+ Seating arrangments....

[PinkTilly]

Alright... you know how everyone is like "OH! But they weren't on the plane!" or "OH BOOO HOOO They weren't in a section that survived!!!"

Well, let's see here.... I've gotten soooo bored, that in fact, I have figured out where some of the people are on the plane....


Here is a diagram: - = seat + = bathroom (#ofseats and rows will not be entirelyaccurate) ~ = first class curtains ...=walls

B--- -------- ---
A--- -------- --- So far, this is the back end of the plane
C--- -------- --- no one "survived from" this includeds the
K--- -------- --- frontal bathrooms...
+ + ......... ++
B --- ------- --- This is the area where: Charlie sits
M--- ------- --- originially 2nd row before dividers, and isle
I --- ------- ---seat. Jack sits about 3/4 rows in front of him.
D--- ------- --- Jack sits next to Rose, and Locke sits behind
--- ------- --- Rose. On the opposite side of this section,
--- ------- --- Kate sits, I figured this out by seeing which
--- ------- --- People in which areas hit the ceilings.
+ + ......... ++
F--- -------- --- I have not yet figured out who sits in this
M--- -------- --- general area... Possibly Sawyer (reasons are
I --- -------- --- stated below)
D--- -------- ---
...... .......... ......<This is a cooking area that has been seen)
...... ......... ....<

B --- -------- --- In this Class, you CLEARLY see Boone and
C --- -------- --- Shannon, when Charlie Passes them, on
L --- -------- --- way to snort, in 1st class bathrooms. This
A --- -------- --- is business class. And, as stated by
S --- -------- --- Sawyer, Sayid was sitting in business class,
S --- -------- --- Although, I never see him. I also assume,
--- -------- --- that due to the fact Sawyer could CLEARLY
--- -------- --- see Sayid, in B-class, he was there as well,
--- -------- --- or in on of the front roes of FMID section...
--- -------- --- It should also be noted that Charlie sat in
--- -------- --- 3/4 row on the right side, window seat,
--- -------- --- after almost being hit by the food cart.
...~~ .......... ~~ .....
F--- ------- --- In first class, this is where Charlie goes to
I--- ------- --- snort/getafix.... After he hits the ceiling, he
R--- ------- --- runs BACK THROUGH THE CURTAINS, and sits
S--- ------- --- in the front 3/4 row of Bclass. No one is to
T--- ------- --- have survived the 1st class... but I saw
--- ------- --- MANY empty seats, when JK&C checked it
--- ------- --- out.
... ++ ....... ++ ....


Well then of course
where I'm writing
would be the cockpit..


Anyways... lets me know what you think... so, we have 14 people:
Jack --- He has been seen on the plane (secBmid...)
Kate --- She has been seen on the plane (sec Bmid..)
Charlie --- Origninally seen in sec Bmid, then in First, then in B class.... finally .
Claire --- Never been seen on plane, or heard by word of mouth to be on the plane...
Locke --- Seen on the plane, behind Rose, diagonal from Jack in secBmid...
Mike --- Not seen or heard of on plane... but through logic, most likely was.
Walt --- Not seen or heard of on plane... but through logic, most likely was. (along w/ vincent mind you)
Shannon --- Seen on plane in the B-class w/ Boone sitting 1 seat away from Boone.
Boone --- Seen on plane in the B-class w/ Shannon sitting 1 seat away from Shannon.
Jin --- Not seen or heard of on plane... but through logic, most likely was.
Sun --- Not seen or heard of on plane... but through logic, most likely was.
Sawyer --- Not seen or heard of on plane... but through logic, most likely was. (aka, HIM SEEING Sayid on the plane)
Sayid --- We don't see Sayid on the plane, but through word of mouth, aka, Sawyer, he was.
Hurley --- He has not been seen on the plane, or heard of to be on the plane, & there is no evidence that he was EVER on the plane... w/ the excpetion of changes of clothing for a man his size...


Let me know what you guyz think... I don't know when I started this ... but its 3:15 pm now... so I guess when I post I'll get to see how long it took me to do this... let me know what youguyz think... and what things this does/doesn't 'clear-up' .... Okay. :D




Want to read more threads dealing with similar ideas? CLICK HERE (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27072)

[drabauer]

COOL Thanks PT!

WIll update the index pronto!

drabauer

[Wynter Zera]

WOW, that's a lot of work! Go PT! *waves pom poms*

[cccourt]

I am posting on this and other interesting threads to remind and urge you to give the gift of gold for Christmas: Give to the LOST-TV Community Chest to help Master Xander pay for our fun!
Thx, ccc, azteclady, and Jack'sgirlfriend

[SecretSquirrel911]

It's the gift that keeps on giving!

[Wynter Zera]

bumping

[Akron15]

Wasn't Jin in line behind Jack when he was going off on the desk person about letting his father's body go on the plane? They kind of panned behind him after his tirade and there was Jin waiting to check in.

[gertie]

I wrote this in another thread before I saw this one.
<<
I think something is so suspicious about Hurley. He is so large that someone on the plane had to complain about sitting next to him. (My first reaction would be to buzz the attendant.) If he had a legitimate ticket, wouldn't a flight employee be concerned where he sat? Would he be forced to have a first class ticket to accomidate his size? If he was in first class, EVERYONE boarding would have noticed him. Also, didn't the first class get 'lost'?
>>'lost' meaning dead

[llywrch]

I think something is so suspicious about Hurley. He is so large that someone on the plane had to complain about sitting next to him.

Maybe he bought tickets for 2 seats. Some airlines insist on this for people Hurley's size.

Geoff

[jcrew1179]

Yeah, I don't think Hurley was ever on the plane. I think it would be a really cool storyline if he wasn't on the plane. Perhaps he is Alex.

But if he wasn't on the plane, then he must be one of "the Others." But then he acted like he did not know Ethan, so he probably was on the plane. If he was on the plane, I think the plane crashed cuz he started jumping up and down.

[Wolfman456]

I think I actually saw him in one of the plane flashbacks. I'll watch the re-runs and tell you all. It was only for a few seconds thou.

[Mattie]

Jack was in seat 23A. 23 as in 4815162342...

http://img126.exs.cx/img126/9915/seat237iw.jpg

[collapseofmyheart]

And Hurley took the papers and checked people on the plane to see who was dead and who was alive...maybe he is Alex...

[Tinstaafl69]

If Hurley is Alex, why wouldn't Danielle recognize him as her child?

[collapseofmyheart]

Good point...

[Wolfman456]

If boone and Shannon sat next to each other on the plane could their seats have been numbers 15 and 16 or seat 15 and 16 could have been micheal and walt's seats?


Maybe the numbers will say who dies on the island by what seat they sat in?

[igator210]

It is unclear where Boone and Shannon ended up sitting. They were not in their assigned seats in first class

[HortenseHysteria]

Never been confirmed, but a few people have said that they saw a glimpse of someone with big hair, and headphones on, and thought it might be Hurley.

[igator210]

Jin on the plane pic? (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=3&pos=409)



If you look a few rows behind Rose and to the left, there appears to be a guy that looks like Jin. This would put him in about row 27.

Anyone able to rewatch the scene and see if there is a better picture?

[jaystao]

Excellent. Lets hope they have more scenes of the plane before the crash. Question when Charlie was in the toilets the stewardesses were outside the toilet just before the 'turbulence'. What happened to them when Charlie came out moments later? Where did they go? Did they run to the cock pit to see what was happening? What is the procedure?

[gertie]

bump

[LoStMyMiNd]

I've been doing some thinking and maybe some of the people that we did not see on the plane were part of the crew and in the cockpit, like Ethan for instance. Maybe Ethan was one of the pilots

[thoughtform]

Here is one thread about the seating of the survivors. bump

[LostInWilderness]

I don't see Jin in that pic, but isn't that Locke's wheelchair to his left folded up behind Jack's seat?

[Hodgepodge]

LostInWilderness says:I don't see Jin in that pic, but isn't that Locke's wheelchair to his left folded up behind Jack's seat?
LIW, Jin's to the left, in the back.

And no, I pretty sure that's not Locke's wheelchair. The flight attendants would've put it in an enclosure so it wouldn't fly around.

[sexy baby mama]

I saw Jin as well, but can't make anyone else out.

[LoStMyMiNd]

Where was Rose's husband seated?

[Nevada IHJ]

Next to rose, but he'd gone to the bathroom. Remember she was nervous about the turbulence, and told that to Jack.

[LoStMyMiNd]

I remember very clearly what Rose said about her husband. However, Jack was sitting next to Rose

[LostInWilderness]

I still can't see Jin. There is some metal frame visible behind Jack's chair next to Locke. I agree with you Hodge that a stewardess wouldn't do that, but it sure looks like it could be part of a folded up wheelchair. Let's face it, the chair had to be in the middle of the plane somewhere, because it was in the wreckage.

[sexy baby mama]

Well, now I'm going to nit-pick.

ODammet - Jack was sitting across the aisle from Rose. Rose had an extra open seat on the other side of her, which was empty. I assume that was her husband's seat. So Rose was sitting exactly next to her husband, while Jack was sitting next to Rose, but across the aisle.

And LIW - I see Jin in the back, on the left. His head is right next to one of the air masks that are hanging from the ceiling. And, I don't see a wheelchair behind Jack's seat, only the arm of the seat behind him. (I could be wrong, but I spent a long time looking at it, and that's what I saw - an airplane seat arm.)

[LoStMyMiNd]

Are you sure Jack was sitting across the isle from Rose. Because I could swear that jack had a window seat and Rose was sitting right next to him

[spooky]

He was sitting next to the window at first, but he moved to the isle seat to be closer to Rose. You can see a screen cap here. (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=3&pos=397)

[LoStMyMiNd]

Ok thanks Spooky

[Bushwoods]

A quick question, if Rose's husband went to the bathroom, why didn't we see him when Charlie also went to the bathroom in the same section of the plane? Even when the plane hits turbulance, Charlie drops the heroin in the toilet, exits the bathroom and heads to his seat. We never see an african-american man. I don't think her husband was ever actually on the plane. Also, it looks like a wedding ring that she wears around her neck, it could be her dead husbands.

[thoughtform]

I think Charlie went to the bathroom in first class. As for Rose's husband, Maybe he isn't an African-American.

[DontWannaBLost]

I recall in the pilot them showing Rose's hubby getting up to go to the bathroom, I think to the ones behind their seats. Since Charlie got his fix in the bathrooms in the front of the plane, it explains why we don't see the hubby.

[LoStMyMiNd]

Did Rose ever say what nationality her husband was?

I'm in the camp that thinks Rose is coocoo. I too think her husband was dead or at least was not on the plane. I bet he haunts her thats why she thinks he is alive somewhere

[Hodgepodge]

For those that are curious about where Rose's husband set, there's another thread about who set in seat 23C here (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=2161.topic).

[SweetAsSugar2718]

this is a great thread, but i want to point out, that after reading it all, no one has seen michael or walt on the plane at all...

and in the special episode, when brian went to michaels home and asked him to take walt, brian said something like (and this is not a direct quote, but pretty close) "i got you two plane tickets from sydney to new york"

yes, he definately said new york. now its possible that their plane stopped in los angeles first, but then why werent any of the other survivors going to new york as well?

so as we have no proof of mike and walt being on the plane, i think its very likely that THEY WERENT ON THE PLANE AT ALL

[lost416]

It is impossible to fly direct from Sydney to New York. In fact, the most common routing is from Sydney to Los Angeles or San Francisco and then on to New York.

As for where the survivors were headed, we know for a fact that Jin and Sun, Jack and Claire were headed to LA. We can assume that Locke, Hurley, Boone and Shannon were all headed to LA based on where they live or started their trips from. We know that Walt and Michael were NYC bound. However, it is unclear as to where Kate was being transported to by the Marshall and the destinations of Sayid and Sawyer are equally unclear.

Finally, given that Michael went to get Walt approx. 1 week prior to the crash and that Walt burnt the raft because he was tired of moving, I think it is safe to assume they were on the plane.

[SweetAsSugar2718]

i agree that they were definately on a plane, but theres no proof at all that they were on flight 815. they were never seen on the plane, and i dont think that we ever even saw them at the airport (though i could be wrong, has anyone seen them anywhere before the crash?) and as everything in the show has lots of significance, i think that brian giving michael and walt tickets and clearly saying that they were to new york might be important.

[LoStMyMiNd]

Maybe there was a layover in LA

[SweetAsSugar2718]

sorry, i dont mean to ask a stupid or obvious question, but whats a layover?

[LoStMyMiNd]

Thats where the plane lands in one place, and stays awhile to refuel and whatnot. Like when I fly to Hawaii from Oregon, my plane stops in Seattle then it goes onto Hawaii or sometimes I've switched flights to a larger airliner in Seattle.

[Hodgepodge]

SweetAsSugar2718, you're going to have to accept the fact that you can't fly from Sydney, Australia directly to New York, New York. Believe me, we've checked! As Lost416 says, you have to fly to either San Francisco or Los Angeles. Then, catch a connecting flight to New York.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, there are a few other survivors that aren't shown on the plane. But, according to Hurley and the manifest he took. Ethan was the only person in the camps that wasn't on flight 815.

[LostInWilderness]

And we know how honest everybody on the island is. ;)

[lacenaire]

If we are going to doubt .... how about Hurley himself?
We have no indication that he was on the plane.
Locke clearly asked him "who's checking on you?"

[NurseHotLips]

After last nights ep we now know that Anna was in seat 42F. Is there a way we can start filling in the seat on the diagram? I think it would be more helpful if we started to see the seats filled.

I found a pic of a Boeing 77 on AA.com. i'm going to attempt to fill in the seats with all our casatways on this pic. It might make it easier for us to think about where everyone was.

If someone else has already donen this please let me know. If anyone has screen shots of the plane and knows where people were sitting let me know.

If this has not been done before I am taking this on as my personal project.

[DefntlyDiffrnt]

Great! Because I think we can start putting faces/names to seat locations. If Jack was in 23B, then Rose was in 23C, and Locke would've been in 24C or D. ??? It'd be great to see the diagram with the names. I'm sure with everybody here you'd get the help you needed. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Thanks for doing it!

[contradiktion]

This had been attempted before here: www.xs4all.nl/~arie777/lost/index.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~arie777/lost/index.html)

[LostinTrinity]

In the pilot didn't Rose say Jack was nice to give up his first class ticket to some old lady? How is that possible when he told the girl in the airport his seat # and was actually in that seat #. Another continuity problem I guess. Where's my list?

[DefntlyDiffrnt]

There's a problem with the chart b/c it starts at row 1. Planes don't do that. They start at 3. Don't ask me why. I've asked my b/f who works for American Airlines and he doesn't know either. It's speculated b/c of the captain's deck. Anyway, it's a small thing but could impact where exactly the seats are located in conjunction with other things on the plane.

[NurseHotLips]

I have aproblem with the attached chart because it's not a part of this board. It's from another fan site. I think I'll work on mine for OUR board.

[drabauer]

Please do sunnyelou, and I will give it a special place in the index!

thanks!

[SeattleFilmMaker]

Well, after thinking it out a bit, and talking to a friend of mine who recently flew with a wheelchair, I have to say that I HIGHLY doubt Locke is sitting in row 24. Why? Just try and fit a wheelchair down a narrow row. Hard to do. In fact, most flights put wheelchair people BEHIND first class, in front of Business; there's lots more room to manuever a wheelchair there, especially if the person CAN'T WALK.

The wheelchair we see on the Island is probably not Locke's own; I believe that the airlines take your regular wheelchair (most chairs that people OWN aren't like the simple, fold-up version we see on the Island), put it underneath, and put you in a simple, lightweight Fold-up version that is then either taken back to the ramp, or folded and placed in a special closet. Wheelchairs are NEVER put with someone in a seat or row. NEVER. So don't think that Locke is "holding onto" his chair. It aint' gonna happen.

I want to see PROOF that Locke is sitting in Row 24. Please. :)

-E

[SweetAsSugar2718]

hes definately in row 24. i guess the writers just forgot about his wheelchair in this scene...

heres a link to a pic
www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=3&pos=394 (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=3&pos=394)

[spooky]

Trinity wrote:
In the pilot didn't Rose say Jack was nice to give up his first class ticket to some old lady?
I don't remember that. I tried to find it in the transcript for the Pilot, but no luck. Maybe it's from another episode? It would be interesting if Jack changed his seat for some reason.

[SeattleFilmMaker]

I don't recall Jack changing his seat. If he did, it was done previous to flying.

Thanks for the pic...I can NOT understand, for the life of me, WHY they'd put Locke there. It's simply not done, in my experience. I mean, look at the width of the aisle: it does NOT look wide enough, even for a smaller-profile chair.

This is odd...maybe it IS just a slipup on behalf of the continuity.

EDIT: My girlfriend just looked up Uniteds' Wheelchair policies. They claim to have narrow-width wheelchairs for getting down the aisle. I guess I've never SEEN it done, so some of that was assuming. However...

Why didn't Jack, Rose, or ANYONE sitting near them notice him getting into his seat? The only thing I can think is that Wheelchair passengers are let onto the plane first, so that they can get them in easier. So, no one would've been sitting next to him as he's being put in his seat; he'd probably look like he was able-bodied, although I'd wonder (because I'm an oddball) why he was in BEFORE me, if he's not sitting in First-Class. Also, wouldn't anyone have noticed him being brought on board at the gate? Maybe I'm the only one who looks around me, but I notice things like that; I mean, it's pretty BORING, standing in line, waiting for your section to be called, so there's not much else for me TO do.

Comments?

-E

[SweetAsSugar2718]

yeah youre right, but as detailed as the writers can get, i dont think they are that detailed. also, if they had shown locke in a wheelchair on the flight in the first episode, we wouldnt have been so surprised later. its also possible that locke wasnt in a wheelchair before the flight for some strange reason or another, maybe his whole backstory is false...

[SeattleFilmMaker]

Hrrmm, I doubt his backstory is false.

I'm not saying that WE would've seen him in the airport, I'm saying that the others on the same flight would've, but we didn't see that yet. I think we will in the next episode, since everyone's coming together right before the flight, thier lives intersecting.

-E

[SweetAsSugar2718]

none of the characters could have seen locke in a wheelchair because then they would wonder why he could suddenly walk on the island.

[SeattleFilmMaker]

Well, I'd guess you're right, unless someone hasn't spoken up about it. I guess people don't pay attention to that stuff, like I do.

Interesting.

-E

[LoStMyMiNd]

Yes SFM that has all been discussed ad nauseum

[Dogmai]

Well, the last show probably answered wher everybody sat on the plane.
I pretty much saw everybody, well except the dog. :)

Which brings up a strange question. If the cargo hold is in the back of the plane,
and that's where they put all the animals in cages, then how did the dog survive the
crash? Wasn't the tail section (cargo hold) completely ripped off?

[Dogmai]

Ah, nevermind. I think the cargo hold is in the midsection, belly of the plane,
not the end section.

[azteclady]

People, start seating our survivors! Who noted the numbers of the seats that Hurley bought? Who noted who passed who while heading for their seats?

Lets see how observant we are - and whether anything comes out of this theory!

[CrazyCanuck]

There are many inconsistencies in the seating. Not just the 3x4x3 configuration in the TV show and the 3x3x3 on the website.

In the last scene on the aircraft in Exodus 3 as we see them all boarding there are numerous mistakes and continuity errors.

Hurley walks past row 20,21,22,23,24 on his way rearward yet he is in seat 20G. Also as he goes past Walt he gives him the thumbs up and row 23 is beside him. That would make Walt in row 23 or 24 middle. Yet they definitely aren't in the middle section rows with Rose or Locke.

Michael leans over to check Walts seatbelt and the B can be clearly seen on Walts arm rest. That would make him in 23B or 24B. Next to Jack or right behind him. No way. That would also make the plane a single aisle narrow body which it isn't.

As Claire is seating she is going past row 22,23,24 and you can clearly see Arzt seated in 24D, with a man seated in 23D. No Jack no Locke.

There are others but it is just annoying that for a show with such attention to detail that blatant ERRORS like this are made and in such a large quantity.

It is probably just a limitation of the mock up set of the aircraft that only a small section exists. But they could at least change the numbers on the rows and ensure people are seated correctly.

[alowndes]

Check me if I'm wrong but, didn't Hurley have to purchase 2 tickets because of his size? Also, Sayhid sat down and the guy next to him stared at him, probably concerned he may be a terrorist?

[alowndes]

Remember, he had to buy 2 seats to handle his size.

[Warcat]

I wanted to place this in the thread I started with my theory of 2 different planes, but naturally the Mod's locked it (freedom of speech my ass!) anyway, and this would make more sense in the other thread, I just was playing at the Oceanic.com website and realized that as well as entering flight 815 into track mode, you can also entr flight 500 and go forward to the tracking screen, so far they nare the only 2 numbers that send you to the link.

[LoStMyMiNd]

Maybe since the seating numbers are inconsistent that this is not such a big clue or deal

[Warcat28]

There are many inconsistencies in the seating. Not just the 3x4x3 configuration in the TV show and the 3x3x3 on the website.

In the last scene on the aircraft in Exodus 3 as we see them all boarding there are numerous mistakes and continuity errors.

Hurley walks past row 20,21,22,23,24 on his way rearward yet he is in seat 20G. Also as he goes past Walt he gives him the thumbs up and row 23 is beside him. That would make Walt in row 23 or 24 middle. Yet they definitely aren't in the middle section rows with Rose or Locke.


Hurley is told by the ticket agent, “ok, here are two seats” is she saying “here I’m printing you tickets for your seat and the seat next to you” or is she saying “here, I found two seats together in a different location?”

Michael leans over to check Walts seatbelt and the B can be clearly seen on Walts arm rest. That would make him in 23B or 24B. Next to Jack or right behind him. No way. That would also make the plane a single aisle narrow body which it isn't.

This supports my theory that Walt, Michael, Hurley, Sun, Jin, and Claire are on a different plane.

As Claire is seating she is going past row 22,23,24 and you can clearly see Arzt seated in 24D, with a man seated in 23D. No Jack no Locke.

This supports my theory that Walt, Michael, Hurley, Sun, Jin, and Claire are on a different plane.

There are others but it is just annoying that for a show with such attention to detail that blatant ERRORS like this are made and in such a large quantity.

tell me more...

[cccourt]

EZ BOARD MEMBERSHIP SAVES US MONEY. JOIN NOW.

[drabauer]

I hope that these are merely errors; otherwise they suggest that the flashbacks are subjective, from the viewpoint of an unreliable narrator, which would hopelessly complicate the narrative.

[SweetAsSugar2718]

Warcat28 , I used to believe in a theory similar to yours, that there were two planes- one with jack, locke, charlie, etc. and one with hurley, mike and walt, jin, sun, and claire.

theres only one problem though. if there were two different planes, how could you explain the flight manifest?

[Warcat]

Not sure yet, Only that Hurley seems to be "The link" to the numbers and somehow he's got something in the cards with Walt.

I think Hurley made up the manifest to out Ethan (protecting Walt)

[LostInWilderness]

Should this thread be stickied?

[lostmio]

theres only one problem though. if there were two different planes, how could you explain the flight manifest

In 20 words or less:
It came from master-con-man sawyer and was manifested by spelling-identification-impaired Hurley.

[lostmio]

This supports my theory that Walt, Michael, Hurley, Sun, Jin, and Claire are on a different plane.

If you add Artz, and possibly Sayid and Sawyer, then I want to have your baby.

[lostmio]

Well, the last show probably answered wher everybody sat on the plane.

Not by any criterion I can conjure..,

[lostmio]

In the last scene on the aircraft in Exodus 3 as we see them all boarding there are numerous mistakes and continuity errors.

Yes, yes, and yes. Thanks for the validation of my own posts on this issue.
Mistakes? No. No.
Continutiy errors? No no and hell no.

edited to add:
The oceanic-air.com site is right-on. Waaay too many clues and spoilers to list here, suffice to say it's majorly important that they list certain characters and ignore others.

[Bocabrat]

Hurley HAD to pay for two seats. Remember the ticket lady made him pay for two. Because a man of his size. As she put it. Also, this might help.


OCEANIC AIRLINES : Seating Chart 777 : ALL FLIGHTS CANCELLED


sorry it did not highlight.

[clayseason1]

When I viewed the finale, I thought the scenes with everyone boarding the plane had a disconnect quality to it. Rather like shots from two planes being boarded at the same time but not using the split screen approach.

Then when the oceanic website surfaced, I too thought – perhaps there were two separate planes. Since the oceanic website appears to be genuine and not a hoax, I think the information on it should be relevant.

Someone mentioned that con man Sawyer had the manifest and the inference that implies is that he altered it in some way or replaced it. Aren’t manifests typed or computer generated? Wouldn’t copious handwritten changes be questioned? Also, Hurley’s ability to spell would not account for gross inconsistencies in the manifest. So therefore, I accept the manifest, as it appears to be.

So, in order for everything we know to be true, the question must be asked:

How can two planes depart an airport, one of them crash, the other land (the oceanic website indicates an actual landing time for the plane – but listed “alert” instead of landed) and only one unaltered manifest show up at the crash site?

I cannot think of a reasonable explanation according to the world, as we know it.

I can only think of a sci-fi explanation for the question.

Parallel worlds – One plane in each of two worlds – one plane boarded from gate 15 (as reflected on the Oceanic website) in one world – one plane boarded from gate 23 as we saw from some of the flashback scenes in the other world.

Both planes would have to have the same people aboard (or the manifest would not be correct), but there could be seating differences.

One of those planes was destined for the island and one was not. Perhaps during the storm the two parallel worlds came together and our lostaways merged with their counterparts and wound up on the plane that crashed.

The other plane that lands is in alert status because it’s inexplicably missing some passengers.

[athywithak]

clayseason, why do you think this:

Since the oceanic website appears to be genuine and not a hoax

My impression is that the site comes from ABC, but not Lost. Therefore I am not sure what to make of it, and when it doesn't line up with what I see on my TV, I go with my TV.

My impression (but I don't read / follow that much outside this board) is that the Lost creators are under some pressure from ABC and that writer Fury may have quit in part because of it. My impression is that stuff that doesn't come from watching the show, maybe not even the diary, which I really like and would love to see included in the show, should just not be relied upon. Even quotes from TPTB. But especially stuff from ABC.

However, if some of ya'll think the Oceanic info is good info, I'd like to hear why. Maybe I should head over to the Oceanic thread first, eh? But its pretty hard to discuss seating without discussing the Oceanic site, unless we wanna ignor the site.

The whole Seat 23C / Harrold W. stuff is the major argument for a two planes idea, I think. And the manifest the major argument against.

I vote no on parallel realities. Sigh.

Kw/K
where is spellcheck when I need it?

[clayseason1]

athywithak
clayseason, why do you think this
Since the oceanic website appears to be genuine and not a hoax
athywithak says
My impression is that the site comes from ABC, but not Lost. Therefore I am not sure what to make of it, and when it doesn't line up with what I see on my TV, I go with my TV.

Well, I’m not quite sure what to make of it either and I as well don’t follow every interview and read every thread. When the oceanic website first came up, I immediately thought “hoax” and then all the threads I read at that time indicated that it was legitimate. So, I took it with a grain of salt – maybe it is – maybe it isn’t.

I think we are just processing the information and theories differently (probably because we think differently – as people tend to do:) ).
I vote no on parallel realities. Sigh
If I could vote, I would vote no on – “it’s all in Locke’s mind” and the virtual reality scenarios – (although these scenarios could at least explain why there are no hairbrushes), but just like parallel realities – These theories are possible and many have merit. So, I'm not ready to discount them. I don't think we have enough information at this point to come up with the correct theory that answers everything. But it sure is fun to speculate.:D

Having said all that – if the oceanic website info is true and what we have seen on the show is true and the manifest has not been altered, then the only explanation that I can see (there may be other explanations) is parallel worlds.

[Mad Matt]

First time poster, been a lurker for 3 weeks.
I think there is a lot to be gleaned from the Oceanic site.

Only Shannon, Boone, Charlie, Locke, Jack, Marshal (Ed), Kate and Rose are shown in the Oceanic seating chart after selecting all the seats to reveal them. Where are the remaining ones?

Charlie was clearly in the front section when he darted to the bathroom. Boone and Shannon are shown seated in the front. How did they end up on the beach and not with the pilot?

A few more interesting things pop up on the Oceanic site:

The flight tracker page shows 815 having departed sydney at 14:04, with arrival in LA at 03:16.

The seating chart lists 815 having a departure time of 8:04 landing in LAX 18:16. Two different times.

I believe the plane was boarded early afternoon (i.e. Sun looking at her watch at 11:15, Hurley oversleeping) What's up with the 8:04 departure? An inconsitency or deliberately misleading?

Also, the Oceanic seating chart does not show Kate until Marshal is revealed, and then shows her seat in Red. It doesn't reveal Rose until Jack's seat is revealed and her seat is in Red too. Then it shows Jack's seat move from 23A to 23c as several have discussed. The clue or teaser when selecting seat 23c is a dancing vodka bottle with a Cyrillic label. No indication of Harold. What's up with that???

Sorry for repeating the obvious to those who have bounced around the Ocenanic site for a while, but I am a firm believer that there are bigtime clues on that site.

-MadMatt

[lostmio]

Only Shannon, Boone, Charlie, Locke, Jack, Marshal (Ed), Kate and Rose are shown in the Oceanic seating chart after selecting all the seats to reveal them. Where are the remaining ones?
It's been discussed in other threads/forums that members of this group can also be placed together on a plane thru the tv episodes.
The missing members can all be placed together on a plane via the episodes.
But to date, there's been no crossover on a plane between the two groups.
Too big a coincidence, imo.

The flight tracker page shows 815 having departed sydney at 14:04, with arrival in LA at 03:16.
The seating chart lists 815 having a departure time of 8:04 landing in LAX 18:16. Two different times.
I believe the plane was boarded early afternoon (i.e. Sun looking at her watch at 11:15, Hurley oversleeping)

I just posted about this in the gd forum. Translated from LAX to SYD time, 8:04 is 15:04, close enough to be explained by a departure delay. (I'm not convinced that's it, but it's possible).
I think the 1400-1500 range is reasonable. Jack met Ana Lucia around 11:50 in the airport lounge after checking in, and Sun and Jin's airport cafe scene appeared to be after the 11:15 check-in, based on the white flowers being by her purse on the table.
That being said, I don't trust yet much of what we've been shown in the airport scenes. There seems to be a lot of misdirection re times and events. Even if we could trust the times, we don't know for sure what dates we're seeing.

Also, the Oceanic seating chart does not show Kate until Marshal is revealed, and then shows her seat in Red. It doesn't reveal Rose until Jack's seat is revealed and her seat is in Red too.
This all means something and I have some loosely-formed theories re why you can only access some characters thru others but can't distill them enough to post coherently. I think too it ties in with the ghostly image of Sayid you get from Shannon's seat. From what we have so far, it appears Sayid was in business class, yet he's not shown on the seating chart. Perhaps because he's in the other "group" that's not there??

Have you picked up also on the flight 500 bit?

I am a firm believer that there are bigtime clues on that site.
If you look for my posts, you'll see I am too! - ad nauseum for some here.

[shrike3000]

I think the problems with it seeming like there are 2 planes can somehow tie into something I think was important.

The seeminly throwaway line from Claire about how there are no hair brushes in any of the luggage screams cloning to me.

I think many of the survivors were cloned, and put there are part of this great experiment. Some of the people were not on the plane at all....but their luggage was. Using the hairbrushes they were cloned and dropped in with the other survivors somehow. I don't have it all figured out, but this could be something.

[nastyned]

"there are no hair brushes in any of the luggage screams cloning to me"


Only women would have a hair brush. Why would they need to clone people who were not on the plane but who had luggage on the plane? It isn't realistic to say, in today's world, that a plane took off with a lot of luggage from people who were not on board. If they needed to clone people who were on the plane, they wouldn't need to get some hair from a brush.

[NeillT006]

If they needed to clone people who were on the plane, they wouldn't need to get some hair from a brush.

And it would certainly present some problems in explaining Locke.

N.

[nastyned]

"A few more interesting things pop up on the Oceanic site:

The flight tracker page shows 815 having departed sydney at 14:04, with arrival in LA at 03:16.

The seating chart lists 815 having a departure time of 8:04 landing in LAX 18:16. Two different times."


Apparently they changed the information on the Oceanic site because now (September 9, 2005) the tracking page shows a scheduled departure of 14:15 and an actual departure time of 14:55. The seating chart page lists the departure as 14:55 and arrival of 10:42.

[mrmandid]

Someone posted that Hurley wasnt seen on the plane. He was....he gave the thumbs up to Walt, sat down and read the comic in spanish with the polar bear in it.

[AspenUSMC]

The seeminly throwaway line from Claire about how there are no hair brushes in any of the luggage screams cloning to me.

Wow...what an EXCELLENT observation.

I am leaning WAY HARD towards a cloning theory right now, and that comment of hers...it seemed so important, and they never throw obvious things like that in without them meaning something.

Until reading your post, though, I didn't add two and two together.

I'd bet money that you're right.

[ladylacewing]

ABOUT HURLEY *NOT* BEING SEEN ON THE PLANE:

after the crash, wasn't it Hurley who was handling the check list of "survivors" when he found Ethan Rom? That would be a convienent way to include yourself on a checklist, even if you were not on the plane......

*sighs*

This show is driving me crazy.....pretty soon I will need a vacation to the looney bin myself.....

Could someone tell me if it was HURLEY who first encountered Ethan Rom please?

ALSO - I seem to remember Locke being *carried* onto the plane by some flight attendants? Wasn't thier excuse that they couldn't find thier wheelchair...? Can someone confirm how Locke got on the plane please?

Thanks,
K

[MrsSuper]

Yes Lock was carried on the plane, because they did not have a special lift for him. Then they put his wheelchair in the storage cupboard. Also Hurley was on the plane. He was forced to by 2 tickets by a very rude lady at the airport. He then went in and sat near Michael and Walt. He and Walt looked at eachother and smiled. I am sure that was in Exodus2.

[RORMAST15]

on the oceanic site, if you click the "terms of use" or "privacy statement" links you will notice its run by WDIG=walt disney internet group.

[clayseason1]

I’ve reconstructed a section of the seating from screen caps from the pilot and tabula rasa. Since we know Jack’s seat was in row 23, I numbered the rows from his seat. Some of the passengers aren’t very clear but the pictures are the best I could find.

I initially thought I might be able to reconstruct most of the seating by identifying the redshirts. (See this thread - Redshirts! Redshirts! Who is that redshirt? (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm33.showMes sage?topicID=127.topic).) My thought was if I could identity the people within the surrounding area of our key survivors, I could reconstruct the seating chart.

Although I have been able to place many of the redshirts at the airport, I have yet to place (positively) any of them on the plane.

Here’s Jack’s section of the plane. (I intend to work on the other sections as well.)

http://img492.imageshack.us/img492/7192/seatingchartjack9kz.th.jpg (http://img492.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seatingchartjack9kz.jpg)

A few notes:

Passenger 26 D had the misfortune of hitting the ceiling and later exiting the plane unexpectedly through the open back end.

Passenger 26 H was not in her seat when the turbulence hit and she also suffered the same fate as passenger 26 D. I’m not sure of her assigned seat, but I think the seat I placed her in is the most probable.

Passenger 26 G mysteriously disappeared when the turbulence hit and before the tail section separated.

Passenger 27 G moved up into 26 G after the turbulence but before the tail section separated from the rest of the plane. Unfortunately for 27 G, the move was only a reprieve. Later seat 26 G was ripped out of the plane through the open back end.

[yung23]

wow. a visual seating arrangment, how cool..

[I like to listen]

clayseason1
I like what you have done here.

I still feel Claire's boarding cap, screws up the Jack,Rose, Locke seating arrangement.

img25.imagevenue.com/img....xample.jpg (http://img25.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc154&image=9ea_exodusexample.jpg)

Lets start the continuity error debate again :rollin

.

[clayseason1]

Lets start the continuity error debate again
NO! NO! NO! :eek :rollin

I only included the row number because we were told in the actual episode that Jack was in row 23. (If I'm able to do a graphic seating chart later of the tail section - then I can build it around the other definite seat we were told in an episode - Ana Lucia 42f).

I totally ignored any row or seat number indicated in the screencaps. I constructed the seating chart solely on who was sitting next to each other and seat position relative to other passengers.

I feel confident that this configuration is correct. Now that doesn't mean that TPTB won't insert another row later on. :D

[equinox]

CS1,

I like very much the visual touch you bring to some of these good old favorite problems (extras list, seating arrangement, etc.). Very good work.

As for the seating arrangement, I had given up trying to make sense of it. I know that you know that it's an impossible task to arrive at one global seating arrangement that would reconcile every scene of every episode, and I understand that you're trying to arrive at a consistent seating arrangement based on a limited number of episodes. So just to make sure I understand the rule you are following here, can we understand that you are considering only the plane scenes from The Pilot and Tabula Rasa, plus some facts stated in other episodes in as much as they are not inconsistent with those two episodes? As far as you could tell, do all the scenes in those two episodes look at least internally consistent with each other? Could there be anything at all specifically from the Jack/Rose/Locke scenes (not the other scenes) in Exodus that could be added without being inconsistent with what you already have? (I'm thinking for example of the guy sitting in a G seat a few rows behind Locke and who had already boarded before Locke.)

Some minor details if you want to add them:
- Jack's assigned seat was 23B (not 23A. We can assume that the window seat 23A was empty so that moved there temporarily at some point before finally moving to 23C.)
- I think we can safely assume from the Rose/Jack dialogue that 23E was Bernard's assigned seat ("I'll keep you company until he [comes back from the bathroom]." - the logical seat where Bernard can come back near Rose seems to be 23E).
- 23C was Harold's assigned seat. Not sure if you want to add this information in case 23C over Jack's picture.

[clayseason1]

Hi austrasiel :D

Give me a few minutes and I'll address everything and edit it in. First Jack/Rose/Bernard/Harold seating - doh! I didn't remember about Harold being 23c - so I wasn't sure if Bernard was next to Rose or across the aisle. I'll amend the seating chart and repost here.
Amended chart

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1582/updatedseatchart14vg.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=updatedseatchart14vg.jpg)

Could there be anything at all specifically from the Jack/Rose/Locke scenes (not the other scenes) in Exodus that could be added without being inconsistent with what you already have? (I'm thinking for example of the guy sitting in a G seat a few rows behind Locke and who had already boarded before Locke.)
I know exactly which scene you are talking about. Be right back.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/410/exoduslocke3zc.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exoduslocke3zc.jpg)

The person you see in the background from Locke's boarding scene in exodus is not in a G seat. The angle of the camera can be very deceiving with the seats and rows. That's why it's important to look at as many angles as one can get to help orient the position. The person in the background is actually passenger 27 I. (Count the row from the back panel - he's in the second last row of the section. He appears to be leaning somewhat forward - that is why he appears to be next to the window - but he isn't - he is in the middle seat.
Now compare him to 27 I in the seating chart - remove the blue shirt and straightened the head. I'm fairly certain it's the same person.

So just to make sure I understand the rule you are following here, can we understand that you are considering only the plane scenes from The Pilot and Tabula Rasa, plus some facts stated in other episodes in as much as they are not inconsistent with those two episodes?
I would be happy to get any screencaps from any of the episodes that show the interior of the plane. I built Jack's section around him, and I will try to build other sections around other key survivors. I only remember interior plane scenes from the Pilot, Tabula Rasa, and Exodus. Do you know of any others?

As far as you could tell, do all the scenes in those two episodes look at least internally consistent with each other?
Yes, at least as far as Jack's section of the plane the screen caps appeared to be consistant with one possible exception.

There is a passenger I cannot account for. That would be 26 G. He is in 26 G until the turbulence and then is gone. Passenger 27 G then appears to move up to the 26 G seat. At first I thought that was very inconsistant, but I noticed in one of the turbulence scenes that 27 G was flipped up out of his seat and I couldn't see 26G. It was after that scene that 27 G moved up to 26 G. I still don't know what happened to the original 26G.

[equinox]

The person in the background is actually passenger 27 I.Oh, I'm sure you're right. I was only going from memory. I don't have my DVDs with me. :)

I only remember interior plane scenes from the Pilot, Tabula Rasa, and Exodus.Same here. I think that's it.

[clayseason1]

I think it's quite possible that Claire is 24I. :eek

I believe that man in 24J is the oriental gentleman that boarded the plane close to Claire.

But I'm not sure on either one of those.

[xyqdnl]

listen, guys, lets all chill with the seating arrangement stuff. I know we're all desperate for answers, but if this is being done for anything more than entertainment I think we all just need to think about whether this is worth wasting time on.

Oh geez, I hate saying this kind of stuff because I'm obsessed too, it's just that there's a line and I think we've all crossed it long ago....I know I can't be the only person who has said something like this so this will be my only rant.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

[clayseason1]

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.
No, I'm perfectly capable of ignoring you. :D

[I like to listen]

clayseason1,I totally ignored any row or seat number indicated in the screencaps. I constructed the seating chart solely on who was sitting next to each other and seat position relative to other passengers. I feel confident that this configuration is correct.

Wait, the Claire boarding screencap is very clear. It does have seat numbers visible.

The first line of analysis whould be to go by seat numbers visible.

To ignore all the clues cannot lead to a dogmatic conclusion that this will be the end all seating chart. Scenes are in conflict. ( I smell a frame up :) )

A method could derive at least two(?) seating charts since there is obvious facts that negate one sole chart.

This said, once again I fully respect your efforts, but I will disagree that this will ever be a definitive seating chart, unless (all)facts are reconciled or we get more interior shots in future episodes that clarify seating.

.

[lostmio]

Some people don't like flashbacks, some people don't like Kate, and some people don't like discussions about the seating.
I love 'em all, and CS plainly labelled the thread so those who don't care can pass.

CS: Locke dropped the emergency procedures brochure in the aisle right after they seated him, and Artz was reading one. Since they're sitting on the same plane (in the same seat :lol ), they should be seeing the same brochure. Are they?

[I like to listen]

(in the same seat :lol ),

biscuitmom

You are so coy!
The campers that never say die!
I knew that you would hear the call. :)

.

[lostmio]

A method could derive at least two(?) seating charts since there is obvious facts that negate one sole chart.

ILTL, ANY objective method used to analyze the Exodus boarding scene WILL derive two different seating charts.
But you knew that already, didn't you? You're just trying not to sound too dogmatic yourself...

[I like to listen]

-I know, I must whisper-

[lostmio]

xyqdnl I know we're all desperate for answers
Speak for yourself, I'm desperate for a new episode, more CS visuals, and more ILTL T&S posts.

[clayseason1]

Wait, the Claire boarding screencap is very clear. It does have seat numbers visible.
The first line of analysis whould be to go by seat numbers visible
No, I say no...I am not going to be drawn into that debate about the row and seat numbers - not yet anyway.:b

By ignoring all other clues (at this point) except the visual proof of the row and seat specific to each character and the orientation of that particular seated passenger to his/her surrounding passengers is the best way to develop the seating chart - imo. :D

Jack's section of the plane is the only section that I intend to number with rows and seats - unless the tail section gets some good interior plane shots in its episode. BTW - I didn't number Jack's section until I had it completely filled out.

This said, once again I fully respect your efforts, but I will disagree that this will ever be a definitive seating chart, unless (all)facts are reconciled or we get more interior shots in future episodes that clarify seating.
Well I don't know if I'll come up with a complete integrated chart. I rather doubt it. But I will chart the sections as I see them.

An interesting note on Jack's section. Jack, Rose, Locke, Kate and the Marshal appear to be the only survivors from Jack's section (as depicted in the chart).:eek

[lostmio]

An interesting note on Jack's section. Jack, Rose, Locke, Kate and the Marshal appear to be the only survivors from Jack's section.

Add Charlie, and you've officially crossed over to the Dark Side.

[clayseason1]

Well no, Charlie was in business class when the plane went down and Bernard was in the tail section. I probably should have said - it appears that none of the people seated in Jack's section (as depicted above) when the tail section separated from the plane, survived except Jack, Locke, Rose, Kate and the Marshal.

[lostmio]

Charlie was in business class when the plane went down

Or 1st class, it doesn't matter. Regardless we do have script/visual proof that he was in Jack's section before moving forward. And when he moved forward, he passed Boone & Shannon.

~shrug~ It's possible that Hurley, Michael, Walt, Sun, Jin, Claire, Sawyer, and Artz all called in sick the days that Jack, Kate, Mars, Rose, Charlie, Shannon, and Boone were filming the Exodus scenes. Then the sick group all filmed their parts together.

Oddly the script and the original oceanic site foreshadowed these sick days. The plane interior changed too, within the Exodus episodes, so the prop crew must have been off its feed at the same time. And the editing team either didn't get or didn't read the script, understandable in view of the apparent virus that was going around. Thankfully the Emmy voters cut them some slack.

[clayseason1]

http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/294/businessclassseatchart7lx.th.jpg (http://img347.imageshack.us/my.php?image=businessclassseatchart7lx.jpg)