+ another plus for the Bermuda Triangle theory

[maxpublic]

Generally when something bugs me either I work on it until I solve it or set it aside until I get hit out of the blue with an "aha!" moment. The plane crash didn't make any sense at all, until I realized that the fuselage had spun around to face away from the direction of travel; after that, everything fell into place concerning the position of the pieces of the plane.

However, we'll still left with the fact that the plane was ripped into three pieces. We know that the nose must've dropped off the plane just prior to the fuselage hitting the beach, and if the fuselage were spinning like a frisbee it would remain relatively level and stable until it hit the ground - which, I found it, is remotely possible if the engines on one side of the plane are putting out considerably more thrust than the other side, AND the plane isn't stabilized (which it wasn't, with the tail gone), AND if the center of gravity was close to the area between the wings (which it would've been, once the nose ripped off), AND if the flaps and ailerons are level and don't decide to move up or down on their own due to damage. Okay, we're just going to have to accept all of this, otherwise the show would've ended about two minutes into the pilot, after the camera panned over all the dead bodies and we saw that there were no survivors. Not bloody likely, but it IS possible.

The primary problem we're left with is that we're told the plane was at 40,000 feet when it hit turbulence. (Note: by the way, that isn't unusual for long-haul intercontinental flights, which often cruise at up to 42,000 feet. Yes, I've been wasting time doing research on the flying characteristics of planes and on plane crashes. Mr. Rogers wants to know if you can say "obsession"?). The plane had been dropping pretty quickly but the pilot was undoubtedly fighting the drop and trying to take control of the plane; the tail, I estimate, couldn't have been less than 30,000 feet above the ground when it ripped off the plane, assuming the pilot was entirely unsuccessful - which really isn't possible. There's no such thing as 12,000 feet of straight wind sheer; you pass through a couple of atmospheric layers and conditions change between those two layers.

Okay, so let's assume (for the moment) the tail was at least 30,000 feet above the ground when it ripped off the plane. But the nose couldn't have been more than a few hundred feet off the ground when it fell; enough to kill everyone in the nose but still allow the pilot a plausible chance at survival (it's happened before). Now, how in the heck does the plane manage to drop nearly 30,000 feet missing it's tail section without the pilot losing complete control and either diving or going into a spin? For those of you who don't know, the tail is a rather important piece of equipment for keeping the plane stable. It helps if the fuselage doesn't have a gaping hole in the back, too.

Knowing that it's flat-out impossible for the plane to remain in controlled flight for 30,000 feet with this sort of damage, and that the nose came off only a few hundred feet above the ground, Occam's Razor tells us that the plane didn't drop a full 30,000 feet before the nose and fuselage separated. It couldn't really have remained in controlled flight for very long with the tail gone, perhaps a couple of minutes at most before the pilot was unable to correct for instability (a very *good* pilot, I might add, with a mountain of luck). And unless the plane was in free-fall "a few minutes" isn't enough time to cover 30,000 feet. We know that the plane wasn't in free fall because if it was the fuselage would be an accordioned piece of metal sitting in a crater on the beach, and our castaways would be human jelly.

We also know from Kate's description that the nose came off not long after the tail came off. If that's the case then the plane must've been pretty close to the ground before it started breaking apart. Yet we all saw the tail separate only a couple of minutes after the turbulence hit and the shrieking metal sounds started echoing throughout the fuselage. Not nearly enough time to go from 40,000 feet to a few thousand feet when the tail falls off, to a few hundred feet when the nose followed it. So this is what we're left with:

- the plane was at 40,000 feet when the 'turbulence' hit.
- the plane couldn't have been more than a few thousand feet above ground when it lost the tail.
- the plane couldn't have been more than a few hundred feet above ground when the nose came off.
- there is no way on god's green earth the plane could've lost 40,000 feet of altitude in the time frame we're dealing with.

The only way to resolve this is to assume that the plane managed to change altitude from 40,000 feet to a few thousand feet *without traversing the distance between the two altitudes*.

Back to the Bermuda Triangle theory: if we assume that the plane went through a 'rip' between our Earth and an alternate Earth, the entry point could've been at 40,000 feet on our Earth, while *the exit point was only a few thousand feet above the island on the alternate Earth*. And that, my fellow fanatics, is how a plane goes from 40,000 feet to a few thousand feet without traveling the distance between those two points, and that is how a plane loses both its tail and nose without killing everyone on board with a fatal 8-mile fall.

Max

[Baron X]

You had some free time on your hands, didn't you?

Well I for one applaud your hard work, well thought out and presented.

Thumbs up!

[JacksGirlfriend]

Max: I can't imagine how you did all that research without falling asleep... But I guess that's what makes you, you and me, me. I'm back to one of my original questions. You have a pilot's license, don't you...

It's brilliant of course and totally explains the plane. I also happen to love it. But now we have another question: What about the ships? I think we have to assume there are ships (you think the polar bear came from one, right?). Also, if we decide to go on a possibility of mammoths or other extinct creatures, there have to be rips on the island itself (or very near to shore). That means other entrance and exit points have to exist as well. Care to do a little more research. I'm feeling waaaay too sleepy just thinking about it.

JacksGirl

[Professor Liam]

:lol You are really consumed with this aren't you?

[JacksGirlfriend]

You couldn't possibly be talking about me! If you're talking about the number of posts I have, ignore that. I'm just trying to win the new car.

I'll assume you mean Max because he is the uber-researcher. And a damn fine job he does. Between Max and Pinnerman (still lost and unaccounted for), we'll have all the answers before the writers do.

JacksGirl

[Professor Liam]

Yeah Max. :lol And good luck on winning the car. :b

[railwaymadness]

What would be a reasonable timeframe to drop 40,000 feet?

[feenie1010]

For some reason, this theory makes sense to me.

[MEGA S michael surtour]

looool misss jack you are "trop forte!!!"

[JacksGirlfriend]

Michael (should we call you Michael?): "trop forte"... I hope that's a good thing.

JacksGirl

[MEGA S michael surtour]

yeah michael, "trop forte" (for a girl) "trop fort" (fort a man)
mean many things, like "too funny" or "you rock"...
... so yeah it's a good thing!:p

[JacksGirlfriend]

Thanks, Michael. You rock, too!

JacksGirl

[MEGA S michael surtour]

cool!
if i say you're amazing will you say i'm amazing too???:rollin

[JacksGirlfriend]

Absolutement! (my way of being French)

JacksGirl

[MEGA S michael surtour]

ok, so you're amaaaaaaaaazing!!!

(hey michael, no more "nimportnawak")

[JacksGirlfriend]

We have to stop before Max yells at us.

Sorry, Max.

JacksGirl

[djshiva]

just wanted to mention that when the tail comes off the plane you can CLEARLY see the clouds BELOW the plane, which is a problem my friends and i were trying to reconcile. so the fact is that the plane broke apart BEFORE the massive altitude drop.

this still lends some credence to max's theory, since the crash would have been a big crater with no survivors after dropping from 40,000 feet.

i am still leaning towards some strange electromagnetic weirdness/time-space rippy typa dealie...

[maxpublic]

You could just as easily postulate this:

a) tail rips off of plane around 30,000 feet, while they're passing through the anomaly.
b) transition through anomaly complete and they're now at 3,000 feet.
c) plane continues to descend to a few hundred feet, nose is torn off.
d) plane crashes on beach.

Either way works. And it has the advantage of allowing the tail to pass through the anomaly on its own and still end up on the island (although *no one* will be alive in that section).

Max

[Klang007]

The idea of a rift in time/space seems out of place for what the show is seeming to trying to pull off. I see a character driven drama on the island, i.e. Lord of the Flies (without the fear manifestation brought up) where people's conflict is the center piece, rather then a sci-fi-centric 'how'd that happen' mystery. Could be wrong.

However, to add to this thread, I noticed something quite...alarming. Seems the writers/directors either purposely or through lack of infinite care put forth some either interesting or 'oh-geez-how'd-they-miss-that?!' discrepencies. The three flashbacks (Jack, Charlie, and Kate) all had different time spent between the first moment the plane hit turbulance and the moment they first feel the plane dropping (with people hitting the celing and all). On Jacks flashback, 44 seconds from first turbulence to plane drop. On Charlie's flashback, it takes 1 minute and 12 seconds for that same timeframe. On Kate, it is cut to a dramatic 24 seconds.

Also, someone mentioned seeing clouds out of the tail. I've re-watched kate's flashback and at first you do see the clouds, but the last shot out of the tail, you see the horizon even out. Seems like they were traveling rather straight. I mean, if the plane was dropping, I'd expect to see the sky, or maybe a very turbulent twist and turns. But nope. Horizons all the way to the end of the flashback. And if you looked outside from her window before the tail falls off, the horizon is steady. So either the CG crew didn't think about the scene they were working on, or perhaps it's done on purpose. The former means whatever we see onscreen might just be a careless blunder on the part of the filmaker rather then yet another conspiracy theory.

[bigmouth]

This is not my preferred theory, but it is certainly very plausible--especially since the tail seems simply to have disappeared. Also, I've heard the bermuda triangle is a hot premise among studios these days. I would not be shocked if it's some combination of that and king kong.

[maxpublic]

The show can't have much of anything to do with "Lord of the Flies". It wouldn't last more than a season if it played out with roughly the same pessimism - most of the audience would bail for happier entertainment.

In fact, I'm not even sure why people keep mentioning the book. The only similarity between "Lost" and "Lord of the Flies" is that both groups of characters are stranded on an island. By this reasoning we could postulate that "Lost" is equally well connected to "Gilligan's Island". Putting aside the "stranded" part, there is NOTHING in the first three episodes of "Lost" that is even remotely akin to "Lord of the Flies".

As for the flashback differences, this is because the flashback is from the perspective of the character in question. Each person remembers the crash differently, and that means we'll get discrepancies like variable times between the start of turbulence and the tail ripping off. Memory, especially under stress, tends to be rather faulty. It's why eyewitnesses to a crime are so notoriously unreliable.

Finally, re the plane crash: they clearly aren't diving. It's one of the things that makes a semi-controlled descent from 40,000 feet within the given time frame so unbelievable, especially with the tail gone. The plane appears to be level throughout the scenes we've seen, losing altitude for unknown reasons. You'd think perhaps wind sheer, but wind sheer doesn't cross atmospheric layers. It's almost like the craft is being pushed towards the ground, or perhaps pulled towards the ground.

Max

[bigmouth]

Max, there are many more similarities than that:

First, they are marooned by a plane crash. That right there points to Lord of the Flies, not Gilligan's Island.

Second, the surviving symbol of civilization is named Jack. In the book, a boy named Jack becomes a symbol for the reverse (i.e., civilization's collapse). That strikes me as an obvious ironic nod right there.

Third, the anithesis of civilization here is a blond named Sawyer. (Note how he chastises Jack with the accusation: "You're still living in civilization.") In the book, it's a little blond boy who represents civilization. Again, an ironic nod if I ever saw one.

Fourth, there is a Piggy (i.e., Hurley) as well as wild boars (reportedly).

Fifth, there is the obvious emphasis on fear that runs throughout the show. Remember Jack's story about the spinal surgery? Or Kate's counting to five when the monster's around? Or the black lady's evident fear of flying. Even if you don't accept the island is manifesting, it's clear that fear of the unknown is a powerful theme. Much as it is in Lord of the Flies.

Look, I'm not suggesting Lost is a remake, but I do think the book is the source of many insights for this show. Aside from the themes already mentioned, I predict the castaways will each begin gravitating towards Jack or Sawyer, creating an eventual schism.

[maxpublic]

First, they are marooned by a plane crash. That right there points to Lord of the Flies, not Gilligan's Island.

I think you're quibbling over details here. It's a bit harder to start a show like "Lost" from an ocean liner than from a plane crash. A plane allows for a rapid departure from the plotted course, doesn't have several thousand passengers you have to kill, isn't nearly as expensive to build in terms of wreckage ($10 million just for the pilot, remember), doesn't have thousands of tons of cargo washing up on shore (or hundreds of bodies), etc. The plane crash was a practical consideration for setting up the story, and still allows for a large number of survivors.

Second, the surviving symbol of civilization is named Jack.

I know there are some folks here who make a big deal about the names. But that's easily countered. In "Lord of the Flies" there is no Sawyer, no Hurley, No Jin or Sun, no Claire, no Kate, etc. The names are incidental, I think. I don't put much stock in any other explanation.

Third, the anithesis of civilization here is a blond named Sawyer. In the book, a blond boy represents civilization.

Now you're talking about a link between the book and the movie based on *hair color*. You're reaching here.

Fourth, there is a Piggy (i.e., Hurley) as well as wild boars (reportedly).

The only connection between Piggy and Hurley is that they're both overweight, which is rather common in the First World. And we have no evidence whatsoever of any wild boars being on the island.

Fifth, there is the obvious emphasis on fear that runs throughout the show.

The producers themselves said that would be the case. But that isn't something unique to "Lost" or "Lord of the Flies".

If you want to talk about nebulous connections between "Lord of the Flies" and "Lost", we could just as easily point out all of the differences between the book and the show which discount these connections. Here are a few:

- the plane in "Lord of the Flies" was shot down by enemy forces during a war. There is no war in "Lost".

- there were no adults in "Lord of the Flies", nor any females.

- all of the boys in "Lord of the Flies" were caucasian and of the same culture.

- all of the boys apparently came from the same highly-regimented school. The survivors in "Lost" have no connection to one another apart from the fact that they were unlucky enough to get on the plane.

- in "Lord of the Flies" the monster was a figment of the boys imagination. In "Lost" our monster chewed off the face of the pilot.

- there were no other castaways in "Lord of the Flies". In "Lost" we have evidence of at least one other set of castaways (French), and possibly another set (source of the escaped polar bear).

- the tone of "Lost" is remarkably more upbeat than "Lord of the Flies", despite all the nasty things happening to our castaways. Not a single character presented to us has, as yet, shown themselves to be ready to sink into a demonic abyss of savagery. Which was pretty much the point of "Lord of the Flies", hence the title.

And so on.

Max

[bigmouth]

Sorry, max, but it seems to me you're the one who's reaching to reject an opinion with which you disagree. I also find it ironic that you would accuse anyone of quibbling over details given your own obsessive analysis of the trajectory of the plane crash. I think we'll have to agree to disagree since you seem determined to reject my point of view (odd since I went out my way to avoid doing the same to you). But here, for the record, are my responses:

First, the most famous castaway show in history begins with a boat ride. And if you're correct that this is a wormhole/bermuda triangle type scenario, then it shouldn't matter how quickly they got off course. Plus, let's get real, a plane crash is not a plausible way to generate a "large number" of survivors. In fact, this is a common complaint against the show.

Second, you reject the overlap of themes, names, hair color, and Hurley's pigginess as "coincidences." Maybe in isolation I'd agree. But at some point, the coincidences have to add up to something more. Let me ask you this, do you really think it's a coincidence that Sawyer confronts Jack by saying "you're still living in civilzation?" That those two just happen to be the two most charismatic survivors? That they are constantly in conflict with one another?

Finally, show me where the producers have said fear is irrelevant to the show. I tried politely before to get you to direct me to a link, but you could not. This grows tiresome as I can't argue with your assertions. Please either point to something concrete or stop making this claim. Also, let's be clear that my point here is not necessarily that the island is manifesting their fears--just that fear of the unknown is a central theme to both Lost and the Lord of the Flies.

To argue otherwise is to ignore several conversations in the pilot as totally irrelevant. But keep pondering the trajectory of the plane crash (which isn't mentioned once in the pilot). I'm sure that will turn out to be central to the mystery.

PS: More upbeat?! They just had to put a man out of his misery by shooting and strangling him (which, I might add, was the source of the aforementioned quote by Sawyer). Please give some examples of this optimism you mention.

[maxpublic]

Second, you reject the overlap of themes, names, hair color, and Hurley's pigginess as "coincidences." Maybe in isolation I'd agree. But at some point, the coincidences have to add up to something more.

Hmm, "coincidences". Here's a few for you:

- The crew of "The Minnow" end up on a deserted island, bereft of civilization. The same thing happens to the boys from "Lord of the Flies".

- On "Gilligan's Island" the skipper is overweight. So is Piggy from "Lord of the Flies"

- Gilligan's Island *definitely* has wild boars. It figures into an entire episode. So does "Lord of the Flies".

- One of the primary themes of Gilligan's island is an absurd manifestion of the survivors fears. Heck, at one time Thurston Howell III thinks his fellow castaways are going to kill him and eat him in an act of cannibalism! This same theme can be found in "Lord of the Flies"

Oh my freakin' god! "Gilligan's Island" has a deep connection to "Lord of the Flies"!

Funny thing is, Lindelof (one of the producers) never publicly makes the connection between "Lost" and "Lord of the Flies". In fact, he fears that people will be tempted to link "Lost" and "Gilligan's Island" (talk about irony):

"How can we make it not 'Gilligan's Island'?" asked Lindelof, co-creator and executive producer of the show.

"We needed a huge cast," Lindelof said. "It's like a petri dish. You need as many protozoa as you can to begin with. You just can't have people come in and out like 'Gilligan's Island.'"

Finally, show me where the producers have said fear is irrelevant to the show.

I can't because I never said that. What I did say is that the producers have nixed several ideas outright, one of those being that the fears of the survivors are being magically created on the island, a la "Forbidden Planet". Although it appears that a number of paper-and-ink articles have yet to be translated into our favorite electronic medium, here's a direct quote from Lindelof:

Acknowledging the bizarre elements, Lindelof was quick to point out: "This show isn't 'The X-Files.' Everything that happens to these characters is grounded to reality as we know it. Time and space are not bent."

Which, you'll note, pretty much trashes the speculation about 'fears coming to life' (e.g., Walt's comic polar bear and the real polar bear). It also seems to put the nix on my own Bermuda Triangle theory.

Further evidence the monster is real and not a magical manifestation of the survivors fears:

"What we are trying to do is make sure everything has a very Scully explanation," Fury said, referring to the X-Files character. "This is not a show about the supernatural, despite the fact that we have a very huge creature that likes to eat people. Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters."

I tried politely before to get you to direct me to a link, but you could not. This grows tiresome as I can't argue with your assertions.

This might be because the sum total of all human knowledge has yet to be converted to electrons, which I do believe I pointed out. However, in reference to my "there will be no magic" statement, I have provided you with quotes listed above.

Please either point to something concrete or stop making this claim.

If you think I said that FEAR won't play a big part in the show, you're dead wrong. One hundred percent wrong. Completely, totally, not-even-in-the-ballpark off-base. Feel free to find the post where I said this and quote it back to me.

What I did say is that there will be no other-worldly, supernatural boojum. This can't be disputed because the producers themselves have said there won't be any other-worldly supernatural boojum. This is not "Forbidden Planet" remade for the 21st century.

Also, let's be clear that my point here is not necessarily that the island is manifesting their fears--just that fear of the unknown is a central theme to both Lost and the Lord of the Flies.

Then you're arguing with yourself, because I never took the opposite tack.

But keep pondering the trajectory of the plane crash (which isn't mentioned once in the pilot). I'm sure that will turn out to be central to the mystery.

I don't think there's any connection whatsoever between "Lord of the Flies" and "Lost". You do. That doesn't mean that you need to get petty over it. Chill out, it's just a TV show.

Max

[JacksGirlfriend]

Acknowledging the bizarre elements, Lindelof was quick to point out: "This show isn't 'The X-Files.' Everything that happens to these characters is grounded to reality as we know it. Time and space are not bent."

Do you think time and space have to be "bent" in order to have a Bermuda Triangle theory? It seems to me that space can open and time can stop momentarily.

JacksGirl

[Klang007]

It's still early to tell in what direction this show will take. The first season might just give us but a glimps, with the complex character developement (from seeing the preview screen caps, there seems to be more flashbacks in future episodes). However, the reason why I feel this show might turn into a lord of the flies type of deal is the focus on character the show is putting its emphasis on. Also...

-both stranded on an unknown island
-both have the survivors starting out in an optimistic, helpful slant
-both have people trying to set up order and try their best to live lives as they were used to back in civilization
-both have people fearing somthing in the jungle, of an unseen monster
-both (too early for Lost, but this is what I feel it would become) a study on character interaction (read somewhere that all of the writers have at least a minor on sociology) and the eventual downfall of society in the wild.

character driven, mystery laden, action packed...whichever way the show goes towards, I'll be there watching it.

[maxpublic]

Do you think time and space have to be "bent" in order to have a Bermuda Triangle theory? It seems to me that space can open and time can stop momentarily.

Well, I'm a science sort of guy. It's more likely that aliens are crossing the gulf between the stars to dissect our cows and give farmers anal probes than it is that ships and planes are magically transiting between this Earth and an alternate one.

Quantum mechanics tells us that it's possible that there are alternate universes, a whole passle of them (though not an infinite number). Quantum mechanics also tells us that those universes can never interact with one another, so whether or not they exist is pretty irrelevent (we'll never know one way or another).

In the real world, no one is jumping between alternate Earths, not even via Star Trek-like spatial anomalies. I'd be willing to suspend disbelief for this one thing in order to get the show we have, but as the producers have said "time and space are not bent".

Max

[JacksGirlfriend]

What's their definition of "bent"? They didn't come right out and say what it means.

Come on, you know none of this can happen in fiction if there isn't an alternate dimension or a Bermuda triangle. It just isn't possible.

Open your mind and let in what you know about fiction. Anything is possible because the reality created by the writer becomes the reality of the piece.

Everything so far is "grounded" in reality. What they say, what they do, what they see, what they feel - it's all real. Everything that happens to them will be real. But... over and above and around it all is the writer and he needs a foundation. If he wants it all, he has to be creative and he has been, but he hasn't invented anything new. He's using an idea that's probably been around for thousands of years, been studied and still not disproved. Therefore it's real too. It's pseudo-science.

They would not have survived the plane crash. Time stopped. Space opened. And they survived and landed somewhere we've all heard about but never seen.

I think your plane crash theory is right. From what I've seen and read, it's the only possible explanation. Right through a rip.

JacksGirl

[maxpublic]

It could be that Lindelof and I have different ideas on what it means to "bend" time and space. Transiting between alternate Earths is a wild ride into science fantasy, so that seems to qualify as "bending". Perhaps Lindelof thinks of this differently.

He's using an idea that's probably been around for thousands of years, been studied and still not disproved.

Remember the basic rules of logic: it isn't necessary for a theory to be disproved to be dismissed, but proved. It's always incumbent upon the person making the statement to prove the statement, not for his detractors to disprove it.

An example: how can I disprove that aliens are visiting the planet, masquerading as humans, and visiting McDonald's late at night in order to feast on our wonderful Big Macs, which are known galaxy-wide as some of the finest food in existence? Well, I can't. But if someone decides to claim this is happening, we can confidently ignore them until they provide proof that this is indeed happening. As no one has managed to prove that aliens are visiting the planet, much less doing so in order to chow down on Big Macs, I can dismiss the idea without further thought.

Now, what do we have that points to a Bermuda Triangle-like basis for "Lost"?

- a plane that fails to transit the distance between 40,000 feet of altitude and a few thousand feet of altitude before ripping apart.

- a strong radio signal that's been transmitting for sixteen years without anyone detecting it - flat-out impossible in 2004.

- a huge uninhabited island which doesn't actually exist in our French Polynesia.

- seemingly monstrous creature(s) wandering about the jungle.

- a badly out-of-place polar bear, pointing to a previous shipwreck.

- evidence of another expedition via the distress call.

It seems the likely explanation is that the island isn't on Earth, in which case we're left with swallowing just one impossible thing before breakfast: transiting between alternate universes. So the Bermuda Triangle theory seems to fit for our basic preconceptions.

But we're still left with the statement that 'time and space aren't bent', and that's a shotgun blast to the idea - unless Lindelof is of the opinion that the Bermuda Triangle theory is a plausibly pseudo-scientific one. Kinda boggles the mind, really, but in a world where people accept astrology as being just as rational as astronomy, perhaps that is indeed the case.

Max

[bigmouth]

Max, I owe you an apology on one point. I misread your reply as asserting that the producers have said fear would be irrelevant. Sorry about that.

Still, I do think you're being rather rude and unfair in dismissing my Lord of Flies analogy. I have never said this was an identical remake, just that there are many interesting overlaps and apparent ironic nods in Lost to Lord of the Flies. This remains so regardless of whether my theory about the island is true.

Your frankly pathetic attempts to mock me by manufacturing absurd parallels with Gilligan's island are totally unproductive. Fear is the central theme in Lord of the Flies. It is also a central theme in Lost. In light of that significant parallel, the multiple "coincidences" as you term them take on added significance to me. All the moreso since reports are that the survivors will split into factions, much as they did in Lord of Flies. I don't think this is a ridiculous position even if you apparently do.

That, incidentally, is why I'm so annoyed. It's not about my obsession with the show (which admittedly runs deeep.) It's about your inability to answer respectfully--something I went out of my way to do in my first messge to this thread. Look back at what I wrote--I disagreed but admitted you made some compelling points. In fact, I didn't even mention Lord of the Flies. Yet your reply immediately attacked that anlogy as groundless and inane.

I took that as a bit of a personal attack since we've argued about it on other boards. But even then I tried to keep it civil. It wasn't until you attacked me again in rather rude and dismissive terms that my gloves finally came off.

PS: The bermuda triangle too is not explicable by science as we know it.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Max: Here lies the basic difference between us. We're not on opposite sides: We just look at things differently.

If someone told me aliens were eating Big Macs I would say "Really? Why do you think that?" I would then listen, curiously interested as to why they thought it was true. I wouldn't necessarily believe it but I wouldn't dismiss it. Because I think things that cannot be disproved are things that are possible. I may not believe in them personally, but they are still possible because I don't know everything.

You're in the sciences. I'm in the arts. Although the two cross over from time to time, there are basic differences between us (I think this board is a clear example). The writers of this show want to please both types. So they've given us reality and they've given us science. But they've also given us possibility. We have the freedom to explore, to think, to open our minds to another world and see the potentially impossible things that fill it. That's why this show is so much fun. It allows us to cross over into each other's territory.

This theory still works. Everyone has a different idea of what "bend" means.

JacksGirl

[Abraxas]

People are starting to take this way too serious. The next one going to tell me there can be no imaginary dogs and bleached bears is facing a serious verbal thrashing from me...suckers! :D

I know this is getting old.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Then we'll just find something else to goof with... it won't take us long.

JacksGirl

[Abraxas]

I still hope Pinnerman will be back and got rid off the surplus mind waves which totally mess with us and we turn into normal fact-forwarding people from the bunch of hallucinating hobby humorists we became.
And maybe the urge to produce alliterations will stop, too.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Did you read my theory on Pinnerman?

JacksGirl

[Sleeestack]

Deathmatch:

MaxPub vs. Awsecond

Max's weapon of choice: Abacus with pink and tope beads.

Awsecond's weapon of choice: 1982 Thesaurus missing pages 33-65.

Max's Warrior outfit: Lavender spandex body suit, with torn t-shirt of ABBA-Gold 1979 Concert in New Brunswick.

Awseconds Warrior outfit: Hall and Oates Tang Top, Daisy Duke cut off shorts, and Malaysian combat books with mauve fishnet stockings pulled to his/her upper thighs.

Jack'sgirl will be ring girl and DJ for the event which will be held in Pinnerman's basement since he is not home. She will be spinning Air Supply and Peter Cetera hits, while donned in classic Goth Vampiress Regalia.

I will bring the beer, most likely a Belgian Ale and Heineken Keg cans.

Abraxas can bring the food; namely, Soy Doritos.

Roger and out. I have to print the tickets at Kinkos.

PM for a discount, and a DVD of last week's show will get you a free brewski and massage!:D

p.s. Special guest appearance by James Bond and Mulder and Skully. We are still trying to sign Frank Black but his agent is a total prick.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I love dressing Goth! Can I play some Def Lepard? I love them.

P.S. I think you meant "tank" top, unless the top is going to be orange then it would indeed be "tang".

And I'm a whiskey drinker, so you'll have to bring some of that with the beer.

Can I bring Michael Pare?

JacksGirl

[bigmouth]

Who told you, Sleestack?! And to think I thought this forum was someplace the past would stay the past...

[JacksGirlfriend]

No secrets here...

JacksGirl

[maxpublic]

I guess I'll comment on this particular exchange one more time, then I'm going to call this horse 'dead' and go beat on something else.

Still, I do think you're being rather rude and unfair in dismissing my Lord of Flies analogy.

I do dismiss the theory because I don't see the connections you've made as being relevent. That's a difference of opinion. That does not mean that I'm dismissing *you*. Big difference between those two things. Huge difference.

It's about your inability to answer respectfully

I don't know what you mean by "respectfully", but I haven't been disrespectful. If I had been, you and everyone else on this forum would know it. There'd be absolutely no doubt of the fact even by the most forgiving of us.

Guess we just have different standards here.

Yet your reply immediately attacked that anlogy as groundless and inane

Groundless, yes; inane, no. I'd challenge to point out where I called your musings "inane". I haven't.

I took that as a bit of a personal attack since we've argued about it on other boards.

Other boards? Forgive me, but I have no idea who you are. This forum is one of the very, very few I've been on over the years where I've actually started to keep track of who's who. On most forums I can argue with someone one week, agree with them the next, and never know the two conversations were with the same person. On most forums I just don't care.

This one is different. Dunno why, but it is. Some of the handles are starting to 'stick' with me. So I don't recognize you from another forum - or anyone else here, now that I think about it.

Your frankly pathetic attempts to mock me by manufacturing absurd parallels with Gilligan's island are totally unproductive.

Ah, 'pathetic'. That put a grin on my face!

The "Gilligan's Island" example was *supposed* to be absurd. I made relevent connections between the show and the book which closely paralleled your own observations between the book and "Lost". I was trying to show you that you could draw lines between A and B that might prove personally interesting without being at all convincing to your audience.

What it boils down to in the end is this:

- you see a connection between "Lost" and "Lord of the Flies"
- I do not
- neither of us is working off of anything more than opinion, since the 'facts' at hand are so very open to any interpretation we care to place on them
- given all this, a heated exchange is just plain silly. So stick a fork in me, I'm done.

Max

[TheBigCat]

That having been stated, I'm going to backtrack a bit and say that I would not be surprised to see some conflict (in a literary sense) between Jack and the Cave People and Sawyer and the Beach People. Just don't expect to see Hurley getting roasted on a spit.

[TheBigCat]

I recall reading about 15 years ago or so about a Pacific Ocean parallel of the BT called the Dragons Triangle. Would make for interesting T.V., but I am still holding out for purely emperical science explanations with maybe a touch of voodoo genetic engineering. My main reasons for this is that there was a T.V show in the late 70s about a group of people shipwrecked on an island in the BT which had an unknown number of "time zones" where pirates from Tudor England or scientists from the 22nd century or ancient Romans lived. Don't remember the title or any cast members except Roddy McDowell. I do remember that it got cancelled in the middle of it's first season. Do you want that fate for Lost?

[JacksGirlfriend]

Do you want that fate for Lost?

Of course not. But I still want the Tudor pirates and definitely Vikings. They can do melt time into one place and still have it fall into pseudo-science. They just have to do it the right way.

JacksGirl

[LostHorizon]

The Big Cat Wrote:

I recall reading about 15 years ago or so about a Pacific Ocean parallel of the BT called the Dragons Triangle. Would make for interesting T.V., but I am still holding out for purely emperical science explanations with maybe a touch of voodoo genetic engineering. My main reasons for this is that there was a T.V show in the late 70s about a group of people shipwrecked on an island in the BT which had an unknown number of "time zones" where pirates from Tudor England or scientists from the 22nd century or ancient Romans lived. Don't remember the title or any cast members except Roddy McDowell. I do remember that it got cancelled in the middle of it's first season. Do you want that fate for Lost?


Ah! I remember that was my favorite show when I was seven years old! ( I may be dating myself here...:) ) The show was called "Fantastic Journey"! The show begin as a ship was lost in the Bremuda Triangle, encounter a mysterious storm,and they find a Island. First they meet a suave, but evil pirate and his crew that got stranded there in the 17th century, they manage to esape them.
The Island on the show was supposed to be HUGE, just like the LOST Island. The Island in " That '70's show" was divided by sections of "Energy" that seperated different civilizations and societies. The main characters would begin and end the show by passing through these "Time Barriers" to get from one section to the next. In the Pilot episode, I remember there were more characters, but when they reached the "City of Atlantis" ( which looked like that futuristic building in LA whose exterior shots were often used in Sci-Fi shows in the '70's ) some of them were mysteriously "Sent Back Home"...... ;)
But one major charcter was added in the pilot, that one that befriends the boy charcter ( played by a kid actor Ike Eismann something ) , who the main characters mistake him at first as an Arrowak Indian, but later on reveals that he is a time traveler from the future, that was stranded like they were, in the Island. He was I think , a scientist, and carried around a techno - glass rod thingy, with different types of powers. The only charcters I remember are the Scientist from the future, the kid, and the Roddy McDowell character, who was sorta the comic reflief of the show, I remember.
The main thrust of the show was that the charcters where exploring the Island, trying to find a way off it.
I really liked the show, it had a cool theme music, too bad I'm like only two people on earth that remembers it! :lol

As for that Pacific Ocean Parallel to the Bermuda Triangle, I'm very surprised no one here has mentioned that there are actually not one, not two, but a series of Zones in the world where some unknown gravitational force operates, deadening radio, compasses, and gauges! I have a whole series of "Bermuda Triangle" books I read when I was a kid ( BT theories, along with UFO's, were really popular things in the seventies, you know! ). According to the books that I managed to dig up, and have right in front of me, "Limbo off the Lost", by John Wallace Spencer, and "The Bermuda Triangle", by Adi - Kent Thomas, there is the "Devils Sea" off the southeast coast of Japan, and there are other lesser known mysterious regions of vanishings around the world, ten equally -spaced "blobs", "lozenges", "triangles", or "diamond shaped" areas, covering the face of the globe, which occur at exactly 72 degree intervals, each pitched at an angle of 25 degrees SW to NS -- FIVE in the northern hemisphere, and FIVE in the Southern!
And where are these regions? In additon to the Bermuda Triangle and the Devil's Sea : The Western Mediteranean; Afghanistan (the only land - locked region ); Northeast of the Hawaiian Island in the North Pacific; In the south hemisphere - The East Indian ocean, the western area of the Indian ocean off the southwestern coast of Austrailia; off the southeast coast of South Africa; off the southeast coast of Argentina; and....... THE TASMAN SEA OFF AUSTRAILA!
If this is true, then the Earth is spanned by a very percise trigometrical grid of equilateral triangles, all equidistant from each other. If you include the two Poles, this network incorporates twelve mysterious zones that involve unexplained disappearances.
I had another book called, I think "The Devil's Triangle", that actually had a map of these regions, called "vorticies", but I lent it to a friend of a friend of a friend a few years ago - And never got it back! :\

But re - reading these books , and reading the sections on "Plane Disappearances", I firmly believe strongly now that the charcters in LOST definitely are in some sort of "Limbo of the Lost" region somewhere in or near the South Pacific........ :)

How else can you explain away a HUGE island that no one knows about,and isn't supposed to be there? ( The Island would have to be around the size of the North Island of New Zealand..... Hmmmm.... )
As for LOST going into the same direction as that old TV show, "Fantastic Journey", I don't think so.... "Land of the LOST", maybe, but not that! :D

[ACHILLES]

Well done Max - I have been leaning more towards the Bermuda "Triangle" theory of late, or a Pacific Ocean equivalent, especially with the renewed search for Amelia Earhart across that far Southwest Pacific region. Also, in the past there have been some actual and remarkable feats of airmanship/piloting with aircraft in distress so the writers may be assuming we will at least accept that possibility.

[LostHorizon]

You're welcome!
By the way, I'm not Max!
:D

[ACHILLES]

My apologies Lost Horizon and again my compliments on the valuable information.

[LostHorizon]

No Problem, Achilles!
Just sharing the knowledge! :)

I wonder if any of the characters/ survivors have or will get a hold of some sort of Compass and / or GPS thingy.... I'm surprised that none of the survivors has one, or at least made one.

It's obvious that they can see the stars, so they can easily make a Sextant ( a sailing navigation instrument used in the past ), and figure out exactly where in Pacific Ocean they are at.

But they would definitely know if they were in some sort of "The Limbo of the Lost" if:

1) The "stars" in the sky are not the same .... :eek
2) No way to tell where "True North" was if they even had a working compass because of some mysterious electromagetic disturbance.
3) There is absolutely NO signal on the GPS....And they ( and we ) would all know what that means..... :p

[LostHorizon]

Lost Horizon Wrote:


I wonder if any of the characters/ survivors have or will get a hold of some sort of Compass and / or GPS thingy.... I'm surprised that none of the survivors has one, or at least made one.

As I would have expected, in tonight's episode, Sayid MADE a compass, and Locke had one ( for his Aussie Walkabout trip ).
I wonder why Locke said he didn't need it anymore...... :)
Next Episode...... I predict that Sayid makes a Sextant to navigate the Raft they are going to build.... :b


But they would definitely know if they were in some sort of "The Limbo of the Lost" if:

1) The "stars" in the sky are not the same .... :eek
2) No way to tell where "True North" was if they even had a working compass because of some mysterious electromagetic disturbance.
3) There is absolutely NO signal on the GPS....And they ( and we ) would all know what that means..... :p




Hmmm.....Just like all the literature regarding all the "Bermuda Triangle" Areas in the world mentions... Magnetic North on the Island is nowhere near "True North".....
And If my theory is correct, and if the Island is where I think it is, the survivors should accept the fact that it is going to be their home now....... :)

[chaos28]

That or Locke's compass was broken and the one Sayid made out of water worked. I think that was the implication.

[LostHorizon]

My Goodness, the most recent Postings are gone forever now!
I guess we have to redo these again!

[LostHorizon]

If we can, we have to repost all those maps that we did of the Vortices again , at least...

[LostHorizon]

Here is some psedoscience info regarding the Earth Geomantic Grid and Ivan Sanderson Here (http://ascension2000.com/Shift-of-the-Ages/shift14.htm) , Here (http://www.crystalinks.com/grids.html) and Here (http://www.crystalinks.com/grids2.html).
A great page with alot of Vortice infomation is Here (http://www.vortexmaps.com/htmla/gridhist.php).



Here is another Vortice Map from this page that describes the Hutchison effect (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/), and by demonstrating his "Triangle Machine", using electromagetism and Tesla machinery can explain the assumed Vortices around the world.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_misterios/bermuda_vilevortices.gif

"An example of Sanderson’s 12 vortices set at regular intervals around the earth, brought to his attention by the higher incidence of unexplained disappearances therein. The North ands south Pole account for the 11th and 12th vortices."

[kiwipat]

Note: The following 4 posts were originally on The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory thread.

Posted: 6/9/05 7:22 pm by kiwipat
The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

Not a new theory, merely an attempt to reignite interest in and consolidate one of the more credible theories on this board.

Note: The real credit for this theory must go to LostHorizon who first broached it, and Coyote1066....ohh and a guy call Ivan T. Sanderson.

In 1972 Sanderson postulated that there were 12 triangular areas or ‘Vile Vortices’ placed at equal distances around the world where various anomalies occur and where ships and airplanes mysteriously vanish without a trace.

The most famous of these is of course the Bermuda Triangle; the second most famous is the Devil’s Sea east of Japan.

These and another 8 triangles/vortices are laid out in the thumbnail map below (click to view):

http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/2949/vorticesmap2eq.th.gif (http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vorticesmap2eq.gif)

Sanderson also included an Antarctic vortex and an Arctic vortex to make up the 12.

Now...add to this notion the idea of a ‘neutral’ island located somewhere in the central Pacific - some ‘3 days out of Tahiti’ - an island that is a central dumping ground, a ‘middle of the spiders web’ if you will (thank you Coyote), and you have the theory in its latest incarnation as applied to our Lostaways.

Here’s how things have panned out under the theory so far:

Oceanic 815 enroute from Sydney to LA passed through the ‘Loyalty Islands’ vortex and was ported to the neutral island,

Danielle’s expedition was shipwrecked on the neutral island,

The Beechcraft carrying the Nigerian smugglers passed through the ‘Algerian’ (Saharan) vortex just north of Nigeria and was ported to the neutral island,

The Black Rock embarking Mozambique with slaves aboard passed through the ‘Zimbabwe’ vortex just off the coast of the country and was ported to the neutral island (hence its anomalous position high and dry inland),

& the polar bear was ‘drawn’ through the Arctic vortex :rolleyes

The theory also poses many interesting questions e.g. Could those mysterious island tides have something to do with the porting of objects to the island. i.e. Is the island literally being lifted or pushed down everytime something is ported?....and (more obviously) Could the mysterious hatched installation be part of some super-secret experiment by some ‘shadowy organisation’ to harness the forces of the vortices?.

Personally I find the TVV theory as applied to our Lostaways the most compelling theory yet. In fact it explains so much I can literally hear the writers sharpening their knives in the background ready to cut it down next season :D

P.S. Other things I suspect: Locke’s father appears to be a well travelled individual to many exotic locations - perhaps he knows of the Vile Vortices and is part of the effort to exploit them. The boat people in the season’s finale are ‘hired goons’ of the ‘shadowy organisation’ and are charged with making sure no one leaves the island. The organisation is particularly interested in Walt because it recognizes he has the personal ability to port/manifest objects much like the vortices can.

------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 6/10/05 12:04 am by Jays tao
Re: The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

Good to see you are still up and running fellow kiwipat.

The organisation is particularly interested in Walt because it recognizes he has the personal ability to port/manfest objects much like the vortices can.

I like this one.

------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 6/10/05 3:20 am by hg
Re: The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

I like this idea. I'm not well versed in the theories of Mr. Sanderson; can you give us a brief explanation based on (pseudo)science on how this portation takes place. Also, what are the physical properties of this neutral island and it's significance. I personally, after watching the lame Exudus fiasco, am of the belief that this is all a VR game; the airport is some theme park and they are all partaking in a VR Survivor: Oceanic-air experience.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is."
Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut

------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 6/10/05 3:36 pm by kiwipat
Re: The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

Well hg if it was instead named ‘Survivor: Bermuda Triangle’ it would certainly link your theory to this one :D Haven’t thought much about the neutral island yet - but here’s a bit about Sanderson:

As I understand it Sanderson was a major proponent of the idea that there exists a natural worldwide electromagnetic grid upon which objects can ‘ride’ the flowing currents of energy (ie grid lines) from one point to another.

Basically if an object is in the right place (a vortex) at the right time an electro-magnetic disturbance will transform the physical nature of the object into a ‘higher level of vibration', render it invisible, and allow it to shift with the natural energy currents to another place.

It is a notion very closely tied to the Philadelphia Experiment where allegedly an artificial device was used to transform a ship for transport across a grid line from Norfolk, Virginia to Philadelphia. Spookily Sanderson was a close friend of Dr. Morris Jessup - a key figure in the whole Philadelphia Experiment episode :eek

Also of interest: Sanderson apparently thought that the trigger for vortices to open had something to do with the hot and cold ocean currents crossing each other at the vortex points :rolleyes

Jays: Yes its obvious to me at least that someone or something has an interest in Walt because of his special powers. I think that just as the Vortic Web has the ability to port objects on a large scale - boats and planes, Walt has the ability to port objects on a smaller more modest scale ala the bird in his back-story and probably the polar bear. Walt may somehow be ‘plugged’ into the worldwide grid and this would be of great interest to his captors.

[hg]

Thanks kiwipat for your response. It seems to me that the physics of portation is based on the yet allegedly unresolved unified field theory. This has to be one of the top pseudoscience theories. :)

[beltzclan6]

All I can say is wow. The writers said it would be Pseudo Science and this certainly qualifies. It also has the privilege of having never been done before. I have to say this is now at the top of my list. Excellent research! Do you have any links to this guys theories or any that point to the link with the Philadelphia experiment? Just so doubters can read for themselves?

[beltzclan6]

Never mind... Found them in a previous post...

BUMP

[kiwipat]

It's also worth having a look at www.deepinfo.com/WorldGrid.htm (http://www.deepinfo.com/WorldGrid.htm)

Note: The site has a link to a page that deals with the world grid & the Philadelphia experiment. You can go directly to it here (http://www.dprins.demon.nl/convergence/9916.html)

[beltzclan6]

Again all I can say is wow. I had never heard of this before. It certainly seems like a possible direction the writers could go with. It would explain a lot. The compass comes to mind. I know that they had said that they were laughing out loud at some of the theories on here, and were struck at how acurate and close some of them were. I wonder if this is one of the ones close...

[magnet school]

beltz, you need to go back and read the infamous PINNERMAN'S THEORY thread, a foundational text on this board.

Pinnerman's update (Philly Ex) (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1847.topic)

[beltzclan6]

I like it. I like it a lot. Maybe these two are intertwined some way. I post on another forum as well, and basicly this theory is very close to mine. I got little response out of that other post, but there ar not 7500 registered memebers there as well. Looks like I found a new home. When I first started reading post here there was a lot of speculation about Flappy Black Crap. It's good to know that there are people that think in more realistic terms...

[kiwipat]

Thinking about the ‘neutral island’ at the center of the vortic web - it would of course have to be located on a grid line, and to work most efficiently would likely be located at a node (a node being a point other than one of the 12 vortices, where two or more grid lines intersect).

Below is a map of the planet’s electromagnetic grid as devised by a Mr.Chris Bird - based on the research of two bods named Becker and Hagens:

http://users.pandora.be/wouterhagens/biogeometry/Resources/planetary_grid.gif

....Now unfortunately we only have the meagerest of clues as to the LOST island’s location, but a likely candidate (at least in my opinion) amongst the nodes shown on the map may be the one numbered 31. It is located smack bang in the middle of the Pacific - in the centre of the triangular area formed by the Loyalty Islands (45), Hawaii (16), and Easter Island (47) vortices - and is situated just north of Tahiti.

Perhaps evil westerners discovered that the island was a node; put an installation on it to try to control the vortices; disrupted the ‘natural rhythm’ of the grid and the island; and in turn unleashed a stream of 'negative' energy (i.e. bad luck).

Certainly something to think about.

Note: For an excellent planetary grid site with a clickable map check out: users.pandora.be/wouterhagens/biogeometry/detailsgrid_uk.html (http://users.pandora.be/wouterhagens/biogeometry/detailsgrid_uk.html)

[Gambit980]

the slave ship could have come onboard at the bremuda trianlge.

[kiwipat]

That's what I initially thought until the Mozambique clue in Exodus II.

Under the TVV scenario the boat likely embarked Mozambique with slaves aboard & was sucked into the triangle covering the Mozambique channel (centred at point 41 of the grid map).

More info is posted on page 5 of this thread - However if you want to see how Oceanic 815, the Beechcraft, and the Black Rock likely entered the grid/vortic web click here (http://www.desearch.net/show.php/16264_Vorticesmap.gif)

[magnet school]

Or maybe at point 42?

hmmmmmmmm?

[boonehater]

hey jacksgirlfriend, dont you think the bears were created by walter? sorry has nothing to do with this topic just had to say. but apart from that yeah great.

[spooky]

bump

[kiwipat]

....Now unfortunately we only have the meagerest of clues as to the LOST island’s location, but a likely candidate (at least in my opinion) amongst the nodes shown on the map may be the one numbered 31. It is located smack bang in the middle of the Pacific - in the centre of the triangular area formed by the Loyalty Islands (45), Hawaii (16), and Easter Island (47) vortices - and is situated just north of Tahiti.
Others have since suggested to me that node 30 is a better candidate given the distance the French are likely to have travelled. Node 30 is located on the equator close to the Phoenix Islands...both it and 31 are directly linked to a nexus of points to the north being 15,16 & 8. Spooky!

[lostmio]

likely candidate (at least in my opinion) amongst the nodes shown on the map may be the one numbered 31.
-------------------------------------------------------
Others have since suggested to me that node 30 is a better candidate given the distance the French are likely to have travelled. Node 30 is located on the equator close to the Phoenix Islands...both it and 31 are directly linked to a nexus of points to the north being 15,16 & 8. Spooky!

I'm not familiar with vortices theory, but this is the general area of the date line also. Many of us believe much of the show's symbolism flows from the intersection of the date line & equator.

[Warthawg1]

Many of us believe much of the show's symbolism flows from the intersection of the date line & equator.

Funny, I heard Ron Popeil say the same thing about his 30 minute infomercial for the pocket fisherman.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I'm bumping this for those in CS's wrinkle in time thread. It's a shame most of it is gone. But there might be some juicy scraps left.

It might be fun to compare these ideas with CS's as they are similar. This thread came up with a system of global triangles that go through the center of the earth, complete with portals and time travel. One with a 4th dimensional cube component, and this with a 4th dimensional system of triangles. Apples and oranges, cubes and triangles.

Bumpety bump.

[drabauer]

Yeah SHBL, I'm sorry I didn't copy more into the archive of this thread at the cave. (http://www.swedishpoet.com/caves/the_caves_71.html) But when you rewrite what you've lost, things often turn out better. Jump on board folks!

[bigmouth]

I'd imagine this has been mentioned before, but further evidence for this theory is that compasses on the island appear to point to true (rather than magnetic) north.

[yung23]

if only sayid would look at one on the beach.

would we then know true north in relation to the beach..

no thanks to arzt's info, after specualtion (bymany) it doesn't seem true...

[JacksGirlfriend]

I don't remember how many pages there were to this thread but I can tell we lost a lot. I was just happy to see the entire first page still here.

Thanks, guys, for trying to put some of it back again. I think it was one of our most valuable. Everyone put a lot of time and energy into it and I think it's still a timely subject.

[lostmio]

further evidence for this theory is that compasses on the island appear to point to true (rather than magnetic) north.

Or the compasses are just incompatible with the location.

Compasses are manufactured specifically for use in particular locations. Even places as close together as Canada and Florida require different specs. The difference is the amount of weight added and to which needle tip (north or south) in order to compensate for how much the needle wants to dip.
In Australia, for example, the southern needle tip wants to dip downward, and the needle must be weighted at the other end. A compass brought from Europe or North America gives skewed readings because the needle is weighted at the north end.

[bigmouth]

biscuitmom: Good point, and one I hadn't considered. But I still find it interesting that compasses in the bermuda triangle are reported to point to true, rather than magnetic, north. I can't remember precisely Sayid said, but his exchange with Jack led me to believe that the compass was roughly 20 percent off, which would be just about right for the effect I describe.

[jaystao]

The ability to point north would not be effected, simply the 'dial' which is used to read it would be out of place. I had not considered this, thanks Biscuitmom. Its just the sort of really simple explanation that the writers would pull on us.

[kiwipat]

.....Bumping in the wake of the intriguing Channel 4 (http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/L/lost/main.html) site and its ref to the LOST flight as the "Fiji Triangle Mystery".

http://www.desearch.net/out.php/t16264_Vorticesmap.gif (http://www.desearch.net/show.php/16264_Vorticesmap.gif)

[kiwipat]

.....Bumping for Cliff V's sake.....

Note: The vile vortice stuff starts on pg 5 of this thread...don't be put off by the missing messages!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

bumping

[charlies dealer]

I thought I'd add to this thread that while the theories about the compass not being calibrated to the island as being a possibility - the reason they think the compass is out is because the way the sun rises and sets.

The original theory with the vortices map is a really good one - helps to explain the appearance of things that you really can't quite explain being there.

To whoever it was who asked about the Polar bear's being made by Walt - I believe Danielle mentions the Polar bear's being on the island, which would mean they were there before Walt was even born.

As for the hatch - I think we'll find out alot more in the first 3 episodes of season 2 8)

Charlie's dealer

[LostInWilderness]

As for the hatch, I bet we get more mysteries and few explanations.

[kiwipat]

dealer

Danielle did mention "the bears" when talking to Sayid - but I don't recall her saying anything about how long they'd been there :rolleyes

Regarding Walt - I said the following earlier in this thread:

Yes its obvious to me at least that someone or something has an interest in Walt because of his special powers. I think that just as the Vortic Web has the ability to port objects on a large scale - boats and planes, Walt has the ability to port objects on a smaller more modest scale ala the bird in his back-story and probably the polar bear. Walt may somehow be ‘plugged’ into the worldwide grid and this would be of great interest to his captors
Thinking back on this, I think that there could well be a clue to Walt's abilities to be found in his adopted surname i.e. "Porter" ;)

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Kiwipat,

This is the first connection I've seen relating Walt's last name to telekinetic travel. If you are right, that would mean the other's have stolen him to get themselves off the island. Which would mean that someone over there has a special ability to know Walt's special ability.

Where is the other thread where you first brought this up? Could you provide a link, as it might be a good discussion to jump into.

[kiwipat]

SHBL, So far I've only mentioned Walt's possible teleportation abilities in this thread (pg 5).

I see there is a thread titled "misconception about Walt's powers". I'm going to do a bit more research and might post something there soon.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Looking forward to it.

[yung23]

kiwipat, thats a great map, I havent seen the flight path etc put on it.. wow.

the answer is right in front of us.

[kiwipat]

Thanx yung, I'm confident it's part of the answer...And if I was a betting man I'd wager that another part probably lies somewhere in the Philly Experiment thread.

Regarding the map - its certainly no 3d wizardry like your own, but let me loose on basic Mspaint & there's no stopping me :lol

[kiwipat]

Bumping so this thread doesn't get blown away forever in the ep.1 onslaught! :D

[kiwipat]

So was there anything in ep.1 of relevance to the Vile Vortice theory?

One initial thought I have had is the connection between the Vile Vortices and the concept of Yin Yang. The Yin Yang symbol appears in the variation on the I-Ching trigrams symbol we see in the hatch complex - see screencap:

http://www.egoplex.com/images/lost1.jpg

Now...All 62 nodes on the Becker-Hagens Planetary Grid System Map that appears on page 7 of this thread (a map of connecting ‘portal’ lines between several different points including Sanderson’s 12 vile vortices) have either been classified Yin (cool), Yang (hot or 'vile'), or balanced.

The 12 vile vortice nodes are naturally Yang. All other nodes are either Yin (not strong or ‘hot’ enough to become vortices), or balanced. Note: The nodes on the equator are all balanced.

I’m speculating - but maybe the I-Ching symbol denotes the Island as a particular type of node....

I detect a definite new age vibe about what we have seen in ep.1.

More to come shortly!

P.S: Because the Becker-Hagens map was originally in colour, the coding makes it appear the Vile Vortices are Yin (cool) - Trust me they’re Yang!

[MyLittleTribe]

oh thank you for bumping this :)
I tried searching earlier today for it and got ezboard errors :(

[kiwipat]

In view of this enhancement made to the I-Ching logo (see below) it would seem that the facility is there to experiment with high energy magnetic fields.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6246/iching1an.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iching1an.jpg)
The word in the logo has been deciphered as AMRMHD (appearing backwards).

AMRMHD refers to an "Adaptive Mesh Refinement for Magneto-HydroDynamics".

I don’t pretend to understand it (yet)....but it sounds very much like they’re trying to tame a vortex!

Update:

OK If Desmond and his team were conducting an AMRMHD experiment it would mean that they were trying to conduct specialised computer analysis (AMR) on some kind of magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) field.

Perhaps that MHD field was the ultimate MHD field - the earth's core. Perhaps they thought that if they could better understand how the earth’s magnetic field worked they could in turn gain some insight into the electromagnetic gridline network that joins the 12 Vile Vortices.

There is a excellent resource on Magnetohydrodynamics (incl. its geophysical application) at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics)

I-Ching - Yin/Yang - Pos/Neg - Magnetism - Its all starting to make some sense now!

[LostHorizon]

Very interesting insights, Kiwipat!
If this can be linked to and / or has any connection to how the plane (s) crashed on the Island, Radio Transmissions being blocked, Philly Experiment projects, etc., then I would be a Happy Lost Camper!
:D

[DontWannaBLost]

Kiwipat, I like the AMRHRD decipher from the center of the logo, and I see it fitting well with the vortex theory in that:
The potential HRD source is the earth's core AND
If you imagine the 12 vortexes like spokes on a wheel, the common point they all eminate from and pass through is the center of the earth.

I think there is further validity they they somehow fell into the vortex portal to the center of the earth because they have seen no planes in the sky or boats on the horizon. It also goes with all the hints and speculation it may not be an island anyway.

What doesn't make sense to me, is that if this is some sort of contrived environment-the island surface, that is-is how the contrived day and night time on the surface would get out of sync with a contrived day and night in the hatch/underground? (I'm in the camp the light in Hatch is created to mimick daytime for those living there)

...BTW love the connection to Walt's last name!

[kiwipat]

Its one tentative step at a time with this AMRMHD thing LH...One step at a time.

Anyway its good to see u!! Is this just a flying visit or can we take you off the MIA list now :D

DontWannaBLost - I don't know what to make of this "it may not be an island" talk. I guess I’m content for now believing its still just a weird isolated island somewhere in the South Pacific serving as vortex dumping ground - although your point that the magnetic/portal lines may pass through the earth’s core rather than over the earth’s surface (as in the
Becker-Hagens map) is something I hadn’t previously considered :rolleyes

http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/2949/vorticesmap2eq.th.gif (http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vorticesmap2eq.gif)
The vortices have been around since time immemorial.
DHARMA are only the new kids on the block

[LostHorizon]

kiwipat wrote:

Its one tentative step at a time with this AMRMHD thing LH...One step at a time.

It's Great theory kiwipat.Yes, I understand how the theory can be tentative, but It seems to fit with things so far! Once I get back to speed with the series, I hope to once again contribute some more interesting info regarding Voticies as you have been doing these past few months!


kiwipat wrote:
Anyway its good to see u!! Is this just a flying visit or can we take you off the MIA list now :D

Good to be back!
I just took a break from the board during the Series summer Hiatus, and after that infamous EZboard hack at the end of last May that wiped out most of this and other threads......
If we can get more information from Desmond, hopefully, maybe we can try to figure out some things regarding the Bermuda Triangle - like nature of the Lost Island, but so far, it seems that he is as out there and wacky as that French Chick Danielle!

BTW, Great update on the map! :D

[kiwipat]

OK If Desmond and his team were conducting an AMRMHD experiment it would mean that they were trying to conduct specialised computer analysis (AMR) on some kind of magneto hydrodynamic (MHD) field.

Perhaps that MHD field was the ultimate MHD field - the earth's core. Perhaps they thought that if they could better understand how the earth’s magnetic field worked they could in turn gain some insight into the electromagnetic gridline network that joins the 12 Vile Vortices.
Ok I’ll take this one step further....maybe DHARMA was trying to analyse and contain a portion of the ionised gas (MHD plasma) that comprises the vortic web itself!

.....But there was a containment accident with many within the complex contracting radiation sickness and dying. Desmond boarded them up and proceeded to take his anti-rad medication. He has been waiting in vain to be rescued/relieved of his post....but as we can see he has gone a little crazy...

[Note: My current thinking is that Desmond & his particular unit comprised just the “guard post” of a much larger complex. With little problem with security, and as shifts came and went, computer equipment & decor in this part of the facility remained little changed from when it was first installed in the 70s/80s - the real experimentation i.e. the AMRMHD experimentation was done further in!]

[kiwipat]

Bumping in view of the following passage from the Orientation video:
You and your partner are currently located in Station 3 or "The Swan"--and will be for the next 540 days. Station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory, where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations eminating from this sector of the island.

Not long after the experiments began, however, there was an incident. And since that time, the following protocol has been observed (ie.the execute button protocol).
Could a periodically active vortic web be responsible for these “unique electromagnetic fluctuations”?

Could the "incident" have been some kind of containment accident??

...Or... is the whole thing really just one big hippy psycho-sociological experiment with an as yet unrevealed aim?!?

hmmmmmmmmmmm :rolleyes IWBNI we could see what's in that boarded up room!!

[bigmouth]

kiwi: Fascinating find! I notice that AMARMHD is a technology used to control fusion reactions. I've largely abandoned my previous speculation that Desmond might have a small fusion reactor in the Hatch. But perhaps this is a clue the theory is still viable!

[TheBigCat]

I don't know that something as exotic as a fusion reactor, or even a common fission reactor woud be required for the island. For that matter, would either one even be desirable? Both would require refueling, Hydrogen gas for the former and inriched Uranium for the latter, and both need constant supervision and maintanance.

However, looking at the timeframe of the Dharma Project's initiation, the late '60s and early '70s, and it's scientific utopianist idealogy I am given the idea that there could be another source of power entirely. That period was the dawning of the concept that is today known as "green energy", that is, energy from renewable sources which cause as little impact on the environment as possible. Unfortunately, most of these concepts proved either unfeasible on a large scale or not as environmentaly friendly as they had hoped. (ask anyone who lives near a wind farm and they will tell you that apart from transient fowl, the area is almost devoid of indigenous fauna).

But some of the concepts could be feasible on a small scale, and I have seen one of them mentioned here: A means of generating power from the ocean which makes use of differences in water temperature and current, and has no moving parts. Another could be some form of power generation using the island's natural magnetic anomaly which was mentioned in the orientation film.

[bigmouth]

bigcat: It's admittedly a stretch, esp. the maintenance problem. But consider that fusion energy is viewed as the holy grail by utopian "green energy" types. And the need for hydrogen could explain the cable in the water--perhaps it's an electrolysis device of some sort.

Truthfully, I wouldn't have revived the speculation but for AMRMHD. My limited understanding is that it's a code used to model magnetic control of plasma. Has anyone found a plausible application of this technology for something BESIDES fusion? If so, real world links would be appreciated.

[kiwipat]

awsecond,

From what I can gather, in the real world AMRMHD coding has in the main only been used for modelling or simulating conditions in small fusion experiments eg. as occur in tokamaks. However it is increasingly being used in the field of astrophysics to simulate such things as stellar core collapse; to chart ionised plasma in space; and analyse planetary magnetospheres.

[kiwipat]

Back to basics...

Q. Could Desmond have been a victim of the Vile Vortices?

Assuming our Island is really a tropical island in the Pacific, it doesn’t quite tally that Desmond could have arrived there as part of a round the world yacht race.

World yacht races typically involve long stages through the southern oceans - and the leg through the Pacific typically ventures though the southern cooler lattitutes, no where near the tropics. This is because it's the fastest route with the least landmass. There are no hazards such as reefs and becalming winds to worry about.

So...if this is the case how could Desmond come to be on the island? One possible explanation is that just like Oceanic 815, the Black Rock & the Nigerian beechcraft his vehicle was transported there through a vile vortex.

Below is a thumbnail of the vortice map combined with the course for your typical round the world yacht race (the Volvo Ocean Race 2001-2002):

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1638/vorticesyacht9nm.th.gif (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vorticesyacht9nm.gif)
As you can see from the routes involved there would have been ample opportunity for Desmond to have entered one of the seaborne vile vortices and be “whisked” off to the Island. Perhaps it was the famous Bermuda Triangle, Perhaps the one off Reo, Maybe the one off Mozambique responsible for the Black Rock...Or perhaps it was the Loyalty Islands or “Fiji Triangle” responsible for Oceanic 815 (and possibly Danielle’s crew). Maybe Desmond fell victim to it as he rounded the top of New Zealand, on his way to or from Sydney?

Now there’s a fair amount of ‘perhapses and maybes’ here, but it is certainly an explanation for how Desmond’s boat, and all those other anomalous vehicles could have made it to the Island.

[LostHorizon]

kiwipat wrote:
Q. Could Desmond have been a victim of the Vile Vortices?

My Thoughts exactly!
I was beginning thinking along the same lines when Desmond told Jack about his boat race around the world back in the LA Flashback scene, and finding out that it was him in the Hatch all along.
Then when Desmond told jack that he became shipwrecked on the Island, that was just too coincidental for things.


Great map BTW!
Yes, Desmond's ship/boat would have to pass through at least 4 Vorticle Triangles during a similar race around the world, so the chances of him reaching the LOST Island that way are pretty good.

Wonder where on the Island are the location of the remains of his boat ?

[LostHorizon]

I guess by now we know that the Hatch's power supply is some sort of Geothermal type generator. Yet Sayid did hint that the reason that the Concrete barrier was put in place may be because of some "Nuclear - type" accident. Can this somehow be linked to the Magnetic Grid "Ley" like lines and the properties of the Vorticies?

Anyway, I was thinking after the scene when Claire found the Message bottle from the Raft on the beach in the "Everyone hates Hugo" episode. I am not sure if this was even discussed in any other thread, but it seems to me that the ocean currents surrounding the Island seem to me closed, that is that any type of vessle that tries to leave the Island is somehow brought back to it. I wonder if there is anything in the Vortice literature regarding the topic of localized /or closed / or vortex - like ocean sea currents, and their nature....

I state these instances from the show to illustrate my point..

1) When the Raft Crew meets "The Others", they are about 15 miles out from the Island, and after it is blown up by them , the flotsam remains that Sawyer and Michael are on drifts BACK to the Island, instead of continuing out to sea..
And They not only end up back on the Island, but on the other side of it , coincidently right where the other Tail Section Crash Survivors are.

2) The message bottle from the blown up raft also drifts back to the Island, not only that, but coveniently right back to the beach where the Fusilage survivors are!
Poetic license?

3 ) The Other's ship , as Sawyer noted, is a short range boat. Is it possible that the boat can only travel in and around the vacinity of the Island, and not beyond some sort of "boundary"?

4) The reason to explain the present Location of the Black Rock ( ?? )

What do you think?

[kiwipat]

LH

The only refs to ocean currents in triangle/vortex lore I am aware of are:

1) The strong "hot and cold" currents that Sanderson (the originator of the TVV theory) believed crossed the vortices, which he thought were responsible for the electromagnetic abnormalities, and...

2) The swift gulfstream current that cuts through the middle of the Bermuda Triangle - that many think is responsible for getting rid of the evidence of disasters.

However this said you still might be on to something regarding the tendency for things to float back toward our Island - There are islands in the real world that lie at the junction of two or more currents that have more than the usual amount of flotsam washing ashore....and shipwrecks.

But...as you know at one point a strong tide came in and took all the plane wreckage out never to be seen again! So who knows what's happening with the ocean!

[DontWannaBLost]

Interesting observation, LH, on the location of the items that drifted back to the island...although there could be more than just currents to blame here.

I can't help but think of the shark as an influence as to where Michael and Sawyer landed...perhaps the shark is a mechanism to control the currents and purposely led them to Jin (who maybe swam to get there so quickly?)...I think we saw the shark as a threat to Michael and Sawyer, but maybe it was really there to protect them and see them reunited with Jin who may have been in more jeapardy from the back end of the plane's people had he not been able to communicate in some way (ie: through Michael and Sawyer)...JMO

[kiwipat]

Recently there’s been some discussion regarding Alvar Hanso’s shadowy role in WWII and his possible Nazi connections.

Now if Hanso really had Nazi connections could he have known of the Vile Vortices? Well yes he could have - especially if he had connections to the SS and an organisation known as Das Ahnenerbe...

Heinrich Himmler founded the Ahnenerbe Society (the ancestral heritage branch of the SS) in 1935. Its mission was to “investigate the space, spirit, accomplishments, and heritage of the Indo-Germanic peoples of the Nordic race”.

It was staffed by a wide range of academics organised into at least fifty different research units or "Institutes". Its interests included astronomy, archeology, biology, medical experimentation, and geophysics. It also had an interest in the “secret sciences” namely the paranormal and the occult.

The Society expended a great deal of resources searching for mythical Aryan localities such as Atlantis & Lemuria, and in trying to locate semi-mythical objects such as the Holy Grail. It conducted expeditions to Antarctica and to the Arctic, as well as to the ‘Aryan homelands’ of Tibet and Nepal.

The 1938 expedition to Tibet was the largest and most ambitious ever undertaken by the Society. Those taking part are said to have searched for hidden cities beneath the Himalayas; to have conducted some kind of 'geophysical' research; and to have hunted for the abominable snowman!

Now both the North and South poles, and the area covered by Tibet and Nepal are Vile Vortice hotspots. Considering Ahnenerbe's interests its not hard to imagine a certain fascination developing with the strange magnetic anomalies in these regions and with the vortices themselves.

Expeditions were curtailed during the war itself, and once it had ended very few of the Society’s members were called to account. Indeed most were to became important scholars in post-war Germany. Many of those who did have blood on their hands (most notoriously those in the Society's deathcamp units) managed either to escape or to cover up their pasts. Some even took up respectable positions in the West.

Now what if a young SS officer - familiar with Ahnenerbe's secrets and with knowledge of the vortices - wanted to continue the Society's research under the new and respectable guise of Alvar Hanso & The Hanso Foundation...

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/7865/hansonazi5vi.gif

Just a thought :smokin

[kiwipat]

A note on the symbols in my previous post:

The symbol on the left is an Ahnenerbe badge patterned on the Odin rune:
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/9413/odinrune5xo.gif

To me the HF logo definitely displays pseudo-fascist qualities, and may be based on the Odin rune as well.

Note: The actual symbol of the Ahnenerbe Society looked like this:
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/9485/ahnenerbe24lr.gif

As an interesting aside the Society was the inspiration for the Nazis in the Indiana Jones films and the Wolfenstein games!

[bigmouth]

kiwi and losthorizon: have you seen clayseason's theory (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=2272.topic&index=36) regarding tesseracts, the equinox, and the various doorways to the island around the world? Strikes me as a highly plausible pseudoscientific explanation along the lines of the vile vortices. Also, if the island is indeed inside a tesseract, this would explain why escape by boat is impossible, and all currents drift naturally back to shore.

[jaystao]

Kiwipat, ever play the comp game series 'broken sword'. Thats what all these secretive symbols and 'clues/mysteries' reminds me off. What they need is "gearge Stobart' on the show to figure things out and 'aquire' little novelties to help him unravel the island mystery - and who would of thought that this little bottle of vodca would lead me here, of all places.

[kiwipat]

Jays...never played the game but you do get the feeling that TPTB are definitely having fun stringing us along with all these symbols...

awsecond...clayseason's theory while awesome is very 'mathy' and needs something like Nazis to sex it up :D

Seriously though I like the idea that both theories rely on the concept of hyper-dimensional portal travel to explain the anomalous objects on the island - one via magnetic gridlines connecting to a global vortex network, the other via time/geographically sensitive 'doorways’.

The island within a tesseract would explain why our heroes are seemingly trapped and 'invisible' to outsiders (and I guess it could also explain the weird symmetry of the constellations to those looking out of it). Perhaps there's room for convergence here...perhaps objects enter the Vile Vortices but instead of reemerging simply get stuck in hyper-dimensional tesseracts?

Anyway its all cool! but when all said and done we got Nazis!

[bigmouth]

kiwi: Oh, I'm with you 100% re the nazis, who were obsessed with enochian magic (much like lovecraft) and mysticism generally. I agree with you that it's entirely plausible that the nazis have knowledge of the doorways, though I personally continue to believe that it was the americans who first discovered them via the phillie experiment. (I suspect the disaster associated with that experiment was a result of forcing the doorways open on a day besides the equinox).

I suspect that, after the war, the surviving nazis learned of the island through their illuminati connections with the US. Then Adolph Hit-er, Alvar Hanso reinvents himself as an icon of the military industrial complex, and takes control of the island to pursue his scientific and mystical projects.

[xkmaillost]

The pilot makes a good point that they lost all radio electroncs ? contact and they decided to return to fiji. I think as this large of a plane uses electronic altitude instruments, its very possible that they were actually only a few hundred feet above land and actually rolled through the cloud bank above the island, and hit a treetop or something which made the plane break apart and the three sections land with survivors intact.
A few years ago a plane went into a nose dive off the coast of california and most people died instantly at only 10,000 feet altitude.
kevin

[jaystao]

There miles up when they split. Its day light and ... waitaminute. If there is a high enough mountain and they werent expecting it..... hmmmm. It seemed like they were quite high but that could be a camera trick. The only real exception I have to this however is that no one looked out of the window and saw an island or how low they actually were.... though they were probably busy putting their masks on. Like your centipeded 'others' walking by the way, genious!

[LostHorizon]

kiwipat wrote:

The island within a tesseract would explain why our heroes are seemingly trapped and 'invisible' to outsiders (and I guess it could also explain the weird symmetry of the constellations to those looking out of it). Perhaps there's room for convergence here...perhaps objects enter the Vile Vortices but instead of reemerging simply get stuck in hyper-dimensional tesseracts?

I read Clayseason's theory and all the pages in that thread, in some ways it is similar to the Vorticies theory, but, while all the Dateline/Equator numbers thing looks feasible and logical, doorways that only open to a place on a few certain days just does not, which wouldn't explain why there are so many apparent Crashes/ Shipwrecks on the Island, as opposed to a few. But I do think that the Tesseract idea by itself could be easily grafted into the Vorticies theory - with portals leading to a closed place in another dimension, but thatmay just be too similar to " LAND of the LOST " - which I'm sure that TPTB ( What exactly is a "TPTB" anyway?:| ) are quite familiar with ....
Still, the "Wrinkle in Time" theory may be important clue, since it was one of the books that Sawyer was reading at the beach.


Anyway, do you think that there is any way of re-creating the Vorticies maps that were here that were all lost in last May's E-Z Hack for all the new people here ?
:\

[kiwipat]

...I suspect that, after the war, the surviving nazis learned of the island through their illuminati connections with the US. Then Adolph Hitler - Alvar Hanso reinvents himself as an icon of the military industrial complex, and takes control of the island to pursue his scientific and mystical projects. Entirely plausible! (at least in terms of LOST entirely plausible :D )

I personally suspect an SS link not only because it oversaw a ‘masterplan’ organisation like Ahnenerbe, but because it was also in charge of the Nazi's advanced weapons programme - a likely source of research for Hanso’s post-war hi-tech armaments business.

The Americans definitely knew of hyperdimensional portal travel in 1943 via the Philadelphia Experiment, and IMO also had knowledge of the global magnetic grid network that connects the 12 Vile Vortices. As you say....perhaps with their and Hanso’s combine knowledge some kind of 'super initiative' was launched?

LH,

I’m struggling to remember what actually went missing from this thread?

For those who are new here, you will find a synopsis of the global vortices theory on page 5, with vortex-related maps appearing on pgs 5 & 7.

Below is a thumbnail (click to view) showing the vortices that Oceanic 815, the beechcraft, and the Black Rock may have disappeared into, to perhaps travel within a planetary grid system (http://users.pandora.be/wouterhagens/biogeometry/detailsgrid_uk.html) and emerge (or not) who knows where!


http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/2949/vorticesmap2eq.th.gif (http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vorticesmap2eq.gif)

[lacenaire]

Hi bigcat

I just watched the film and found some resemblance with the pilot episode of Lost.

1. The movie begins with a plane crash not shown directly, just with some cartoons.

2. THe first actual real life shot is of a boy that wakes up in the jungle. Then he finds another boy.

3. They walk together until they find a beach and look into the ocean and across.

4. The ringleader of the crazy hunters is called Jack.

5. Murders happen only near the water or when it's raining.

6. There is "a monster".

7. There are "others".

8. The plane belonged to the US Army.

I'm sure there's more.

[yung23]

lace..what film , Im curious, I read back but I couldnt find cat mention it..

[kiwipat]

Amongst the missing posts I seem to recall the odd screencap or two from one Coyote1066 (Ahhh yes Coyote1066 - what vortex did you disappear into?)

Anyway thinking of this prompted me to locate this cap of the “Sahara map” found in the Nigerian beechcraft in Deus Ex Machina:

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/3378/sahara22us.jpg

Lostaways will recall the camera panning up the map (i.e. north) from Nigeria to the SAHARA - suggesting that the plane had a less than conventional route to the island (imo falling into the Sahara vortex!).

BTW Lace! - Your posts are far too insightful to end up in the wrong threads :D

[f815g23]

8o Today, I was watching a program on the Discovery Channel, which was about the Bermuda Triangle and (as often happens) my thoughts turned to "Lost". The area of the B.T. has pockets of methane under the sea-bed. Through holes in the seafloor, the gas seeps through, creating bubbles of gas that rise to the surface. Sometimes these bubbles are HUGE. If they come up under a ship, the ship loses bouyancy, gets knocked about and sinks.

Also, when the bubbles rise and break on the surface, the methane rises into the atmosphere. When methane gets into a plane engine, the methane causes the engine to totally cut out. It only takes .599% of methane in the air to kill a plane engine. If there is a spark, as we all know from scores of doofi who try and light their farts on fire, there will be an explosion.

The area of the Pacific, where the island is supposed to be, is highly geoactive and I would wager there is a goodly amount of methane trapped below the seafloor. This methane brought down Flight 815. This would all tie in with the Vortex Theory quite tidly, wouldn't you agree?
http://www.thefuselage.com/Gallery/files/1/1/5/danielles-gun.gif

[kiwipat]

Ahh yes...The Methane Gas Theory aka The Oceanic Flatulence Theory. Along with strange magnetic fields a favorite BT theory of the technically minded....

Personally I doubt that a rising methane cloud could break an aircraft up at 40,000 ft and deliver many of its passengers alive to the ground....but hey! - An Island That Breaks Wind - Now that’s a novel theory!

[Chameleon]

Below is a thumbnail (click to view) showing the vortices that Oceanic 815, the beechcraft, and the Black Rock may have disappeared into, to perhaps travel within a planetary grid system and emerge (or not) who knows where!

Wow !!

I did some research yesterday on vortices and found a website that gives the entrance/exit point for each vortex.
For example, the exit point for the Bermuda Triangle is western Australia !!

By the way, wasn't Lenny stationed in western Australia ??

I'll go back and post the site.

[Chameleon]

I found the website.
Below is an excerpt from the main page :






SOME WORLD POWER PLACES
Possible Birth of Vortex
Lake Baikal-Siberia

Time-Warp Vortexes:
Gold Hill-Oregon; Sardine Creek, Oregon
Devil's Footprints-North Carolina
Blowing Rock-North Carolina

Natural Beacon Vortexes:
Ayers Rock-Australia
Devil's Tower-Wyoming


Glastonbury Tor-Somerset, England
Stone Mountain-Georgia
Silbury Hill-Wittshire, EnglandAdditional Vortexes:
Mt. Shasta
Haleakala (Hawaii)
Yucatan (Mexico)
Amazon (Brazil)
Mt. Sinai
Killimanjaro (Africa)
Shamballa (Gobi Desert)
Himalaya
Mt. Fujiyama
Poles of Vortex Axis'

ENTRANCE/EXIT :

Angkor Wat, Cambodia/Machu Picchu, Peru
Bermuda, Atlantic Ocean/Stirling Range, West Australia
City of Refuge, Hawaii/Kalahari Desert, Botswana
Great Pyramids, Egypt/Tubuai Island, South Pacific
Katmandu, Nepal/Easter Island, South Pacific
Mihintale, Sri Lanka/Galapagos Islands, Pacific Ocean
North Geographic Pole/South Geographic Pole
North Magnetic Pole/South Magnetic Pole
Stonehenge, England/Stewart Island, New Zealand
Ulan Ude, USSR/Tierra del Fuego, Chile & Argentina
Sedona, Arizona/Indian Ocean

NOTE: Several places in Las Vegas, Nevada are considered entrances--Red Rock is
one.
Barstow, California is an exit. At this time, unknown from what entrance.


www.paranormalplace.com/page2.html (http://www.paranormalplace.com/page2.html)




0]

[kiwipat]

Interesting site Chameleon....

I’ve noticed as you probably have that many vortice authors/researchers assign their vortices to places with mystical or spiritual importance - I guess this could extend to include Las Vegas right? :D

Anyway here’s another vortice map I've found on the Net. The natural contact areas denote the 12 Vile Vortices...and as far as I can gather the artificial contact areas denote man-induced vortic entry or exit points under military control.

http://www.viewzone.com/vortex.gif

I’ll try to find out more!


ETA: OK it seems that the ac areas might be HAARP facilities run by the USAF & US Navy. See here (http://www.viewzone.com/evilfire.html). Since 1993 HAARP - the High frequency Active Auroral Research Program - has been conducting electromagnetic experiments on the earth’s ionosphere.

Some (including the author of the above map) say that the military is harnessing and concentrating the power of the ionosphere into destructive death rays!.....Others say they are doing irreparable damage to the layer which may one day kill us all!!.....All HAARP will officially admit too is using “active probing techniques” on patches of the ionosphere directly above its facilities to study the layer’s physics. To do this they apparently shoot “small” amounts of energy at and into the layer.

Now what if HAARP is in fact “tapping into” the Vile Vortice network - the same network that claimed Oceanic 815, the Black Rock and the Beechcraft? What if the ionosphere is the unifying fabric connecting all the vile vortices, and HAARPs “active probing” is generating artificial vortices in the ionospheric plasma?

Hmmmmmmmmm:rolleyes

[jaystao]

Thanks for the info Kiwipat. I love this thread, but haven't anything to contribute just yet so I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride. Wonder if we'll ever get a any little side quips to this theory in LOST - Oh wait, they already introduced that whole Nigarian drug plane issue that along with the Black rock reinforced the idea of 'multiple' entry points. Hmmmmm.... is the island the vile vortex central nexus or something that resides on its peripheral boarders. A possible place to conduct experiments similar to that 'black' hole movie where they had a space station or something just on the brink of the event horizon. Maybe the incident was the island actually drifting/phasing slowly towards that event horizon - not quite there yet maybe, hence the 108 sequence.

[Chameleon]

Kiwipat :

I appreciate the extra effort.

and as far as I can gather the artificial contact areas denote man-induced vortic entry or exit points under military control.
The military has known about vortices and magnetic anomalies for quite some time.
In a US court in 1912, a small tribe of Native Americans lost their rights to a section of land on Long Island. The land was acquisitioned by the military for research and development. Later, it became known as Camp Hero. This is where the Montauk experiments were conducted.
Camp Hero is located right on top of a magnetic anomaly that is quite remarkable in size and intensity.

All HAARP will officially admit too is using “active probing techniques”
HAARP is a cover name for a diversified weapons system --- some of these weapons were tested and developed during the Montauk Project.
Ever wonder why units of the vaunted Republican Guard surrendered so quickly during the Persian Gulf War ??
Helicopters equipped with mind control devices flew over their positions. Within minutes, Iraqi soldiers were surrendering in droves.
Mind control capability was developed by the Montauk Project and is one of several weapons in the HAARP system. Some other weapons include weather control and particle beams.



0]

[kiwipat]

Yes the whole “Montauk Mythos” thing is quite fascinating....

The goings on at Montauk have been discussed in other threads, but I think there’s at least 2 aspects of it worth mentioning here in light of recent postings:

1. The story that the government forcibly took control of the base in the 90s to shut down an unauthorised time-travel/time-altering program - a program allegedly staffed by ex Nazi scientists & funded with Nazi money (Hello HANSO!), and

2. The rumour that HAARP is the current tenant of the base (exploiting its location within an electromagnetic grid). Quote “The HAARP Project gives every indication of being the successor to certain aspects of the Montauk Project-particularly the interdimensional and time operations, and to a number of other EM/RF mind control/manipulation operations as well” See here (http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/quin1198.htm#23).

I guess that if the LOST PTB are ever going to cite “real life” pseudo-scientific lore pertaining to interdimensional travel or to any of the other operations cited above, then at some stage we’re going to hear the words Philadelphia Experiment, Montauk, HAARP, Rainbow, Phoenix etc....

[kiwipat]

Gidday Everyone

Just bumping my favorite thread to see what happens....and it seems fine !

Kiwi :rolleyes4

[jmb3rg3r]

Who the hell are all you people?

:iloveusig

[kiwipat]

I was kiwipat before...and I'm kiwipat now.

I take it you are the poster formally known as egoplex?? :eyebrow:

[jmb3rg3r]

BUSTED~!

Yes, I usually use this username on boards, the use of egoplex (my Web site) came from a moment of sudden whimsy.

[kiwipat]

Cool!

Well to celebrate the fact that we are all newbies again (I feel so virginal :p ), I’m posting here a new and slightly improved version of the LOST Vile Vortices map. Vortice descriptions have been amended to more conventional “Triangle” names, including the “Fiji Triangle”.

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/4554/vorticesmap24rv.gif

Real newbies if you are interested in the Twelve Vile Vortices theory & how it relates to LOST the discussion starts on page 6.

:rockon:

[LostHorizon]

Hi!
I'm Losthorizon!
I think I've fallen thru a Vortice, because everything looks different here, yet the same....
:confused:

....Time to begin the begin yet again.....

http://www.crystalinks.com/devilstrimap.jpg


:)

[LostHorizon]

I guess by now we know that the Hatch's power supply is some sort of Geothermal type generator. Yet Sayid did hint that the reason that the Concrete barrier was put in place may be because of some "Nuclear - type" accident. Can this somehow be linked to the Magnetic Grid "Ley" like lines and the properties of the Vorticies?

Anyway, I was thinking after the scene when Claire found the Message bottle from the Raft on the beach in the "Everyone hates Hugo" episode. I am not sure if this was even discussed in any other thread, but it seems to me that the ocean currents surrounding the Island seem to me closed, that is that any type of vessle that tries to leave the Island is somehow brought back to it. I wonder if there is anything in the Vortice literature regarding the topic of localized /or closed / or vortex - like ocean sea currents, and their nature....

I state these instances from the show to illustrate my point..

1) When the Raft Crew meets "The Others", they are about 15 miles out from the Island, and after it is blown up by them , the flotsam remains that Sawyer and Michael are on drifts BACK to the Island, instead of continuing out to sea..
And They not only end up back on the Island, but on the other side of it , coincidently right where the other Tail Section Crash Survivors are.

2) The message bottle from the blown up raft also drifts back to the Island, not only that, but coveniently right back to the beach where the Fusilage survivors are!
Poetic license?

3 ) The Other's ship , as Sawyer noted, is a short range boat. Is it possible that the boat can only travel in and around the vacinity of the Island, and not beyond some sort of "boundary"?

4) The reason to explain the present Location of the Black Rock ( ?? )

What do you think?


and now we can add...

5) Jin washes ashore BACK on the Island, near the EXACT place where the raft debris Sawyer and Mike's are on ends up....
something is definitely unusual going on here....
:confused:

[loksipan]

Not a bad interpretation here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sh/47743274/

She also mentions that they are passenger seat assignments. Has this been checked?

[John Charles]

Excellent. Who here can tell us how long they were on the flight for and whether this could really be the location of the island?

[dialed]

Depends on who's estimate you go by... if it is the pilot that was yanked out of the cabin window by the whatever, he said about an hour off course. Cindy the stewardess said about 2 hours. Cindy's estimate would fit alittle better, imo. But that is another mystery, who is right?!:eek:

[Crandyman]

Hello and Welcome to Losttv-foru.com. Have fun and look around.

Pilot

6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.


I think your times are a little off and that is understandable since there seems to have been a time-continuity error since the airing of "48 Days". I go by what the the airplane pilot said in the Pilot episode.

As for the numbers, there are several interesting numbers threads and island location threads that I think you may be interested in. A lot of these ideas are being tossed around in there.

Official Numbers Thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7435&highlight=gps+coordinates)

another plus for the Bermuda Triangle theory (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7504&highlight=location+island)

[yung23]

bumping..

[bigmouth]

Could this be the significance of the 108 minutes? Perhaps entry of the numbers signals a satellite positioned in a sun-synchronous orbit at those coordinates above the earth.

[LostInWilderness]

You might want to check out Sledgeweb's map in GD. There's alot of coordinates discussion in the Bermuda Triangle thread. Merging.

[LostHorizon]

Bumping for all the "Triangle" experts here on the board....:)

http://www.scifi.com/triangle/

http://a.as-us.falkag.net/dat/bgf/200511/02/300x250.jpg

Sci- Fi channel is really promoting the heck out of this miniseries......I Hope its good...:rolleyes:

I like their little jab at a certain popular ABC show........
"Nothing stays LOST forever...." :p

I wonder where Dean Devin got the original idea from.... ;)

[Lost_RuNNeR]

Lol, must have been very hard to conceive something like that.
But hey, that's just how TV works nowadays.

[LostHorizon]

The scifi channel just had a mini serious on called "The Triangle." It was about this experiment. I didn't watch the whole thing, but it was almost like they took posts from this site and made it into a movie :)

Yeah, the series seemed to have a little of everything from the T & S sections of this site, from the Philly experiment, Electromagnetic disturbances, waves of Quantum wave-form collapse at Macro levels, etc. But I was VERY surprised that they didn't throw in the "Global Vortice Portal" theory - maybe they didn't have time and space to put that in in a three - day miniseries.
As for the whole series itself, I read somewhere ( Sci-Fi? Starlog? I forget, it was in a magazine store ) that "The Triangle" was made as a small "backended pilot" miniseries, the way the new remake of "Battlestar Galactica" was originally. The show ended with a closed ending, but it would be very easy for Sci- Fi channel to green light a full series for Singer and Devlin to make for next year if the ratings were good and there was a possibility of it being in the schedule for next season.....:p

[kiwipat]

Originally posted by LostHorizon post#137
Jin washes ashore BACK on the Island, near the EXACT place where the raft debris Sawyer and Mike's are on ends up....something is definitely unusual going on here....
LH

There's a discussion in GD regarding "tidal dynamics around tropical islands" that may go some way to explaining this.

See: The sea surrounding the island (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11903)

[LostHorizon]

Thanks Kiwipat, checked out the thread, but didn't really find much new information regarding the closed current phenomenom there...Oh Well..
This reminds me of an episode of the old 70's Sci-Fi series " Land of the Lost ", where the Marshall family tries to leave the Land by raft by River, and after a long time floating through a canyon in the mountains, end up back in the Land at episode's end!!
The "Land of the Lost" was a "closed,created world" in another dimenison, I wonder if the Lost Island is the same thing?

[LostInWilderness]

So you're saying it is the Philly Experiment from the future and things appear all out of time like Time Loops all occurring in the Bermuda Triangle? Somebody should tie those three theories together.

Just kidding. Really.

[jmb3rg3r]

Speaking of the Philadelpha Experiment:

http://news.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=16902006

AN EXTRAORDINARY "hyperspace" engine that could make interstellar space travel a reality by flying into other dimensions is being investigated by the United States government.

The hypothetical device, which has been outlined in principle but is based on a controversial theory about the fabric of the universe, could potentially allow a spacecraft to travel to Mars in three hours and journey to a star 11 light years away in just 80 days, according to a report in today's New Scientist magazine.

The theoretical engine works by creating an intense magnetic field that, according to ideas first developed by the late scientist Burkhard Heim in the 1950s, would produce a gravitational field and result in thrust for a spacecraft.

[kiwipat]

End-of-Hiatus Bump.....Here’s hoping that over the rest of the season we learn something about how Flight 815, the Black Rock, the Nigerian beechcraft, Desmond’s yacht and Danielle’s boat actually arrived on the island :pray:

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7162/worldmap3h3ft.th.gif (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldmap3h3ft.gif)

The Vile Vortices have been around since time immemorial
DHARMA are just the new kids on the block

[LostInWilderness]

We know for a fact the drug plane took off in Africa.

[boonian androphile]

And ended up half-way around the world. Tough to do with one man flying (assuming that Eko's unfortunate brother died quickly)---unless the one man had a little help in the way of a short cut.:wizard:

[LostHorizon]

I do think that the latest episode gives yet even more evidence to the multiple " Vile Vorticie " theory, without any doubt now...Don't you agree?
:)

http://www.crystalinks.com/devilstrimap.jpg

[jmb3rg3r]

And ended up half-way around the world. Tough to do with one man flying
Plane that size couldn't make it to the South Pacific on a fuel basis, even if the pilot could....

[lostchild]

Wait a second though, how again do we know this island is definately in the South Pacific. Could it not be in the Indian Ocean?

If our Island was in the indian ocean then the Plane from Nigeria could get to our Island.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Definately this theory explains the plane. Do you think Smokey carries the plane down?

[jmb3rg3r]

Wait a second though, how again do we know this island is definately in the South Pacific. Could it not be in the Indian Ocean?

I think during the Revelations episode last night they said "South Pacific." The official Web site also says it's a Pacific Island (http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/about.html). However, the point of the Island's location is certainly up for debate.

[LostInWilderness]

The drug plane gets all shot up on take-off. I think it's likely that the plane crashes from the damage from those bullets, and therefore was never refueled and never got very far. If that's true, somehow the plane traveled from Nigeria to the island in a very short hop.

[lostmio]

it's likely that the plane crashes from the damage from those bullets, and therefore was never refueled and never got very far. If that's true, somehow the plane traveled from Nigeria to the island in a very short hop.

Carrying Yemi supports this. Whether he was dead or dying, it doesn't make sense that they kept him on board thru the multiple fuel stops needed to get to the South Pacific.

[SteveB]

What evidence do we have that the turbulence started at 40,000 feet? (Sorry, haven't seen all of the start of season 1).
Since physics has defined how far above the ground the plane could have been at each moment, perhaps the starting height is wrong. Is it not possible that the altitude metre was broken? Just like the other instruments?

[kiwipat]

We're going on what Jack said in Pilot Part I:

“We must have been at about 40,000 feet when it happened. Hit an air pocket. Dropped, maybe, 200 feet. The turbulence was: I blacked out”

Kate in response:

“I didn't. I saw the whole thing. I knew that the tail was gone, but I couldn't bring myself to look back. And then the, the front of the plane broke off”

Interestingly the background element used in the scene where the tail breaks off contains actual aerial shots taken from an airliner at 35,000 ft over the Pacific (info from The Lost Chronicles)....so I think the breakup was definitely meant to be conveyed as a high altitude one.

[lostmio]

Kate in response:
“I didn't. I saw the whole thing. I knew that the tail was gone, but I couldn't bring myself to look back. And then the, the front of the plane broke off”

She said the back of the plane broke off.

Interestingly the background element used in the scene where the tail breaks off contains actual aerial shots taken from an airliner at 35,000 ft over the Pacific (info from The Lost Chronicles)....so I think the breakup was definitely meant to be conveyed as a high altitude one.
Putting aside the validity of Lost Chronicles as a source, the idea that 23 people would have survived a 6+ mile drop into the ocean strains suspension of disbelief too far for me.
Your mileage may vary.

[yung23]

Dropped, maybe, 200 feet. The turbulence was...


this sounds like the plane could have been "stepping"
as someone posted the EMF could probaly do..
(and it wasnt me this time)


meaning the plane may have dropped 200 feet, slowed, dropped another 200 feet, slowed..
like turbulance all the way down to the point where they could survive on impact..

and with remote viewing of each future step.. they could compensate and control it..

[LostViking]

and with remote viewing of each future step.. they could compensate and control it..

:D :D

[lostmio]

meaning the plane may have dropped 200 feet, slowed, dropped another 200 feet, slowed..
like turbulance all the way down to the point where they could survive on impact..

and with remote viewing of each future step.. they could compensate and control it..

I'm missing something - based upon what I've read about remote viewing as psychic phenomena, no way would remote viewing control a plane or machine of any sort.
Further, the drop 200 feet, slow, then drop 200 feet again, slow again makes no sense, either in reality nor what we were shown in the plane scenes. There was one drop, then violent turbulence. No more drops.

[Badger]

And ended up half-way around the world. Tough to do with one man flying (assuming that Eko's unfortunate brother died quickly)---unless the one man had a little help in the way of a short cut

Plane that size couldn't make it to the South Pacific on a fuel basis, even if the pilot could....

A lot of misconceptions and ignorance surrounding the capabilities of the Twin Beech depicted on Lost on this forum. It's not at all implausible and most certainly not impossible for even a single person to fly an aircraft, such as the one depicted on Lost, from Nigeria to the South Pacific (or to/from anywhere else for that matter). It's been done many times. In fact, solo around the world flights occur on average about twice a year.

Here are a few examples:

1927- Charles Lindbergh made the first solo non-stop transatlantic flight in a single engine aircraft.

1932 - Amelia Earhart made only the second non-stop solo transatlantic flight. Also in a single engine aircraft.

1935 - Amelia Earhart became the first woman to make a solo long-distance flight over the Pacific Ocean, flying from Honolulu, Hawaii, to San Francisco, California.

1937 Amelia Earhart attempted the ill-fated around the world flight, although not alone, in a twin engine aircraft not unlike the Twin Beech depicted on Lost.

1971 - Sheila Scott was the first British pilot to fly around the world, solo. She was also the first person (man or woman) to fly over the North pole in a light aircraft. In her 34,000 mile flight she flew from the Equator, over the North pole and back to the Equator. This was in a Piper Aztec, a twin engine aircraft much smaller than even the Twin Beech depicted on Lost.

1976 - Don Taylor, a guy most of you have probably never heard of, became the first person to fly his own amateur built aircraft around the world, solo. The flight began and ended in Oshkosh Wisconsin.

Below are the stops along the way. Remember, this was a single-engine, homebuilt aircraft (A Thorp T-18 for those who are interested).

Photo:

http://www.wingnet.org/rtw/pix/r006np4.jpg

Departed Oshkosh, WI,
Burlington, VT
Moncton, Canada
Goose Bay, Labrador
Narssarssuaq, Greenland
Keflavik, Iceland
Leeds-Bradford, England
Venice, Italy
Athens, Greece
Elazig, Turkey
Tehran, Iran
Zahedan, Iran
Karachi, Palistan
Ahmadabad, India
Nugpur, India
Calcutta, India
Bangkok, Thailand
Kula Lumpur, Malaysia
Kuching, Malaysia
Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia
Zamboanga, Philippines
Davaq, Philippines
Yap Island
Guam
Truk Island
Ponape Island
Wake Island
Midway Island
Adak, AK
Cold Bay, AK
Anchorage, AK
Fairbanks, AK
White Horse, Canada
Fort Saint John, Canada
Edmonton, Canada
Minot, ND
Arrived Oshkosh, WI

Now, does anyone still think it's unlikely, if not impossible, to fly a Twin Beech from Nigeria to the South Pacific?... I didn't think so.

[kiwipat]

She said the back of the plane broke off

LM She said "....And then the, the front of the plane broke off”

Furthermore, I doubt The Lost Chronicles would get away with calling itself "The Official Companion Book" if it made up production facts.

I do however agree that having your plane break up around you at c.40,000 ft and surviving is ridiculous in the real world - hence the need for some kind of "cushion".... either a portal acting like a "slide", or perhaps some kind of EM tractor beam, or even nanobots!

[LostViking]

Badger,

Thanks for posting all that info on small planes. You obviously have more info on planes than most of us. Are you saying a beachcraft without refueling (and damaged) could have made it from nigeria to the south pacific?

I am curious because Charlie made a point of it to eko. But he remained silent.

[kiwipat]

It's not at all implausible and most certainly not impossible for even a single person to fly an aircraft, such as the one depicted on Lost, from Nigeria to the South Pacific
Possible but not practical or smart for drug smugglers posing as African priests/missionaries....Can you imagine how suspicious they would look to authorities outside Africa?

The most likely scenario is that they were engaged in short hops to areas within Africa where christian missionary work is not uncommon....my guess is that they were ultimately trying to get to the north African Mediterranean Coast where the booty would have been transferred to another carrier for smuggling into Europe, and then the US.

Of course this meant that they had the misfortune of having to fly over the Sahara vortex.....

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7162/worldmap3h3ft.th.gif (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldmap3h3ft.gif)

The Vile Vortices have been around since time immemorial
DHARMA are just the new kids on the block

[LostHorizon]

A lot of misconceptions and ignorance surrounding the capabilities of the Twin Beech depicted on Lost on this forum. It's not at all implausible and most certainly not impossible for even a single person to fly an aircraft, such as the one depicted on Lost, from Nigeria to the South Pacific (or to/from anywhere else for that matter). It's been done many times. In fact, solo around the world flights occur on average about twice a year.


Below are the stops along the way. Remember, this was a single-engine, homebuilt aircraft (A Thorp T-18 for those who are interested).

Photo:

http://www.wingnet.org/rtw/pix/r006np4.jpg

Departed Oshkosh, WI,
Burlington, VT
Moncton, Canada
Goose Bay, Labrador
Narssarssuaq, Greenland
Keflavik, Iceland
Leeds-Bradford, England
Venice, Italy
Athens, Greece
Elazig, Turkey
Tehran, Iran
Zahedan, Iran
Karachi, Palistan
Ahmadabad, India
Nugpur, India
Calcutta, India
Bangkok, Thailand
Kula Lumpur, Malaysia
Kuching, Malaysia
Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia
Zamboanga, Philippines
Davaq, Philippines
Yap Island
Guam
Truk Island
Ponape Island
Wake Island
Midway Island
Adak, AK
Cold Bay, AK
Anchorage, AK
Fairbanks, AK
White Horse, Canada
Fort Saint John, Canada
Edmonton, Canada
Minot, ND
Arrived Oshkosh, WI

Now, does anyone still think it's unlikely, if not impossible, to fly a Twin Beech from Nigeria to the South Pacific?... I didn't think so.

Badger,the Point is......
It's very unlikely, if not impossible to fly a Twin Beech plane from Nigeria to a Lost Island ( if that was indeed the destination ) in the south Pacific without refueling stops.....

:)

[LostInWilderness]

Did you need to quote all that to make that point, or did you just want to read it again? ;)

[LostHorizon]

Did you need to quote all that to make that point, or did you just want to read it again? ;)

No, not at all, but just to set up my reply.... :)

[jmb3rg3r]

I'm missing something - based upon what I've read about remote viewing as psychic phenomena, no way would remote viewing control a plane or machine of any sort.

What you're missing is that folks on Lost message boards, not just this one, tend to use "remote viewing" to mean whatever random thing they are talking about at any given moment. :D

[soupgalaxy]

i was watching a special on the triangle the other night, and their saying methane gases in the ocean could've been responsible.

[Badger]

Of course they would have had to refuel. I never claimed they wouldn't have had to. The point is: the flight is within the realm of possibility without a need for some bizarre, otherwordly, paranormal, supernatural, sci-fi or even pseudo- scientific explanation. That is all.

By the way, I also considered the possibility of additional, onboard, extended range fuel tanks but I didn't see any so I think it's safe to discount that possibility. This leaves only two explanations: mine or the bizarre. Take your pick.

[LostHorizon]

Of course they would have had to refuel. I never claimed they wouldn't have had to. The point is: the flight is within the realm of possibility without a need for some bizarre, otherwordly, paranormal, supernatural, sci-fi or even pseudo- scientific explanation. That is all.

By the way, I also considered the possibility of additional, onboard, extended range fuel tanks but I didn't see any so I think it's safe to discount that possibility. This leaves only two explanations: mine or the bizarre. Take your pick.

Since the chance of the plane refueling and ending up at a remote destination is highly remote,
I'll take the Bizarre, thank you.
This is Lost after all.
:)

[lostmio]

What you're missing is that folks on Lost message boards, not just this one, tend to use "remote viewing" to mean whatever random thing they are talking about at any given moment. :D

I think you're right - the phrase is being bandied about willy-nilly.
thanks

[lostmio]

It's not at all implausible and most certainly not impossible

But it's completely illogical...

[The Boognish]

Hi all. I've read this bored for awhile now but this is my first time posting so please bear with me... I'm not even sure if this is the appropriate forum to post in.

Anyway, I was reading about the vortex theory for the first time the other day in Yung23's "Fitting it all into one theory" (which was pretty sweet) and I had an idea. There were some older posts I came across that talked about how it didn't make any sense that flight 815 crashed while it was still light out given how long they were in the air and the time of departure. And then I thought that this could be further evidence that flight 815 isn't actually on some island around Fiji, which is were they think they are, but has actually been transported to some "neutral" island in a different time zone/location as was discussed in the vortex theory.

Sorry if this has been brought up before or if I've misunderstood the vortex theory. Just wanted to see what every one thought.

[LostHorizon]

The Boognish...... Please refer to the old
another plus for the Bermuda Triangle theory (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7504) over in Theories and Speculation section , You will get more comments regarding Vorticie Theory there than over here....

:)

[LostInWilderness]

Welcome to the board The Boognish. Please read the welcome forum and have fun.

I merged this into the Bermuda triangle theory that was mentioned.

[jmb3rg3r]

Now, does anyone still think it's unlikely, if not impossible, to fly a Twin Beech from Nigeria to the South Pacific?... I didn't think so.

Long range flights require special preparations for the ranges involved.

The normal range of a fairly new and well-maintained twin-engine Beech is less than 8,000 miles, and I presume the Nigerian mission was not flying a top of the line aircraft.

It's nearly 10,000 miles from Laos, Nigeria, to Syndey, plus the 1,000 plus miles traveled by Flight 815 before it crashed.

It's not impossible. It's highly implausible.

[Badger]

They ceased production of the Twin Beech in 1969 having been built from 1937 to 1969. The one Locke saw in his dream was built in 1957. It is owned by Kamaka Air, Inc., Honolulu Hawaii (Registration number N231H).

Max range is ~1,800 nm with full fuel (2,081 Statute miles). Realistically, given their cargo and a crew of two it would be much less. Therefore refueling would have been necessary, not to mention overflight permissions and other necessities.

[yung23]

I still think this is the best thread on the boards.
plus the wrinkle in time one.

i forgot how long we've had this info in front of us.

[jaystao]

I shied away from it mostly. I dunno why. I tried not to completely go for something that was too easy to believe, like magic. However deep down I knew it would probably turn out to be so. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Did the island bring the plane to it because in the future it knew Echo needed reconciliation? Or did the plane come first and simply drew Echo in after (maybe following from the desire of his dieing brother). Vile vortices meets ID/ego manifestation - two of the oldest theories alive and well, once again! Viva la Vortices!

[yung23]

totally unrelated to lost. but the egg always comes first. ;P

and I still want to wrap the vortices around a sphere..

almost as done by kiwi..

http://www.viewzone.com/vortex.gif

do you think the fact there are TWELVE votices is odd ?

thats twice the number of hatches we have.... just saying.

each hatch has a partner theme...

[LostHorizon]

If Yungs Theory is correct, does Dharma actually possess the level of Technology to actually control Vortice portals, or do you think they just simply monitor them?

[island_maverick]

This aspect is really bugging me. I am trying to do some research to help me ease my mind.

Can entry/exit be controlled, or is it a lot down to timing/luck.

The fact that the losties were clearly chosen, makes you think it is at least the latter, if it proves too much of a leap to think it is controlled.

[yung23]

maybe the control is simply knowing the timing of it all.

I'm thinking an eclipse here, maybe involving sirius the dog star,
the six constellations and the stations named after them...


Cygnus_the Swan station
Electromagnetic Research Initiative


Sagitta_the Arrow station


Orion
(MAYBE THE LINE although very simple = ORIONS BELT ?) and a shark sure fits the hunter profile.
( i do seem to recall a statement by tptb that it wasnt supposed to be so visible, so this one may be null and void as is)



Corvus*_The crow_
(this constellation may also be closer related to a device used to board ships at war, Black rock type ships)
possibly the device represents the Accelerated Remote Viewing Training Facility

Crater_goblet
(perhaps Cryogenics Development Imperative) OR Juxtapositional Eugenics Development Institute, based on the look of a goblet in the middle, the two people thing)


Ophiuchus_medicine
(Life extension?)

these are all GUESSES .

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4311/dharmalogos6qz.jpg



see the thread, six constellations, maybe its time to merge this thread into the "combo theory"

edit : not that i will merge the threads, just try to connect them theory wise.

[Lost_RuNNeR]

Wow. This theory has definitely made my top 3...

It also reminds me of the 'Dharma project disclosure' post, only more professional, and more likely...

[bv_bv63]

Very very interesting. Any printed material (books, magazines, etc) on these phenomem? I'm especially interested in the one mentioned on page 5, "TTV".

Thanks

[kiwipat]

bv, Unfortunately I've yet to come across any printed information on the TVV.

Amongst the few links that have anything substantial to say on the matter there is this page (http://www.deepinfo.com/WorldGrid.htm) on the Vortices, and this one (http://users.pandora.be/wouterhagens/biogeometry/detailsgrid_uk.html) on the Planetary Grid System (the EM grid network most associated with the Vortices). If you come across anything else of interest or relevance to Lost - either on or offline - by all means post it!

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7162/worldmap3h3ft.th.gif (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldmap3h3ft.gif)

The Vile Vortices have been around since time immemorial
DHARMA are just the new kids on the block

[LostHorizon]

I wonder if Hurley's joking comment on that Glenn Miller Song at the end of last weeks's episode , about the signal being from "any time" has any real connection to Vorticie theory?
Is there anything in the literature regarding electro-magnetic radio waves, and how vortices effect them?

The Black Rock Radio tower signal ( Danielle ) and the Glenn Miller song were on different frequencies , but seem to be the only ones detected on Sayid's retrofitted radio. If they were really using a true working short wave radio, they should have gotten more working frequencies than those.

:confused:

[badboy]

Do you guys have a timescale for the apparent opening of this portal/bermuda triangle style thing that allowed the losties to get where they are now, cos I had this thought about the SW radio music:

Music is from 1940's, Sam Toomey (Hurley's crazy friends mate) and Crazy Dude were listening for signals in the Pacific during WW2 (1939-1945) and this is when we know of the numbers first appearing as a radio transmission. Could the magnetic properties of the island be so strong that radio signals are perfectly trapped in the whateversphere of the island, and the occasional 'portal openings' let these signals out, as well as letting other signals in. So if the last 'portal opening' was in the 1940's it would make sense, as it allowed Sam Toomeys numbers transmission to briefly escape while letting the moonlight serenade transmission in.

Just a thought

[island_maverick]

Radio waves trapped. Let out/in occasionally. Cool idea, badboy.

[kiwipat]

Interesting theory bb!

Wouldn’t it be cool if the Miller tune was “piped in” when the Bermuda vortice opened on Dec 5 1945 - the date of the infamous Flight 19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_19#Bermuda_Triangle_connection) incident when five navy torpedo bombers vanished in the region....

On Lenny and Sam, I think they picked up the numbers transmission sometime in the late 1980's see cubit's timeline (http://lost.cubit.net/timeline.php)

Still...that's not to say that the song hasn't been bouncing around the tessaract for a lot longer...

[soup]

Music is from 1940's, Sam Toomey (Hurley's crazy friends mate) and Crazy Dude were listening for signals in the Pacific during WW2 (1939-1945)

I didn't think the CRAZY DUDE or Sam's wife were old enough to be involved with WW2. I think they were in the military, but it was later on. I haven't seen any indication on when they served.

[yung23]

Radio waves trapped. Let out/in occasionally. Cool idea, badboy.


we kinda have a particle in a box happening here...

[spiderwoman]

I know I really should read the whole of this thread and I can guarentee my post here will be squashed through unthorough background, but in early posts, references to lord of the flies were argued (Is there a connection, no connection)....I believe someone...i think it may have been Sawyer made a comment in an early episode of series 2, possibly late series on, something alongthe lines of 'boy its like lord of the flies down here'...I know this isnt an exact qote and I may have even got the character wrong...But In my opinion the references to this infamous book are too obvious to ignore....


Hell, im new here. Im sorry If my post was entirely irrelevant :S

[island_maverick]

Hi spiderwoman, welcome to the boards. A little irrelevance never hurt anybody.....;)

The subject to which you refer has been discussed at length before. There are various links to books and music in Lost, LOTF being just one.

Try using the search function to track down such things, you may find some answers are already on here.

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/search.php (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/search.php)

The boolean search option works well.

mav.

[cruelplace]

well, you could make it difficult by saying they went to an alternate earth, or a possibility that is more in line with occam's razor is that the pilots were conspirators in the crash and flew the plane low enough for a controlled break-up. Why they died? Could've been a mistake, because they knew too much, or they really didn't die at all. Any of these is an easier to believe story than the alternate reality.

[bigmouth]

spiderwoman: Yes, that was me. I'd forgotten that particular argument spilled onto this thread. Max and I rarely saw eye to eye on anything. Strange thing is, I feel like we've BOTH been vindicated by subsequent events. Anyway, in case anyone's interested, here's my original thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=340) re Lord of the Flies. My very first Lost theory, ever!

[samthegame]

Amazing Post Dude....How da hell did you think of all this....

[bv_bv63]

Just found this book that might have some of this stuff in it:

"Anti-Gravity and the World Grid " by David Hatcher Childress.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932813038/qid=1140235640/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2704476-5194532?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932813038/qid=1140235640/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2704476-5194532?s=books&v=glance&n=283155)

I haven't seen what's inside it, but it has something to do with this theory. I just ordered it from the library and see if it's any good once I get it.

[Others]

Note: The following 4 posts were originally on The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory thread.

Posted: 6/9/05 7:22 pm by kiwipat
The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

Not a new theory, merely an attempt to reignite interest in and consolidate one of the more credible theories on this board.

Note: The real credit for this theory must go to LostHorizon who first broached it, and Coyote1066....ohh and a guy call Ivan T. Sanderson.

In 1972 Sanderson postulated that there were 12 triangular areas or ‘Vile Vortices’ placed at equal distances around the world where various anomalies occur and where ships and airplanes mysteriously vanish without a trace.

The most famous of these is of course the Bermuda Triangle; the second most famous is the Devil’s Sea east of Japan.

These and another 8 triangles/vortices are laid out in the thumbnail map below (click to view):

http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/2949/vorticesmap2eq.th.gif (http://img342.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vorticesmap2eq.gif)

Sanderson also included an Antarctic vortex and an Arctic vortex to make up the 12.

Now...add to this notion the idea of a ‘neutral’ island located somewhere in the central Pacific - some ‘3 days out of Tahiti’ - an island that is a central dumping ground, a ‘middle of the spiders web’ if you will (thank you Coyote), and you have the theory in its latest incarnation as applied to our Lostaways.

Here’s how things have panned out under the theory so far:

Oceanic 815 enroute from Sydney to LA passed through the ‘Loyalty Islands’ vortex and was ported to the neutral island,

Danielle’s expedition was shipwrecked on the neutral island,

The Beechcraft carrying the Nigerian smugglers passed through the ‘Algerian’ (Saharan) vortex just north of Nigeria and was ported to the neutral island,

The Black Rock embarking Mozambique with slaves aboard passed through the ‘Zimbabwe’ vortex just off the coast of the country and was ported to the neutral island (hence its anomalous position high and dry inland),

& the polar bear was ‘drawn’ through the Arctic vortex :rolleyes

The theory also poses many interesting questions e.g. Could those mysterious island tides have something to do with the porting of objects to the island. i.e. Is the island literally being lifted or pushed down everytime something is ported?....and (more obviously) Could the mysterious hatched installation be part of some super-secret experiment by some ‘shadowy organisation’ to harness the forces of the vortices?.

Personally I find the TVV theory as applied to our Lostaways the most compelling theory yet. In fact it explains so much I can literally hear the writers sharpening their knives in the background ready to cut it down next season :D

P.S. Other things I suspect: Locke’s father appears to be a well travelled individual to many exotic locations - perhaps he knows of the Vile Vortices and is part of the effort to exploit them. The boat people in the season’s finale are ‘hired goons’ of the ‘shadowy organisation’ and are charged with making sure no one leaves the island. The organisation is particularly interested in Walt because it recognizes he has the personal ability to port/manifest objects much like the vortices can.

------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 6/10/05 12:04 am by Jays tao
Re: The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

Good to see you are still up and running fellow kiwipat.



I like this one.

------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 6/10/05 3:20 am by hg
Re: The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

I like this idea. I'm not well versed in the theories of Mr. Sanderson; can you give us a brief explanation based on (pseudo)science on how this portation takes place. Also, what are the physical properties of this neutral island and it's significance. I personally, after watching the lame Exudus fiasco, am of the belief that this is all a VR game; the airport is some theme park and they are all partaking in a VR Survivor: Oceanic-air experience.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is."
Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut

------------------------------------------------------------

Posted: 6/10/05 3:36 pm by kiwipat
Re: The Twelve Vile Vortices (TVV) Theory

Well hg if it was instead named ‘Survivor: Bermuda Triangle’ it would certainly link your theory to this one :D Haven’t thought much about the neutral island yet - but here’s a bit about Sanderson:

As I understand it Sanderson was a major proponent of the idea that there exists a natural worldwide electromagnetic grid upon which objects can ‘ride’ the flowing currents of energy (ie grid lines) from one point to another.

Basically if an object is in the right place (a vortex) at the right time an electro-magnetic disturbance will transform the physical nature of the object into a ‘higher level of vibration', render it invisible, and allow it to shift with the natural energy currents to another place.

It is a notion very closely tied to the Philadelphia Experiment where allegedly an artificial device was used to transform a ship for transport across a grid line from Norfolk, Virginia to Philadelphia. Spookily Sanderson was a close friend of Dr. Morris Jessup - a key figure in the whole Philadelphia Experiment episode :eek

Also of interest: Sanderson apparently thought that the trigger for vortices to open had something to do with the hot and cold ocean currents crossing each other at the vortex points :rolleyes

Jays: Yes its obvious to me at least that someone or something has an interest in Walt because of his special powers. I think that just as the Vortic Web has the ability to port objects on a large scale - boats and planes, Walt has the ability to port objects on a smaller more modest scale ala the bird in his back-story and probably the polar bear. Walt may somehow be ‘plugged’ into the worldwide grid and this would be of great interest to his captors.

Who put the straw in strawberry?
Answer nature did
Who put the ape in apricot?
Answer nature did
Who put the freak in vortex?

Answer...
There is no Freak in Vortex


That is what I have been triing so say there is no freakin Vortex.

[yung23]

special on right now.. channel 03 in T.O

global

legends and lore....

columbus saw a comet crash into the water, and since then... the bermuda triangle has been known of.

eta, its over now.

[island_maverick]

and the sun was seen to rise at night....?

[yung23]

mav, was that in the special ?

did you catch it ?

[bv_bv63]

I'm just reading some of the stuff on this theory and this is some amazing stuff.

[island_maverick]

mav, was that in the special ?

did you catch it ?

I didn't see the special (not on in UK)

I was just speculating....:)

[lost-_-]

Um...

I think the bermuda triangle theory is definitely out.

It has been scientifically proven that the bermuda triangle is nothing more than a crack in the earth's crust, which has allowed methane gas to seep up to the surface. This makes the water less dense - and therefore the ships no longer have sufficient bouyancey to stay afloat. The aeroplanes that have crashed in the bermuda triangle is caused by the methane gas (which is lighter than air) rises into the atmosphere and the same problem occurs.

The writers of lost are not 3rd graders. They are obviously extremely intelligent, and would not base their entire show about something that was scientifically DISproven years ago.

[LostHorizon]

Here (http://afriamer.ameranet.com/LeyLinesandVoticesContinue.html) is a site with some new information connecting Ley Lines with Vorticies.
The guy, Antonio Mark McCoy Sr. sounds like a Crackpot, but some of his theories are interesting, especially the ones concerning the Icosahedron Earth Crystal, Global Ley lines coordinates and Vorticie Locations, and their relationship to the well known "Becker-Hagens" Grid Map.

[Kinish]

new here just didnt feel like reading 50+ pages of posts but i read the original post

if you ever have read TimeLine by michael crichton it talks about the whole quantum theory and the ability of timeshifting...is that basically what the whole tvv theory talks about? or can do?

[LostHorizon]

new here just didnt feel like reading 50+ pages of posts but i read the original post

if you ever have read TimeLine by michael crichton it talks about the whole quantum theory and the ability of timeshifting...is that basically what the whole tvv theory talks about? or can do?

No.
When you are feeling up to it, please read the + pages of posts on this thread concerning Vile Vortice Theory.
:)

[yung23]

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/51707.html

losthorizon you got me going..

these guys seem to be discussing real math.



The way I think of steradians is that they are the surface area on the
unit sphere (sphere of radius 1) that the solid angle would cut out of
the surface. Thus, there are 4*pi steradians in the entire surface of
the sphere.


just thinking about how it says cut out... and the whole triangle thing on danielles map around the islet. (! :))

vile vortice theory hint ?

seems very non-euclidan geometry.

from this link..http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/51707.html
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/sets/college_non_euclid.html

there seems to be something here.
I can picture the sphere as i read it, basically a polygon sphere.

http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/images/noneuclid.gif

thats it I want more diagrams of this stuff.


I have seen this already in my ventures into relativity and quantum theories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidian_geometry


creative laymens take.. (after reading about non-euclidian parallel lines near the equator)

these guys are stuck in a parallel universe, one attached and reflected from a vile vortice.
(I will try to find the maps and stuff and make some pretty pictures.)

and Neil, that is even what I had guessed !


ETA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_geometry

this is related, and it just looks neat.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/2450/605pxhyperspacetiling373nb.png

ETA

Escher again !

http://www.mcescher.com/Gallery/recogn-bmp/LW434.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3443/lw4360ur.jpg

[Kinish]

No.
When you are feeling up to it, please read the + pages of posts on this thread concerning Vile Vortice Theory.
:)

but im lazy...i swear its gotta be close...

[Millhouse]

[quote=bigmouth]Max, there are many more similarities than that:

First, they are marooned by a plane crash. That right there points to Lord of the Flies, not Gilligan's Island.

Fourth, there is a Piggy (i.e., Hurley) as well as wild boars (reportedly).

quote]

wild boars on an island? a plane crash? pretty standard fair for any marooned/castaway drama.

[LostHorizon]

Great work Yung!
Excellent Theory, but unfortunately , it may well go way over the heads of the average LOST viewer...:ImLost:



"these guys are stuck in a parallel universe, one attached and reflected from a vile vortice."

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/2450/605pxhyperspacetiling373nb.png

Interesting way you put it, a "parallel universe - one that is attached and reflected from a Vile Vorticie"....

.......Shades of LAND OF THE LOST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_Lost_(1974_television_series))?
How soon before we find Pylons ( and Dinosaurs ) on the Island?

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/1/1d/180px-Land_of_the_Lost_(1974)_-_Grumpy_and_a_Pylon.jpg

:p

[yung23]

some geometry and math schooling. (it was for me too)

THESE LINKS HAVE LOTS TO DO WITH LOST.
and its nice to have them all in one place.

postulate/ axiom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postulate)
parallel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_%28geometry%29)
Parallel postulate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_postulate)
Euclidian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidian)
non-euclidian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry)
ellipse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse)
spherical geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_geometry)
Hilbert space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert_space)
topography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topography)
vector spatial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_%28spatial%29)
Probability_vector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_vector)
quantum mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics)
QFD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_field_theory)
QCD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics)
Quantum_numbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_numbers)




researching vile vortices ideas I have developed this "Hanso's Goal" theory.



but first….

macro scale objects were first used to describe the universe.
ellipses played a large part in eluding past science & theory advancements.
once the ellipse was agreed on, science took off.
Einstein developed his general relativity at this time.
then things slowed down once they got to the micro-scale of things.
the same rules of attraction did not apply.
later heisenburg and schrodinger stepped in and we go sky high from there.
Hanso is well beyond all of them.


The following material is part of the reason we now have Quantum Mechanics at all.

once the great minds understood space was curved things began to unravel toward quantum ideas.

my idea here BRIEFLY, is that Hanso created a self contained manifold, another world opposite ours.

I suggest you read all the links to understand what I am saying.


READ THIS ONE FIRST
http://cs.unm.edu/~joel/NonEuclid/noneuclidean.html


1.2 Spherical Geometry:
non-Euclidean Geometry is any geometry that is different from Euclidean Geometry. One of the most useful non-Euclidean geometries is Spherical Geometry which describes the surface of a sphere.
Spherical Geometry is used by pilots and ship captains as they navigate around the world. Working in Spherical Geometry has some non intuitive results. For example, did you know that the shortest flying distance from Florida to the Philippine Islands is a path across Alaska? The Philippines are South of Florida - why is flying North to Alaska a short-cut? The answer is that Florida, Alaska, and the Philippines are collinear locations in Spherical Geometry (they lie on a "Great Circle"). Another odd property of Spherical Geometry is that the sum of the angles of a triangle is always greater then 180°. Small triangles, like ones drawn on a football field have very, very close to 180°. Big triangles, however, (like the triangle with veracities: New York, L.A. and Tampa) have significantly more than 180°. For a more information on Spherical Geometry, see "The Geometry of the Sphere" (http://math.rice.edu/~pcmi/sphere/) by John C. Polking.


http://math.rice.edu/~pcmi/sphere/


OUR GLOBE = NON_EUCLIDIAN GEOMETRY





Hyperbolic Geometry also has practical aspects such as orbit prediction of objects within intense gradational fields.
Hyperbolic Geometry is used in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and Curved Hyperspace.

The NonEuclid software is a simulation of a non-Euclidean Geometry called Hyperbolic Geometry.
Hyperbolic Geometry is a "curved" space, and plays an important role in Einstein's General theory of Relativity.
Hyperbolic Geometry is also has many applications within the field of Topology. (hence orbit prediction^)

http://www.siggraph.org/education/materials/HyperVis/vised/VisTech/Techniques/v2dafieldtopology.html


field topology added to my earlier "AMRMHD days" mentioning of CNC machines. computerized numerical control.
and you have the means to move particles about, like plasma in a field.

this fits in with smokey obviously ^


______

Vector field

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/88/Vectorfield_jaredwf.png/333px-Vectorfield_jaredwf.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vectorfield_jaredwf.png) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vectorfield_jaredwf.png)
Vector field given by vectors of the form (-y, x)


In mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics) a vector field is a construction in vector calculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_calculus) which associates a vector (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_%28spatial%29) to every point in a Euclidean space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_space).
(this may be the important part..)
Vector fields are often used in physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics) to model for example the speed and direction of a moving fluid throughout space, or the strength and direction of some force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force), such as the magnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field) or gravitational (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) force, as it changes from point to point.
In the rigorous mathematical treatment, (tangent) vector fields are defined on manifolds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold) as sections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_bundle) of the manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold)'s tangent bundle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangent_bundle).

because of this...

...Hilbert space

In mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics), a Hilbert space is a generalization of Euclidean space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_space) which is not restricted to finite dimensions. Thus it is an inner product space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_product_space), which means that it has notions of distance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance) and of angle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle) (especially the notion of orthogonality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogonality) or perpendicularity). Moreover, it satisfies a more technical completeness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_space) requirement which ensures that limits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit) exist when expected, which facilitates various definitions from calculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus). Hilbert spaces provide a context with which to formalize and generalize the concepts of the Fourier series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_series) in terms of arbitrary orthogonal polynomials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogonal_polynomials) and of the Fourier transform (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform), which are central concepts from functional analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_analysis).
Hilbert spaces are of crucial importance in the mathematical formulation of quantum mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics).





"Do you know Hilbert? No? Then what are you doing in his space?"






Manifold


For other meanings of this term, see Manifold (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_%28disambiguation%29). http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a3/Triangle_on_globe.jpg/300px-Triangle_on_globe.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Triangle_on_globe.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Triangle_on_globe.jpg)
On a sphere, the sum of the angles of a triangle is not equal to 180°. A sphere is not an Euclidean space. However, locally, the laws of the Euclidean geometry are good approximations. In a small triangle on the face of the earth, the sum of the angles is very nearly 180°. A sphere can be represented by a collection of two dimensional maps, therefore a sphere is a manifold.


In mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics), a manifold is a space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_space) which, in a close-up view, resembles the familiar spaces encountered in Euclidean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean) geometry, but which may have a more complicated structure when viewed as a whole. A sphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphere), an idealized version of the surface of the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth), is a manifold. Locally the Earth seems to be flat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatness) — but viewed as a whole it is round. A manifold can be constructed by "gluing" separate Euclidean spaces together; for example, a world map can be obtained by gluing many maps of local regions together.
Another example of a manifold is a circle. A small piece of a circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle) appears to be like a slightly-bent portion of a straight line segment, but overall the circle and the segment are different one-dimensional manifolds. A circle can be formed by bending a straight line segment and gluing the ends together. The surface of a sphere and the surface of a torus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus) are examples of two-dimensional manifolds. Manifolds are important objects in mathematics and physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics) because they allow more complicated structures to be expressed and understood in terms of the well-understood properties of simpler spaces.
Additional structures are often defined on manifolds. Examples of manifolds with additional structure include differentiable manifolds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiable_manifolds) on which one can do calculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus), symplectic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symplectic) manifolds which serve as the phase space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space) in classical mechanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics), and four-dimensional pseudo-Riemannian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Riemannian) manifolds which model space-time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time) in general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity).
A technical mathematical definition of a manifold is given below. To fully understand the mathematics behind manifolds it will be necessary to know elementary concepts regarding sets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_%28mathematics%29) and functions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_%28mathematics%29), and it may also be helpful to have a working knowledge of calculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus) andtopology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology)....










sets.
In mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics), a set can be thought of as any collection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collection) of distinct things considered as a whole. Though a simple idea, it is nevertheless one of the most important and fundamental concepts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concept) in modern mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics), and the study of the structure of possible sets, set theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory), is quite rich.
Set theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory), having only been invented at the end of the 19th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_century), is now a ubiquitous part of mathematics education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_education), being introduced as early as primary school (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_school). It is the language in which modern mathematics is described. Set theory can be viewed as the foundation upon which nearly all of mathematics can be built and the source from which nearly all mathematics can be derived.



I was right but wrong.
it was premature, I knew the idea but not the correct space.

Hilbert space is euclidian.. but so is this, and this fits even better.

TPTB did say they would use pseudo science to explain lost..

( I will simply post the wiki info, as always.
I think the theory is easy to see and will grow from here)


we have alwasy thought of this place being separate from the world, like a dark city theme..
TZ theme, the kid that wished his town away... etc

they are isolated, but may still receive newbies.



SPECULATION :based on how cool this sounds.
and we have always spoken of Lorentz attractors etc.
spirals...




Hanso may have created a self-contained....


Pseudo-Riemannian manifold

In differential geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_geometry), a pseudo-Riemannian manifold (also called a semi-Riemannian manifold) is a generalization of a Riemannian manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemannian_manifold). The key difference between the two is that on a pseudo-Riemannian manifold the metric tensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_tensor) need not be positive-definite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive-definite). Instead a weaker condition of nondegeneracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondegenerate) is imposed.
Arguably, the most important type is pseudo-Riemannian manifold is a Lorentzian manifold. Lorentzian manifolds occur in the general theory of relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_theory_of_relativity) as models of curved 4-dimensional spacetime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime). Just as Riemannian manifolds may be thought of a being locally modeled on Euclidean space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_space), Lorentzian manifolds are locally modeled on Minkowski space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space).



Formal definition

A pseudo-Riemannian manifold is a smooth manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_manifold) equipped with a smooth, symmetric, (0,2) tensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor) which is nondegenerate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondegenerate) at each point on the manifold. This tensor is called a pseudo-Riemannian metric or, simply, a (pseudo-)metric tensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_tensor).
Every nondegenerate, symmetric, bilinear form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilinear_form) has a fixed signature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_signature) (p,q).
Here p and q denote the number of positive and negative eigenvalues (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalue) of the form.
The signature of a pseudo-Riemannian manifold is just the signature of the metric on any given tangent space
(one should insist that the signature is the same on every connected component (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_space)).
Note that p + q = n is the dimension of the manifold. Riemannian manifolds are simply those with signature (n,0).
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pseudo-Riemannian_manifold&action=edit&section=2)]



___

Lorentzian manifolds

Pseudo-Riemannian metrics of signature (p,1) (or sometimes (1,q), see sign convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_convention)) are called Lorentzian metrics. A manifold equipped with a Lorentzian metric is naturally called a Lorentzian manifold. After Riemannian manifolds, Lorentzian manifolds form the most important subclass of pseudo-Riemannian manifolds. They are important because of their physical applications to the theory of general relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity). A principal assumption of general relativity is that spacetime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime) can be modeled as a Lorentzian manifold of signature (3,1).





Properties of pseudo-Riemannian manifolds

Just as Euclidean space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_space) Rn can be thought of as the model Riemannian manifold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemannian_manifold), Minkowski space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space) Rp,1 with the flat Minkowski metric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_metric) is the model Lorentzian manifold. Likewise, the model space for a pseudo-Riemannian manifold of signature (p,q) is Rp,q with the metric
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/d/3/2d3d330526e76d1c1a6545524e841a75.png Some basic theorems of Riemannian geometry can be generalized to the pseudo-Riemannian case. In particular, the fundamental theorem of Riemannian geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_Riemannian_geometry) is true of pseudo-Riemannian manifolds as well. This allows one to speak of the Levi-Civita connection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi-Civita_connection) on a pseudo-Riemannian manifold along with the associated curvature tensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curvature_tensor). On the other hand, there are many theorems in Riemannian geometry which do not hold in the generalized case. For example, it is not true that every smooth manifold admits a pseudo-Riemannian metric of a given signature; there are certain topological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology) obstructions.





LAYMEN
Its a controlled area of spacetime set up around the island.
so he could control things at a quantum level using the above models of space to better each particles vectors and orientation & wavelengths.



this is how he fudged things up.
the sickness could be related to it as well.


you might not notice the difference but your cells probaly do.
radiation from the sun may not be blocked by the magnetopshere of the earth, being offset from it and all.

[yung23]

Does an ideal map exist? Since an ideal map maps great circles to straight lines, it would map a spherical triangle onto a planar triangle. Since it preserves angles, the sum of the angles of the spherical triangle would equal the sum of the angles of the planar triangle, i.e., 180 degrees. On the other hand, Girard's Theorem implies that the sum of the angles of a spherical triangle is always more than 180 degrees. This contradiction means that there are no ideal maps. ...

http://math.rice.edu/~pcmi/sphere/icons/earth3.gif


I will wait till someone can see where I am going with this.... or till I can.

[island_maverick]

... more, this may be deep, but so is this show.


Hyperbolic Geometry also has practical aspects such as orbit prediction of objects within intense gradational fields. Hyperbolic Geometry is used in Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and Curved Hyperspace.

Deep....and infuriatingly interesting too.....thanks yung!! :hammersel


Hyperbolic Geometry can be modelled using Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity (SR). Indeed, you could argue they are somewhat analagous.

<SR> is a physical theory that assumes that the three ordinary dimesions of space are combined with a fourth dimension, time, to make a volume of space-time. The three ordinary dimesions are like a snapshot, or slices of a sausage, with the length of the sausage being time. So, one instance in time is flat, and time is made up of lots of slices of those snapshots or flat instances.

In this 'flat' environment (i.e. slice of sausage), where the ordinary three dimensions exist as a snapshot of time, the effects of gravity can be ignored because it has no mass, or size, it is flat. In this case, the principle of relativity applies - which states that, regardless of an observer's position or speed in the universe, all physical laws appear constant. With this in mind it means that the speed of light is constant, itself being a physical law.

<SR> inter-relates space and time because of this assumption that the speed of light is considered constant. If we imagine two people observing the same object/event, <SR> theory can lead to the situation where the two observers can actually disagree over the time intervals and distances between the object/event - even though they would completely agree about the actual specifics of the object/event.

This is because, if one observer was travelling at a different speed to the other observer (i.e they have a relative speed), they would both see the same event but it would appear, or be perceived to be, occuring over a different time span or distance (because speed of light is constant).

Therefore, in one observer's eyes, the event, and therefore TIME itself, would appear be passing more slowly, depending on his relative speed.

(BTW, this is the foundation for Einstein's equation, E=mc² (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%3Dmc%C2%B2)).

So, the island, from one observer to another, could appear to be existing in a different time (or at a different distance) compared to the other observer because the perception of it from one observer, travelling at a different speed, would be that TIME is travelling more slowly and therefore, similarly, so to the objects within that time.

This means that the island, from one observer to another, is intrinsically in the same place, and is the same thing - but could present itself to one observer at a different time than it does to another observer. So, the island would appear to exist to one person, in one snapshot of time, but would not appear to the other person at that same snapshot of time, he would see it later.

So, we have a scenario where the island could be perceived to phase in and out of existence, even though it is always there. This would allow it to appear and disappear, depending on who/what was trying to see it.

mav...:hammersel

[PandoraX]

yung & island... it's been a while since I read it, but aren't these the principles that they used in A Wrinkle in Time? I guess I could go read that thread again, too, I saw a few theories based on that there... not that I'm caught up yet in all the "recommended" reading... this is worse than junior high!

[island_maverick]

Pandora, it could be, based on the thread title, but I've never read that thread so perhaps I have just repeated what was said over there without realising. I'll take a look this evening and remove my post if it covers the same things. Thnx.

mav.

[yung23]

i may be re-iterating some of this stuff.

I damn near forgot about max public.
he was on fire.

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=535&highlight=hyperbolic

[RatherDashing]

.......Shades of LAND OF THE LOST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_Lost_(1974_television_series))?
How soon before we find Pylons ( and Dinosaurs ) on the Island?
And Sleestaks?

Please pardon the threadjack....

I loved this show as a kid, so I couldn't resist taking this link and re-visiting my youth.
In the cast section of the Wikipedia article, this gave me a good chuckle:

Sleestak Leader - Jon Locke (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jon_Locke&action=edit) (1976–1977)http://www.landofthelost.com/images/slatch.jpg Hmm, any resemblance? :D

[yung23]

then ratherdashing here you go. party on HR puffnstuff

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7133&highlight=HR+puffnstuff

[Kinish]

thats just messed up :confused:

[RatherDashing]

Great thread Yung, thanks for that link!

[yung23]

no problem


and along the hyperbolic lines.. it leads to the ellipse, which is how our planets move...


??
is our island existing in an euclidian space ?

we exist in a non -eucldian space, the globe.
so did they straighten out wavelengths ?

[PandoraX]

Pandora, it could be, based on the thread title, but I've never read that thread so perhaps I have just repeated what was said over there without realising. I'll take a look this evening and remove my post if it covers the same things. Thnx.

mav.

mav no no not at all! As yung said, some ideas deserve repeating, as they serve multiple purposes and interlink ideas, which is what we are trying to do here.

Also, I'm not sure if you realize... A Wrinkle in Time is not just a theory someone had on this forum. It's a book, and people are basing LOST theories off of it (I can't remember right now whether or not if it was a book that was specifically shown or mentioned, like Heart of Darkness or Watership Down). I read it a long long time ago, so am not the one to summarize it properly. I was very young (like 10) when I first read it and I don't think I understood all of the theory the sci fi was trying to bring into it, but the basic idea that I recall is that time is somewhat fluid like fabric, and you can bring two points closer together like a wrinkle. There's a lot more to it, but like I said, I was young... I was actually asking if someone could relate your thought to the book. That's all I was asking.

[island_maverick]

Ahhh....now I understand what you meant Pandora.

When I posted, despite not being aware of the book or thread, I hoped I was making something breakthrough. (Actually, I didn't - I just live in the hope that one day I will find something no-one else has....:o )

When I posted I was trying to back-up yung that Hyperbolic Geometry has credence. Hyperbolic Geometry is Special Relativity. Two parallel observations, never destined to intersect (different observers' POV snapshot of the same event in time), yet share the same end-game (agreement of the content of the event, even if disagreement about how long or when it occured). Well, I thought it was good. Ho hum.

mav

[yung23]

for now.. read this post I have updated...
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=401121&postcount=222
try to understand where I am going.


BASICALLY...
hanso needed Hilbert space to perform quantum miracles.




I will expand it later..

[island_maverick]

Keep going yung :thumbs_up

I think I know where this is going....;) .......:scratchch

mav.

[yung23]

and now the two threads kinda of meet...

in this thread we have Hanso preparing the world for the arrival of the new being....


And in this threads last two pages we have a possible link to these "beings"

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7576&page=25

.

.

[yung23]

bump.

[bv_bv63]

Um...

I think the bermuda triangle theory is definitely out.

It has been scientifically proven that the bermuda triangle is nothing more than a crack in the earth's crust, which has allowed methane gas to seep up to the surface. This makes the water less dense - and therefore the ships no longer have sufficient bouyancey to stay afloat. The aeroplanes that have crashed in the bermuda triangle is caused by the methane gas (which is lighter than air) rises into the atmosphere and the same problem occurs.

The writers of lost are not 3rd graders. They are obviously extremely intelligent, and would not base their entire show about something that was scientifically DISproven years ago.


I read some stuff on that theory, and it's nothing more than 'ifs', 'maybes' and 'possibilities'. It's not strong to suggest that that's exacly what's happening.

Like everything else surrounding the Bermuda Triangle, it's nothing more than a theory.


Everything else on here is absolutely amazing though.

[Danakin]

A technical mathematical definition of a manifold is given below. To fully understand the mathematics behind manifolds it will be necessary to know elementary concepts regarding sets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_%28mathematics%29) and functions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_%28mathematics%29), and it may also be helpful to have a working knowledge of calculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus) andtopology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology)....


I was right but wrong.
it was premature, I knew the idea but not the correct space.

Hilbert space is euclidian.. but so is this, and this fits even better.


Dude, you would need a university education (either that or be a Ramanujan-grade genius) to get a grip on that stuff, let alone apply it to Lost (though Einstein's Relativity theory in physics, which is partly based on Riemann manifolds, is eminently applicable). Topology for instance... that is a third year degree course in the UK - I plan to do it next year.

As for Set Theory, yes, along with Logic and the Natural numbers (which are defined in terms of sets) it forms the basis of mathematics. In terms of leg-work, though, it is worlds away from manifolds!

I'm just telling you from experience, that stuff is very, very difficult. And imagine the backlash they would get from the public if they mentioned a mathematical theorem in Lost!

[mrfrankie]

Um...

I think the bermuda triangle theory is definitely out.

It has been scientifically proven that the bermuda triangle is nothing more than a crack in the earth's crust, which has allowed methane gas to seep up to the surface. This makes the water less dense - and therefore the ships no longer have sufficient bouyancey to stay afloat. The aeroplanes that have crashed in the bermuda triangle is caused by the methane gas (which is lighter than air) rises into the atmosphere and the same problem occurs.

The writers of lost are not 3rd graders. They are obviously extremely intelligent, and would not base their entire show about something that was scientifically DISproven years ago.

If all theories regarding the Bermuda Triangle were disproven then where have all the missing planes and ships gone?

[bigmouth]

This means that the island, from one observer to another, is intrinsically in the same place, and is the same thing - but could present itself to one observer at a different time than it does to another observer. So, the island would appear to exist to one person, in one snapshot of time, but would not appear to the other person at that same snapshot of time, he would see it later.
IslandMav: You know, this could explain what happened to Medical Hatch. Remember the stains on the walls? Perhaps it was abandoned, but long before they ever arrived on the Island. Maybe Claire's bizarre experience therein was the result of her entering a different time frame of reference (i.e., Ethan's) if that makes any sense.

[yung23]

danakin, agreed. I was simply giving people a starting point if they wanted to understand what they truly are. I needed to check myself. that was where I fell flat on my face too.

but, I like how you put it..

worlds away from manifolds

[John]

Quick note:

PandoraX - Sawyer was seen reading A Wrinkle in Time after he finished Watership Down.

[JacksGirlfriend]

The writers of lost are not 3rd graders. They are obviously extremely intelligent, and would not base their entire show about something that was scientifically DISproven years ago.

And yet people continue to believe, writers continue to invent, scientists continue to study and individuals continue to be afraid. Along with ghosts, aliens and improbable creatures, it's the mystery and magic that sparks our imagination and makes these kinds of ideas the most intriguing.

As long as people continue to think they are a gateway to another dimension or a sure death, triangles will invade our thoughts and our literature. One might even swallow you up.

[Tage]

I don't buy an 'alternate earth' theory simply because it is a little too supernatural for Lost. I think the plane was probably forceably seperated by the electromagnetic fields on the island.

[LostHorizon]

Bumping!

:bump:

It was quite interesting in what "Henry Gale" said to Locke in the Hurley Flashback "Dave" Episode, I believe it was:

"God cannot see this Island, let alone the rest of the world..."

Makes one think..... :scratchch
Yung23, what do you make of this?

:confused:

[clayseason1]

So far this thread has discussed the "where" and the "how" of our Lost mysteries. Given the last episode "SOS", I think this discussion can be expanded into some of the other unexplained areas.

The Bermuda triangle is part of the Vile Vortices. The Vile Vortices are part of the Planetary Energy Grid (matrix of cosmic energy that encircles the earth) (http://www.crystalinks.com/grids.html).

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/5210/planetarygrid15zq.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planetarygrid15zq.jpg)

Ayers Rock in Australia is considered a natural beacon vortex - a place of unusual energy. We learned in "SOS" that Isaac located his clinic in that area so he could harness that energy and use it to cure people. (I think this would make Isaac a "special" person with a "special" ability.) From his conversation with Rose we learn that the energy at Ayers Rock was not the energy that Rose needed. We also learn from Isaac that he believes she can be cured somewhere else (place unknown) using that place's energy.

Isaac/Rose conversation (Thank you Spooky!)

ISAAC: You must be Rose. Why don't you have a seat.
ROSE: So, um, how does this work? I sit here and you chant, pray, or what?
ISAAC: There are certain places with great energy -- spots on the Earth like the one we're above now. Perhaps this energy is geological -- magnetic. Or perhaps it's something else. And when possible I harness this energy and give it to others. May I?
[He puts his hands near Rose's face and closes his eyes. He suddenly opens his eyes, looking disturbed.]
ROSE: What? What, what is it?
ISAAC: I'm sorry. I can't do anything for you, Rose.
ROSE: I didn't expect you to. [Rose goes to a window and looks out at Bernard talking to a young girl on crutches.]
ISAAC: It's not that you can't be healed. Like I said, there's different energies. This is not the right place for you.
ROSE: Where is the right place?
ISAAC: I wish I knew. I'll return your husband's donation.
ROSE: Don't. I'm going to tell him you fixed me. I'm going to tell him you fixed me.

Questions:
1. Jack "fixed" Sarah. Did Jack (unknowingly) channel energy from a nearby "energy spot" like Ayers Rock?
2. Is Jack "special" like Isaac? Jack wouldn't think so, after all, he's a man of science. But, maybe, as Locke suggested, he's a man of faith - he just doesn't know it yet.

We have seen two "miracle" cures and one possible "miracle" cure on the island. Rose is free from cancer, Locke is no longer paralyzed and Jin can now father children. So it would seem that the island is the "right place" for these people.
Question:
Is this why all the survivors are there? Is this why (as Locke suggests) they were all "chosen" for a reason?

There may be another "miracle" cure that has occured on the island that is not so evident. I would like to call your attention to the hatch mural.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3152/iamsickiamwellmural5rs.th.jpg (http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iamsickiamwellmural5rs.jpg)

It looks like someone or some unknown entity is sick - or at least was sick before Walt was taken. After Walt is take - "I am well".

Question:
Did Walt channel energy and cure this unknown entity? Is that why Walt is "special"?

Speaking of the hatch: - Questions:
1. Is it a coincidence that the dome is constructed like the "planetary energy grid?

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6404/orientation283054xb.th.png (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=orientation283054xb.png) http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9485/planetarygrid8eh.th.gif (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planetarygrid8eh.gif)

2. Does the hatch map follow the same triangular construction?

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3535/blastdoormapoverlaynew29ci.th.jpg (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blastdoormapoverlaynew29ci.jpg)


Last, but not least:
Questions:
1. If energy can be harnessed and channelled to cure people, can it be harnessed and channelled to to make people sick?
I noticed in Isaac's flyer that the person does not need to be present to receive the benefits or "cure" that Isaac can effect by channelling the harnessed energy.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/183/soscap2900lf.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soscap2900lf.jpg)

2. Could someone on the island have channelled harnessed energy to give Rose cancer?

3. Is that why Isaac was disturbed when trying to help Rose? Did he see some "dark energy" at work?

4. Was Susan Porter (Walt's mother) a victim of this same "dark energy"?

5. Is this how the unknown entity manipulates who it needs or wants to the island?

As you can see, I have more questions than answers. :D

[LostInWilderness]

I think Rose's cure on the island was a way to inform us what was happening to the Redshirts. I don't think she was a main character, somebody who was infected from the island. I think the island is huge psychic power point though, and I think presence of the faith healer in addition to Claire's psychic almost guarantees we're dealing with psychic activity on the island.

[NeillT006]

CS, wonderfully done.

N.

[clayseason1]

Thank-you Neil. :)

LIW
I think Rose's cure on the island was a way to inform us what was happening to the Redshirts.
So, what is happening to the Redshirts?

I think the island is huge psychic power point though, and I think presence of the faith healer in addition to Claire's psychic almost guarantees we're dealing with psychic activity on the island
I agree. I think the paranormal activities fit the "pseudoscience" explanation quite well.