorders, or perhaps even an experiment for some other reason, then they would appear perfectly fine. We're seeing all of this from their perspectives and, according to them, they're all fine and dandy. It's the rest of the world that has problems.

Dry: Personally I loved everything you said, particularly about Claire being removed to have the baby. Suddenly the whole conspiracy makes sense.

dr - keep those thoughts coming. It's always nice to have a resident expert.

Neil - stand up in your spare time?

JacksGirl

[drabauer]

No problem dry, I had written my post to Neill originally, then felt I had to respond to the list. As you can imagine, the whole issue of PDs is a hornet's nest in contemporary psychology/psychiatry, and I by no means am as current as a practioner would be.
Maybe science just doesn't know enough about any personality disorders yet.

This is indisputably true!

I was bringing in the other disorders simply as a discussion tool. If they're on the island for some sort of treatment, then what might each one be getting treated for? And I was making the assumption that you wouldn't go to all this trouble to treat someone for garden-variety neurosis, so, given what we know about the Lost ones so far, what sort of rather severe disorder might they be in treatment for?

Absolutely, I see your point. So I guess I'm passive-aggressively voting no on Neill's idea, because I don't see too many candidates for such a severe therapy. I would just go whole-hog for a "scientific experiment" in that case, and forget the therapeutic angle.

Since personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat (usually because the patient quits), that seems like the most likely diagnosis for someone sent to the MTF. If there are other possibilities, bring 'em on!


Here again I'd agree. Since part of most PDs is a hostile and suspicious attitude toward any authority figure, much less a doctor or therapist, they ARE the most difficult to treat. But I have enjoyed this discussion, because I actually think it's more interesting to look at the broad range of personality types and coping mechanisms the castaways have. That is, they not only represent different ages, occupations and ethnicities, they have completely different ways of dealing with the stress of their situation, and of the secrets they all carry. If they all had PDs then it would be all fighting all the time :)

[drypelia]

Oooooooooooo!!!! Now I'm starting to think it would be cool to have a separate discussion area just for armchair psychoanalysis!

Trouble is, you need a little more backstory than we have in order to get very far. We know Locke was in a wheelchair and hates to have someone tell him what he can't do, but how did he become so flat-out confident of his abilities? Even people who are very good at something will often have a lot of self-doubt (like Jack). So what did Locke's mother tell him about himself? Did she tell him he was brilliant and invincible and he believed it, or did she tell him he was an incompetent idiot and he's spent his whole life proving her wrong (and yes, I know his mother might have been a wonderful, grounded human being)? I lean toward the second possibility. The man is so driven to show what he can do, while making it look like it's nothing to him.

And of course, if refusing to acknowledge your limitations is his favorite coping mechanism, Locke sure landed in the right place! Or the place got the right man. Still haven't decided which is more accurate ;)

dry

[Wes Cohn]

http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/neill.jpg

[Wynter Zera]

I've been stomping the whole "monster from the ID" theory for some time now. This is right in line with it.

[sexy baby mama]

I love this theory, cause it goes in line with what I've been thinking of for awhile.

And, as an aside, I had a dream about the ending of Lost, and it was creepy, but the main idea was that it was SOME sort of conspiracy to "get rid of" or "treat" people which "don't fit in any other category." (Those were specifically the words used in my dream.) Now, I know psychologists are not always in the business of dream interpretation, but it seems to me that people with personality disorders would not fit neatly into any categories or "boxes" we "NORMAL" people set up. I.e., they don't behave the way we expect them to, or want them to.

This theory also fits well if we see Ethan as a "guide" who removed Claire - Charlie may not understand why, and so from his perspective the situation would seem menacing. (Didn't he show up at the most opertune moments, just when people were getting tired of boar, Ethan shows up with rabbits, or rodents, or whatever he said.) Weird.

Congrats Neill!!! I don't know if this is where the writers are going, but if they are, they should pay you!

[drabauer]

Drypelia, I would second that vote for a psychoanalysis thread (although my theory "Lost is a psychoanalytic journey" was deleted weaks ago as nobody added to it :(

Support for you notion that Locke and others may be living out their pasts comes in the most recent interview with one of the producers, in which he says the flashbacks will continue indefinitely, and states that he sees each character as a "series" unto him/herself.

[morbius47]

Ah, crap. If we keep seeing theories like this I'm gonna get sucked into thinking and using my limited brain capacity on this stuff.
On second thought I shall abstain and simply say nice theory.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Come on, Morb, a little thinking is good for you. Nothing to add?

JacksGirl

[LostHorizon]

This is Amazing.... I was thinking of this same type of theory that the whole Island is some sort of giant VR program that the characters are sent to, but not for thereputic reasons , but for gaming ( an Ultimate on-line game ala "Survivor" ), the difference is that The charcters won't know that they are in a game, to make it more "Real".
I came to the same conclusions over at the "Physics of the Plane Crash" Thread, which would easily explain how the plane broke up in THREE pieces, and how there managed to be even survivors. Also explains the polar bear and the Strange Monster too, among other things....

[DriftWood]

Maybe Freud also planted the poisoned sushi.

[LostHorizon]

"Poisoned Sushi"? Which episode?

[rosalind711]

I would also add opiod dependent to charlie's list. He may currently be out of withdrawal, but still has addiction issues that need worked out. Plus some subscribe to the one an addict always an addict philosophy, which is seemingly true for opiate addicts.

[Private Ryan]

I was clinging to my "Jacob's Ladder" idea, but after reading this, I think I'm pretty much converted.

Whether each person was sent to this place for therapy, ie Jin's anger management, or Charlie's drug rehab ..etc, or whether they may have paid to get in, ie Locke after training for years and then being told that he can not go on his Walkabout, but they could all have a reason to get in.

This theory can also explain many things, whether they be matrix anomalies or if they were purposely injected. For example, I picture the real people lying in something like a hospital bed, plugged in somehow to the matrix, with the "medical staff" talking occasionally, which could be the whispering that people in the Matrix hear, ie Sayid/French woman.

Or when the tide comes in just like "someone flicked on a switch"

Or, like someone already mentioned, when Claire was removed due to her real life pregnancy. And, when she said that someone attacked her while she was sleeping, probing her stomach, that could have been a real life doctor keeping an eye on her pregnancy, thus telling the Matrix staff that she needs to be pulled out.

If this is an early, somewhat experimental version of the "Neill006 Matrix", there still could be some problems, like the "Monster" for example. Or, perhaps the French woman (who in reality is here because of the trouble she is having coping with the loss of her baby, Alex) was one of the first people in the Matrix, but due to some completely unforeseen technical reason, they can not unplug her without risking her real life life.

Adam and Eve could either be unfortunate accidents with very very early versions of the Matrix, ie Neill 1.0, or simply props. Some of the other cast members could also be Tech staff, like Hurley, hired/sent to keep a closer eye on things.

Oh, by the way, not sure if it's been discussed here or not, but has anyone seen the movie Jacob's Ladder? (*movie spoiler*) In which Tim Robbin's character supposedly left the war in Vietnam, lived on for years but was always seeing very weird things, and having some odd mental problems, but in the end, he was still in Vietnam, wounded/unconscious in a field hospital. I was trying to piece something similar to that in which someone in the crash was in a coma, in a hospital, never regaining consciouses from a plane crash.

Anyway, I'm for the Matrix idea.

PS, I'm sure Kate has no real life problems, but they put her on the brochure to help pursued people to pay the $43,500 to get into the matrix, lol.

[yung23]

no offence to all here really, but these are all ideas everone probaly had after watching the pilot, but no body wanted to think that JJ would simply do another Matrix ( I love that movie, I'm about to watch it again )..
or a " dream " series, too much is possible, and all of it much too easy to answer... oh that was a program..

I'm looking to be convinced otherwise here, I'm NOT trashing this idea.... I had the same thought when they all simply lived after crashing... c'mon they would've been mince meat !!!




knock knock

[JacksGirlfriend]

I want details.

JacksGirl

[Wynter Zera]

Just to give your theory a jolt, the matrix ripped directly from an age old philisophical debate.Descartes addresses it in his "Meditations on First Philosophy".

The argument for universal doubt:

A. The dream argument:

1. I often have perceptions very much like the ones I usually have in sensation while I am dreaming.

2. There are no definite signs to distinguish dream experience from waking experience.

therefore,

3. It is possible that I am dreaming right now and that all of my perceptions are false

B. Objection to the dream argument:

1. It could be argued that the images we form in dreams can only be composed of bits and pieces of real experience combined in novel ways.

therefore,

2. Although we have reason to doubt the surface perceptual qualities of our perception, we have no reason to doubt the properties that we perceive the basic components of our experience to have. (In particular, there is no reason to doubt the mathematical properties that material bodies in general have.)


ripped from here. (http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/medol.htm)

[Sarahs Monkey]

Now that is philosophy. ^

[JacksGirlfriend]

Now that is philosophy.

It might be philosophy but it isn't helpful. I want to find the clear concrete line that separates perception from reality here. I need to know what is "real" and what isn't.

I will accept anything they dish out to me in this show as long as it is placed within the boundaries they have set for it. There have to be guidelines imposed, some kind of structure where everything proposed fits inside and works its magic. Whether it's science or pseudo-science doesn't really matter to me as long as the structure and framework remain consistent.

From what I've seen they keep changing the rules and that doesn't make me happy. I have no problem with fluidity, with imagination, with mystery or shock value, but when I can't trust anything I see and when I doubt every word and action, I begin to wonder what the purpose of that is.

I want to know what the "reality" of this show is. I'll take any form of that reality. I just want consistency and I want to trust something.

JacksGirl

[NeillT006]

(OK, let's try this again)

You certainly are obsessive about this rule thing. Maybe I need to get you a ticket on the next plane.

I am sure that you understand (and I do not mean this as any sort of insult) that there is a difference between "not knowing what the rules are" and "there are no rules."

What you are no doubt experiencing is the unsettling sense of discontinuity that occurs when orthodoxy is challenged and found wanting, but the new order remains frustratingly beyond one's grasp.

You could retreat to the comfort of what you know. This is apparently what occurred when Einstein rejected the foundations of quantum theory ("God does not play dice with the universe" -- sound familiar?), arguably bringing to a close that episode of his life as the diviner of truth.

You wouldn't want to do that, would ya?

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/no.gif

[JacksGirlfriend]

Neil - What are you trying to do to me here? Come on. Don't change your mind... talk to me.

JacksGirl

[NeillT006]

Sorry, I was experiencing a discontinuity of my own.

Had trouble trying to get my icon posted, then when trying to center the image in the text, wipped out my whole post.

Did you know that HTML COMMENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED?

The punishment exceeds the crime.

N.

[JacksGirlfriend]

You could retreat to the comfort of what you know.
You wouldn't want to do that, would ya?

No, of course not. What would be the challenge and fun in that? But that doesn't mean there can't be some sort of happy medium - where certain truths exist and allow the possibility of more. I'm not as rigid as you might think. With my brain falling onto the floor constantly, you might have surmissed I am fairly open minded. I'm sure what I'm going through now is - as you've suggested - merely a sense of discontinuity. I'm sure I'll get over it. I just felt betrayed and I have a hard time dealing with that.

I enjoy the mystery. I enjoy the speculation. I'm not impatient for answers - I am very used to waiting for what I want in life. I just want to know that when I get an answer, it's for real. I guess I just don't like my feelings being tossed about like dice.

And we still need to talk about the eye.

JacksGirl

[Wes Cohn]

http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/dogma.jpg

[Mr Block of Cheese]

So the Island is really like a Matrix huh?

Hmmm....maybe those guns in the suitcase will come in handy. They're gonna need a lot more guns....:p

Cheers on convincing me mate :hat

[LostHorizon]

I'm looking forward to the Season Finale, when Morpheus finally walks out of the Jungle and tells everyone that " All of this - THIS is not real"... :rollin

[Sarahs Monkey]

I will accept anything they dish out to me in this show as long as it is placed within the boundaries they have set for it. There have to be guidelines imposed, some kind of structure where everything proposed fits inside and works its magic. Whether it's science or pseudo-science doesn't really matter to me as long as the structure and framework remain consistent.

I'm pretty sure there are guidelines. The difficulty is they are disguising everything by introducing so many variables every time there is a strange event.

I'm looking forward to the Season Finale, when Morpheus finally walks out of the Jungle and tells everyone that " All of this - THIS is not real"...

I can see it now. He tells Sawyer to choose the red pill or the blue pill and Sawyer punches him in the face.

[Hawkmistress]

The show definitely has a psychoanalytic bent. The characters often do seem to be archetypes for various psychological conditions like codependency for Sun and Jin, and for Boone and Shannon. I imagine someone with more of a psychoanalytic background than I could match up each character to a particular psychological disorder but in my lack of experience I'm not going to attempt to do so.

That being said, I must say that I hope Lost is not going to turn out to be a rehash of The Matrix or Harsh Realm or Dark City. Been there, done that, I say. Let's have something new. Some ideas I have but am not sure are new:

- Lost is actually about a fictional reality show taking place in the future. The castaways agreed to participate. They had their memories edited so they believe that they crashed on the island but in fact there was no plane crash. Instead of having a camera crew around to film their every move like in the actual Survivor series, they have digital implants in their brains that are broadcasting their experiences to some kind of receiver. Or perhaps this is taking place in the not-so-distant future, and there are cameras in concealed locations on the island. Nobody actually died in the plane crash; the corpses were dummies (perhaps they were bioengineered pieces and parts of what looked like but had never actually been living tissue). Same goes for Adam and Eve.

The sounds of the creature crashing around in the forest and the other seemingly inexplicable phenomena like the polar bears has been planted by the producers of this futuristic reality show to confuse and plant suspicions in the minds of the reality show players, kind of like "The Monsters on Elm Street" episode of The Twilight Zone.

This would explain the mysterious "connection" between all of the Lost. They all interviewed with the same producers to be on the fictional reality show.

Maybe the first survivor who figures out what is going on and finds a way off the Island is the winner of this particular reality show.

[cccourt]

You mean? ??? The giant bird or whatever is Jeff Probst?
ccc

[JacksGirlfriend]

Well, Hawk, your theory would certainly slap us in the face. As a fan of Survivor, I find this kind of amusing and look forward to seeing something like it in the future (when I'm sitting in the home still obsessing about Rupert and wondering why Rob and Amber split when they looked so darn cute together). If it's the case with Lost though, they really should have interviewed their candidates better. There is far too much potential in these people for mayhem given some of their personalities. Somehow even in the future I can't see CBS condoning actual torture and death.

JacksGirl

[LostHorizon]

Well, Hawk, your theory would certainly slap us in the face. As a fan of Survivor, I find this kind of amusing and look forward to seeing something like it in the future


Hmmmm... It will probably go something like this.... :

(There is a loud growling and crashing in the jungle, coming toward the Lost Suvivors)

( A Giant Jeff Probst suddenly appears! )

Survivors.. Tribal Council in one hour on the other side of the Island.
Please be there or I'll kill you!


.....And wondering why Rob and Amber split when they looked so darn cute together).

You mean "Boston" Rob and Amber from Split up already? I thought they got married? They are on the cover of one of those Wedding magazines this month... Oh Well..



Somehow even in the future I can't see CBS condoning actual torture and death.

Have you ever seen the movie "Battle Royale", or "The Running Man"? :b

[JacksGirlfriend]

LostHorizon: Didn't mean to scare you. No, Rob and Amber haven't split. I was just imagining the future.

JacksGirl

[NeillT006]

Having recently sought to promote the theory that the island experience is some sort of virtual reality program operating to deliver a form of therapy to those in apparent need, I am the recipient of increasingly frequent challenges to detail specific proofs for this line of thought.

The message is clear: s**t, or get off the pot.

So, having given this much consideration (I will leave it to you to decide situs), I respectfully submit this, my Thesis Faeces (Non Defaeco Ergo Non Sum).

If, indeed, the island is populated by various, flesh-and-blood, large beasts, some seen, some unseen, such a state of facts carries with it the consequence of having to account for specific biological imperatives.

Eating is one, of course. And I will grudgingly admit we have seen some evidence of that; i.e., the pilot and the beast (the fact that there were left overs likely could be attributed to a cross-species dislike for airline food).

But, as it is said, what comes around goes around. And, so, if there are these creatures ferae naturae afoot in the land, it follows that they must leave evidence of their consumption, as is demonstrated by the not infrequent discovery by paleontologists of coprolites attributed to earlier epochs.

We have seen no spoor of these supposed large animals and monsters on the island, however.

How can this be?

The beasts do not enjoy a corporeal existence.

N.

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/no.gif

[charzer0]

Soo you're saying there aren't any large beasts on the island because we haven't seen massive shits yet? Well so far as we've seen the "monster" has only ventured over to the survivors section of the islands several times, it probably has a "special" spot it likes to frequent on the other side of the island to relieve itself.

[NeillT006]

it probably has a "special" spot it likes to frequent on the other side of the island to relieve itself

Oh. That's got to be it.

"Excuse me, I have to go to the little monster's room."

N.

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/no.gif

[JacksGirlfriend]

Okay - assuming your theory is right, the "people" in this virtual psychotherapy session are no more real than the "animals" that inhabit the island because it's all just virtual reality. This would seem to indicate if the animals are not creating waste products the humans wouldn't be doing so either. But Hurley clearly seems to have a problem. That indicates to me the animals would be leaving evidence as well. In that case, there would be, somewhere on the island, in the territories they occupy, evidence of their reality as well. As I've said, it's a big island and they have yet to explore even a smidgeon of it.

If the experiment is to be successful doesn't everything have to be as real as possible? Tell me why you think I'm wrong now.

JacksGirl

[drabauer]

Maybe the a south beach litter box?

Or -if truly invisible--perhaps its faeces are as well

Which means that our heroes could be full of sh** and never know it.

[Sarahs Monkey]

Jack's Girlfriend:
Don't scare me like that! I'm a huge Rob Mariano and when I read your post my heart dropped into my stomach.

As for it all being a game, it's possible and it makes Hurley's comments resonate. He said he is considered a warrior by some at home (assumed to mean "gamer), he said "this isn't a game" in Hearts and Minds, and his scene with Jin in Hearts and Minds was a direct reference to Survivor Marquesas (and perhaps Survivor Thailand as well).

If this is a game, Hurley wins.

[NeillT006]

Okay - assuming your theory is right, the "people" in this virtual psychotherapy session are no more real than the "animals" that inhabit the island because it's all just virtual reality. This would seem to indicate if the animals are not creating waste products the humans wouldn't be doing so either.

Alimentary my dear Watson.

The human subjects of this exercise are obviously intended to experience the full menu of existence, albeit virtually. Otherwise, the overall effect would be lost, eh?

The observation regarding Hurley is perhaps important for another reason. He is apparently the only one complaining about problems of this character. And, food/diet issues certainly would appear to be part of whatever ails him.

As far as the "it's a big island" issue: and you would have me believe that our folks just happened to find themselves in a part of the island where the animials never roam other than out of couriosity for newcomers? Despite apparently ample game (boar), fruit and water?

Now, I find that harder to believe than virtual reality.

N.

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/no.gif

[JacksGirlfriend]

And you don't think eventually someone will point out the lack of physical evidence? What happens then? Someone will get suspicious. I still say it has to be there somewhere.

Why would the animals bother coming to the beach? They can't drink the water and I imagine the food sources are more plentiful in the valleys and hills. What about that?

JacksGirl

typo - hate those

[Wes Cohn]

If it were possible to redact one's early praise, I would black out every positive remark inked in Neill's favor.

Fluffy and pedantic prose is difficult to interpret; it's intended that way. The authors know their arrogant mystique will vaporize the instant accessible language is brought out.

Note the assertive use of subjective generalization in the sentence below:

"The human subjects of this exercise are obviously intended to experience the full menu of existence . . . "

This is common anti-intellectual recourse. A wholly personal conviction is interjected as if it were a corroborated, substantiated absolute. And while a deductive "Otherwise" was presented in this case, one's comprehension of the statement is no less denigrated by the implied conspicuousness of the author's personal conviction.

Compounding this, our author goes on to reveal a gaping absence of scientific fundamentals.

"Wild" is too often interpreted as "free roaming," when it only means "uncaptured; not domesticated." Animals "in the wild" are fiercely and generationally territorial. They rarely pass beyond their symbiotic domains. An animal's basic instinct is survival. Outside large reptiles, none of Lost's indigenous population would be drawn to a shore of endless sand*.





* Additional note: Generally, the massive impact of giant commercial jets is cause for retreat in free ecosystems, not approach.

[NeillT006]

And you don't think eventually someone will point out the lack of physical evidence? What happens then?

I don't know why, but I have a vague sense that other characters would tell him he's nuts and that the animals must be answering the call of nature elsewhere.

Seriously, though, possible imperfections in the virtual reality would serve as interesting clues and plot devices (like the compass issue).

Why would the animals bother coming to the beach?

The beach is not the only place our friends inhabit. And the place that our inland faction settled was selected for the same reasons that would attract other forms of animal life, don't you think?

N.

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/no.gif

[Wes Cohn]

Also, Neill: please find a signature image less blatantly ripped off.

http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/pseudo.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/dogma.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/convention.jpg

[JacksGirlfriend]

Anything I can say will mean absolutely nothing at this point.

I sense a DEATHMATCH. This time, however, I think it might be The Battle of Big Words. I will unpack my Goth outfit and get ready.

(I still think they'll find evidence.)

JacksGirl

[NeillT006]

Also, Neill: please find a signature image less blatantly ripped off.

Geez, Wes, it was sort of meant as a compliment.

Your graphic got me thinking, and I recalled the appearance of the scar crossing Locke's right eye.

And I thought there was message there for us.

N.

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/notrust.gif

[Wes Cohn]

meant as a compliment.

And I would have been complimented if your behavior remained mannerly and scientific.

[NeillT006]

This is common anti-intellectual recourse. A wholly personal conviction is interjected as if it were a corroborated, substantiated absolute.

Wes, I am going to say that I was puzzled by this at first, but then realized that I had not clearly indicated that I was specifically responding to JG's post.

You know the one. Where she says something to the effect of "assuming your theory is right." So my response proceeds in that context.

Animals "in the wild" are fiercely and generationally territorial.

No rational person can doubt the territorial character of many animals, particularly predators. But it seems to me that more often than not the establishment of territories is an necessary accommodation for living in an area with members of the same species. If the niche exists, and is unoccupied, someone is bound to move in.

But, hey, that's just my thought. I have no doubt that you are more expert in the area of territorial behavior.

* Additional note: Generally, the massive impact of giant commercial jets is cause for retreat in free ecosystems, not approach.

If the animals were previously in the area and retreated upon the crash of the plane, I sort of doubt they packed up their scat and took it with them.

N.

http://members.aol.com/dbacentral/notrust.gif

[Wes Cohn]

they packed up their scat and took it with them

implies an indigenous population on the beach; however previous demonstration shows this to be stupendously unlikely.

Whatever the case, I feel my scolding you for your signature was unnecessary and inflammatory.

As amends, you are welcome to this graphic:

http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/lock.gif

[Wes Cohn]

http://homepage.mac.com/citizensane/lock.jpg

[NeillT006]

Wes:

I appreciate the gift and the effort behind it.

N.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Have you guys made up yet?

I enjoy both your posts - there is room for 2 styles of alpha males here.

[Sarahs Monkey]

I enjoy both your posts - there is room for 2 styles of alpha males here.

I wish I could be an internet alpha male.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

"I wish I could be an internet alpha male"

LOL

[yung23]

I AM.

( Internet Alpha Male ) LOL

get it ? I'm not boasting, just noticed the anagram...
Is it called an anagram ?

[JacksGirlfriend]

Damn - I really wanted to wear that outfit. I look so good in black.

Anyway... so back to the theory. Here's an interesting topic for our next discussion. In this theory of yours, I'm assuming the majority of our characters have some kind of psychological trauma/condition. But let's take someone like Sun.

She clearly has a somewhat co-dependent relationship with Jin, but I would hardly classify her as needing much beyond standard counseling. Her problems don't seem to need a drastic approach like the one you've proposed. And yet I also don't see her as a construct because she has some emotional details to deal with.

So where does Sun fit in your game?

JacksGirl

[charzer0]

Nah an anagram for Internet Alpha Male would be The Mental Airplane. Hmm could the whole flight have been in everyones head ... strange ...

[charzer0]

Oh by the way the word is acronym ... I was going to say that in my last post but I couldn't think of it at the time for some reason. But it finally came to me :)

[drypelia]

Anyway... so back to the theory.

I'll keep playing with you, JG.

She clearly has a somewhat co-dependent relationship with Jin, but I would hardly classify her as needing much beyond standard counseling. Her problems don't seem to need a drastic approach like the one you've proposed. And yet I also don't see her as a construct because she has some emotional details to deal with.

To make sense of this, we have to assume that her backstory is incomplete. So, ask the question, why is she in a co-dependent relationship? One possibility is that she suffered some sort of trauma in childhood - she's scared of her father, so maybe he beat or raped her. Or..... actually, that's all I've got. But maybe it will spark something.

dry

[JacksGirlfriend]

Thanks Dry. It's an interesting little theory and I want to keep playing. Of all the castaways, Sun seems like one of the more well adjusted. I'm sure there's more to her, but that's my take on it for now.

JacksGirl

[NeillT006]

I have been thinking about the compass issue and how it might be explained in the Freud/Matrix scenario.

Try this: In the island construct there is internal consistency. Sun sets in the west, rises in the east. North is that-a-way.

But, would that orientation have to agree with reality of the world outside the construct?

I'm thinking not.

Take for example you watching TV. You are watching a picture of the north pole. In the TV-viewer system, north has a clearly defined direction. But that direction does not have to have any relationship to north outside that system. Indeed, it likely would be a coincidence only that your easy chair and your TV are oriented on a line running north and south.

So, maybe it should not come as a surprise that the "north" of the virtual island is not the north of the world outside that reality.

But, wait a minute, if Loche's compass is part of the virtual reality shouldn't it give virtual readings?

Well, one would think so if the virtual reality program was perfect. But maybe what we are seeing is one of the imperfections of the system.

How would that work?

(geez - now I am talking to myself)

It could work like this: the computer system supplying the data required to maintain the virtual reality is called upon to provide data for a compass reading when the compass is viewed by a character. Through oversight (although I guess it could be by plan, which would introduce even deeper layers) the computer queries its data sources which provide it with precise locational information -- only it is locational information relative to where the computer itself is located in the "real" world. Voila! A difference between the visual and compass determination of which way is north.

As I was thinking about this, it stuck me that we as viewers possibly could use that information to figure out where the computer (and presumably the virtual reality treatment center) is actually located.

(This ought to appeal to certain correspondents that insist on rules.)

If the virtual island is based upon data derived from an actual place, then it has a location in the real world. Although I guess none of us can be sure, it appears from the clues that we have been given that the island is located somewhere in the area of island chains east of Australia.

So, what was the difference in the directional data when comparing the "west is that way,so north is that way" visual observations with Loche's compass readings? I am flying entirely by memory here, but it seemed to be that visual north was about 20 to 30 degrees off from compass north.

I am not 100% sure, but I think this means that location of the hypothetical virtual reality treatment center would be 20 to 30 degrees longitude east of the virtual island.

If you look at a map, is there anything that qualifies as a candidate?

Well, the Hawaiian Islands sort of fit the bill.

I have always been struck by the fact that the French woman's map bears a vague resemblance to Oahu.

N.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Well course that would be the Black Rock.

[DontWannaBLost]

I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere, but since we're on the topic. In regards to where the compass points...the magnetic north pole is not actually at the same place as the geographic north pole.

My recollection of high school physics (albeit poor) would lead me to believe that the closer u are to the magnetic north (or south) pole, the more erroneous ur compass reading would be.

This could fit into ur virtual reality theory if the island they are on virtually is close to a real magnetic pole (ie: not near the equator)...guess we'll just have to see if the sun starts setting earlier in the winter (assuming they are in the southern hemisphere now)

[JacksGirlfriend]

You know, Neill, you never answered my question about Sun. Where does she fit in all this?

Jacks Girl

[NeillT006]

Interesting things found while surfing:
http://www.interactivemediainstitute.com/images/cyber05.jpg

I wonder if there while be a LOST exhibit?

www.vrphobia.com/ (http://www.vrphobia.com/) Virtual Reality Medical Center (damn, I wish it was on Oahu)

Rosalind C. Barnett and Walter A. Aviles , two contributors to an article commenting on some preliminary applications of VR technology to mental-health problems outside the domain of phobias, considering ways in which VR might be used to further enhance psychotherapy and assist in the treatment of a wide variety of disorders.

Very interesting stuff from Charles T. Tart (http://www.paradigm-sys.com/cttart/sci-docs/ctt90-mpasa.html)

Neill

[JacksGirlfriend]

Still waiting... notice how he ignores me?

[NeillT006]

(edited to recognize earlier post by Deelsee7 (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1111.topic&start=1&stop=20))

Earlier I suggested that some of the people we meet may not be real folks.

Ethan is one that I pick as a possible "construct."

I am sure others have commented on this, but his name is clearly consistent with this idea.

ROM = read only memory.

Could be he is built into the system.

And from what I remember of the episodes I have seen him, his entire countenance and manner hints at something remote, perhaps artificial.

N.

[NeillT006]

More on Ethan:

Danielle speaks of the others being "carriers" and members of her party becoming "sick."

There has been much talk of there being an infectious agent of some sort loose on the island, which causes people to change.

If the Freud/Matrix idea has any validity, then what type of infectious agent would one suspect?

Obviously, a computer virus of some sort, perhaps infecting and altering in unanticipated and malevolent ways the intended programming, by changing important files.

Interestingly, there was a computer virus over the last few years that connects at least in a superficial way.

W97M/Ethan - the Ethan virus.

Its "signature?"

Ethan Frome.

N.

[drabauer]

W97M/Ethan - the Ethan virus.

Its "signature?"

Ethan Frome.

Oh come on, Neill! You've got to be kidding! A computer virus named after a character from an Edith Wharton novel who married an old spinster and fell in love with her nursemaid only to attempt a botched suicide and spend his remaining years in misery?

Then again, he was played by Liam Neeson in the movie versions, so it could have been a glamorous virus.

[NeillT006]

DOC:

I was merely pointing out that the real life virus infected files and left behind an "Ethan Frome" signature.

As I indicated, the connection could be only superficial, and the name employed to evoke a character=virus consideration.

Somewhere else in the tangled mass of this message board someone had already addressed the name Ethan Frome and almost with tongue-in-cheek wondered out loud if the ROM was FROME without the Fe (iron), meaning a creature without blood.

A virtual creature?

Neill

[drabauer]

stranger things . . .

of course I was taking irony to an unrecognizeable extreme, but when you say the virus left behind a signature, do you mean a text signature?

I always like the gypsy connection myself, but there's no reason we can't be polygamous in our polysemy.

[NeillT006]

when you say the virus left behind a signature, do you mean a text signature?

Yes, it apparently changed the name of documents as reflected in the properties to "Ethan Frome."

It apparently would look to see if the computer was infected with another form of virus and, if so, delete a specific file to prevent the other from replicating.

Hmmm.

N.

[drabauer]

Hmmm indeed.

Neill, I do believe you are the single most provocative member of this board!

:evil

[azteclady]

Wow, Neill!!!

I like this - and I believe it ties with ChanceGardener's Castaways Disconnect (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1090.topic) theory too. I mean, if our survivors have some sort of personality disorder to a certain degree, it would explain a lot of their behaviour towards each other.

And if the construct has become self-aware, at least to a degree... hmmm

I'm with JacksGirlfriend, though, in wondering why was Sun chosen? What would be her 'problem'?

For that matter, why were Michael and Walt chosen? to mend their relationship? Or is one real and the other a construct planted to help the real one deal with the loss of the other?

It would seem to me that both have to be real, since we have seen both on their own - no need to, if the only purpose of the constructs is to interact with the survivors. And for the same reason, I doubt either could/would be a guide.


Beto
Read the Welcome (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm31) forum first, PM me second

[JacksGirlfriend]

Moving up for new people.

[NeillT006]

I've been talking to myself a lot about the idea of dissociative personality disorders lately, and I still can't shake the feeling that there is something here.

I continue to be struck by the similarities in backgrounds of a number of our main characters -- the whole "daddy issue" thing. Reading the literature, it is suggested that in a multiple a number of the alters may share memories (particularly those relating to a trauma that triggers the dissociation) but the memories can differ so as to "fit" (my word -- not the professionals') the constructed histories of the alters.

Think about that. Think about those dad issues. Could we be seeing multiple versions of one relationship?

OK. I know what you are going to say. We've got men, women, different ages, different races, etc. Well, there is precedent for all of that in the literature.

It is also interesting to me that we see examples of main characters being in the same place at the same time before boarding the ill fated flight.

Apparently, in multiples alters can have varying levels of awareness of one another. Moreover, they sometimes incorporate into their own histories each others' memories, albeit from different perspectives; i.e., they remember being in the same place at the same time, but from their own points of view.

One intriguing point of information is that multiples invent various ways to perceive and deal with their own internal structures, to explain where alters "go" when not manifesting.

Each multiple has a specific way they see the inside of their mind, where the alters live when they are not in control of the body. Examples include stages, tunnels, houses and levels. These are their internal houses where they go when they are not out or when they are hiding.


Interesting Article (http://allpsych.com/journal/did.html)

Oh my. Tunnels and levels. Lava tubes and weird hatches anyone?

A problem in treating multiples is that you never know when you have identified all the alters. Just when you think you have them all identified it turns out that there are

(all together now)

others.

An interesting thing about these alters/others is that even if they are not controlling the host, they have a tendency to communicate.

Disembodied voices.

The awareness of their common existence among alters is called co-consciousness. The degree of co-consciousness varies. The less co-consciousness there is, the more likely you will have

(can I get a witness)

unexplained gaps of memory.

The relationships between the alters can be quite dynamic:

Alternate identities are experienced as taking control in sequence, one at the expense of the other, and may deny knowledge of one another, be critical of one another, or appear to be in open conflict. Occasionally, one or more powerful identities allocate time to the others. Aggressive or hostile identities may at times interrupt activities or place the others in uncomfortable situations.

Another interesting article. (http://www.dissociation.com/index/Definition/) (this one is a bit out on the fringe, but what the heck)

Sounds like something out of a spoilers thread to me.

Something interesting from the article cited above is the discussion of the Inner Self Helper. Multiples apparently frequently have a helper, one of the alters who seems to be "in the know" and most willing to work to resolve the host's predicament. Some of the characteristics of the ISH include: is able to work on the inside of the patient's mind (ya think!! - Neill), as co-therapist; knows all about history of patient and can predict short term future; talks intellectually instead of emotionally, carefully chooses precise words, speaks in short concise sentences; prefers to answer questions; gives enigmatic instructions.

Enigmatic. Hmmmm. We have a bit of that going around, seems to me.

Of course, as has been discussed in other threads, the goal of therapy is the integration of the alters. This involves in large measure the effort to get the alters to recognize each other and come to understand their true relationship.

Pharmacological approaches are apparently not the principal treatment:

Pharmacological approaches involve balancing therapeutic benefit and risk. Antianxiety medications are most commonly used and may be helpful in reducing the amplification of depersonalization and derealization are also side effects of antianxiety drugs, so their therapeutic response, may also increase symptoms, leading to a spiral of increasing symptoms and drug dosage but without therapeutic benefit.

Quoted from the first article.

Instead, psychotherapy with hypnosis appears to be major treatment tool.

So, I am sure that you all know where I am going with this. Wouldn't one interesting way to approach the integration process be to engineer a means of allowing alters to manifest simultaneously? Enter the "matrix."

Now I am not saying that I would bet my eternal soul that this is what is really going on (I might be tempted to bet one or two others'), but I think it has internal consistencies that work well to this point in the show's development.

So where am I on who's who? I am torn. I think that maybe Claire is the core person, receiving treatment so that her child will not be raised by others/alters. But, I am also liking the idea that we do not really see the core person at all, at least as an individual. Instead, perhaps the patient is the environment within which all the action is taking place: the island?

OK. I am starting to lose focus. I will stop here.

For now.

Neill

[JacksGirlfriend]

I'm actually loving this idea now.

[drypelia]

I've been talking to myself a lot about the idea of dissociative personality disorders lately

Very cute, Neill!!

Actually, it works as well as anything else, and it's an interesting way to view the characters. As for who the core personality is, Claire is as good a choice as anyone, but it could also be someone we haven't met yet. Core personalities are not necessarily dominant personalities. I suppose it could as easily be Walt, who is distant, but seems to have some sort of control over events.

Interesting theory!

dry

[jaystao]

At first I was reluctant, the whole matrix/identity theme seemed 'been there done that'. But in liue of this analysis you really get to see how smart and psychoanalytical it can be. I'm taking a bit bite out of this one... though in fear of gagging at some point... lets hope theres no 'mother knows best' alters, any one remember psycho?

[drabauer]

So you are suggesting, Neill, that everyone is an alter of one core personality?

I just can't follow you there, although I certainly love the idea of probing the characters's psyches in this way. For me the elaborate backstory of each character precludes this scenario. But the idea of these people being brought together because of their troubled backgrounds--that is, your original idea of a therapeutic purpose to the island--is picking up more steam. I think the whole idea of a new society, though, is taking precedence over the therapeutic. That is, I see the island as more of a social-psychology experiment than as an experience meant to deal with individual ills.

[NeillT006]

That is, I see the island as more of a social-psychology experiment than as an experience meant to deal with individual ills.

Doc: You could be right. Either way it seems to be extremely focused on issues of integration, whether at the individual or group level.

But it is fun to marshal the evidence.

Point for multiple: Sayid talking to Charlie about post traumatic shock of having taken a life.

"You are not alone."

Ya think!?!

Neill

[drabauer]

Point for multiple: Sayid talking to Charlie about post traumatic shock of having taken a life.

"You are not alone."

Ya think!?!:rollin

Neill you have ALWAYS got a great comeback, I must say!

[NeillT006]

OK.

Interesting show last night -- 3/2/05.

Although I guess I should be worried that the writers always seem to eventually blow up the obvious, the whole idea of mental health treatment certainly seemed to get a rousing endorsement.

For me, Hurley clearly had been a patient at that facility.

Think back. In the scene in the living room while mom was in the kitchen. She's "mothering" and Hurley says something to the effect that "I agreed to live with you only if I could be my own man." I know that is not verbatim. But it was very much along those lines.

So, Hurl. Where were you living before? Pretty obvious this is mom's house. So, he moved in from somewhere else.

Next thing we find out is that Hurley has a relationship with a patient in a mental health facility. Not unique perhaps, but certainly not a common thing.

Interesting scene was the one at the desk of the hospital. Hurley is acting out in a pretty serious way. The desk person didn't go into the officious clerk mode that one might typically expect. Instead, there was a certain level of of tolerance and patience that I thought was more in line with the handling of a resident rather than a member of the public.

Granted, that was highly subjective. But, the scene resolves with the conversation between Hurley and a man I took to be a doctor. This is where the man says something to the effect that he hadn't noticed that Hurley had taken such an interest in Leonard before.

Things are adding up to Hurley having been in the program there.

By the way, where was Hurley "the warrior?" I was expecting to see some follow up on this statement he made early in the show.

Maybe we did. Maybe Leonard and Hurley engaged in many a Connect Four battle.

(by the way -- and off point -- I wonder how many combinations of positions -- empty, red, black -- there are in a Connect Four game?)

I am sure everyone noticed right away that Hurley, too, was sans father. Indeed, just to hit us over the head with it, gramps the father figure drops during the TV interview.

And, not to be over looked was Charlie's repeated assessment that Hurley is nuts, bonkers, etc (as well as Hurley's reaction).

Yes. I think the mental health aspect of the show spiked.

Boxes.

Lots of talk about letting it out of the box.

Made me think that opening boxes is certainly a recurring theme. Jack and the casket. Kate and bank. Michael and the letters. The whole Haliburton case deal. Maybe there are other examples.

But Hurley's episode drew new attention to it.

And it apparently is not a good thing.

I wonder if alters were being sequestered in a "box" as a means of internal organization and therapy? As pointed out before, multiples adopt similar types of internal constructs to explain and deal with the presence/non-presence of alters.

Is "opening the box" an observation that prior therapeutic work has been undone?

OK. I really do have to get to work.

Later.


Neill

[sawyerhasbestlines]

After last night's show, the bell curve is definately has shifted in this direction.

So Hurley had recently been released from the psychiatric ward. Why was he there to begin with? Answering my own question: I guess it doesn't matter, because the point is that everyone in Hurley's life seems to accuse him of being crazy. But it seems he always knew he wasn't, but he needed someone, anyone to acknowlege him and believe him. His cursed journey took him to Danielle who was able to release him from his shackles.

Besides Locke, we are now seeing a clearer look at the players who have gotten their "salvation?" from the island - and therefore clearly don't need to leave. Locke, Walt, Charlie, and now Hurley. So whatever is in the box/hatch can also provide relief. There is a thruline of one degree of separation, chance/luck, and choice.

The numbers seem to be a kind of cosmic vortex toilet.

[drabauer]

Neill--I am out of town and haven't been able to watch the whole of numbers yet (the first 20"), but I had to respond to your boxes thread.

Mental illness and boxes: final harrowing scene of my fave Mulholland Drive when the over-enthusiastic seniors of the opening scene crawl out of the monster-bum's box and terrorize Betty/Diane into committing suicide . .
8o

[NeillT006]

Doc:

And how could I have forgotten Locke working at the box factory.

And his self-proclaimed talent of putting bits and pieces together.

N.

[NeillT006]

DOC Part II:

And I also forgot Danielle and her broken music box.

Neill

[Coyote1066]

I know your theory has progressed since 2/2/2005, but back to your mention of computer viruses. Didn't Ethan say his job was computer programmer, software industry or something like that when Hurley asked? Assuming he's not a figment of someone's dilluded mind how would anyone who's been on the island, say longer than 20 years, know anything about that?

Sorry, don't answer here. Just start a new topic. I don't want to get your thread off track.

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/suredude.jpg

[NeillT006]

I've been guilty of going outside this thread and beating the drum for this theory. If nothing else, I am losing track of if or when I have actually put a particular thought into play. So, please excuse me while I try to tidy up some things.

And now here's a little number for you ....... (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1431.topic)

Do we know beans about the numbers? (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=2039.topic)

What if the flashbacks are not in real space? (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1000.topic&start=1&stop=20)

To the believers of the insanity theories. (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=2050.topic)


From Possible Clue to The Island's history (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1424.topic&start=21&stop=40)

Coyote:

My memory is that the Civil Defense (CD) was a domestic activity whose mission was civilian preparedness and mobilization in the event of a threatened enemy incursion in these United States.

And, bomb shelters were very much a common feature in all sorts of public buildings, including government buildings, schools and hospitals. Many of these facilities were stockpiled with Civil Defense goods and wares.

So, I agree. I would not expect to find a bomb shelter, or Civil Defense stuff, out in the the middle of the Pacific.

Now, in a state side hospital on the other hand .........



From Hurley in the Psyche Ward (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1395.topic&start=21&stop=40)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking from the other side, though, I think Hurley would make a great social worker within the institution.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



DOC:

You keep walking up to the door, but won't cross the threshold.

You are right, chances of your average, everyday, run-of-the mill, mild personality disorder being a resident in what, based on Leonard's state, is a long-term mental health care facility is pretty remote.

Hurley got it bad.

And that ain't good.

And the thought that maybe he was a "social worker?" I don't know much about California (except for those bushy, bushy blond hairdos I heard about in my youth) but in these parts that requires some level of education.

I don't get the feeling that Chicken Man is possessed of that type of resume.

And lets not forget the exchange with Mom where Hurley says that he agreed to live with her only if he could be his own man. Sounds to me that he was in some sort of alternative living arrangement, eh?

But I agree. Hurley seems a natural at facilitating integration. Almost as if he was conceived for that purpose.

As I understand it, it is not unusual for multiples to have an alter of Hurley's ilk among the usual cast of characters.

Key's under the mat. Just let yourself in.

Neill

[jaystao]

Looking from the other side, though, I think Hurley would make a great social worker within the institution.

My cousin works in a mental institution as one of the ..... (I cant remember what their called but its basically that guy who licks Sarah Conner's face in T2 ... have to ask him one of these days). Anyway could Hurley be one of these 'wardens' that sounds more plausible as Hurley's build and character are very similar to my cousins.

Not to sure about the whole matrix theme but I did a post on lithium that might be helpful to this idea in regards to the present technology being developed to create super computers.

In the last half century of last Millenia lithium experimentation resulted in several technological breakthroughs. However it was only until the mid 70's to 80's that various agencies including the US military and computer companies started experimenting on lithium based holographic imagery with successful patents but failing to act entirely on its potential market (either due to withholding of information or erroneous research agenda's).

It is in the last decade that lithium based holographic technology has truly taken off. Its special conductivity is currently being used in the construction of super computers. That is a special crystal solution called lithium niobate is being used to project and store holographic information by way of duel optic lasers creating 3D imagery/data through the crystal. This technology is currently in existence due to new advances that have solved the problem of the super fluidity of lithiums conductivity (everything you read erased itself as light photons traveled through the polar fields of lithiums atoms).

Dark-decay: Lithium crystals suffer from dark decay creating a slow degeneration of data when placed in low light spectrums over a period of time (is this true?).

Lithium niobate now allows one to store vast amounts of data onto small versatile hard drives with virtually no retrieval time. How much data? A hundred Tera bites worth. A terabyte is about 1000 gigabytes. Thats 100'000 gigabytes! Imagine what you could do with that sort of computer power give or take a few decades (years?)!

Are the castaways lost in somekind of holographic simulator of the future. Is lithium niobate a candidate for this matrix/freudian template?

Lithium crystals also have a strong mystical nature (according to crystal 'sciences') that have properties resembling the spiritual template of lost.

Lithium is also used in the curing of mental disorders such as polio so it has a psychiatric use as well (the 'lithium poisoning' (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1450.topic) thread has more on this).

PS: An interesting side note of lithium niobite is that its adjusted periodic number is LiNBo3 (limbo?).

[lacenaire]

Hi neill congratulations for this theory it is clearly the best of all that I've read so far.

I wanted to point out a few things to see if you can develop even more this theory.

1. You think that what we see is the projection of the mind of an individual that suffers from multiple personality disorder. Every character stands for an alter ego. That reminds me a lot of the recent movie titled "Identity". Please explain if you see any relation between that movie and Lost. Will there be a struggle between alters until only one prevails and restores unity in the fragmented mind of the patient?

2. About Ethan. You seem to think he is a construct of the matrix. I am not so sure. To me he is just like a personified version of the monster that lurks in the jungle. Of course there will be others cause the monster seems to be somewhat inmaterial and shapeshifting. It might represent the pure violent nature of the mind that's being projected. Ever since the Romanticism it's clear that artists and writers use the Forest to represent the subconscious aspects of the psyche.

3. It didn't strike me that Ethan would try to kill the most "weak" and "kind hearted" alter in order to prevail. It didn't strike me also that it was the addictive alter who killed him defending her and himself. Charlie is the one who needs both an understanding alter and an excuse for doing what he does.

4. Danielle the french woman. I don't believe either that she is part of the matrix. She has her own box and she kind of represents "the mother" in this. Also it was curious that being so elusive and fearful she manifested to Hurley and even let him touch her. Remember about how the alters explain the absence of the others? In that case Hurley simply was outrun by Charlie...

5. About Adam and Eve. I believe it is the archtype of "the mother" and "the father". The fact that they are dead indicates the cause and nature of the mental illness?. The cure would consist of making this couple of animus and anima reunified? All the "sane alters" seem to be trying to do that.

6. About the monster. It seems that it is an external representation of the most violent and savage part of the fragmented mind we see. As it is not socially acceptable it's been externalized and dehumanized to some extent. Isn't that what all monsters really are? When it appears in human form it has distinctive inhuman traits like Ethan.

7. About Locke. The fact that it was a crippled alter before and now has regained full strength seems to cause me some concern. He acts like the "Inside self helper" that you mentioned before, right? What could be his aim helping the other alters accept each other? In relation to Locke, the writers seem to have given him a kind of philosophic aura. Like his homonymn is the one that has formulated the theory of "tabula rasa". How could he know what Walt did if there is no psychological explanation to all this data as Neill has formulated?

Hope this arouses some thoughts

Cheers

[NeillT006]

Lacenaire:

Thank you. Given some of the mighty fine conjecturing that goes on around here, that's a very nice thing to say.

And let me return the compliment. You ask some very good questions and provide an opportunity for joint exploration of the idea.

Feel free to jump in whenever it suits you, even if it is to take a contrary position or to try to push in a different direction.

1. You think that what we see is the projection of the mind of an individual that suffers from multiple personality disorder. Every character stands for an alter ego. That reminds me a lot of the recent movie titled "Identity". Please explain if you see any relation between that movie and Lost. Will there be a struggle between alters until only one prevails and restores unity in the fragmented mind of the patient?

Well, I cannot say I see any connection, because I have never seen the movie. But my wife, who is my peer reviewer, assures me I am ripping it off.

I don't know so much about a struggle between alters as maybe a struggle of alters. I am thinking that a well developed personality will have no desire to have its existence ended, and may undertake to prevent such an occurrence.

But, there are The Others. It appears that even in a multiple that has some degree of cross-awareness there can be unknown personalities. This is really stretching at this point, but perhaps those that have kept their existence a secret are likely to more actively campaign to preserve that existence, producing the type of struggles to which you refer.

2. About Ethan. You seem to think he is a construct of the matrix. I am not so sure. To me he is just like a personified version of the monster that lurks in the jungle. Of course there will be others cause the monster seems to be somewhat immaterial and shapeshifting. It might represent the pure violent nature of the mind that's being projected. Ever since the Romanticism it's clear that artists and writers use the Forest to represent the subconscious aspects of the psyche.

Although I have put on a brave face and talked about Ethan several times, I'm going to admit that I am not satisfied with my thoughts about him to this point. Particularly since I have come to see in the writing a pretty liberal use of bait and switch tactics, I am very reluctant to continue further with the original thought that he is a dark force. He is gone, but I think we are going to learn more about him and his actual role in all of this. But, on no evidence at all, and wholly on gut feel, I do not see him as an alter.

3. It didn't strike me that Ethan would try to kill the most "weak" and "kind hearted" alter in order to prevail. It didn't strike me also that it was the addictive alter who killed him defending her and himself. Charlie is the one who needs both an understanding alter and an excuse for doing what he does.

Charlie actually presents a make or break opportunity for the theory. If the theory is right, then it would predict that Charlie should have a history echoing that of the others. So {BIG PREDICTION} I am thinking that when we met Charlie in his flashback, at Church, "forgive me Father for I have sinned," he is talking to not only the priest but to a substitute father -- the priest in a Church orphanage.

My peer reviewer, by the way, suggests that the priest-boy relationship might be the source of the trauma that powers the condition. But I think she watches too much TV.

One other thing triggered by talking about Charlie (Charlie = music): did you see this post in the general discussion?

Alter Bridge (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=2072.topic)

All I can say is yeeeow.

4. Danielle the french woman. I don't believe either that she is part of the matrix. She has her own box and she kind of represents "the mother" in this. Also it was curious that being so elusive and fearful she manifested to Hurley and even let him touch her. Remember about how the alters explain the absence of the others? In that case Hurley simply was outrun by Charlie...

Danielle. I also had a strong sense of mother in the encounter with Hurley. You are really pushing me to reveal my most speculative speculations. I think that Danielle is a Loche equivalent from a prior, and probably failed, attempt at integration. I think the personality that she was instrumental in constructing was her viewed by her as her child, Alex. Faced with a re-population of the therapy venue, her natural reaction was to wonder why, and where Alex is. I think when she was confronted with Hurley, she found Alex, or at least part of Alex, thus triggering the maternal reaction. There of course is absolutely no support whatsoever for any of this, at least as of yet, but it follows from the original premise.

5. About Adam and Eve. I believe it is the archtype of "the mother" and "the father". The fact that they are dead indicates the cause and nature of the mental illness?. The cure would consist of making this couple of animus and anima reunified? All the "sane alters" seem to be trying to do that.

Absolutely. Eloquently stated. Also, think about the children's toys found strewn around outside the cave. Not just man and wife. Mom and dad.

The black and white stones found on the bodies: was there one stone with each? Did the man have the black stone? I don't know the answers to these questions, but if he did, I would like that fit.

6. About the monster. It seems that it is an external representation of the most violent and savage part of the fragmented mind we see. As it is not socially acceptable it's been externalized and dehumanized to some extent. Isn't that what all monsters really are? When it appears in human form it has distinctive inhuman traits like Ethan.

Ever since an embarrassing "newbie" post about the monster in my first visit here, I find it emotionally challenging to think much about it. I don't know about it being a product of the multiple. Seems to me that on at least a couple of occasions it was the mechanism of a therapeutic moment. If forced to take a position right now, I'd say a part of the therapy program.

7. About Locke. The fact that it was a crippled alter before and now has regained full strength seems to cause me some concern. He acts like the "Inside self helper" that you mentioned before, right? What could be his aim helping the other alters accept each other? In relation to Locke, the writers seem to have given him a kind of philosophic aura. Like his homonymn is the one that has formulated the theory of "tabula rasa". How could he know what Walt did if there is no psychological explanation to all this data as Neill has formulated?

At first I thought Locke was not part of the group, but when we learned of his common history (foster mother - father not cool) I felt pretty well compelled to include him in the alter count. The helper seems the natural role (although in the literature the helper is sometimes described as an entity of indeterminate sex/age/etc).

Well, that was fun. I hope you find your way back.

Neill

[lacenaire]

Hi Neill thanks for the answer

I will keep on thinking about it.

For the spanish readers that want to follow your theory I've made a quick translation summing up the main points.

It can be found here:

h**p://misteryrip.sharerip.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150

(You will have to press the button "mostrar spoiler" (show spoiler) to read the translation [Tendreís que oprimir el botón "mostrar spoiler" para leer la traducción]

Cheers

[lacenaire]

Hi Neill

Let me explain why do I think Ethan is another alter.
He would be the alter that is the pure representation of the father as a hostile entity. That's why he tries to hurt/kill the mother figure of Claire. All alters seem to share this view of the father as hostile and a permanent threat to the mother either psychologically or phisically. Maybe the patient's father abused the mother? Also every character shares a very intimate and rather too close relation to their mothers (Oedipus complex?). Ethan would be the alter that takes charge in phases of rampaging rage and is later on projected as an "other" in a defence mechanism of denial.

The monster I still thinks is part of the subconscious depths from which the others are spawned but I grant there's no proof to that. Maybe literary references like that chtultu character in Lovecraft's novels could clarify the true nature of this entity, if it were as I think a symbolic figure.
Remember what Sawyer said about not having to adhere to social rules now? Maybe the monster is the savage nature (id) pressing onto the "superego" and killing socially acceptable behaviours?

[lacenaire]

I have to admit it seems that after some thought you are right about the monster. It seems as a way to extract irrelevant alters and to make relevant alters to face their conflicts and in some way find the way to reintegration...

Is this what you have in mind? Please elaborate a little more of the insight you might perceive about it.

Cheers

[lacenaire]

More details to support Neill's theory:

1. All male (and some female characters) share to some extent the same knowledge of the use of weapons and agressive qualities. My guess is that that is the true nature of the multiple patient. How else could we explain that Claire could seriously batter a much stronger man like Ethan? How else could we explain that a MD knows how to shoot a weapon and has the fighting skills of an american gladiator? How else can we explain that even if Charlie recognizes he's never shot weapon before he's able to shoot several shots to Ethan without missing one of them in a highly stressfull situation in a dark an rainy enviroment? Even Hurley says he has a past life where he was considered a warrior.

2. The so called flashbacks episodes don't they start as if an alter awakens and takes control of the psyche?

3. The fact the a clear self ideal image like Jack and Locke seem to be gaining preponderance is an indication of something positive or maybe negative as it indicates a drift further away from reality? For those alters their "function" (as doctor or hunter) is not really a true calling but a means to impose their authority and gain respect from the others?

I must admit the more I think of this theory the more I believe it unifies everything that is going on in the series.

[NeillT006]

The so called flashbacks episodes don't they start as if an alter awakens and takes control of the psyche?

lacenaire:

Yes, the tight close up on the eye, as it opens, and a moment of trying to decide which personality we are now dealing with is something that I have long thought of as a possibly neat dramatic device consistent with the idea.

Neill

[lacenaire]

More support to Neillt006

Why is the tide coming up?
Why the sea is killing people?
Why are they being forced to go into the jungle?

I think the beach represents the "ego" of the subject and that the sea would be the way to express feelings and relate to the outside world in a healthy way.

The pathology is projecting against that possibility to make itself strong, it sees that possibility of opening to others naturally as a weakness, as something dangerous (the sea is the way to escape clearly but it has killed 2 people - Ethan or whoever came from the sea to kill a man the night of the ultimatum).

They are all being forced to move to the forest, which i believe represent the subconcious.
Inversion and retroalimentation occur I believe. Hence the subject is becoming more and more absorbed by its own inner reality (caves, murky rain forests, secret underground buildings???), blocking the rest of the world. And the more the pathology forces the subject to try to feel safe and close in the more difficult becomes to overcome the feeling of anxiety and paranoia.

[lacenaire]

Now more arguments to favour this interpretation

1. 16 years ago 16 people arrived on this island and the most resourceful is a mother figure whose surname is the same as the french philosopher who wrote about the concept of the "bon sauvage" the kind savage.

2. In present time again 16 main roles arrive to "the island" and the most resourceful is again someone whose surname is the same of a scotch philosopher who also wrote about the inherent good nature of the human soul?

3. My guess is that we have 2 sets of multiples created around a mother and a father figure. What will happen when Rousseau and Locke meet?

[NeillT006]

They are all being forced to move to the forest, which i believe represent the subconcious. Inversion and retroalimentation occur I believe. Hence the subject is becoming more and more absorbed by its own inner reality (caves, murky rain forests, secret underground buildings???), blocking the rest of the world. And the more the pathology forces the subject to try to feel safe and close in the more difficult becomes to overcome the feeling of anxiety and paranoia.

I am not uncomfortable with the idea of the island as something more than an island. In a Freud/Matrix context involving parallel manifesting, co-conscious alters, a possible explanation for the island would be as a manifestation of the core mind itself, within which these alters reside.

Though wildly speculative, such an idea has the capacity to explain a comment I have heard mentioned by others and attributed to the show's creators: that no one has ever left the island.

Neill

[lacenaire]

Ok Neill I see your point

In that movie I mentioned before, "Identity" one of the alters tries to flee the motel where all the alters are "isolated" (etimologically it derives from insula = island) and when he thinks he's gotten to another place he then realizes he's back in the motel.

[Tinstaafl69]

Neill and Lacenaire, I think you are onto something. I have always thought of the possibility of alters or multiple personality syndrome with regard to this show, but I didn't know how to express it as well as you two. Bravo!

[thoughtform]

Neill, I have a question in regard to the MPD theory. I posted the thread Psychotronic technology and in it I talked about the CIA and a doctor in Canada (Dr. White aka Dr. Ewan Cameron) who was the head of the Canadian Psychiatric Assoc. He conducted studies into mind control by erasing memories and imposing new personalities on unwilling patients. I am quoting this from the site on him "His work revealed that subjects could be transformed into a virtual blank machine (tabula rasa) and then be reprogrammed using a technique he termed psychic driving." He created trauma in a patient by various means including electroshock therapy. He then created alters in them. They wanted to create a reliable weapon that was to be used like a sleeper. Only awakened when switched on by the programmer. Do you think that may have something in it that goes along with your ideas on MPD? I feel that your ideas are connected with my idea about possible Black Operations somehow connecting the characters. I edited this after realising that I made it seem like I was only talking to Neill, anyone else please feel free to respond if you like!

[lacenaire]

Hi thoughtform

It might be of use and connecting to your theory if we could reconstruct the original personality from which all the alters come .

The idea of a matrix doesn't imply that its end is actually healing, maybe it is as u said doing the contrary process?
OR maybe we are seeing a de-programming process?

Also that each alter have a personal song or word or number related to them could act as a triggering device. Cool. And this stressing enviroment is intended to fragment and compartamentalize each alter? Each in his/her own secret hatch? And when awaken all the others are blocked away? The voices heard are a side effect as a kind of psychosis?

I'd like to see if neill and you could apply this to explain the details of the series. A theory mustn't have exceptions cause then it's invalid.

Cheers

[lacenaire]

This theory also relates to an observation made by Sawyers muse about the dejà vues that almost all characters are having... It's better explain if we understand that what we are seeing is only one mind in different manifestations .

p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm34.showMes sage?topicID=212.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm34.showMes sage?topicID=212.topic)

[NeillT006]

This theory also relates to an observation made by Sawyers muse about the dejà vues that almost all characters are having... It's better explain if we understand that what we are seeing is only one mind in different manifestations .

Lacenaire:

Maybe I have been asleep on this one, but I have not noticed a trend involving deja vu's. Please cite some examples of what you are talkng about.

Neill

[jaystao]

Neillt006 I'm trying to be selective with my posts but I thought you might be interested in this. I posted it for the chaos theory thread but it has a place here as well. It has to do with Jung's use of using the I-ching to help schitzophrenic cases by creating 'time' and choices through random associations and synchronicity. More on this link....

www.links.net/vita/spirit/iching/pkdick.html (http://www.links.net/vita/spirit/iching/pkdick.html)

Enjoy.

PS: still not convinced but since I keep coming back to your theory everytime I do research on other topics It's starting to freak me out and I may have to convert.

[lacenaire]

Sawyermuse pointed out a few

- Jack found the water following the image of his father? Subconsciousness emerging through amnesia?

- Rose said the monster sounded familiar.

- Locke went directly towards the hatch and he felt IT.



Those three are pretty important, maybe with the reruns we'll pick more... ?

[Tinstaafl69]

what is your theory on who the original personality is?

[NeillT006]

what is your theory on who the original personality is?

Tinsta:

I'm all over the map with that.

What do you thnk?

Neill

[Tinstaafl69]

Well I thought it might be Kate since she keeps reinventing herself but then I thought, no that would be the original personality that would keep reinventing itself. I'm all over the board too. Maybe we can make a list of each one's traits and narrow it down that way.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Thought I'd swing by and see how you're doing in here. I'll just throw in my vote as of this moment.

I'm going with Claire for now because she's the one with the most motivation to integrate. She will be having a child. Strong motivation for change.

[lacenaire]

More data supporting this theory

Isn't it curious that every character that has had a flashback has also had a revelation from the island? Like some kind of induced memory can trigger a positive/desired way of thinking?

So like four years ago Hurley has his number jinks, Locke an accident that cripples him just exactly like Michael has 2 broken legs, and Jack "backstabs" his father... hmm

[lacenaire]

One more thing,


For some reason all the alters decided to go to Australia to find closure and relief in whatever issues they had. But everything turns awry for all of them. (this is a clear guilt complex pattern to me)



Hurley the numbers (I beat it has a relation with the missing father) - I've been reading how Freud analyzes Leonardo apparent obession with the "numbers" that Leonardo uses to summ up his father life. - Hurley is told that he's looking for a reason that doesn't exist.

Jack, his father. Only to find him dead without having the chance to talk.

Kate, her freedom. She gets caught

Boone, his sister. He gets her only to be rejected the minute after.

Michael, his son. He actually doesn't want him but gets stuck with him.

Charlie, his brother. Tries to rebuild Driveshaft but fails.

Sawyer, his parents "killer". He kills an innocent guy

Shannon, to con Boone for money. She gets conned herself

Locke for his aboriginal walkabout. He gets rejected.



Also we've learned that none of the alters whose motives have been revealed wanted to be on that plane.

[lacenaire]

More background...

Why is it that all alters seem never to have loved anyone or to have killed the ones they loved?

Or that the characters that think they are connecting to someone it's really all about themselves (self-centeredness) like Sawyer, Locke, Charlie, and Shannon

This personality we are dealing with has serious trouble dealing with intimacy and emotional feelings.

[NeillT006]

In that movie I mentioned before, "Identity" one of the alters tries to flee the motel where all the alters are "isolated" (etimologically it derives from insula = island) and when he thinks he's gotten to another place he then realizes he's back in the motel.

Lacenaire:

I had the chance to watch part of Identity last night.

Boy, there are some similarities, eh, at least superficially: people traveling, inescapably forced together by some external event, an unseen/unknown threat, discovered connections between the characters, the significance of numbers, a diary. Hey, it even has a bald guy and a kid.

One part that really made me perk up was when one of the female alters was trying to figure out what was going on. She says something to the effect, "this is like that movie about 10 people who are stuck on that island and start to die, one by one." (This is apparently a reference to a classic film - And Then There Was One - based upon an Agatha Christie piece, Ten Little Indians.)

Anyway, I have a better sense of the point being made by those who have said the Freud/Matrix is too derivative to be likely.

I have never been too put off by the "been there done that" objections, however. Seems to me that the taking of a theme and trying to do it better, or with a different perspective, is an honorable creative undertaking. Otherwise, libraries wouldn't be nearly so large as they are.

Neill

[lacenaire]

Ok I see that's the theme has been portrayed on the movies before, but all the relations that the characters share cannot be coincidental, there is a pattern, and it indicates to what you suggested in the first place.

Now if there's one mind inside a matrix (as I pointed out somewhere else it could be that it's not a multiple disorder but a construction of a human interactive space based on the memories of 1 single person) we have to explain why has been that person put there. To what end? And where is the matrix actually placed? And can that mind solve the test that it's been put to? Does she/he have to open the hatch, or prevent it's opened?

In my opinion, it's a hard question. I can just offer some thoughts. I've seen that ppl who are not doing anything in the island are being dispensed with. Also every attempt to try and leave the island will be sabotaged and maybe even cause death to whoever tries it. Its clear that all the dynamics of the show is pushing everyone to the forest, where the dangers and the answers are (maybe the truth is dangerous?)

This show is going deeper into the complex relations between alters. In Identity they just shared the same birthday and the were all born in a state related to their surname. I think this is much more perfect, much more polyedric, much more interesting.

You mentioned it before, but let me write it again so it can be read again. There's been a previous attempt of what we are seeing now. Danielle belonged to a previous set of 16 alters + BABY.

Again we see 16 alters (Boone (1), Charlie (2), Claire (3), Sayid (4), Ethan (5), Hurley (6), Jack (7), Kate (8) , Locke (9), Michael (10), Rose (11), Sawyer (12), Shannon (13), Sun, (14), Walt (15) and Yin (16). + BABY


It's been done before. This seems like a second generation of the previous matrix.

Remember in "MAtrix" when we are told that the first matrix was an ideal world but everyone became unhappy and they had to shut it down?

Then they made up a new matrix that would have room for personal disasters and that version worked ok for decades.

[lacenaire]

Now, I've found 2 very sound theories in this forum

One is by Neill and is referred to the human factor of the show.

The other was developed by Pinnermann and accounts for the strange physical phenomena going on; it is the philadelphia project. Maybe antigravity experiments.

My concern is how to intertwine this 2 plot lines into one simple and direct narrative . I believe they are compatible and can be explained in simple words to a general audience without having a PHD in quantum physics or jungian psychology. The rudiments of this sciences are mainstream and as Neill pointed out they have been used before on movies and books.

[lacenaire]

I've just revised episodes 1&2 and found a few things relevant to this theory:



2. Kate sew her own drapes. Claire later hung drapes in her new home and felt "adult" (that was in a following episode).

3. Rose: When she says that the "monster" sound is familiar. Someone asks her where she's from. She replies "the Bronx". So what can there be in the Bronx that sounds like that?

4. As far as we know Jack has saved (through the 18 episodes) from dying: Boone, Charlie, Claire, Rose, Michael, Shannon, BABY, Hurley and Sayid.

5. Shannon made a few "slips": She didn't translate that the frenchwoman was going to try and get to the black rock, and she misinterpreted "if someone can listen this" for "I am alone". Also she says ("it" killed them) when it is most like ("he" killed them).

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Neil,

I think it's time for the Jung meets the Matrix theory to come out. Let's have them back to back.

SHBL

[lacenaire]

Very true Sawyer

Jung said that Complexes are split parts of the psyche
their etiology is a trauma or shock

-----------------------You recovered your avatar :)

[lacenaire]

Interesting things about the "shared knowledge" between characters:

Episode 3:

1. Kates says "so we lie" referring to the french transmission but it had deeper implications for everyone there

2. Sawyer said he heard Kate told Jack if he was going to do anything about the marshall. Kate and Jack seemed pretty far away from anyone and beside the seaside, I think it's almost impossible to hear a conversation from afar.

3. Kate's trigger: Maybe they'll believe your story
-----------------------
Episode 4:

1. Locke says a walkabout is intended to bring "spiritual renewal".

2. Locke's trigger: ´Don't tell me what I can't do
-----------------------
Episode 5:

1. After Locke's encounter with "the thing" the other alters start having visions. Note how he always is very near when this happens. He must have been watching Jack very closely to know precisely where he was hanging in that cliff.

2. Walt knows the asian couple come from Korea. All the rest consider them chinese or japs.

3. Locke says to Jack: What if that person you are seeing is really here?

4. Why is the coffin empty?

5. Jack picks a drowned doll from the water doesn't it remind you of when he tries to save a woman drowning in the sea?

6. Jack doesn't tell he's seen his father or that he found an empty coffin. In the following episodes no one comments anything like "isn't it weird that this coffin is empty, where could the body be?". Nothing, nada. It's been suggested that the carrier didn't really accept the coffin, they said "there's no latitude."

7. Jack's trigger: You don't have what it takes

[lacenaire]

Episode 6:

1. Kate asks Jack "How did you find this place?" and he replies "LOCKE" !!! (not luck) !!!

2. Charlies says to Locke that the caves "are totally you"

3. Kate, Jack, Locke and Charlie entered the caves together. But Adam and Eve are only found when Kate and Jack rush alone into the caves! Kate says to jack "I don't want to be Eve"

4. Locke to Charlie "I know who you are and what you 're looking for"

5. Sun is told that once "her family believe she's dead, she'll be free to go wherever she wants"

6. Sun and Yin 's trigger: I do it for us

7. Michael: "Time doesn't matter on a damn island"
-----------------------

Episode 7:

1. Locke tells Charlie he makes "an excellent bait".

2. Charlie tells the priest about his life. I get LOST in it. It's not WHO I AM. Isn't it like that for all of them? Have they come to this island to be found? Jung talked about recognizing the shadow as a key to unifying the ego...

3. Locke (??) gives Charlie a religious experience: He gets to be inside a cave (we know it's been used as a sepulchre) and then guided by a moth (symbol of resurrection, mystical rebirth) he returns from the "underworld".

4. Sawyer says: the difference between Jack and him isn't that big"

5: Charlie's trigger: You have no choice.

6. Locke "the island might give you what you want but you got to give the island something in return"

7. The person who attacked Sayid is much more smaller than him. Of all the known characters only Danielle and Claire where unaccounted for; and we also know Danielle has a rifle so you know my suspicions lean on Claire...

-----------------------
Episode 8:

1. When Sawyer tells Kate he's been tortured by " a spinal surgeon" How did he know that? We've seen Jack telling that only to her (Is there a transference of conscience happening between the alters?)

2. Sawyer's trigger: I became the man I was hunting

3. Locke gives Sayid the knife he'll use to stab Sawyer. On no evidence he accuses him too.

[lacenaire]

About the flashbacks...

Rather than being "natural memories" they seem to happen only to explain to 2 fundamental questions:

1. Who am I? or What defines my identity?
2. Why am I here?

[lacenaire]

Episode 9:

1. Ethan and Locke tell Hurley they 've been going RABBIT HUNTING (watership down!!??)

2. Sayid 's trigger: I don't want to hurt you

3. Danielle takes Sayid and asks him why is he alone

4. Robert gave Danielle that box, now Sayid fixes it. (a box is freudian for sexual pleasure?)

5. Nadia tells Sayid: You are pretending to be someone you are not.

6. Sayid takes the maps and papers but leaves Nadia's picture when he escapes.

7. Sayid has been holding on 7 years to a blind hope that Nadia is alive (Maybe that's why he went to australia?) (Also went to australia following a blind hope: Jack, Sawyer, Locke, Charlie, Boone, Hurley, Michael, Kate? ...)

8. Sayid couldn't kill nadia and he couldn't kill danielle (nadia stole his courage and danielle a part of the gun).
-----------------------
Episode 10

1. In Claire's dream locke's eyes are white and black stones (how could she know those rocks that Jack and claire found with adam and eve?)

2. When Claire has a dream Locke is "the seer" and he talks to her right before she sees the cradle

3. In every attack Charlie is very close to Claire

4. Rain: Something bad happens every time it rains???

5. For Claire, hanging Drapes = mom role

6. Claire's flashback: She was abandoned by her father.Then by his boyfriend.

7. Locke said to Hurley he came to Australia to find something. But IT found him.

8. The psychic sees "a blurry thing" (which is bad) and yet he sends Claire on that flight?

9. Claire didn't want her baby and now someone is trying to steal it... Locke in her dream said to her "it was your responsibility and you gave him up, now we all pay the consecuences"

-----------------------

Episode 11

1. Jack's flashback is about his conflict with his father. He loses a pregnant girl like he loses pregnant Claire.

2. If Jack was closer to the OR, why did the nurses called his father?

3. Hurley says that he's known "like something of a warrior back home"

4. Kate's father: Being in the woods was like a religion to him

5. Only Jack hears Claire scream. Only he sees Ethan.

6. Jack keeps going after Claire and Charlie (and Ethan??) because "he's not going to let him do it again"

7. Charlie says that he didn't see, hear or remember anything, then he contradicts himself saying "all they wanted was her"

[lacenaire]

Episode 12:

1. Shannon's trigger : You are useless. (In Kant's Aesthetics beauty has no purpose, or to put it correctly it is a purpuse on its own)

2. Sayid: Some things are best left untranslated

3. The key is buried: Jack and Kate dig the marschall's grave; Boone and locke dig the hatch.

4. Jack needed to bury the marshall like he needed to bury his father. Why? Burial is a rite intended to placate the spirit of the dead (=bad conscience).

5. Jack admits he could cause pain on purpose

6. A plane in box 815 is a clue to take flight 815?

[lacenaire]

La Mer:

It is very much related to this theory the "reflets changeants" of the lyrics are "shifting reflections" like every alter is in relation to the multiple's mind??

Rain:

In the song La mer the whole sentence says "la mer a de reflets changeants sous la pluie" that is "Under the rain the sea has shifting reflections".

Now, so far we've seen that the gravest outbreaks of violence happen when it rains. ANy relation?

[NeillT006]

It is very much related to this theory the "reflets changeants" of the lyrics are "shifting reflections" like every alter is in relation to the multiple's mind??

Lacenaire:

I like that.

Neill

[lacenaire]

Episode 13:

1. Locke says the rest is not ready and won't understand (that there is a hatch?? or something else?)

2. By now there's a big net of secrets and lies: please don't tell anyone seems to be the motto

3. Locke: I wasn't the most popular kid.

4. Locke starts talking about "sides"

5. Hurley suspects Yin speaks English right after Sun tells Kate she speaks English?

6. Boone's vision: It establishes this thought in his mind "If you tell anyone I will kill them"

7. Locke says those visions are vital for everyone survival and that they are as real as they want to make them
-----------------------
Episode 14

1. Jack: I listened too well to my dad when I was 10

2. Locke: Teaching Walt to project. Who is to say it isn't real?

3. Two sides: Investigating the island vs Leaving the island

4. Locke tells Walt he needs to respect his father. The experience shared by Walt and Michael is conducive to that effect.

5. Locke establishes a paralell Vincent (dog) - Michael : He'll find his way back to you.

6. Claire writes in her diary about a black rock.

7. Locke blows his whistle to find the dog and Claire reappears when the labrador is missing still (Remember Locke's story about a WHITE DOG being his sister?)-----------------------

Episode 15

1. Charlie's flashback is about his incapacity to take care of anyone. And his desire of being respectable.

2. Ethan appears only to Charlie. When he tells the others about Ethan they can see him too. Ethan forces Charlie to take care of Claire. Charlie kills Ethan. Claire trusts Charlie.

3. Charlie steals an object that belonged "to a great leader of the empire". He steals Jack's gun to kill Ethan.

4. Winston CHurchill's coat of arms: Rampaging lion and a motto in spanish (fiel pero desdichado = faithful but unfortunate).

[lacenaire]

Episode 16

1. Sawyer's trigger: You ain't the killing type

2. Sawyer said that Jack and him weren't so different...
a) Both have been told "they ain't got what it takes"
b) Both had Jack's father telling them what to do
c) They are about the same age

3. Sawyer's revenge is against the con man or against his own father?

4. Hurley foretells (to Charlie): This is gonna end with you and me running throught the jungle...

5. Locke's story about her mother-sister-dog gives Sawyer the key to interpret his flashbacks-dreams-hallucinations. It wasn't your fault

6. Sayid like Sawyer admits to have dreams caused by a bad conscience.
7. Jack has the key??
-----------------------
Episode 17

1. Shannon ties knots like a navy soldier???

2. Yin decides to stop working for his dad after he's seen by the child of the guy he's beating up. Just like Sawyer did.

3. Start again: Locke to Shannon; (=) Yin's father advice;Michael and Walt (raft as a medium)

4. Locke knows Walt did it. How?

5. Locke says that "others" are attacking them and yet he likes the island (like Walt, even after he was attacked by a bear?)

6. Hurley runs out of distractions (batteries) and will have to start thinking... about the numbers?

[lacenaire]

Episode 18

1. Hurley is catholic. Maybe like Locke? He had a flag with the cross of burgundy at home and he says "he believes in many things". Charlie is catholic. Rose is very religious.

2. Hurley is out alone and the 3 that follow appear just when he needs them. In the nick of time.

3. Behind Lenny there is a pink tree with claw-like roots. Sawyer said that he once wore pink.

4. Another reference to the US Navy, this time is where Lenny worked and picked the numbers up.

5. Hurley's trigger: I am not crazy

6. Rousseau lowers her weapon when he gets mad. Rousseau appeared after Hurley had hit his head hard against the ground.

7. Inconsistency in Rousseau: She says to Hurley that the radio tower is in the black Rock; but in the transmission she says she's going to try and get to it (so the radio station and the black rock are in different locations???.)

8. Claire tells Locke she was going to give her baby away. She dreamed of him accusing her of doing so.

[lacenaire]

Another "fact" to support the Matrix theory:

When Locke came into the plane he must have entered on his wheel chair and being those alleys between seats so narrow someone must have noticed him. And yet no one did.

[faketree]

I think people in wheelchairs and such are first ones on/first ones off type of deal. Therefore it is possible that no one noticed him. Especially if they got him seated in a regular seat and stowed his wheelchair somewhere. So the only people who knew would be flight attendants.

Although you would think it would mention something on the manifest about him needing 'special assistance'.

[lacenaire]

Dead couples (mommy and daddy) found dead together:

Sawyer: Mommy and daddy

Kate and Sawyer: 2 passengers under the water (they guarded the case of guns!!)

Kate and Jack: Adam & Eve (they guarded the 2 B & W stones)

-----------------------

I've been thinking about the pilot in episode 1...

He "resurrects" to deliver basically this message: You are lost, and no one knows where you are. He gives them "the magic object" that can lead them to the next clue and is conveniently retired off scene like a "deus ex machina".

[lacenaire]

2 males competing for a female:

Jack_Sawyer - Kate

Boone_Sayid - Shannon

Yin_Michael - Sun

[EDITED]
This looks like a Jungian conflict of archtypes
It has a mythical precedent in the triangle Hefestus_Apolo - Aphrodite

[lacenaire]

Don't forget to vote for Neil's theory in...

VOTE FOR THE BEST THEORY (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm32.showMes sage?topicID=124.topic)

[NeillT006]

Is Kate A Twin? (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1491.topic)

There appear to be some developing ties between that thread and this one.

N.

[lacenaire]

Another basis for the matrix theory would be the very weak reasons they all had to be in that particular flight.

THey seem too forced to me... don't you think?

-----------------------
How did the survivors came round after the accident?

Who opened his eyes first? Jack
What if this is like a mathematical structure that you open one bracket and then open a sub-bracket and then another one ... all of them in a lower level than the first bracket opened?

It would be like a concentrical structure, all circles seem independent but in fact the have the same center and are part of the bigger circle...
-----------------------

A painter called ROUSSEAU painted a "dream" on an island... (http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/rousseau/rousseau.dream.jpg)
-----------------------
The characters after the crash don't seem to be where they should be. For instance, how come Jack wakes up in the jungle and Rose who was sitting next to him is on the beach. How could Kate appear also so far into the jungle when the marshal was lying on the beach with a strap of metal through his stomach???

[lacenaire]

Something a little different ...

So far we've assumed that the flashbacks are real accounts of past events, what if they're not? What if they are excuses? What if they are the lies they are lost in?
THe process would be trying for them to admit they are lies and start thinking how to change their lives? This puts us back in the anti-social instead of the multiple? Or is the system forcing the patient to project the inner conflict as a mean to recognize it and empathize with it and gain insight into it? Like a gestalt approach to psychological treatment?

1. Jack
He had some kind of accident during medical training. Alcoholism?
He dropped out and somehow blames his father

2. Sawyer
He is a grifter and a murderer
His excuse is that someone did it to him as a child

3. Yin
He killed a man
He blames his father in law

4. Sun
She married Yin to piss her dad
She is unhappy because of her dad

5. Kate
Killed a few
She claims someone adopts her identity and frames her

6. Claire
She was giving her child away
She (passive-aggressively) blames her dad for leaving her

7. Charlie
He's a junkie to boot
He blames his brother

8. Michael
He was irresponsible and couldn't be trusted to raise a child
It was his wife who was mean and cold and wouldn't let him be a daddy

9. Walt
Causes bad things to happen
It's because they don't pay attention to him

10. Shannon
Rips Boone
It's her step mum's fault for stealing her money

11. Hurley
He disappointed his family. His factory burns down...
His excuse is that he's jinxed. It's the numbers' fault

12. Sayid
Tortured and killed a few
His excuse is that it was his duty

I still have to found similarities in this cases: Locke & Boone, Rose and Ethan

[NeillT006]

So far we've assumed that the flashbacks are real accounts of past events, what if they're not?

Lacenaire:

There was quite a bit of discussion on this idea several weeks ago:

What If The Flashbacks Are Not In Real Space? (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1000.topic&start=1&stop=20)

Neill

[lacenaire]

Hi Neill, thanks for the links

I've read the thread but no one suggested they might be "excuses" instead of real accounts.

[lacenaire]

Thanks Neill for the interesting link

I've got a question for you and the rest of the habitual visitors of this forum:

- How do you think this matrix theory can be resolved in a dramatic way and how could it be relevant in an artistic sense?
- What would make it worth while watch a VR therapy?

[NeillT006]

Lacenaire:

Come to chat.

Neill

[NeillT006]

LOST-TV: you and JJ have denied the purgatory one. Are there others that stick in your mind that are NOT the answer to the mystery/
DAMON: What mystery?
LOST-TV: the mystery of the island. The infamous “they’re dead an in purgatory"
LOST-TV: All the fans have a theory: it's the Island of Dr. Moreau, it's an experiment. Any of these theories come to mind which NOT the answer are -- but which kind of make you think, "Wow, that was cool."
DAMON: I think it's really interesting that people think there is ONE definitive answer.
DAMON: Here's something that it is NOT...
DAMON: This is not a fictional reality that is playing out in someone's brain.
LOST-TV: well thank goodness for that.
DAMON: Like I've heard that they're all different personalities inside Locke, or something.
LOST-TV: "Emily, I just had the weirdest dream I was an innkeeper in Vermont"
DAMON: To this I say, "Yes. I saw 'Identity,' too. And I did not like it."
DAMON: Newhart. Well, THAT was classic.
LOST-TV: This is good to know. We were discussing that last night at lost-tv chat, btw.

Well, if he is to believed I guess that kills the alters theory.

But, I am hanging on to where it started.

Neill

[Coyote1066]

I don't think all of your work was for nothing Neil. It was/is a thought provoking theory. Besides, I think the show is still very much about the human psyche. It may not be a fictional reality but the character's perceptions, fears and phobias still shape the direction of the show.

-Coyote

[sawyerhasbestlines]

The discussions in this thread and others are still worth pursuing simply because they are fun exploring through a particular POV. And as I've said before, some of us get more from these discussions than from the show itself. It's 2 different forms of entertainment. For me, at this point, the show is a platform to express and share ideas. I don't think it can ever really about who's theory is "right" especially since the writers change things when it needs to change.

So don't throw out your baby with the bathwater.

[drabauer]

Yes, I think psychology has everything to do with this show, just not ONE person's psychology. A lot of what's been said on this thread is as applicable to the faux realism of 40+ people on an island as it is to 40+ people on a virtual island.

[NeillT006]

Yes, I think psychology has everything to do with this show, just not ONE person's psychology. A lot of what's been said on this thread is as applicable to the faux realism of 40+ people on an island as it is to 40+ people on a virtual island.

DOC:

He never said it wasn't a virtual reality. He merely said that it wasn't all in the mnd of one person ala Identity (which he apparently hated but I thought was pretty good).

Maybe this is too fine a distinction, but I need to reflect on it for a bit.

Neill

[lacenaire]

Yeah Neill, cheer up mate!

THis main characters are so similar that they appear to be like different representations of the same person. If that's not it maybe they respond to a very similar pattern and that leads to the supposition that they've been chosen by someone for some purpose...

I wouldn't like that this 16 people happened to be on the same plane for no reason, just a coincidence, it wouldn't fit at all. Writers can say what they want but they 've given all the characters some kind of "family resemblance" so to speak.

Also, So far we've seen induced dreams, induced memories and induced hallucinations. If they are not generalted in a matrix, the other possibilities sound quite unscientific (mind controlling aliens or religious/paranormal phenomena)

Let's wait and think like you suggested Neil.
You got drabauer, sawyerHBL and coyote supporting you!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I don't know where this thread will go now, but I think we can still discuss some of the psychological stuff here.

Trinabolina pointed out in her thread of observations, that the "red folder" of Locke's case, had a 815 number on it. And she suggests that perhaps the institution she was in, (forgot the name) is the same one Hurley, and therefore Lenny was in.

I'm going to take an opposite approach, and wonder if they are all mis-diagnosed. I'm thinking Swoozie Kurtz (Locke's mom) was hospitalized for schizophrenia because she gets hallucinations, but I'm thinking the hallucinations are real.

I don't know if they are literally connected to a matrix like in the movie, but I do think they may victims of an interconnected event from a long time ago. Them crashing on the island is simply the critical mass of these culminated events.

[thoughtform]

I'm still wondering about the institution. I think that we are going to see what these people have in common revolves around that and something to do with powerful and military or wealthy parents.(or fathers)

[lacenaire]

Hi Neill

As spotted in this thread (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1566.topic)

Both Locke and Hurley are related to a mental health institute in Santa Rosa (Cal.)

[drabauer]

SHTBL, I like that misdiagnosis-connection connection! Perhaps we'll find out that characters and their families have received communications for years in the form of visions, cryptic events or some other serendipitous but strange way. This may have led some to be institutionalized (Hurley, Emily Locke), other on wild goose chases (Sawyer or Kate perhaps?), and still others to make that fateful decision to board Flight 815 (Claire, Charlie).

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Drabauer,

I was remembering how much Hurley needed validation from anyone that he wasn't crazy. It seemed like he would trade all the money in the world for just one person to believe he wasn't crazy and that the numbers were cursed. And then I remember how calm and sane Rose seemed and was convinced her husband is still alive somewhere.

---

Side thought: Santa Rosa hospital
Saint Rose - perhaps Rose will tie into this.

[lacenaire]

Hey drabauer, you mean like in "encounters of the 3rd kind"?

[NeillT006]

but all the relations that the characters share cannot be coincidental, there is a pattern, and it indicates to what you suggested in the first place.

Lacenaire:

The March 30 episode certainly furthered that notion.

I am thinking about Locke and Boone. Given the story we hear about Locke, it is now fairly certain that Locke's sister was not his biological sister -- like Boone.

And, it is interesting to me that Boone has a story that involves someone dying in a fall -- as apparently does Locke.

I have no conclusions to draw. But it is grist for the mill.

Neill

[lacenaire]

I am thinking that there is more dramatic story-lines in which this theory could be framed:

1. A VR to Test soldiers (1 soldier - 1 mind - splitted personalities) in nuclear silos. Will they dare to push the button? In Wargames they said that soldiers cracked when having to face that decision and they had to put JOSHUA (That's the original aramaic name of Jesus) in charge.

2. A VR + real island experimentation with Clones or droids (that have brain chips implanted to induce dreams, visions, etc). Their software could have been planted with the memories of their creator to give them a background and emotional stability. This trend will be a continuation of Bladerunner or The boys from Brazil. THe aim will be to find a way of cloning/making droids that are not psychotic and murderous beasts. The sickness will be the experiments acting up like in those movies. Ethan reminded me a lot of Rutger Hauer in Bladerunner.

3. THis could be integrated in a larger scale experiment like the philadelphia experiment or any other experiment, with the clones/droids as test subjects.

4. [EDITED] Also i have just read the theory that thoughtform put forward about creating alters in a person to create undetectable spies and killers. With a trigger word or music to set them active.

So it can still be one mind and many representations of it without having to be all that's happened a dream of 1 single person.

What do you think , Neill and fellow boarders?

[thoughtform]

lacenaire, I agree with your idea about it being more than one mind. The creators said that there would be more than one answer as to what is going on. This suggests many layers and possibly more than one type of thing that is going on. We could be dealing with Government research on one level, and good vs. evil on another, karma on another level, strange geographic anomalies on yet another. I think we may see these tied together very nicely by the writers, especially when they are probably getting half their ideas from us!

[drabauer]

lacenaire, I don't recall "Close Encoutners" well, but I am thinking a bit less mystical, more along the lines of direct manipulation, even if pyschological.

Neill, good call, it is indeed. These folks were all orphaned in the sense of physically and/or emotionally abandoned, and are finding family by constructing it, if they're able. Maybe Anthony Cooper wasn't even Locke's father, but knew that his kidney would be "special," that is, wouldn't be rejected. Maybe Sawyer's father committed suicide/murder because he discovered that little James wasn't his! And where is Hurley's dad? Was the doomed uncle from his maternal side?

And maybe Rose is convinced Bernard is alive because she knows that he's "special."

I am experiencing an unfortunate X-files shiver of recognition.

[lacenaire]

Hey thanks thoughtform

It's been said in the episode 19 thread, but not proven.
As it relates to this theory i put this pictures here.
THE CAR that hits Locke and the car that hits Michael is the same car!!!

And both accidents happened around 1996 !!!

I'll erase the pictures in a couple of days to save bandwidth.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/lacenaire/carinmall.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/lacenaire/carrunsmichael.jpg

[NeillT006]

I'll erase the pictures in a couple of days to save bandwidth.

Lace:

I'm not sure that this affects the board's bandwidth (although it may affect bandwidth at the user's end).

But, if you kill the images at least link them so that we have them for the future.

Neill

[lacenaire]

Hi drabauer

In Enconters of the 3rd kind, different people from all over america are implanted an image and a music melody.

The image is "devil 's montain"
and the music notes were coded coordinates.

All of them had the uncontrolable urge to find out what it meant. Only a few made the connection and actually went there .

That is one of my favourite movies ever.

[thoughtform]

Me too !

[drabauer]

lacenaire, great catch with the cars! Oh there is something more than coincidence going on!

I am not onboard with androids, etc., but keep all the spec coming!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Maybe Anthony Cooper wasn't even Locke's father

My exact thought!

We know the DNA for the mother is close enough for her to be his mother, but I don't think we know that is Locke's dad.

If Anthony Cooper was really Locke's father, I don't think he'd shut the door on him so fast. He'd be fascinated at things like just looking at him and hearing his voice. (I say this from experience.) The behavior is not right - unless he's a total psychopath.

Bottom line: I'm not convinced that is Locke's real father, though it is probable that Emily is his mother.

[lacenaire]

This is rather wobbly but i present to you for your consideration:

Virgin statuettes - Drugs - Hurley - Charlie

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/lacenaire/Statuettes.jpg

It's curious that Marx said that religion was like opium for the masses...

Added: Mary (jane) / María is the slang word used for drugs in spanish and english countries

[sawyerhasbestlines]

pictures are worth a 1000 words.

[lacenaire]

Episode 19 considerations

1. Boone and Locke experienced a death by fall of someone close. In both cases it was a girl. They probably were the same age too.
2. Michael and Locke were run down by the same car in 1996. The driver was an unidentified male (judging by his voice).
3. Virgin Mary statuettes (?): Drugs, Hurley and Charlie. Marx: Religion is like opium for the masses.
Mary (jane) and María (spanish) are slang words for "drugs"
4. Weak mother and evil dad: This connects Locke, Sun, Sawyer and Jack.
5. Santa Rosa Hospital: Connects Hurley, Lenny, the numbers, and Locke's mother .
6. Locke read a "Lost dog" sign. The first thing he did was to find a dog, Vincent.
7. Locke turns into his father reluctantly sacrificing his son. This connects : Yin, Sawyer, Jack, Locke.
8. Sawyer's glasses are black & white: adam and eve's stones
9. Locke and his peculiar knowledges and skills: shooting, engineering, recognizing african money, tracking, weird knots, close range fighting, knife throwing, hunting, survival, strategy games... If that's not a military profile... problably navy seal or delta force or sth like that? That would relate Locke and Sayid. Plus the fighting skills shown by Jack and Kate ...
10. Numbers: Locke's mother previous admission code in her formulary : 5-6-4-8-15
11. Numbers bis: THey are landmarks of bad experiences?
4 years ago Locke was paralyzed. 8 years ago Locke's parents conned him to steal a kidney. 16 years ago Boone's nanny broke her neck. 8 years ago Michael was hit by a car.
12. A grudge / revenge against their fathers: Jack, Sawyer, Yin, Sun, Walt, Locke, Claire
13. Jack's and Locke's wounds on the same place: left side of the lower back.

An afterthought: Locke's mother date of birth was 1940. How old is Locke? Can she be his mother?

[NeillT006]

An afterthought: Locke's mother date of birth was 1940. How old is Locke? Can she be his mother?

Good question.

He has to be in his 50s himself.

Is that his (dead) "sister"?

N.

[jaystao]

lacenaire you have a gift with details/lists. The car idea is beginning to influence me, except that Micheal was hit at night time and Locke was hit during the day? What might that mean for our alter ego super personality? The same circular motions in events, repeating like the numbers, over and over again, yet the events are similar but not necessarily with the same out come though physical occurrences or locales seem to apply, both Micheal and Locke ended up in a hospital. Heres a possibility, perhaps the car incident represented a jolt in the ego 'supremacy', perhaps it was Michaels 'time out' so to speak and Locke's turn to have some action?

[Coyote1066]

And, it is interesting to me that Boone has a story that involves someone dying in a fall -- as apparently does Locke.

I have no conclusions to draw. But it is grist for the mill.

Neill

Neill, I have a thought about this. It seems that the reason Theresa was even mentioned in the episode was to tell Locke what needed to be done. Boone says he made Theresa go up and down the stairs out of spite, but I think the message Locke was to receive was "let Boone go up". I think this is reinforced by Locke seeing Boone covered in blood. I'm starting to believe there are two forces at work on the Island. I think Locke's original encounter with the "monster" may have been with the "benign" force, while his dream was caused by the "malevolent" force. Locke, believing he's still working for the "benign" force, was tricked by the "malevolent" force. This "malevolent" force knew the only way to open the hatch was to have Boone make the radio call which would stir the occupants of the hatch. This "malevolent" force has been unable to open the hatch in the past and doesn't want to risk losing a potential pawn in Locke. I'm still not sure what is in the hatch, perhaps the "benign" force or maybe a prize that is being sought by both sides.

- Coyote

P.S. I meant to mention this before. I think the drug smuggler dressed as a priest and the drugs inside the Mary statues are symbolic of the old "wolf in sheep's clothing" saying. This may mean that all along Locke has believed he was following a good force but in reality the force was really evil disguised as good.

[drabauer]

Great observations lacenaire and coyote! The symbolism is overwhelming at times, and hard to keep track of. I want to add just one more thing: the effect of the death-by-falling was to take out a female caretaker in each case: directly for Boone, and indirectly for Locke (since it caused his foster mother to withdraw into depression). And if Emily Locke was his mother (the ages don't work, but maybe she was knocked up at 14), she may have been manipulated into the mental health center (since the intake form read self-admit). Whatever the case, our castaways have been forceably isolated from either parents or guardians, yet someone has also kept track of them. So I think there is at least one conspiracy afoot.

As to whether there's a postive and negative force in competition, that is a very reasonable assumption based on what we've seen. Or it could be one extremely fickle entity/group!

[SpidermanHouston]

An afterthought: Locke's mother date of birth was 1940. How old is Locke? Can she be his mother?

That would make her 64 in the year 2004. If she had him at the age of 18, Locke would be 46 in the year 2004. So it's possible.

[lacenaire]

Edited

[LoStMyMiNd]

Locke is older than 46. I think he's in his 50s or early 60s

[LostInWilderness]

Coyote, you've probably noticed my posts about good and evil, redemption, godlike technology and whatnot. I think these are major themes in the show. That doesn't mean the powers on the island can be classified as good or benevolent or evil or malevolent.

Adam and Eve and backgammon, IMO, are the major yin-yang references that point to two opposing forces working on the island, and there are a dozen more subtle references as well, but to my knowledge we can't point to the forces themselves being either good or evil, just opposed. My guess is both are gray, and viewers like us will debate if either is good or evil every episode - and change sides often along the way.

[SpidermanHouston]

Locke is older than 46. I think he's in his 50s or early 60s


The actor thay plays Locke is 52 years old in real life. He could easily be playing a 46 year old man.

[spooky]

2. Michael and Locke were run down by the same car in 1996.
I’m sorry, I’ve been keeping up with the board while I’ve been doing the transcripts, but I don’t remember anything about figuring out how it was 1996. Did I miss some obvious clue during the episode? Can someone please fill me in, pretty please?

I did think it was strange that whoever hit Locke just drove away. Did Emily draw Locke to the back of the car on purpose?

9. Locke and his peculiar knowledges and skills: shooting, engineering, recognizing african money, tracking, weird knots, close range fighting, knife throwing, hunting, survival, strategy games... If that's not a military profile... probably navy seal or delta force or sth like that? That would relate Locke and Sayid. Plus the fighting skills shown by Jack and Kate ...
This one is very strange to me. Not the connections, but how Locke knows what he knows. At first I thought he just read a lot, but his demeanor and actions in his flashbacks just don’t seem to match with someone who knows so much. Boone even says, “I don’t get you, man. One minute you’re quoting Nietzsche, now all of the sudden you’re an engineer.” I’m wondering if after what happened with his “father” he undertook to become more knowledgeable, to best him somehow (maybe he did some kind of military training then?) Or, maybe the "island" has endowed him with some kind of encyclopedic knowledge?

coyote wrote:
It seems that the reason Theresa was even mentioned in the episode was to tell Locke what needed to be done. Boone says he made Theresa go up and down the stairs out of spite, but I think the message Locke was to receive was "let Boone go up".
I can see how the up the stairs/down the stairs thing had to do with Boone and the plane, but I feel like I’m missing something. I mean, more than usual. I keep trying to stay with the characters and why they react the way they do. I was struck when Boone confessed about Theresa. I was thinking Boone told Locke about Theresa because Locke has just spilled the beans about being paralyzed. Boone had complained about Locke not sharing anything about his life, so when he did, Boone felt comfortable reciprocating. So Locke helps Boone with another one of his issues. Can anyone help Locke?

[LostInWilderness]

Spooky, human Locke is a very weak, flawed human. Island Locke is an empowered Spirit Guide for the island powers and the lostaways. Deus Ex Machina allowed us to see human Locke on the island. It wasn't pretty, and Boone paid the price.

[lacenaire]

Hi Spooky

About how do I get the year 1996...

1. MIchael calls his exwife when Walt is 24 months old. Now Walt is 10 so then his accident was 8 years ago, that is 1996.
2. Locke's mother driving licence expired in 1994
3. Locke's mother hospital formulary: Shows that a previous admission was in 1992. The last admission might have been in 1995/96, it's too blurry to see.
4. Michael was hit by the same car that hit Locke. The car was in fairly the same condition in both accidents, shiny shine.

I think it's not too giant a leap to suppose the car hit those characters the same year...

Maybe license plates will help, or even the model of the car can give us a post quam date...

[LostInWilderness]

Coyote writes:
Boone says he made Theresa go up and down the stairs out of spite, but I think the message Locke was to receive was "let Boone go up"

I disagree. Suppose Boone hadn't appeared in Locke's dream, what would have happened? Either Boone wouldn't have come along or exactly the same thing. Sticking to my two powers theory, the hatch wanted Boone to go so it created the vision. The tower didn't want them to go, so it covered Boone in blood to warn Locke not to let him climb up there.

[LoStMyMiNd]

Locke looks much older than 52. I am 51 and I don't think anyone would mistake me for 46. Actually I think Locke looks like he is 60 which in my opinion is not old at all ;)

[SpidermanHouston]

Locke looks much older than 52. I am 51 and I don't think anyone would mistake me for 46. Actually I think Locke looks like he is 60 which in my opinion is not old at all

He's 52 in real life but I agree he looks a lot older and I dont really think he's playing a 46 year old. But you never know. Is it me or does he look like he's aged 10 years since the first episode?

[drabauer]

I agree with ODammet on all counts. And I think the character of Locke appears to be much older than other recent characters Terry O'Quinn has played on X-Files, Harsh Realm, and Alias, among others.

Or is he only meant to represent someone who's lived a hard life?

[NeillT006]

he is 60 which in my opinion is not old at all

Right on.

Neill
Class of 1950

[lacenaire]

Hi Coyote, have you opened a thread with your theory Evil vs Good?

In a certain Shalman Rushdie's novel there are 2 survivors of a plane crash and they turn into ministers of good and evil with side stories that sort of manifest the same struggle...

That was the book, drabauer. I'm scared even of writing its title, you know...

[drabauer]

Lacenaire, can you give us a title? I am only familiar with Satanic Verses and Midnight's Children.

Sounds more promising than the Stand!

Oh my goodness, I forgot about the plane crash! That was a great book! I read it quite awhile ago; it got me to read up on Islam. I mostly remember the parts in England and the "re-telling" of Mohammed's story. Hmmmmmmm.......

[Coyote1066]

Spooky and lostinwilderness, you may be right. After watching it again it does appear the sole reason was to give Locke a carrot to dangle in from of Boone.

Hi Coyote, have you opened a thread with your theory Evil vs Good?
lacenaire, I would, but I think it's already being discussed in lostinwilderness' high ground vs. hatch (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1556.topic) thread. I need to repost over there when I get the chance.

[DontWannaBLost]

I see in multiple threads where folks have said Locke is 46 years old, but I haven't seen the explanation...can someone post it/link to it? Thanks!

P.S. I actually thought Locke's character was younger than that, but looked older due to an over-abundance of "life experiences"

[lacenaire]

Hi don'twannabelost

46 is the oldest he can be without the series turning into a michael jackson reality show. Remember his alleged mother was born in 1940.

Cheers

[LoStMyMiNd]

Unless she was lying about her being his mother

[DontWannaBLost]

46 is the oldest he can be without the series turning into a michael jackson reality show.
^^^So true!

Guess I'm just thinking he could be younger than 46...I'd believe it if TPTB made him as young as 42ish...then again, I'd let Clint Eastwood pass for 65 and he's nearly a decade older!

[lacenaire]

There was no plane crash
This things in my opinion make it impossible:

0. Huge elipsis!!! Have we actually seen the plane crash??!!
1. Jack was almost a hundred yards away from Rose,
2. the same happened between Kate and the marshal.


a) If it's all a matrix VR: Death experiences in the matrix cause actual death.

b) If it's a real life experiment (+brainchips or +hollographic VR) then it's clear you cannot crash a plane like that and expect to have test subjects that survive. That experiment I'd like it to be like pinnerman wrote in his Philadelphia Experiment theory, but there could be others...

Anyway, let's hope the writers give us something more to chew up on any time soon.
-----------------------
Hi Neil, after watching The Forgotten (with the amazing Julianne Moore) I can suggest another reason to use a matrix for therapy: coping with the death of a relative.
-----------------------
Added: This is just something without too much base: Could we say that Kate and Sun (maybe even Shannon) have been pregnant before??
- Sun: Jin asked her if Claire was gonna be ok. SHe just said "I'm sure" and they exchanged sad looks... Miscarriage?
- Kate: She killed someone (the man) he loved + a toy plane?
- Shannon: It's possible, isn't it?

-----------------------
Comments on episode 1x20

1. In the previous episode a girl died in Jack's OR. Supposedly it was Jack's father fault. Now Jack is marrying a girl that got hit by a car head on (remember Hurley's episode).

2. This baby is all of ours! said Kate

3. Don't tell me what I can't do! said Jack (Locke's phrase)

4. I let you off the hook. Said Boone to Jack. Just like Rose did.

5. Jack's problem is he can't let go. This looks like a therapy tailored for that purpose. He had to let go the drowning woman, the marshal and now Boone.
-----------------------
From episode 18 - numbers
1. This one escaped me. I found it here (http://www.cubit.net/lostStuff.php). The lotto girl is the same red haired girl Sawyer is with when he finds Hicks in this hotel room.

[spooky]

Added: This is just something without too much base: Could we say that Kate and Sun (maybe even Shannon) have been pregnant before??

I'm not sure about being pregnant before, but something is up with Kate. The way she was so adamant about not wanting to deliver the baby reminded me of her saying she didn't want to be Eve back in House of the Rising Sun. Maybe she can't have kids and it makes her sad? Or maybe she's afraid there's something about her that would make her harmful to a child?

[lacenaire]

Hi spooky, thanks again for the help with the subs. I finished them this afternoon. Available here (http://subxpacio.sharerip.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) (Free website)
-----------------------

Remember Kate couldn't bear seeing Sawyer mistreat the piglet and hearing it cry?
Also someone wrote in the preggers theory that Shannon said her feet were swelling...

-----------------------
On another note. I finally watched Matthew Fox getting married. I watched a couple or three seasons of Party of 5 and he was always screwing things. Good for him. His "stream of conscience as an actor has evolved" or something I guess. He's more mature altogether.

[LostInWilderness]

spooky writes:
I'm not sure about being pregnant before, but something is up with Kate.
When Kate stumbled over her words saying, "I ... am scared too," I got the distinct impression she almost said "I was scared too."

[lacenaire]

Very true Lostinwilderness

I'm glad to see that the transference of conscience includes feminine aspects.

Don't you think Sun has had some experience related to child bearing too? In the episode where Claire reappeared she said she knew Claire was alright and then exchanged a sad glance with Jin. I also remember Yin gave that dog as a present and told her something like "now you will have someone to care for" like he had to compensate her for a loss...

[LostInWilderness]

lacenaire writes:
In the episode where Claire reappeared she said she knew Claire was alright and then exchanged a sad glance with Jin. I also remember Yin gave that dog as a present and told her something like "now you will have someone to care for" like he had to compensate her for a loss...
I noticed that at the time, but never gave it a second thought. It was before I found this board, and I didn't examine the episodes so closely;)
And what if Jack can't be the husband and father he wants to be? I'm pretty damn sure he isn't a father. Is there a lost baby in his closet?

[LoStMyMiNd]

I just remember that Kate can't stand the sight of blood so maybe that why she was scared to be involved in the delivery. I'd be scared because I have never delivered a baby and I would be afraid I would do something wrong.

I don't think Jack had a baby with his wife, otherwise we would be seeing a more emotional Jack as far as the baby is concerned and he was happy that the baby was healthy. I didn't see any sadness on his part

Lacenaire what do you mean, Jack was always screwing something in Party of 5? What was he screwing?

[lacenaire]

Hi Odamnet

Not to drive this thread off topic, please. I somehow remember Jack in "Party of five" always backing up on his brides when he was going to marry, and leaving the poor girls a mess, I remember specially poor Kirsten. I didn't watch the end of the show but for me seeing him getting married on TV was like ... finally he did it!. I think that his possible backing on this wedding too might have been a sign sent to Matthew fox's fans.
-----------------------
To see Actors as intertext characters can make watching the show a bit more fun sometimes. Imagine Dr. Hannibal Lecter in Howards End... . It was just a remark, do not take too seriously.

[NeillT006]

2. This baby is all of ours! said Kate

Lace:

I know there is a debate over this line going on over in another thread, but I heard "is all of us."

Two Most Important Things Said (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1648.topic)

Maybe wishful thinking on my part............

But that's what I heard.

I guess we will have to see what Spooky heard.

Neill

[factor]

I just found this board. I came up with the idea of virtual reality after episode 19. Nice to see that this idea has been well documented.

My take on the premonition in episode 19 that Locke was having was, that it was a Virtual Reality hiccup. He was seeing the past that he couldn't know (the drug plane crashing), the past he did know (the woman), a past he couldn't know (Boone's words), and the future he couldn't know (the blood on Boone's face).

Furthermore, the woman was appearing and disappearing in the jungle. And Boone was repeating like a video tape that had been looped.

Boone certainly is the one who is not participating with the program. He's on a quest. A VR program might throw him problems that have no bearing on anything just to delay him. Think of "The Trumman Show" where the main character goes outside the expected script, and all of the actors have to ad lib. The VR program had to ad lib, and for a while it wasn't doing a good job of deciding what images to put forth in order to stop him. The VR program also was trying to stop him by removing his ability to walk. Plus he realized he can put a fire hot poker into his leg without affecting his ability to walk aside from feeling no pain from it.

And why would the woman be in the jungle. She didn't belong there. But she was a character in the VR database. The same could be said of Jack's father on a much earlier episode. His character didn't belong alive and walking, but yet he was.

It could be possible that the drug plane has nothing to do with the island. If the VR program were trying to stop Locke from experimenting or searching, the plane could have been an invention to distract him.

Who is to say that the flashbacks are not part of the VR? Are they for the viewer's benefit, or are they for the character's benefit. Are they remembering them, or are we just getting to see them.

It's still interesting. So long as the writers don't do something stupid like show us the characters outside of virtual reality looking in. Keep us guessing.

[LostInWilderness]

lacenaire, I just re-watched Do No Harm. Jin sure knew a lot about birthing and being an expectant father. Kate was certainly competent at being a midwife.

ODammet, Jack didn't turn his dad in until he found out the woman who died was pregnant.

I've asked drabauer to open an old thread I found about the children to hold this discussion. It really doesn't belong here. I'm not trying to hijack this thread. No really, I'm not. Really ;)

On second viewing, Jack's adamant refusal to go help Claire because of his obsession with saving Boone, while practical, was in serious opposition to Locke's behavior when making a cradle for Claire, putting off his own obsession with the hatch. This was a sharp contrast. Which belongs in my hatch v the high ground thread, not here. ;)

[lacenaire]

Hi, factor , please let me welcome you

I like your suggestions about the woman appearing in the jungle and about Boone repeating itself. But I think the conclusions you arrive to are not exact because this anomalities happened during Locke's dream.

However, it is very interesting to think how the matrix would create dreams and memories in the people inside it. This has often puzzled me. Is the people inside a matrix capable of autonomous psychological processes? Can they associate ideas and create connections that are not provided by the matrix? That was Neo's power I think.

Good points Factor, you've given us a lot to think about.
-----------------------
Hi Lostinwilderness,

Yes, babies: A most relevant issue for our survivors. It also provides another reason to put one/various person in a matrix. To help them cope with the loss, and to allow them to move on.

Yes, obssession: Certainly, another trait of all of our survivors. Very interesting comments about it in the Obssession thread and in the Disconnected thread too.

Yes, High vs Low: I like a lot your thread. Lost is heading into a moral standpoint that will force our survivors to decide which side they are on; or to remain neutral at any cost. It won't be about good and evil (at least for us both sides will be represented as equally moral in their own stance) but the identity of each group will be built upon that, I think.
I think that's what will make the disconnection less powerful. A society needs an outside enemy to feel united against "the others" which might be even considered as non-humans, barbarians, infidels, etc...

I am yet not clear on how to interpret the separation of the survivors in two groups in view of the matrix as a therapy.
Other uses of the matrix a la Wargames (find a psychological profile so that the people inside the nuclear silos will not hesitate to press the button) seem at this point more likely if that division occurs. Also the original use of the matrix stated by Neill about Anti-social personality disorder.

I am willing to read what Neill feels and thinks about the latest events from a general point of view in connection to this theory.

[NeillT006]

Chance once told me that he would never accept a virtual reality therapy theory until he saw a picture of someone on a bed hooked up to a computer.

http://www.lost-tv.com/pictures/albums/caps 1x14 special/lost.s01e14.hdtv-lol2 277.jpg

Neill

[LostInWilderness]

Is that from Walt's comic? For real? And it's an alien!

[spooky]

I guess we will have to see what Spooky heard.

At first I thought Kate said "us," too, but after watching it a few times I had to go with "ours," mostly based on the movement of her mouth. It was a close call, IMO.

[drabauer]

Touché Neill! But who does the alien represent? ALL of them or one OTHER? :\

[LostInWilderness]

I wondered if they didn't intentionally have Kate say something ambiguous, but I don't think that makes any sense. She just didn't enunciate the 'r' very well, IMO.

[NeillT006]

Is that from Walt's comic? For real?

Yes. For real.

N.

[lacenaire]

Neil I give you a short summary of the comic book

-Alien X was captured in the 50's by 2 superheroes.
-Alien X was kept in a government lab and subjected to very agressive experimentation that caused him a terminal cancer.
-Alien X in the present time wants revenge.
-Alien X has huge mental powers: telepathy, telekynesis, you name it.
-Alien X abducts the 2 superheroes that captured him and takes them to the site where his spaceship was hidden: under the ice in the arctic sea.
-The 2 "next generation superheroes" try to save their predecessors and go to the arctic and in the way one of them meets a polar bear.
- Alien X Knowing his end is near sends a message to a deadly and hideous space race that start arriving to Earth through interstelar portals or something.
- To avoid total destruction de 4 superheroes go to the planet of the invaders.
- Space/Time travelling causes the travellers to have their consciences and memories (even physical abilities) mixed up.
- The alien mother fights the superheroes and when she starts losing she flees to another galaxy.
- When coming back to Earth, one of the old superheroes that was sick travels through the portal with one of his succesors and is miracly cured.
- The End

[thoughtform]

So do you think that TPTB threw that comic in as a red herring, misleading us into coming up with theories that appear to fit? It can't be so easy. There has to be a relevance. I know.... Maybe it's not an alien in the hatch, maybe it's STAN LEE!!! Just goofing.

[lacenaire]

I don't know about that thoughtform.
I just think that there are a couple of things from the comic that may explain what we've been discussing here all along.

The effects of a collective time/interstelar travel experience:

1. Mixed up memories between the participants
2. Miracle cures (by mixing dna, t-cells...)
3. Mixed up mental and physical abilities.
4. Memory loss

... In the science-fiction literature surely there are more effects from time travel that you can think about.

The funny thing is that you might remember like something happened to you when you know it didn't.
This contradiction within their own self-perception may be causing the strange behaviour that's been called "disconnect-superconnect".

-----------------------
This is a recent realization that might be important, I don't know, please tell me what you think:

Locke began to experience his paralysis again only after "Boone" (inside the his dream) implied that his dreams/visions might not be real. After Boone was injured in real life (proving his dream right) he could walk again. So it might be a way of conditioning Locke to believe his visions are meaningful and true.
The same conditioning might have been applied to Jack and Sawyer.

[thoughtform]

This contradiction within their own self-perception may be causing the strange behaviour that's been called "disconnect-superconnect". I like this, it makes me think of "changing reflections" in the La Mer translations. I have to think about that more for a while.

[NeillT006]

Neil I give you a short summary of the comic book

Lace:

I don't know that the actual story line of the comic is important at all --- only the images.

Walt couldn't read the Spanish text, but we got polar bears.

Neill

[NeillT006]

I just think that there are a couple of things from the comic that may explain what we've been discussing here all along.

How about a being in a high tech facility hooked up to a computer?

Neill

[lacenaire]

So if the superintelligent "being" is connected to a computer the humans in the story where do they fit? As a past memory that has to be reconstructed? Like the aliens in Spielberg's A.I.?

[LostInWilderness]

lace writes:Locke began to experience his paralysis again only after "Boone" (inside the his dream) implied that his dreams/visions might not be real. After Boone was injured in real life (proving his dream right) he could walk again. So it might be a way of conditioning Locke to believe his visions are meaningful and true.
But Locke had lost feeling in his legs before this vision. I think whatever took away Locke's powers started before the vision, and it got continually worse until Boone got in the plane. After that, Locke's powers returned quickly.

[NeillT006]

So if the superintelligent "being" is connected to a computer the humans in the story where do they fit? As a past memory that has to be reconstructed? Like the aliens in Spielberg's A.I.?

I am not thinking about the picture in such literal terms.

Looking at it in a very general way, we have a person (of sorts) hooked up (in some way) to a computer.

Now, of course, a valid first reaction is that the computer is a monitor. But, if the data flow is moving in the opposite direction ......

There has been lots of talk in other threads about some sort of mind control going on, with the black rock or the tower (has any part of the story ever really established the existence of a "tower"?) being the transmitting agency and magnetic anomalies being the artifact of its operation. Thinking about that, "mind control" is not too far removed from a "matrix" idea --- the superimposition of an alternate reality upon the subject. Maybe its possible that the island and various things upon it have a physical reality, but certain elements of the island experience are being "delivered" by the controlling mechanism. Sort of a blend of "real" and "virtual."

Neill

[lacenaire]

Hi Neill, remember you told us that you thought Locke's mother was really his sister? Maybe this argument will give you further motive to think so...

1. Jinny dies
2. a white dog comes and Locke's mother thinks it's her
3. After his mother dies the dog goes away, it gets lost.
4. Locke gets out of work and finds a LOST DOG sign in the windshield
5. Automatically he spots "her mother"

What do you think?

[LostInWilderness]

As they said in Lethal Weapon 42, "It's thin."

[drabauer]

Maybe its possible that the island and various things upon it have a physical reality, but certain elements of the island experience are being "delivered" by the controlling mechanism. Sort of a blend of "real" and "virtual."

You've come a long way, Neill. We are waiting for you in the "real" world. ;)

[jaystao]

Maybe its possible that the island and various things upon it have a physical reality, but certain elements of the island experience are being "delivered" by the controlling mechanism. Sort of a blend of "real" and "virtual."

Theres nothing wrong with giving several tangents to an idea and evolving on existing tangents. At the moment I'm very interested in finding examples between the dualism of order and chaos and I think what is becoming more apparent is the mental state of our castaways and how they 'perceive' the world in which they have been stranded. If the island were in some way virtually flexible (be it by way of inter-dimensional manifestation or by some computer simulation type scenario etc) then the castaways mental state could possibly direct what such phenomena might be created. Though I tend to beleive the phenomena (hatch, monster, black rock) already exist, its simply how people percieve the nature of such that in effect is the 'virtualness' of the island.

Locke might be searching for God and mayhap the answer he seeks or so he 'believes', is by way of the Hatch. Maybe he has in some sense influenced the hatches existence or he has influenced its perceptive 'reason' for existing and likewise to those who follow his vision.

Hitchcock never usually showed us the monster, usually it was just an empty space in darkness, but it was our perceptive fears of its possibility that gave rise to the illusion of a monster. Sawyers struggle with the boar similarly showed us how perceptive reality could influence over physical reality, he thought the boar was his father (?) and in that sense for him, until he saw reason, it was.

So maybe the dual nature of order and chaos is a slow decline from reason/physicality to insanity/delusion but what is the real world if it becomes a collective insanity, a shared delusion? How is a collective delusion possible? Well you only have to look at any cult phenomena or faith healing televangelist show to see a similar state of mass hysteria in action.

[thoughtform]

I see yout point Jays Tao. I am always reminded of La Mer's sea of changing reflection when I see dicussion on perception. Did you hear Michael asking Walt if he ever heard of perspective? Walt and Michael talking about drawing the comics and Michael says he could show Walt how to do it. He then says,"It's all about perspective, ever heard of it". He is referring to the Golden mean, or phi. Artists use it to give illusionary corporeality to their work. It is also a willful act in the choice of viewpoint. All of this means something in regard to the show. There are 23 different methods of perspective. Perspective is about deceiving the eyes, creating symmetry, proportion, congruence, harmonics, etc.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

There are 23 different methods of perspective
Oooh! That's interesting, (Yung would like this)

What does that mean? Are the 23 different methods, 23 approaches to drawing/painting perspective? Or is it 23 different points of view for the same focal point? Would like to know.

Makes me think of the flashbacks, and wondering if over time, they will show the same event from different POV's and the details or subjective experience will dramatically alter the truth, or the facts. Sort of like Jin & Sun in the bathroom.

[thoughtform]

SHBL, I think that it is referring to all areas of "art". Painting, architechture, literature etc. I'm hoping that someone who is educated in this will post some info. I had never heard of it before and only looked into it after hearing Michael ask Walt if he had heard of it. I'm also still researching into it. It also mentions camera obscura and anamorphosis, I am in the process of looking into those. All of it has to do with functional rendering in creating "art"

[NeillT006]

You've come a long way, Neill. We are waiting for you in the "real" world.

Well, if you consider remote mind control superimposing a virtual reality over a physical reality the "real" world ..........

N.

[drabauer]

Well, if you consider remote mind control superimposing a virtual reality over a physical reality the "real" world ..........

Hence the scare quote. :evil

[lacenaire]

The thread is going towards the direction of an external force driving the things that happen in a real island scenario. I totally agree.

I can only start to think who/what is controlling everything.

I see all around "evidences" of "aliens" as they have appeared in science-fiction movies. Now this doesn't necessarily make all the relationships between the characters we've been discussing pointless, rather the opposite.


-----------------------
Edited. I still believe in the matrix theory but as Neill said it could be an extended Matrix that includes the physical world.
At this point I would like to see who do you think is behind all, who is the puppeteer, if you think there is one. I see clues that might indicate alien presence. What do you think about it?

People might be connected thru a wireless connection directly into the matrix, with them and the matrix interacting as if there was no one else on the island (disconnection).

Sometimes, a few of the characters could be hooked up together in the same hub (superconnection) and there would be a synchrony between them. In my opinion this has happened to Locke (at least with Jack, Sawyer and Boone).

-----------------------
Quote from The matrix: You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
This is related to another thread called: "Watership Down" clues

[NeillT006]

This aliens are not "anal probers"

Well, that will probably disappoint the basement dwellers.

Neill

[JacksGirlfriend]

Neill - shame on you making fun of us that way. Did you think we never came up to see what was going on around here?

I see you finally found your comic image (no thanks to Pin). You know - just because we've been told the show can't be based on a type of multiple personality disorder does not mean these individuals haven't at one point in their lives been strapped down and analyzed to death. I still think they all have some kind of sociopathic problem - probably in varying degrees and triggered by different types of emotional problems. It could, however, be the thing that binds them together.

[lacenaire]

Hi Neill, I posted this in the thread about the hatch but it's also related to this...

Terry O'Queen: Created by the military, Harsh Realm explores a virtual reality world where anything is possible. After seeing the horrors of war in Sarajevo, Lt. Thomas Hobbes is finally ready to settle down with his fiance but the military has one last assignment for him. He must test out the newest in military combat training, a top secret computer simulation code-named "Harsh Realm". However once inside the game, Hobbes immediately finds himself fighting for his life, and struggling to comprehend what is real and what is not. In that show he was General Mosa.

What do you think?

[NeillT006]

explores a virtual reality world where anything is possible.

Lace:

The inexplicable survival of so many in the crash of a passenger airliner is at least one element of the story line not handled well (if at all) by many otherwise pretty good theories. The virtual reality setting handles it fairly well, and keeps bringing me back to it.

Neill

[lacenaire]

I totally agree with you about the crash. I think there was no crash. They haven't showed it to us, and what we know about how some characters appeared after the crash doesn't make sense.
-----------------------

Harsh Realm was shot 2 years before the Matrix.
I found a few connections between Lost and Harsh Realm:

- Philosophers: In Harsh Realm it was Hobbes that inspired the main character.

- The eye: In Harsh Realm main title it is expressed that you enter into a virtual reality by zooming into the eye of one of the characters.

- The duality: In Harsh Real it was positive-negative. Two mirror realities with different rules but connected in a deep sense.

- Military background

- Characters that act strangely or seem to be under direct control from outside the harsh realm. One of the main characters name is "Pinocchio", like the puppet he got freed from his controller (General Santiago) but had to face doom for having done it.

- There is a distinction between "real characters" and "VC" (virtual constructs). Real characters exist in both worlds, and if they die in the Realm they die outside too.

- Dreams, visions and oracles connect the 2 realities.

- Disconnection: Real characters enter the harsh realm with a mission but they disconnect from it as it is impossible to fulfill it. They further disconnect by not establishing a civilization and living instead in a "mad max world" where there's no law and order.

- The realm has a tendency to chaos and law can only be imposed by absolute military control. This divides the realm into the "adjusted" living in Santiago City and the "rejects" living in the wild.
-----------------------
It is available on DVD by the way ;)

[drabauer]

Thanks lacenaire for that rundown. Harsh Realm was yet another Fox show that didn't get a fair hearing. The few I saw had a lot of problems, but it was a very promising concept, and would have usurped some of the Matrix thunder if it had played out the full season. If I recall DB Sweeney played Hobbes and our own Terry O'Quinn was General Santiago.

[lacenaire]

Hey Neill I found something related to the "shifting reflections" imagery that you like.
Why did the director make a point freezing Kate's reflection?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/966355/katereflection1.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/966355/katereflection2.jpg