+ CHAOS THEORY, Synchronicity & Butterfly effect

[sawyerhasbestlines]

“CHAOS THEORY”, Butterfly Effect, Fractals

referenced from: Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick (1987)

Many scientists believe that twentieth century science will be known for only three theories: relativity, quantum mechanics, and chaos. What exactly is chaos? The name "chaos theory" comes from the fact that the systems that the theory describes are apparently disordered, but chaos theory is really about finding the underlying order in apparently random data. The term was coined by the meterorologist Edward Lorenz in 1961.

My thinking is "the numbers" are at the root of chaos and that the show is using CHAOS THEORY as a platform for the show and that the transmission signal is broadcasting a code which begins the butterfly effect. The crashing of the plane may be an illustration for the (Lorenze Attractor) - a double spiral, and that the island itself, is possibly an ever changing fractal.

Read on if you are interested, and I would love some feed back, especially from any Chaos Theorists out there.

THE BUTTERFLY EFFECT

“There's a theory floating around in the world of math/science that chaos is actually ordered. What we perceive to be randomness actually isn't truly random. The central idea is the Butterfly Effect: a butterfly flapping it's wings in China can affect weather patterns in New York City. “

In LOST we see an example of the butterfly effect through the use of a transmitting signal that is broadcasting a set of numbers. Over the years, various recipients have received the signals: Danielle’s research group, and Sam and Leonard from a U.S. Navy listening post. Hurley received the numbers from Leonard’s auditory repetitions in the psychiatric ward. Leonard may have also been creating a “visual matrix” (thanks Neil and Black Dahlia) in the connect four game. Sam continued to extend the numbers by using them in the bean guessing game, as Hurley participated in the continuum by using the numbers in the lottery, and again when the Hurley was covered and broadcasting around the world.

“Butterfly Effect” and butterfly as motif are also on LOST. The most obvious use of the “butterfly effect” in Lost is the increasing sound effect of the flapping of wings. One of the first motif’s is when Charlie is rescuing Jack in the cave, and there is a butterfly. Later, the motif is referenced in the episode: THE MOTH, Locke and Charlie and the chrysalis. In the same way that the signal starts out small in the numbers transmission, the butterfly motif, wing noises, airplane and bird references are expanding on the continuum, auditorily, visually and by use of flashbacks with planes and bird symbolism.

***
“Here is a good example of the basic theories of Chaos. This is a small quote from a paper written by Richard P. Feynman called
"Physicists like to think that all you have to do is say, these are the conditions, now what happens next?"


"'For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the rider was lost;
For want of a rider, a message was lost;
For want of a message the battle was lost;
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost!'


I thought the above was fascinating, you could apply almost every line to an episode!

****

FRACTALS

I believe the LOST island itself is a growing, changing fractal. This would explain the compass not being relevant, and perhaps the triangles on Danielle’s maps, and the potential multi dimensional aspect which has been brought up. read below:

“Mathematically, fractals are pictures that result from iterations of nonlinear equations, usually in a feedback loop. Using the output value for the next input value, a set of points is produced. Graphing these points produces images. Again, by creating a vast number of points using computers to generate those points, mathematicians discovered these wonderfully complex images which were called fractals, a term coined by Benoit Mandelbrot, one of the first to discover and examine these images. Two important properties of fractals are:

* * * * • * * * * self-similarity
* * * * • * * * * fractional dimensions

Self-similarity means that at every level, the fractal image repeats itself. Sierpinski's Triangle demonstrates this quite well: a triangle within smaller triangles within smaller triangles within ever smaller triangles, on and on. Many shapes in nature display this same quality of self-similarity. Clouds, ferns, coastlines, mountains, etc. all possess this feature. Fractional dimension means that a shape is neither 1, 2 or 3 dimensional, but actually may fall between these numbers, being composed of fractions. Mandelbrot calculated that fractals have a fractional dimension between 1 and 2. By studying fractals, mathematicians have a whole new geometry for describing the universe, beyond the boundaries of Euclidean geometry.”

......

SPIRALS, the Lorenze Attractor

I'm still researching this section and am currently editing. In general this area is about spirals since there is a theme of circling and repetition used through the flash-back device. (thank you kierkagard for repetition, drabauer for Memento) The Lorenze Attractor is a double spiral associated with chaos theory. It may provide an illustration to explain the dynamics of the plane coming down and where the rest of the plane is.

Imagine 2 giant swirling vortexes forming from the ocean to the sky, much like a "cosmic toilet flushing" or a double tornado. My thinking is the plane crossed through this, and perhaps the sound of the numbers follow a wave in this spiral structure. (Imagining:) One part of the plane went in one helix, another part in the other. Perhaps the center is calm like tornado and that is why our castaways are reletively unharmed. Another aspect of the Lorenze Attractor is the spirals never cross each other. Whether the spiral brought them to "craphole island" and if the island is on earth, or whether the spiral projected them into another dimension is still a mystery. Also wondering if a theoretical magnetic force relates to the Lorenze Attractor.

......


Let me know what you all think of this, and if you can add to it that would be much appreciated. If any of you can input the transmitted numers into a fractal program, can you post it to see if if looks like the island. Might be interesting.

(Edited title on 4/7, as topic evolves into synchronicity)

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Linking CHAOS THEORIES to other theories on the board:

Between chaos theory and the near-magical world of quantum physics, it was beginning to look like the early sacred geometrists were actually on to something. Concepts such as time travel and miraculous transformations akin to alchemy were suddenly very real. Furthermore, the combination of chaos theory and quantum physics offered a nearly plausible explanation for how magic, witchcraft and psychic phenomena could actually work, at least in theory.

Chaos theory offers tantalizing clues to where all these sacred geometry concepts might have come from in the first place. The brain is clearly a complex system, literally grown from a fractal DNA root, and there is an emerging scientific school of thought that believes the abstract construct we refer to as consciousness is also fractal.

What all this means, simply put, is that our bodies, minds, souls and even our DNA contain the unified blueprint for everything in the universe. If consciousness itself is fractal, with a mathematical base, then it stands to reason that these shapes and structures are literally hardwired into whatever it is that makes people people, whether they surface in dreams, visions or simply as a product of thinking about stuff too much.

Of course, the flipside of this notion is that — in theory — if someone managed to solve the probably very simple equation that underlies all this mathematical complication, they could in theory create a computer model of everything — including your brain and all its dirty little secrets and every lousy thing you ever did or might ever do.

LINKS:
www.rotten.com/library/oc...-geometry/ (http://www.rotten.com/library/occult/sacred-geometry/)


ETA 10/7/05: the above link I'm honored to mention is provided by one of our newest members Egocomplex, who wrote it. (unbeknownst to me at the time) How about that!:D

[Wynter Zera]

I give this theory a thumbs up! I think we could all benefit from gazing at the chaos theory.

http://xs18.xs.to/pics/05092/thumbsup.gif

[DontWannaBLost]

sawyerhbl, THIS IS WONDERFUL! I can see how everything you said fit into what we have seen (and hope to see) so far!!

I think the butterfly effect can be understood by a wide range of viewers (I think the show must have a somewhat "simple" explanation to keep its ~20 million viewers each week) and the more advanced science required for the fractals/spirals can be appreciated as well!

I'm particularly intrigued by the spirals...and when you described the concept, I immediately thought it was a plausible explanation for the "monster". IMO, the way the trees moved resembled the "disturbance" you see when two waves of water overlap in the very shallow edge of a beach---the water in either wave appears relatively calm, with a bit of turbulence where they meet.

To tie the spirals to what we have seen on LOST (apart from what shbl has pointed out above)...it could explain why
1) Vincent disappears at times into the woods (he gets "sucked" into the other spiral for awhile)
2) how Hurley made it back to Danielle's old bunker so quickly (or at least as quickly as Charlie did) even after going however much further they had to go to get the battery
3) and ties in nicely to the theme alluded to by Sawyer reading "A Wrinkle In Time" on the beach (if that's what it was)!

[yung23]

I'm sorry I never paid attention to how deep you are !
This is great stuff, it does seem to fit.

it even links to some illuminati ideas..

I am told by fellow employees and family, I have taken this show too far, they keep telling me it's just a show, stop reading so much into it. But wow, then I read a post like yours.


I myself am stuck on the entity idea, but the fractal theory is awesome as it explains the shape of the mountains even.

But what of the hatch ?
so many questions.

it would be interesting to see how the numbers fit in.
I used to have a fractal making program, you could put NUMBERS in, and see how the equaton looks as as fractal.

[mspibb]

nice.

[jaystao]

Lets all join the synchronicity high way and see where we end up! Watch out for those butter flies though.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

DontwannaB,

I'll try to find more spiral info - (my brains a little fried today, but we've got 6 weeks ahead of us. I like your ideas relating to the monster, I never considered that.

---------------------

Yung,

I'd be interested to hear your take on the 23, Illuminati stuff. Could you link a thread?

[yung23]

Jays Tao... is that tao as in Lao-tzu Tao Teh Ching ?

there is something formless yet complete
that existed before heavan and earth
how still ! how empty !
Dependant on nothing, unchanging,
All pervading, unfailing.
One may think of it as the mother of all things under heaven.
I do not know its name.
But I call it " Meaning "
If i had to give it a name, I should call it " The Great "


this is from the book synchronicity by C. Jung

in the same book you can find chaos theories...

its all related...

this will expand.

we're on to you JJ

[sawyerhasbestlines]

quote -

"Lets all join the synchronicity high way and see where we end up! Watch out for those butter flies though"

Especially those mechanical ones with 15 foot wingspans that live in the trees. ;)


- Anymore thoughts on synchronicity?

- Listened to good program on NPR today regarding parallel universes and time relating to choices and that there is no free will according to quantum physicists.

[Coyote1066]

I've actually seen this on the Twilight Zone (not the old one or the most recent...sometime in the late '80s I think). A guy who's dad was killed in WWII accidentally figures out a way to communicate via radio back to the '40s. He sends a warning about the U-boat that sunk his dad's transport. After he's done he goes to bed and when he wakes up he finds himself in Nazi Amerika...end of story.

I think the closing voice over says:

"'For want of a nail, the shoe was lost;
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost;
For want of a horse, the rider was lost;
For want of a rider, a message was lost;
For want of a message the battle was lost;
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost!"

Just because it's been done before doesn't mean this isn't a good theory.

[cccourt]

.....and here I tht Sawyerhtbl was just another pretty face!
ccc:)

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Coyote,

Chaos theory was a hot topic in the late 80's when the book came out - especially on college campuses.... (I'm dating myself here.) So I'm glad to hear Twilight Zone picked up on it early on.

Since then, I'm told there have been a few movies made using chaos theory as their platform. One recent blockbuster (with butterfly I think in it's title), but my bf says it didn't really illustrate the theory well.

After watching the last epi, he and I were discussing the show and he said "giant cosmic toilet flushing" and for some reason I remembered the book from the 80's and spent the next day thinking about it.

Anyway, fun to think about. :D

[Homer Noodleman]

Non-mathematicians who blow the Chaos Theory all out of proportion should be lined up against the wall and shot. It is as bad as writers endlessly mixed up over what entropy really is.

[yung23]

my thoughts on it...

it proves god exists, for me anyway.

The line between choices is odd though, imagine someone destined to change the fate of the earth... ie : jesus..

Choose's NOT what was destined,
can anyone stop the will of god. ?

Is there choice at all ?

No. it is all pre-programmed, he knew the ingredients and how to bake the cake.

syncronicity is, in my opinion, the higher being tao, god, allah

POINTING us in its ideal direction.
We are all "its" creation.
It WANTS us to survive, so it has created " prophets "

I BET A BILLION DOLLARS, every one of these " Prophets "
suffered from COMPLETE syncronicity.... IE :
Lightning flashing nearly everytime you ask " God " a question IN YOUR HEAD.

I'm not playing down jesus, please don't be offended ANYONE.

I'm just trying to give an idea of the overwellming feeling given by the experience of syncronicity, that TELLS YOU YOUR RIGHT.

LIKE HURLEY TELLING BUDDY IT WAS THE NUMBERS,
and then a guy jumps and falls past the window.

TOTALLY ACAUSAL.

meaning the guy upstairs had NOTHING to do with hurley\

but was used as an acausal connecting principle.
It gave viewers the feeling of " Hurleys right "
imagine Hurley's feelings at that point.


more to come, my wife calls...damn !

[yung23]

hey homer, are you saying sawyer should be shot or do you like his take ?

[spooky]

That was a very interesting read, shbl. I especially like the idea of the spiral, as I think they're definitely using that as a narrative structure. Thanks for posting.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Hey yung,

Regarding choices.

I think you are talking about free will versus destiny??

**
I think the writers are using chaos theory as a platform for the show. EACH CHOICE BRINGS ON A SUBSEQUENT CHAIN OF EVENTS (butterfly event). On the platform the characters are struggling between notions of (free-will) and (destiny). Locke is in the free-will camp, illustrating that one has the ability to exercise free-will and thus create one's own luck. The widow in Australia represents the camp of (destiny.) This was illustrated when she said the numbers had nothing to do with her accident and her foot.
**

Example: If there are parallel universes and Yung23 in this world chooses today to take the car to drive to the beach, it may mean Yung23 in another world decided to ride his bike. Yung23 who rode his bike met another bike rider who hooked him up with a new job. Yung23 in this world drove his car, came home and logged on here. Both are real, but each choice creates a new series of subsequent events.

Here's where it's tricky, so hang in here.

All moments in time in all of yung23's infinate worlds are now and real, there is no linear past and future the way we think of it, therefore all the decisions that all the yung23's make in all the worlds from his birth to death have in a sense already happened.

Therefore, in your language, you'd say it has to do with Jesus and fate. In this language, everything has already happened in all it's infinitude, so even though IT FEELS like we have the ability to make free-will choices we actually wouldn't in all it's "quantumness".

RELATING IT TO LOST:

These are the core questions that are the thruline in LOST. Locke is always presenting choices and is of the mindset that one creates one's own luck: (free-will). In contrast, the widow in Australia believed the numbers were not cursed, and that she would have lost her foot anyway in the accident. She was in the (destiny) camp.

Regarding numbers: Once the numbers began transmitting, a series of subsequent and interconnected events happened: (butterfly effect).

**

At this point, it would be good to take a look at what characters are in the (free-will) camp; and what characters are in the (destiny) camp. Because if there is any divisions to made within the group, I think this is where the dividing line is drawn.

[Wynter Zera]

Frequency is another great movie that deals with this sort of thing.

[yung23]

i'm not sure what points we're trying to make here anymore.
I'm not connecting with lost really.

I beleive JJ and co and simply toying with all these philosophies, but how could they expect a general audience to CARE or even grasp a storyline involving such deep topics.

Jung himself could never come a conclusion re: synchronicity, and it drove him somewhat mad.
as it drove others mad, hmmmm....

maybe the curse is there somehow.

This number 23 is what started my sync. interest in it in LOST.
They are obviously hinting at these ideas, but I don't think they will ever depend on them.

he sure likes the "odd" things in life though, eh Damon ?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

quote:

"how could they expect a general audience to CARE or even grasp a storyline involving such deep topics."


There was a movie recently starring Ashton Kusher, The Butterfly Effect. It attempted to use this principle. I never saw it, my bf said they didn't do a good job with it, so maybe you are right. But I do think Lost is using chaos theory as a platform and that they have figured out how to make it mainstream.

[yung23]

(But I do think Lost is using chaos theory as a platform and that they have figured out how to make it mainstream.)

how I would love that. I wish more of the world knew or cared about these ideas and sciences etc..
most people don't even know how thier friggin TV works.
(I even wish they told people what math was REALLY about in school, if I knew it could be used to explain the universe I would have paid more attention)

I am completely open to discussing more sync. though sawyer.

its odd that in the same book as Jungs theories on the subject, I can find such relating quotations to lost..

If you have insight, says Chuang-tzu " you use your inner eye, your inner ear, to pierce to the heart of things, and have no need for intellectual knowledge "

the inner eye thing got me.

he also talks about NUMBERS !!

It is generally beleived that numbers were invented or thought out by man, and therefore nothing but concepts of quantities, containing nothing that was not previously put into them by the human intellect. But it is equally possible that numbers were found or discovered. In that case they are not only concepts but something more, autonomous entities which somehow contain more than just quantities.
Unlike concepts, they are based not on any psychic conditions but on the quality of being themselves,
on a " son-ness" that cannot be expressed by an intellectual concept.
Under these conditions they might easily be endowed with qualities that still yet to be discovered.

neat stuff eh ?

I would pay dollars to donuts for a picture of Damons/ JJ's/ Fury's private home reading reference libraries.


edit still reading the book here...

he also says " it is the predestined instrument for creating order, or for APPREHENDING an already existing, but still unknown, regular arrangement or "orderness"...

it may well be the most primitive element of order in the human mind, seeing the numbers 1 to 4 occur with the greatest frequency and have the widest incidence...


now this is just me thinking why 23 ?

so the highest occurance of TWO digits would be

12
23
34

...

[jaystao]

Chaos theory and spirals are the theme of the cult movie 'PI' in which its protagonist is a genious mathmetician who wants to use the spiralling paterns in living matrix's to predict the stock market which he sees as resembling a living entity. (there was more but this film has already come up in another post so I edited it, sorry)... Anyway thumbs up to this thread

Eastern spirituality and philosophy has long forshadowed modern scientific concepts such as quantum physics and chaos theory. Budist teaching, which revolves around the continual evolution of the soul and body towards an eventual nirvana/enlightenment states quite often that "you are everybody". As the Buda or enlightenment lies within all things/people.

PS: For Yang - Tao is the first three letters of my last name.

Also watch out for those ants that if you step on make your grand father cease to exist.

[Wynter Zera]

Eastern spirituality and philosophy has long forshadowed modern scientific concepts such as quantum physics and chaos theory. Budist teaching, which revolves around the continual evolution of the soul and body towards an eventual nirvana/enlightenment states quite often that "you are everybody". As the Buda or enlightenment lies within all things/people.

You all everybody? Sorry, couldn't resist....

The idea that numbers have meanings far beyond just counting exists in most religions.

[photosbydeb18]

i think we cracked the code!!!
---------------------------------------------------

Eastern spirituality and philosophy has long forshadowed modern scientific concepts such as quantum physics and chaos theory. Budist teaching, which revolves around the continual evolution of the soul and body towards an eventual nirvana/enlightenment states quite often that "you are everybody". As the Buda or enlightenment lies within all things/people. -- jay tao

-----------

i never thought of the budist thing, and 'you all everybody', maybe charlie will be the island budha/priest!!!

i love this thread! i love the ideas, thinking, discussion, and everything!
i thought no one knew /or cared about fractals, string theory, spirals. i am not alone!!!!!

[spooky]

Locke is in the free-will camp, illustrating that one has the ability to exercise free-will and thus create one's own luck. The widow in Australia represents the camp of (destiny.) This was illustrated when she said the numbers had nothing to do with her accident and her foot.

Hey, shtbl. I have to respectfully disagree here. I think Locke and the widow’s views on destiny/free will are not very different.

I agree that Locke is constantly giving people choices and that it’s an important element of the show. And he certainly behaves as though he believes he is making his own choices. But Locke also mentions luck to Claire and says: he believes in lots of things. He also seems to believe that is was his destiny to be on the island, that he was fated to be there.

Likewise, the widow believes that certain events are just random, or fated, like the car crash. But she also tells Hurley: You make your own luck, Mr. Reyes. Don’t blame it on the damn numbers. You’re looking for an excuse that doesn’t exist.

Locke and the widow, like most of us, believe both in destiny/fate and free will. We experience random events, and we believe we make choices, it’s a pragmatic view that melds with our sense of reality. Whether that sense of reality holds up under a strictly scientific understanding is still debatable. Not all scientists/quantum physicists reject the idea of free-will. In any case, my feeling is that the creators/writers of Lost are more interested in the metaphysical/moral questioning of free-will vs. fate, rather than a scientific questioning of the problem.

As an aside: an interesting book about the parallels between modern physics and eastern philosophy is the Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra. I haven’t read it a long time, but I would recommend it to anyone interested in that type of thing.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Quote:

"But Locke also mentions luck to Claire and says: he believes in lots of things. He also seems to believe that is was his destiny to be on the island, that he was fated to be there. "

Thank you Spooky, I was hoping someone would bring their input to this. Good points on Locke believing his destiny was to be there on the island. It seems I went out on a limb and forgot about that. Thanks for reeling me in. I think there is a little part of me that is hoping or wants to believe that Locke had a hand in getting to the island. But we haven't seen anything so far that lends itself to that.

What are your thoughts on the widow's addition to the plot? Did she re-affirm anything for you or change your mind?

[spooky]

The widow’s line, “You’re looking for an excuse that doesn’t exist,” seems pretty important. The idea of free will is tied to idea of taking responsibility for one’s actions. It seems to me that Hurley is blaming the numbers as an excuse, rather than taking personal responsibility for something he did (putting his family through a lot recently?). He feels guilty about something and instead of facing it, he’s reading random ‘bad-luck’ events as proof of his guilt, or as punishment. As Charlie indirectly points out, it’s a pretty immature, narcissistic way of looking at things. Hurley and Sawyer seem to have something in common. Of course, this could apply to other characters, as well.

As far as the plot goes, I don’t know, I think her character acts more as a counter-argument to Hurley’s beliefs. Her contribution to the plot has to do with the Sam and maybe Lenny hearing the numbers on a radio transmission. A Navy listening post, a radio tower, Danielle, an underground container? I have almost no idea where all that’s going.

[yung23]

bumping to page one, i like this thread too...
no one reads page 2.

[jaystao]

The Tao text by Lao Tzu also discusses qualities of leadership. John Locke particularly resonates the kind of leader that is exemplified by Tsu.

The existence of the leader who is wise is barely known to those he leads. He acts without unnecessary speech, so that the people say, "It happened of its own accord".

In fact the tao te ching, written by Lao Tzu pretty much talks about everything, but then again, so does everything else....

Knowledge and experience are both real, but they are different realities, and their relationship is frequently made complex by what distinguishes them, one from the other. When they are used according to that which is appropriate to the situation, we may develop that way of life which enables us to pass through the barrier of such complexities. We may have knowledge of "Tao", but Tao itself can only be
experienced.

[trinabobina]

Chaos theory, taoist thought, I love it all. It reminds me of a little book I read once...

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes,"said Piglet, "Rabit's clever."
"And he has Brain."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brain."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."

my head is full of fluff and stuff, but I must say that this thread is a wonderful analysis.

[yung23]

hey sawyerhasthebestlines

Of course, the flipside of this notion is that — in theory — if someone managed to solve the probably very simple equation that underlies all this mathematical complication....

are you talking about the GUT here?

the grand unified theory ?


if so.... I've always thought that someone would become a God at the very moment of complete comprehension...

[FWC2210]

I saw "The Butterfly Effect" and thought it was well done and I really liked it.Some of the more intense scenes seemed quite realistic.

On a side note, anyone that's read any books on gambling has probably read about Chaos Theory.To examine it when comparing it to Craps (dice) you really get the idea.Most people probably don't give it a second thought but at a craps table, the tiniest little thing can cause large changes, which in turn trigger more changes, and so on.

[jaystao]

Its been postulated that the island or something on the island is able to influence the weather. If butterflies can cause hurricanes then surely polar bears can cause a local tornado to bring down an airplane 30'000 feet in the air? I had suggested that there was an air born spore or pollen on the island that in some way was a living entity (or one part of some kind of elemental equilibrium).

All things are microcosms of the Tao;
the world a microcosmic universe,
the nation a microcosm of the world,
the village a microcosmic nation;
the family a village in microcosmic view,
and the body a microcosm of one's own family;
from single cell to galaxy.

Rain is caused by small particles of dirt and pollen in the air which have an electromagnetic stickiness that attracts water particles. The water particles come together and attain mass producing rain drops. These spores/pollen could in some way be communicating creating some kind of hive mind or social order. Lock is slowing becoming at one with the Tao of the island (its nature). It can communicate with him perhaps on a marginal basis. Thus he knows when it is going to rain (aside from looking up at the sky and seeing rain clouds of coarse).

He who follows the natural way
is always one with the Tao.
He who is virtuous may experience virtue,
whilst he who loses the natural way
is easily lost himself.

This could also explain his heightened senses and possibly other phenomena. If this spore/pollen (radiation?) had enough compiled density it could cause fluctuations in the local whether patterns thus causing the temporal whether conditions of both disasters (the plane and the French expedition). Perhaps even extend beyond the island to create strange chaos fluctuations in other parts of the globe.

PS little steps before one leaps of the cliff.

PPS: I'm just speculating that if chaos theory were being applied what kind of force, if any, might result in its application. I've been interested in forces on the island since the whole duality principle was brought up. Chaos theory applies to phenomenon in relation to one another, but there must be some kind of effect or phenomena or 'will' which is causing the results (that is everything on LOST) to happen in the way it is happening. If it is God, the mind, time or the polar bears then o.k, but just what is it that makes this space, this moment, this d@mn island so special as to be the nexus for all these random occurrences anyhow?!

[photosbydeb18]

i was browsing through the PBS site, and i found that tonight (Tuesday), they will be re-airing a great nova episode on string theory. at least that is my local station.
check out the PBS web site to find out if its airing where you live!
here's a program description:

Nova
Einstein’s Dream
Tuesday, March 8, 8:00pm
CHANNEL 25 (WVIZ/PBS)
In the last few years, excitement has grown among scientists as they've pursued a revolutionary new approach to unifying nature's forces. To the uninitiated, string theory is totally mind-boggling. But physicist Brian Greene has a rare gift for conveying physics in vivid everyday images, a gift that has turned his recent book, The Elegant Universe, into a mighty bestseller. Now Greene brings his talent, youth and vitality to television for the first time in this special three-hour presentation. A highly innovative, Matrix-like production style makes the surreal world of string theory spring to life on the screen. ----

[sawyerhasbestlines]

quote -

"If this spore/pollen (radiation?) had enough compiled density"

Yesterday I read an article that certain amounts of radiation can cure spinal cord injuries on rats. It was from CNN, in 1996, and the hope was to use radiation therepy eventually on humans. (I posted part of this in the Locke character forum.)

Anyway, it got me thinking about Locke's ability to walk; and the fact that in his old bedroom he had a geiger counter and a muscle stimulator device. So my train of thought is that Locke was using radiation therepy to fix his "condition." I'm wondering if the island produces a small enough amount that cured Locke, but isn't making any of them sick.

Regarding the (spirals/tornadoes). What if the spirals are going in 2 directions: one spiral to the island, the other away from the island. As you say, this could account for some of the strange weather phenomena. Maybe it could even account for the pilot being sucked up into the air. Or maybe your "spores" are in the rain.

[DontWannaBLost]

Wow! This thread has really taken off and explored connections and tangents to so many possibilities...

I'm not a student of religion or philosophy, but am intrigued by the notion of free will/choice and fate/destiny, particularly in relation to Locke.

IMO, he seems to internalize the "luck" and outcome of the circumstances he's dealt as if they were all a matter of choice. The scene where he helps Charlie kick his heroine and in return the island "gives" Charlie the guitar exemplifies how Locke can present a situation and manipulate the variables (heroine and guitar) as a choice rather than fate...the heroine was gonna run out and the guitar was already in plain sight...Locke's intervention only accelerated the inevitable.

The idea of residual island radiation curing Locke's paralysis is also interesting...but wouldn't it take awhile of being on the island? I guess I always just thought being thrown from the plane kinda knocked his spinal column back into place...I'm sure there is more to it than that, though:rolleyes

SHBL, I definitely envisioned the spirals going in opposite directions...maybe sometimes when they interact they create the "monster", other times they create rain, and other times they create a portal into the other spiral! I don't recall, but it seems like the rain appeared after (or maybe before) the monster in many of the jungle encounters.

[lacenaire]

Hello

I am glad i've been reading this message board.
I'be reading most of the theories and I think in some way the soundest ones can be interconnected.

The one I think is closer to the real thing is the one by neillt006. Namely everything we see in the plot is basically the display of a multiple personality disorder.

But here comes your theory that draws on caos theory, fractals and spirals. I believe that those laws of physics apply to the realm of neurology and will be the way of explaining in the near future how the brain works and associates ideas and feelings. I think that the relations between the alters and all the layers of superimposed connections and memory levels that the alters share could be perfectly explained applying those laws of physics.

Let me know how far out I've gone with this, lol

Cheers

[lacenaire]

Only one more thing

Aristotle said that if we came to understand how the mind works we will then know the misteries of the universe.
Know yourself was the motto of greek philosophers.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Hi DontwannaBLost

Locke's intervention only accelerated the inevitable.


Agreed - and I'm intrigued by what his motivation is.
-----
I definitely envisioned the spirals going in opposite directions...maybe sometimes when they interact

- The particular kind of spirals I'm referring to, never interact. (lorenz attractor) But, if they were a different type, maybe they would.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I believe that those laws of physics apply to the realm of neurology and will be the way of explaining in the near future how the brain works and associates ideas and feelings.

I did find a website, that relates chaos theory to individuals and their pschological makeup. However, that was not my intention when I put this post together.

When I put this together, I was hoping the discussion would generate some conversation about synchronicity relating to the transmission of the numbers and it's its causal effects regarding the plane, who's on the plane, how they crashed and survived, etc.

Also if there is a sickness, determining it's source location and it's rate and speed of distribution and if it could be contained.

But I'm open to this going in a whole other direction, I just don't know if I can contribute or am capable of responding to other kinds of questions.

[rtejerof]

DO U KNOW WHAT I THNK?? JJ DOESN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO YET... HE HASNT' FINISHED THE STORY... BUT GUYS... I GOTTA TELL YOU SOMETHIN'... WE GOT TALENT HERE... ALL THIS THEORIES ARE GREAT... AND JJ IS USING ALL THIS THEORIES... (OF COURSE, HE THAUGH ALL THIS FIRST!) FOR MAKING THE BEST FINAL FOR LOST. THE DREAMING THEORY IS REALLY GOOD... THE COMMA... ALL THIS IS GOOD. BUT I JUST HOPE THAT "SIMPLE" IT WILL NOT BE THE WORD THAT DEFINE THIS GREAT SERIE... PEACE

***SORRY FOR MY HORRIBLE ENGLISH***

[jaystao]

Sawyerhasbest lines. You may find this interesting but I kinda rushed it so it’s a bit uncoordinated. Concerning the I-ching. Ancient Chinese divination method that follows certain Taoist principles and has influenced many areas of modern science such as mathematics, physics, and psychology. Of note it was instrumental in developing the ideas of synchronicity and chaos theory, since it used various means of probability to gain numbers that would guide ones actions in relation to certain events. It was used by the philosopher Jung to develop many of his theoretical analysis and it must be noted was also influential to Jung in treating various states of mental illness particularly schizophrenia (side note for matrix/freud fans and disconect theory).

The I-ching is not really fortune telling, rather it is a device to find ones moment in time and what direction one should take to better ones ‘flow’ from that moment to the next. Because the practitioner takes an active part in his destined coarse he literally makes the outcomes presented in the I-Ching so, and defines it thus by his own intention/interpretation.

The flow or ‘journey’ is based on certain elemental relations of Chinese thought, these are Earth, Water, wood, fire and metal. These elements are the flow in which one progresses from one stage of life to the next and can represent certain crucial moments to ones inner being. For more information check these sights out.

www.links.net/vita/spirit/iching/pkdick.html (http://www.links.net/vita/spirit/iching/pkdick.html)
pacificcoast.net/~wh/Index.html#Translations (http://pacificcoast.net/~wh/Index.html#Translations)

Anyway since the numbers could represent some kind of probability matrix and since each number is within the field of the I-ching, (1-64) as an after thought I did a reading on each number using this link.

www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#8 (http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#8)

Just to see where the numbers would lead if they were a reading of the I-ching. The following is only a vague attempt so there maybe errors in the telling or more to what is told, also it is only half the reading as I didn’t bother to add the type of fortune that is given to the reading (as a luck factor is added by throwing three coins each with a possible outcome).

4: THE JUDGMENT

* * * * YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
* * * * It is not I who seek the young fool;
* * * * The young fool seeks me.
* * * * At the first oracle I inform him.
* * * * If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
* * * * If he importunes, I give him no information.
* * * * Perseverance furthers.

* * * * IMAGE:A spring wells up at the foot of the mountain:
* * * * The image of YOUTH.
* * * * Thus the superior man fosters his character
* * * * By thoroughness in all that he does.


8: THE JUDGMENT

* * * * HOLDING TOGETHER brings good fortune.
* * * * Inquire of the oracle once again
* * * * Whether you possess sublimity, constancy,
persaverence.
* * * * Then there is no blame.
* * * * Those who are uncertain gradually join.
* * * * Whoever come too late
* * * * Meets with misfortune.

* * * * IMAGE: On the earth is water:
* * * * The image of HOLDING TOGETHER.
* * * * Thus the kings of antiquity
* * * * Bestowed the different states as fiefs
* * * * And cultivated friendly relations
* * * * With the feudal lords.


15.* * * * THE JUDGMENT

* * * * MODESTY creates success.
* * * * The superior man carries things through.

* * * * IMAGE: Within the earth, a mountain:
* * * * The image of MODESTY.
* * * * Thus the superior man reduces that which is too
much, And augments that which is too little.
* * * * He weighs things and makes them equal.

16.THE JUDGMENT

* * * * ENTHUSIASM. It furthers one to install helpers
* * * * And to set armies marching.

* * * * IMAGE: Thunder comes resounding out of the earth:
* * * * The image of ENTHUSIASM.
* * * * Thus the ancient kings made music
* * * * In order to honor merit,
* * * * And offered it with splendor
* * * * To the Supreme Deity,
* * * * Inviting their ancestors to be present.

23. THE JUDGMENT

* * * * SPLITTING APART. IT does not further one
* * * * To go anywhere.

* * * * IMAGE: The mountain rests on the earth:
* * * * The image of SPLITTING APART.
* * * * Thus those above can ensure their position
* * * * Only by giving generously to those below.


* * * * 42: THE JUDGMENT
* * * *
* * * * INCREASE. It furthers one
* * * * To undertake something.
* * * * It furthers one to cross the great water.

* * * * Wind and thunder: the image of INCREASE.
* * * * Thus the superior man:
* * * * If he sees good, he imitates it;
* * * * If he has faults, he rids himself of them.

Its fairly ambiguous but a few bits did seem familiar. The only bit I really like is the end, where it says he must cross the great water to further himself. I had a few thoughts on it as a whole but I’ll leave it for future interpretation. I like it mainly because it’s a simple and fun explanation of what the numbers could mean.

If the numbers and there effect were spiralling from the island perhaps a counter effect is slowly spiraling back as you suggested.

I had a multiple world theory based on probability and logic conundrums dealing with this but I'll post it later.

[lacenaire]

E = m c(^2)

What would happen if we replaced c by G ??

I dont' know about physics, please anyone knows what this would imply, or is it totally absurd?

[yung23]

bump

If the reasoning for this thread is still unclear, follow this link to Jungian theory, it is very much along the lines of what is happening on our island, in a psycho-analytical sort of way..

www.bsu.edu/classes/magra...sld007.htm (http://www.bsu.edu/classes/magrath/CREATION/sld007.htm)

sorry must go now..

I'll be back to make further poitns to anyone interested.
sawyers still with me i think.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Yung,

I'm still with you, but somehow I lost my post count, avatar, ez support button, and am trying to figure out what the h*#) is going on.

Thanks for keeping this alive.

[yung23]

okay that was a bad link, don't look much further, its a typical off the deep end cult kind of site. I just wanted a basic explaination of primitive Jungian theory, what is written is pretty close.

Are you still wondering why Jungian, what does it have to do with lost ?
Maybe nothing, I have simply become fixated on someone from the show, and their take on Jungs theories as a base for an underlying plot, a way to connect the seemingly un-connected.

We have seen many examples of synchronicity at work: from the rain, to the guy falling past the window, to walt and the bird, to the polar bear(s!), to the casual showing up of Locke during ket events, man I can go on and on if I use Jungian ideas....
to Jack and his father..
Sawyer and the boar, holy shat.....it keeps going...

c'mon help me people, don't be so afraid of the un-provable science's !

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Are you still wondering why Jungian, what does it have to do with lost ?

I think it's great you are looking at Lost through a jungian eye. And synchronicity is a chaos theory thing and a jungian thing.

Besides the heavy symbolism, and synchronicity there is another jungian theme: Through the flashbacks, it's a way of seeing each character's personal mythology. It's the way they've scripted their lives and their viewpoint. Therefore, it's entirely possible that it's also factually inaccurate, but still a very real experience for the "soul" who will fall into its archetype and associated complexes.

[yung23]

bumping for our tarot card person, maybe they can tie in some of this info..
info ?

[jaystao]

No tarot readings here sorry. But this is interesting.

According to the iterating principle, when the values fed into an equation are themselves the results of that equation's previous calculation, an infinitely variegated yet ordered and self-similar pattern emerges. In terms of human endeavor this iterative process becomes one of recursion, the notion of returning to a position to enable a kind of post-modern reflexivity; in theorizing human sciences for example, this would mean the ability of a theory, as it were, 'to look at itself, yet again, in a new light, for the first time'.

Given the above implications of chaos theory, it may be possible to alter the gestalt of human thought on planet Earth by relatively small interventions, rather than wholesale revolutions on the scale envisaged by the revolutionaries of the Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries. If we are able to create a global environment of tolerance of difference or of Otherness, and put into action positive social strategies which can alter the balance of human activity on the planet to foster emancipation and conviviality rather than destructiveness and greed, then it is not necessary to create homogeneous socio-political structures which negate regional, ethnic, cultural and other differences.

In other words, the meta narratives of modernism can be transformed into a multitude of micronarratives, which nevertheless cohere into an harmonious and co-operative whole. These small narratives take place firstly at the level of the individual, then the group, community and upwards to other macro-levels of nations, corporations and their ex-pressions in 'meta-entities' such as the United Nations and international agreements (e.g. GAT -- the Global Tariffs and Trade agreement).
Chaos and Creativity (http://theparty.netraver.org.za/chaos.html)

So chaos theory maybe the social template for LOST among other things. Think of the survivors of the island as representatives of some new social revolution and understanding eh?

Also the numbers are a spiraling microcosm of some greater macrocosmic equation, and by slowly infiltrating and assimilating other probability structures bring such structures into the formulation of this macrocosm equation/structure. These structures eventually meet at a single event, nexus point, suggesting that the plane crash and the events on the island span far greater then what might be suggested (the castaways are not as isolated as they think and actions and previous interactions have far greater consequences). Indeed that there is a co-evolution to events (the plane crash was caused by several multiplicitic phenomena attaining synchronicity but arriving from different tangents). People using the numbers (which may stem from outside our linear time/reality) are inadvertently putting themselves and those effected by the consequences of the numbers into this multiplistic equation, which in its formulation is offering free tickets on the syncroncicity high way of flight 815 and the LOST island. But there maybe those able to manipulate this equation by placing themselves in the vortex of this random order. In which they may be able to foretell its direction by seeing the repeating patterns that have come before. Indeed the numbers themselves maybe an attempt at this. By being ordered from lower to higher there might be an original manipulation into the outcome of this macro cosmic equation (by subtly manipulating the microcosm or by some outside intervention aware of this Chaos spun web of events).

Any way thats my yada yada yada for today, I gotta go to work.....

[thoughtform]

Wow Jaystao, I'm impressed. That was amazing. It was only a couple of paragraphs, but I'll be thinking on it for awhile. Sounds very interesting, there is definately some sort of synchronicty dealing with all aspects of the story. Doesn't Jung say that by becoming aware of the synchronicities around us we would lose our sense of seperateness from other and see the connectedness of everything, i.e. we are all one?

[jaystao]

The quotes are fine. The stuff I wrote was unformulated, just free thought, so it's confusing and the wording is a bit off. But slowly I think something is forming. I was interested in an idea of a 'web' like pattern being formed by the events, each strand an event that connects to another. I'd like to know more about string theory.

I don't know that much on Jung, ask Yung23 for that stuff. Though I was interested in what he had to say about shadows and anime/anima however because I suspect that behavior and the 'others' are associated with this somehow.

Hope you get lost in your thoughts.....

[sawyerhasbestlines]

These structures eventually meet at a single event, nexus point, suggesting that the plane crash and the events on the island span far greater then what might be suggested (the castaways are not as isolated as they think and actions and previous interactions have far greater consequences).

Yup. That's exactly how I'm thinking. One starting point - "nexus" with a series of at first seemingly unrelated events (sort of a domino effect or butterfly effect). At first everything seems unrelated and disjointed (or chaotic) because the island seems contained and myopic. But looking at it in a bigger perspective beyond the island and their time on the island, a pattern emerges. It's expressed through the synchronicity of the numbers, stylistically through the flashbacks, and with other characters co-appearing within the flashbacks.

People using the numbers (which may stem from outside our linear time/reality) are inadvertently putting themselves and those effected by the consequences of the numbers into this multiplistic equation, which in its formulation is offering free tickets on the syncroncicity high way of flight 815 and the LOST island.

Nice way of framing that. Great way of conveying the point. I think in visual terms so I "see" it all in a big web pattern that is difficult to articulate in the written word. Thank you on that.

But there maybe those able to manipulate this equation by placing themselves in the vortex of this random order. In which they may be able to foretell its direction by seeing the repeating patterns that have come before.

Yes. This implies that "the others" are the manipulators and that Danielle has either always known that the transmission of the numbers have some kind rippling manipulative effect, or she figured it out later. I would like to know which.

How long was Danielle on the island before she changed the numbers on the transmission? Was it right away or did it take a few years?

[yung23]

cool, you guys have really understood all this.
there is a huge difference between coincidence and synchronicity and all you posting seem to know that difference.

good points, I like the Jung quote regarding seeing the connections in everything, we are all connected VERY finely.
and because of the way thoughform wrote " we are all one ",
now I see what " you all everybody " means.


Locke must see all this Jungian synchro stuff, as he can see the phenomenom happening even with the rain. I always thought there was more to that than him simply smelling/ hearing it coming. he's in tune with the island the same way those cursed by synchronicity are in tune with life...
just a little bit more than normal... but who the frig ever beleives them ?

[thoughtform]

Jung himself could never come a conclusion re: synchronicity, and it drove him somewhat mad. Yung23, Didn't Danielle say that after her team crashed on the island they became obsessed with the meaning of the numbers so much that they did nothing else but research their meaning. She said that was the sickness. Why would she think she had to kill them ? That is the only part that doesn,t make sense to me.

[yung23]

Did she really say that was the sickness ?
wow, I didn't realize that.

I still dont think she could have killed them, all.
why stick around like lambs in a slaughter ?
wait...unless she blew them up...

but yeah, why ?

maybe finding the meaning, seeing how connected it all is, drives you insane,, ie : lenny at the hospital, he seemed to know the math and the connections, he was doing it in the connect four, as other posters have seen as well..see the math heavy thread..

and getting off the island could destroy the world, Imagine everyone knowing these really vague(forusnow)but odd secrets...

my buddies father already went out and bought a damn lotto ticket, using 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42..

it was the 6/49 draw.

see what a mean ? thats a lot of " butterflies"
( ref; to of course, the butterfly effect)

if they got rescued, the majority(the sick) would want to stay, (like locke), and they may cripple any attempt to leave, even if it means sinking a friggin sub that comes to rescue them..(like walt vs the raft)

danielles only hope was to rid herself of the sick, and the numbers......but how tempting the thought must have been, all alone as she was...

4, 8 , 15 , 16, 23, 42

AAAAAARRRRGH WHERE THE FRIG AM I ?

wow, its pretty clear how she went a little bent.

but why did she not get sick ?
she never saw the connections !!!
Hurley had to explain it to her,
but she first had to see how unsick HE was.
only then did she see some connections,
I have a very strong feeling mothers cannot be influenced somehow. they wont be given these Locke assisted island monster/ spirit trips, and if so, it will have the adverse effect.
IMO


edit, sorry I went away thinking....

this kind of straightens out the story if you think about it..

i for one, was always wondering why simply wanting to stay was so threatening to danielle, I mean, just choose to stay, go friggin hide when the ship comes..

but this knowledge, and leaving with it, could very well be a lot more dangerous...

But when you take into account Danielle has probaly never even seen the wizard pulling the strings.. she would have not known how powerful these numbers really were or can be, when applied to create an effect.
( as we see clearly in these boards re: the numbers,
never before has a lost detail been discussed so intently)


so again, why did she kill them ? hmmm... oh well, we're getting closer. The producers have obviously left a lot out on the danielle character.. on purpose.

[thoughtform]

I think Danielle said in her conversation with Sayid, that the people who wanted to leave the island were the ones he should watch for the sickness. She said that she couldn't let her team leave the island as carriers of the sickness, because she feared it spreading everywhere. The problem I'm having is why the mysterious island "force" seems to want to keep people on the island and yet the sickness is described as something happening to the ones who want to leave. We have to be dealing with two opposing forces on this island. The monster is working to stop people from leaving like Danielle is, now what is causing the sickness and wanting to escape the island via the "carriers"? I know that we are being shown this through the black and white stones and it being the symbol of opposites or duality. What do you think?

[lacenaire]

From the point of view of the caos theory would all the seemingly random events that caused the characters to be on the same plain could be explainrd as a chain of related events, even under laws of causality?

Was all of this really "destiny"?

THe fact that it happened proves that it couldn't have happened otherwise?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I think Danielle said in her conversation with Sayid, that the people who wanted to leave the island were the ones he should watch for the sickness. She said that she couldn't let her team leave the island as carriers of the sickness, because she feared it spreading everywhere.

I'd like to see the exact Danielle dialogue. Might go hunting in Spooky's transcripts.

Sounds like what you are suggesting is that the numbers made them obsessed. Danielle's research team fixated on them and it drove them mad. (obsessing like us) Danielle, herself may not have understood what the numbers meant, so therefore, she was not "infected." But as you point out she feared it spreading everywhere. So that's why she killed her team.

Then that would mean (going with this train of thought) since Hurley came to her - that Danielle may have concluded the numbers sickness spread out into the world anyway.

So what is the implications then?

[yung23]

I don't think the sickness was the numbers at all, I just read solitary and numbers were never mentioned, nor do I think they were inferred.
her description was vague, they were sick, she had to kill them.... sorry to spend bandwidth, i cut it down a bit

From Solitary..
Rousseau
Our vessel was 3 days out of Tahiti when our instruments malfunctioned. It was night, a storm, the sounds. The ship slammed into rocks, ran aground, the hull breached beyond repair. So, we made camp, dug out this temporary shelter. Temporary. Nearly 2 months we survived here, 2 months before....

Sayid
Your distress signal? The message I heard, you said, "It killed them all."

Rousseau
We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers.

Sayid
Who were the carriers?

Rousseau
The others.

Sayid
What others? What is the Black Rock? Have you seen other people on this island?

Rousseau
No, but I hear them. Out there, in the jungle. They whisper. You think I'm insane.....

THEN LATER...

Rousseau
The firing pin has been removed. Robert didn't notice it was missing either when I shot him.

Sayid
But you loved him.

Rousseau
He was sick.

Sayid
Sick?

Rousseau
It took them, one after the other. I had no choice. They were already lost. (notice she said LOST !)

Sayid
You killed them.

Rousseau
What would have happened if we were rescued? I couldn't let that happen. I won't.

[Sayid throws the rifle down.]
Sayid
I'm not sick.

Rousseau
I know.
trails on.....

THEN In numbers...

Danielle to Hurley.. after his rant...[lowering her rifle]
Our ship picked up a transmission, a voice repeating those numbers. We changed course to investigate. After we shipwrecked my team continued to search for the transmission source. It was weeks before we found the radio tower.

Hurley
There's a radio tower on this island?

Danielle
Yes, up by the black rock. Some of us continued to search for the meaning of those numbers while we waited for rescue. But then the sickness came. When my team was gone I went back up to the tower and changed the transmission.

Hurley
The distress signal we heard?

Danielle
Yes.

Hurley
But the numbers. Did you ever find out anything about them. Do you know where they got their power?

Danielle
Power?

Hurley
They bring bad stuff to everyone around you. They're cursed. You know that, right? The numbers, they're cursed.

Danielle
Numbers are what brought me here. As it appears they brought you. Since that time I've lost everything, everyone I cared about. So yes, I suppose you're right. They are cursed.

Hurley
Thank you. Thank you. You have no idea how long I've been waiting for someone to agree with me. Thank you. Oh god, thank you.

and so on...

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Thanks yung.

There is something Danielle SEES, when she knows someone is NOT sick. It's why she wasn't suspicious of Hurley and why she concluded Sayid was not sick. Discussed ad nauseum throughout the board it still looks like it boils down to:

- "cursed numbers" - Hurley suggestion. Or the transmission of them spreading causes insanity. (butterfly effect)

- "the others" infect people, (whispers in the jungle)

- "the black rock," causes sickness

I guess we have to wait till this week's new epi to see if anyone get sick for more clues.

[lacenaire]

hi sawyerHB

remember the carriers, they are the most likely infectious factor. Something that must at first sight is inofensive yet lethal if you come in contact with...

[jaystao]

The question is really, how can Chaos theory and syncronicity cause the supposed supernatural events of LOST.

How can this idea of multiple causes make Locke walk? OR cause a sickness? Or allow so many to survive from a supposedly fatal Plane crash? Or put Polar Bears on the island? Or create transmission stations? Or, or, or, or...

I suspect at the heart of it all is some kind of probability matrix. Or Biological manipulation on a genetic/cell level. How so? It spurs from what SHBL said in her first posts on this thread. How people may have been able to manipulate phenomena using symbols and rituals to effect the world around them. The greatest computer is found in life and the human mind, after billions of years of evolution, is a prime example of evolution at it's height.

My idea is one of time and what I will call for now a 'rhythm'. A rhythm from which perhaps all life follows. A transition of sound/motion and energy. That we move in time through fluctuations of moment and mass through space.

Well what if some agency changed that rhythm somehow? And in that changed how we are effected by time? Or if there were some agency already capable of doing this. From the smallest moment, matter, movement, space, microcosm changed just so ever slightly but enough to create a ripple effect. Spiraling out wards.

My suggestion then is what if these living fluctuations of time were in some way messed up or altered on the island? Creating not just some kind of new life but a new kind of existence as this genetic rhythm slowly replaced the old. The longer you stayed on the island the more this rhythm would slowly effect not just your bodily functions but your mental and spiritual understanding as well. Its in the water, the air, everywhere, causing a reaction to everything it infects. If this tampering with the very essence of nature and in that time/space was controlled, perhaps there are certain advantages that were looked for. The ability to control and be aware of the rhythms of the world around you. Theres a catch. Those things not infected by this mutated rhythm wouldn't bond naturally with mutations, they would feel there were something 'wrong' and like a turtle traveling across entire oceans to return to its place of origin so too are these mutations returning to the origin of their mutation. Perhaps the numbers are a representation of this mutant life encapsulating melody. A sequence repeating over and over again, spinning a web to trap others in it's snare.

I'm going to bed now as I believe most of this post is a result of a lack of sleep. So good night......zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Wynter Zera]

I think this theory is right on.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

This is a quote from Drabauer that she put in Jays tao juxtaposition thread. I thought it was relevent here as well.

To follow up on what SHTBL said, yes, chaotic algorhythms are used in all CGI programs. The most famous original programs work according to turtle graphics (explained in Michael Barnsley's standard work on Fractals and Graphic Design). These are an implementation of L-systems, a string rewriting system developed by biologist Aristid Lindemeyer for describing the chaotic growth of plants, which evolve recursively, yet not according to linear transformations.

I'd urge those of you interested in the topic of Chaos/Fractal geometry and Lost to look for three things; according to my research, if you find these three things, you can say that you have found a "chaotic" system:
1) a sensitivity to initial conditions, 2) a resistance to decompostion or reversal, and 3) some regularity. The truly chaotic function pursues a trajectory that “oscillates irregularly without settling down” around and about a “strange attractor,” the set of points towards which the chaotic trajectory converges.

I think the "strange attractor" has happened already when the airplane went down. My guess is the weather was experiencing the "lorenz attractor" 2 double spirals that never touch - and that the airplane came into contact with it. It may be a possible explanation of how the plane went down and how they survived the crash and to where the rest of the plane went. What I'm hoping for, by the end of the season, they show us a weather pattern that fits with this.... say a water spout, tornado, etc.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I think this theory is right on

Thanks Wynter, I'll feel more confident, if by the end of the season, we see some spirals: whirlpools, tornados, water spouts, etc.

[yung23]

with deux ex machina now released, we can see how important bringing new members to this island is to whatever is in the hatch.

Does anyone else get the impression that "the hatch host"
didn't quite want Boone to die, just to SEND out a signal, bringing about yet another string of events ?

Is it this reason it turned on a light to let Locke know someone- or something? was about to let him in ?

They, or it, somehow knows whats going on outside the hatch, and can manipulate it as in Jays theory ?
either through advanced evolution (some form of being) or a "mentally-reconfigured" human..

[artemisia]

The game MOUSETRAP, if memory serves me correctly, works as one "event" sets off another "event."
An orderly and comprehensible illustration of chaos theory...and the quote...for want of a nail...
A sequence of events (seemingly random ) does trap the mouse-if you set it off correctly and it (the action) doesn't get stopped by a poorly arranged set-up. I think there are about ten things that have to be laid out correctly. Locke says its his favorite game-but maybe he's the mouse now.

[trinabobina]

he was the mouse when it came to his father and mother's trap

[yung23]

and he may also be the mouse in respect to the hatch host, the string of events being...
Arrival of the first crew who sent out the number sequence.
One of them must have eventually seen the hatch, or was told the numbers in a dream & sent it out to warn others of it,
or they were tricked into sending it out...
(obviously there's a BIG story there too, if any are alive still to tell it)..

either way, our host knew all this would happen, ...
so the numbers brought Danielles team, YADA YADA YADA,
(I'm yada'ing Danielles long complicated yet to hear story as to how she rid herslef of ALL her crew)
Then Danielle tried to stop it from happening again,
And Literally put out a warning signal...

BUT, (as our Host was already aware of) IMO,
the numbers had already set up yet another string of events..
The ones which led to Hurley using them & winning the lotto
Then experiencing their pre-destined effects (stillwithme?)
which leads him to beleive their cursed,
which brought him to Australia to discover their origins,
which he found in the desert there,
THEN AGAIN ON THE ISLAND....

ta da, another group to use, kill, manipulate...

it's like it's searching for a certain TYPE of person.

okay, thats Yung23's two cents for now..

[drabauer]

No that I think this is a direct influence, but I can't help thinking of the "Lucky" episode of X-Files (6th or 7th session) where the protagonist, played by Willie Gavin, was fascinated by Rube Goldberg devices (the mousetrap game was modeled on Rube Goldberg's cartoons); he also experienced a transfer of fate similar to Hurley's.

What all this intertexuality is leading to I don't know.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Anyone notice the butterfly pin Locke's mom was wearing in the hospital in the scene when he wakes up in the bed, and his father is gone.

Add another butterfly motif to the list.

------

Also can't help but get Emily Locke's little speech about Locke being special, and something about him being a part of a "big design." And more 815's.

------

Thanks everybody for the mousetrap info above. You guys are quick! Great observation. Definately makes sense here.

[Gambit980]

How do you think the time line is from when they shoot and when it airs. If all of the theories were up three months ago than I can see you point. If there theory was up last week and it happens this week than we were just able to predict.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I've come to the point where I think the writers read LOST message boards to find cute little things they can throw into an episode to further their attempts at deception and misdirection.


Agreed. I started a thread on this a few hours ago. Last night's episode poked at 7 theories I can think of off hand, 2 of which they claim is not it: Purgatory, and Island of Dr. Morreau.

When I saw the butterfly pin, I felt like they poked me personally in the nose.

[drabauer]

Yes, Wart this is a chicken/egg situation. I've no doubt the writers are teasing us with familiar pop and legit cultural references, but I don't think they come from the boards. I think they may be directed at us, the fans, because they have said publically that they love it when we take these observations and run with them.

The smart producers know that a well-written show will run forever in cyberspace!

[NeillT006]

I don't know how the hell this slipped all the way to page 4.

BUMP!!!!

N.

[lacenaire]

Revising how characters have shared memories in a fragmented way in Neils character, I realized this theory could also be an explanation.
An interesting LINK (http://www.lifepathretreats.com/news_articles_movies.asp) about Jungian psychology in movies

They seem to have in their lives the same persons and events, but they happened to experience them in a different way, like if they all were random possibilities of the course 1 life could take. JUNGIAN SYNCHRONICITY, please SawyerHB add more of your fresh ideas to this very interesting thread.

I guess I need to know what you all think about this theory after all that's happened in the past episodes.

This is another link (http://www.questia.com/SM.qst?act=search&keywordsSearchType=1000&keywords=jung%20movies) with more reading material related to JUNG and movies/literature.

[yung23]

Bump.

--cough-cough.

[russman588]

Imagine 2 giant swirling vortexes forming from the ocean to the sky, much like a "cosmic toilet flushing" or a double tornado. My thinking is the plane crossed through this

Example: If there are parallel universes and Yung23 in this world chooses today to take the car to drive to the beach, it may mean Yung23 in another world decided to ride his bike

I'm not sure that anyone's related these two ideas, or if that's what sawyerhbl has been talking about this whole time and my reading comprehension skills are just not up to snuff, but what if there are two parallel universes that the two vortexes lead to. I think this is a definite possibility, and I also believe that there are two sets of survivors in each parallel universe. This could explain someone saying to Boone: "We are the survivors of Flight 815." but more of my reasoning does contain a spoiler... so: SPOILER ALERT Stop reading if you don't want to know about... something.






Is there a chance we haven't seen the last of Boone?[/b
Yeah, totally. By the end of the season, I'll be back in flashbacks. Here's the other thing: I'm gonna be coming back next season, too.

Wait-is Boone really d
He's dead as a doornail. Trust me. He's in the ground. Dead, dead, dead.

(From the tv guide interview with Ian Somerhalder)

My thoughts are that there two sets of LOST characters out there, meaning that in some way, the parallel universes will come together or the survivors will be able to cross back and forth between the parallel universes. Meaning that the Boone on Island #1 is dead, but the Boone on Island #2 isn't. And maybe Jack's father didn't die in the other parallel universe, meaning it's entirely possible for Jack to actually see him. This probably has a lot of holes and it's extrapolating quite a bit, so whaddya think?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

what if there are two parallel universes that the two vortexes lead to.

Russman, exactly!

My speculation was that the 815 numbers created a double spiral based on the Lorenz attractor in chaos theory. After thinking about it, it seemed the spirals could lead in a few places, still undetermined. Could be parallel universe. Could also be 2 intertwining spirals winding around each other, like a double helix, going in 2 different directions. One goes to the island, the other goes away from it. I just don't know where "away" is. So my thinking is the plane flew into the double spirals.

[yung23]

I keep looking for some sort of wind effects, or funnels in the cloud" scenes but i have yet to see any.
It would probaly explain too much, don't you think ?
would it even be visual ?

I feel we're all so close with these lastest theories, mixing in parallel dimensions , bell shape curves etc...the numbers..

but with this theory, sawyer, do you still feel a presence on the island anyway ?
even if the distortion and isolation of the island is explained scientifically ?

(I still feel a strong mental ability thing going on.IMO)

[thoughtform]

(I still feel a strong mental ability thing going on.IMO) I agree with you yung. After watching Special again last night I have rethought a couple of things. I used to think that Walt had the ability to create forms from his thoughts. I thought that he created the polar bear from his anger over his father burning the comic book and because of not being allowed to hang with Locke. I still think that Walt is different, but the polar bear attack came from somewhere else. The mysterious force of the island has the ability to read the fears of the survivors and create forms for them. It was the island's way to change the opinion of Michael toward Locke. Walt was looking at the picture of the polar bear for a while because it frightened him. What better way to bring a bond between father and son than to have the father save the son from a terrifying, man eating polar bear. Of course it doesn't hurt that Locke was there to help even after Michael threatened to kill him if he didn't stay away from his son. This was all about manipulating Michael onto Locke's side so that Locke could still help Walt to achieve the realisation of his potential (of which we don't know if it is good or bad). So we still have the island and its mysterious way of knowing what's inside our survivors minds and what Walt will be able to accomplish for the island when his potential has been realised.

[soup]

Thoughtform, I agree with your assessment of Walt's ability. What used to hang me up was others pointing out that the lostaways ran into a polar bear without Walt early on. I don't think it matters, though. First of all, didn't Hurley give Walt the comics? Were they his, I can't remember? Hurley's family was hispanic, no? Even if not, Walt could have possibly caused the bear appearance with his first read of the book.
Walt has shown he can be deceptive. The raft burning leads me to believe he may have created the scenario, but isn't it a stretch for him to know that Locke and Michael would find him together?(Unless he concocted it with Locke).

The scene in "Special" that really weirds me out is when he's trying to read to his step-dad and he keeps saying "You're not listening to me!" Reminds me of that old Star Trek episode when they find the kid raised by aliens, and he has incredible reality warping powers, but the maturity level of a ten year old. He turns people to lizards, makes them disappear, removes their mouths. Walt is special, in the words of Locke, and needs to be handles with care.

[thoughtform]

jeffsoup, I also had a problem about the first polar bear , but I let it slide until I could go back in the transcripts for more info. The comic could have been Hurley's. As for Walt setting it up with Locke, I'm sure that's possible. But Walt may not even be aware that it was prearranged in that way. Could just be the "island" manipulating events for it's own agenda concerning Walt's potential. Locke, however, sees that it is the "island" doing this, but is not really aware of what the "island's" reasons are. He seems to be a real good guy who is being terribly used by something he thinks has a beautiful agenda. Is he just being led in the same way he was led by his father?

[beachscene]

i checked the transcripts - walt is shown reading the comic book with polar bear before kate and crew come across it in the jungle.

[LostInWilderness]

I have a couple questions.

How does this theory explain Locke predicting the rain? That seems an example of prescience, and cannot be explained chaos theory or synchronicity. It would be synchronicity if Locke wished it would rain.

How does this theory explain Locke's vision of the small plane crash, an historical, actual event? Had he followed a vision like Jack in White Rabbit, synchronicity would work, but not a vision of an historical event, IMO.

I have to agree with drabauer that the mouse trap that caught Boone was direct effect. The one that caught Locke was also intelligent design. I think they both were.

[russman588]

I think chaos theory explains stuff more along the lines of the numbers and some things aside from what you're mentioning, LostInWilderness. I personally don't think that there is one answer for everything, as the producers keep telling us.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

When I started this thread I was trying to provide a theory that supports speculation to:

- how the plane crashed, and how the castaways survived (lorenz attractor/spirals) & how and why other groups of people end up on the island.

- an explanation of the dispersion of numbers and sickness (butterfly effect), and why there are deliberate butterfly motifs.

- And it provides a way of thinking about future problem solving relating to the transmitter based on the castaways finding the transmitter and getting control of it.

----


LostinWilderness:

In terms of weather patterns - "rain" I don't have an answer, but if we see any whirlpools, tornadoes, water spouts, and any peculiar things falling out from the sky ... (then we'll have a lot to talk about.) Let's see what happens when that raft gets sailing.

-SHBL

[sexy baby mama]

I am hoping that the writers are saving such things for the finale, sawyerhasbestlines. And even then, I wonder if they would let something as blatant as all that out. I mean, then we'd know, right? Or at least have a pretty good idea.

As much as I thought I wouldn't, I've become a fan of the parallel universe theory, along with the choice vs. free will motif. One thing I never really understood about the Butterfly Effect (the movie) - ALL the ways ashton kutcher's character experienced it were real, right? The movie was playing with the idea that reality is changeable, and yet, it is not. Because even after the last change he makes, does that mean that everything that happened to him before, that made him change his mind, was any less real?

And I am one person who believes that Chaos is ordered. How it is ordered, and if humans can ever figure that out, I don't know. But I'm hoping we'll see at least one instance of parallel universes colliding before the season is over.

[russman588]

Another extrapolation from the parallel universes colliding: Rose's husband. What if in another universe, he had not gone to the bathroom just before the plane crashed? I do believe that Rose's husband is alive and somehow she knows it. Her husband could be on Island #2 and she may be able to feel it, because she's close to the parallel universe.

[yung23]

I must apologize for somewhat hijacking this thread toward synchronicity in the first place, Sawyers talk about chaos theory just seemed like a connected point of interest for me.

I wish I could add to your lorenz attractors and spirals, but I just don't really know how to add to your info. at the time.

however...
in Maya, (Alias), which is by far a very mathematical program, explaining shape and volumes using numbers etc.... at times VERY complex numbers... (I remember learning automobile autocad models sometimes use 7th degree curves, instead of the simply 3rd degree curves used in nurbs etc..like Gollumn)

this allows them to explain the entire shape of the hood of a car without using massive numbers....
just one little equation...

it's like object compression or something...



Anyway, there are attractors in Maya as well...

sorry for the above rambling, just thought it was somewhat helpful getting to my simple point.

the attractors are used to direct the flow of particles..
like Sullys hair from monsters inc.


IS this an alright picture of your lorenz attractors ?
I keep picturing the ghost busters crossing the lines..

I really want to understand this idea, I KNOW its all related here... including, sorry, synchronicity again... I feel it's there..
we've seen it many times...

they're toying with us.

edit:
just thinking of the spirals now..
the compasses would be pointing in every direction wouldn't they ?

[thoughtform]

Is it possible that some or all of the events that clearly seem synchronicitous may be explained by astrology? Planetary influences affecting people with similar astrological aspects in their charts? A seeming randomness that sets off a pattern. We may think it is random but if certain people with certain matching aspects were at the same place at the same time when certain planetary alignments or squares happened, this could be the strange connection and reason for what happened. Possible? I'm sorry, I also meant to include astronomy in here but forgot.

[LostInWilderness]

If there is a lorenz attractor on this island, it has to be the tower, right? Is there any other reasonable alternative?

[yung23]

astrology definetly fits in here, we've seen orion in the lost night sky I beleive, ( I remember someone else mentioned it, but it is not confirmed as far as I know),

And Jung actually used astrology to try and prove synchronicity. I had little to do with planets and such, it was just a source of random subjects for him to study.

Besides, Jj has played with Tarot cards in lost already, astrology hinted episodes aren't far off.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Yung,

Synchronicity totally fits in with this.... so don't apologize, you've been a huge asset to this thread - . Synchronicity and the butterfly effect go hand in hand.

You might be interested in jungian tarot cards if you don't have them already. Each suit has a particular greek mythological story attached to them.

------

Russman, You've got great observations and are making really good questions. I think Rose's husband is alive too - (at least Rose's husband #4,815 in a parallel universe :D ) I can't wait for them to bring more of Rose back in the story, to see what is up there.

------

Josie, I never saw the movie, butterfly effect. Someone said they kind of botched up the chaos theory aspect of it in the movie. So it's probably kind of hard to start with the movie as a premise and then jump to here.

The butterfly effect is kind of like stacking the domino's up in a fan shape and pushing domino number one, and it tips domino 2 & 3 simultaneously, and 2 & 3 tip over 4,5,6 & 7, etc.

Josie said: "And I am one person who believes that Chaos is ordered" No you are not the only one, that is part of the definition of chaos theory.

[jaystao]

I've been going on this castaways dysfunction shadow syndrome theory buzz for awhile now and I now think its time to advance it toward this theory.

Autism. Compulsive obsessive disorders. Shadow syndromes. Couldn't the obsessive natures of the castaways somehow allow them to tune into the patterns of your spiral vortex, more readily then other 'normal' people. Especially if their brains were particularly receptive to some kind of frequency being created by the spiraling patterns within chaos and possibly the numbers manifesting within their lives. I keep thinking about Hurley's encounter with the mental patient, and how he was obsessed with finding some pattern within the numbers. Maybe he would find this pattern eventually if he simply looked around him and where such might lead him, as perhaps it did with at least some of the castaways. The difference perhaps is our castaways abilities to 'act' upon their world. Someone who was completely suffering from the above disorders might not be able to enact their will upon the world enough to lead them to flight 815. Those castaways who do display certain shadow aspects of these disorders, by using these dysfunctions as a means to enact their will upon the world and hence overcome their disability, may also be inadvertently following these patterns they have become ensnared by. For what ever reasons they justify their actions by, on a subconscious level they are following tendrils of cause and effect patterns, which will ultimately lead them to choices that bring them closer to their central reckoning. By whatever obsession lead them there, there was something that made them choose that flight of all flights to take them home and I think it was some unconscious realization of its importance in 'homing' in on whatever syncronistic beacon they were following.

In regards to how decisions can ensnare our castaways I remember seeing Michael open that box of letters beneath a spider web like archway before meeting Walt. I think Michael had real reservations about taking Walt but when he saw those old letters he was finally decided and was thus ensnared by the 'destiny' that our chaos spirals are presenting. la, la, la...

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Couldn't the obsessive natures of the castaways somehow allow them to tune into the patterns of your spiral vortex, more readily then other 'normal' people. Especially if their brains were particularly receptive to some kind of frequency being created by the spiraling patterns within chaos and possibly the numbers manifesting within their lives.

That's a really interesting idea. What if what is defined as crazy as we know it, is really misunderstood super abilities that have no place to function. So the abilities fixate and repeat over and over out of lack of stimuli.

I'm also reminded about how our brains are different from each other and can operate on different frequencies based on our chemisty, ability or lack of to produce chemicals like dopamine. Also our senses may be tuned in differently or more accutely: like our hearing, smells, etc.

If they don't know about their sensitivities or skills, they would just mechanically make decisions without being aware of what is stimulating the choice. Thus as Jays tao says, "homing' in on whatever syncronistic beacon they were following."

I just realized I'm just sort of rephrazing your points, but you are much better clearly articulating.

-----

I like your calling the archway a "spider web." Ties into the mousetrap game. And I think Thoughtform has a spider metaphor in the bermuda triangle thread. (off to check)

[jaystao]

I mentioned this before, but 'homing' in reminds me of how turtles return to their birth place to either mate or give birth. If this is the case then it suggests that the castaways have a previous conection to the island some how and that it may be the origin of at least some of their genetic/social behaviour. This poses some very interesting questions of coarse, though it maybe that the island simply 'resonates' outwards and eventaully within the hearts and minds of those special enough to feel it.....

[beachscene]

If there is a lorentz attractor on this island, it has to be the tower, right? Is there any other reasonable alternative?

i hope not! the points in a fractal/chaotic system never actually arrive at their strange attractor(s). and i for one hope they actually find the black rock!

[russman588]

This poses some very interesting questions of coarse, though it maybe that the island simply 'resonates' outwards and eventaully within the hearts and minds of those special enough to feel it.....

One question that I think should be raised, is why did the island bring them to it? I think that the chaos theory makes a lot of sense and explains how the numbers keep reappearing, as well as how it could lead some specific people to it. What I'm saying is we can understand the means, but what about the motive?

[DontWannaBLost]

Autism. Compulsive obsessive disorders. Shadow syndromes. Couldn't the obsessive natures of the castaways somehow allow them to tune into the patterns of your spiral vortex, more readily then other 'normal' people.
JaysTao, I was completely struck by Jack's obsession with Boone's injuries and I like how you have tied in the psychological aspects with the scientific aspects.

I'm not sure if you'll agree with the tie, but Jack's obsession with Boone's injuries were at a new level (giving his own blood to the point of endangering his own well-being, willing to sacrifice Boone's leg w/out regard to the likely harm it would do-only to the success it could bring, his inability to "quit"). Could it be that the unknowing ability our survivors have to "tune into" the spirals is amplified and diminished at various times?

What causes the variance, I don't know enough to speculate. But think of the swings we have seen in emotional demeanor of Jack, Locke (cradle building vs hatch excavating), Walt (special at times), Hurley (Danielle search), and others? Maybe somehow the spiral interaction not only drew them to the island, but also manifests itself in these, often recurring, psychological and emotional episodes.

[yung23]

I see what you are mean, it's as if they get more and more desperate...becoming focused on the one task, like tunnel vision of the mind.

can environment cause such aggressive brain pattern behaviour though ?


wouldn't a lot more people be showing it though ?

Like sawyer when he's reading, it should nearly always take a few "hey Sawyer"s to get his attention.

I agree though, Jack , Locke, Charlie, Hurley, Danielle and Kate even have shown this spiral of obsession...
(although Kates may have been pure, before the island obsession)


& Ethan REALLY showed some obsession...
(poss. a long term effect)

if I get your point at all.....

[DontWannaBLost]

I guess I'm kind of tying this to the Tesla waves and wondering if there could be a connection to the spirals.

My thought on the reason more people don't show it is because it affects them differently based on phases of the waves...that is if you want to think of it as waves. Some people's "natural level" of OCD, autism, or other disorder probably respond more to the crest of the wave, while others are more influenced by the trough. And maybe others are influenced by something in between. So, you won't see everyone acting obsessive (Jack), "special" (Walt) or unusually compassionate (Locke building cradle) at the same time.

Again, this is probably more Tesla wave than spirals...but man, Sawyer sure can get into reading his books!!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

New Side Topic: CHAOS SHADOW THEORY

Hi all,

Since the conversation is taking a psychological spin, I did a little research on the psychological connection between chaos theory, mental disorders and brain waves. I found a couple interesting sites that are useful to read while applying it to lost. Those of you interested in the pychological connection (shadow) and chaos theory, will get more insight if you check out the links below:

----

This link uses serial killers as a topic for: CHAOS SHADOW THEORY (http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/1999/SHADOW.htm)

The link is useful as it explains the psycho/chaotic stuff and it's easy to relate it to LOST and whatever force could be amplifying their behavior. Forget the "serial killer" part and look at it as an explanation for how their personalities might be influenced (or turned on) on the island.

----

Here's a JUNGIAN/CHAOS link"

"There is a similarity between the "strange attractors" of chaos theory and Jung's notion of psychological complexes which may be more than metaphorical.* ...

Jungian connection to chaos (http://www.geocities.com/iona_m/ChaosTheory/chaostheory3.html)

[yung23]

bumping. these are all good reads.

[Chance Gardener]

This one had the math geeks all a-twitter.

[jaystao]

Chaos theory, chaos theory how does your garden grow? Nothing strange about the slow mo montage on the plane in the finale. If they had shown it at the begining of the show we wouldn't have give a darn. However, at the zenith of all things, it was a perfect example of how an 'event' is given relevance in the fourth dimension (time and perspective), where multiple tangents come together, creating texture and has meaning because it has both 'reflection' and history. No event is singular, it is the outcome of a series of prior events and possibly, in reflection, consequence.

Just an excuse to bump.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

After season 1, there's one mystery that is still bugging me that I might be able to tie into this topic (with a giant stretch).

And that's fractals, and how they seem to be floating or changing directions (referencing the non functioning compasses). The fractal explanation is that the island is in a constant state of evolution: growing, evolving, changing - like some kind of organic blob.

[boonian androphile]

And what possibly kicks in another large moment of evolution is the arrival of new humans. We see something of what the new inhabitants gain (or must fear) from the island, but what if the island gains something in return: an opportunity to grow. Of course with growth there must be sustenance so all things on the island will not be pleasant for the humans. For experiential reasons the island may require a death today. Not a good day to be alone---or worse, with Locke.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

And what possibly kicks in another large moment of evolution is the arrival of new humans

Or as I lovingly refer to them: adorable replicants.:b

[yung23]

okay, back to our secret friends...

I have just gotten a hold of an Illuminati DVD. Angels and Demons revealed. I had no idea as to how big the origins of this secret group are. They were "once" known as the masons... (i never put the two together before)
and later the templar knights or the knights of the temple, they were made up from various powerful groups such as blacksmiths, religious leaders, charitable organizations, basically all the people very high up in their trades..

it wasn't just limited to tradesmen either.
they had warriors to fight for them.
and apparently " assasins " means "ashashsins"(wrongspellling?) or "hashish user" !
ancient shiite muslim warriors who controlled northern sieria near the 11th century, during the crusades,..
they smoked hash to prepare for war...
by the 1100's there were over 70,000 devoted shiite warriors..
around the same time in france.. another secret sect had joined, the templars or "priori of zion "... dedicated to preserving the "marivingien" (guy from matrix) and returning him to the throne of france..

their official headquaters was the abbey of notre dame in jeruslim.

in 1117 "Boldwin" the first king of jeruslem was greatly indebted to the priori for helping him attain the throne..

more to come i just started to watch the dvd....


so perhaps this island is the home base of the illuminati and have stationed the new world order weapon here on our island, protecting it with a massively equal security system...


good to see this thread wasn't lost.

edit..

it appears for some time the templar knights had camped out at King solomons tomb/grave looking for something.
at times the churches used tthe secret UNDERGROUND tunnels to hide things, they mention the arc and holy grail may have been hidden here to protect them during wartimes...

now, isn't a lot of LOST underground ?

hmmm.
I guess they really figured out how to tunnel.
cool little dvd so far.

any historians out there ?

is this all BS ?

this may not tie in with fractals and vortexs but I thought some people here may want more info on the Illuminati..

and jays toa, this seems familiar , didnt you post info on the templars ? priori of zion etc...?

[jaystao]

Yung 23, cant remember. But a secret and ancient organisation using some kind of mystical wisdom similar to the original ritualistic/shaministic origins in chaos and quantum theories could be the illuminati/templars. I know some of their back ground from crusade history and recently they were the center of the plot surrounding my favourite computer game 'broken sword - shadow of the templers and the sleeping dragon'. The knights templar and the knights Hospitala were both holy orders of the crusades. They are renouned mostly as keepers of holy relics taken from the east during the crusades (particularly with the ransacking of the Christian capital of Constantinoble now Istanbul), the most famous being of coarse the Holy grail. Because of this they have been attributed as keepers of wisdom that they might have inadvertantly come across scouring the holy land for wealth and spiritual glory (often at the same time). Particularly ancient long forgotten mystical wisdom such as the remnants of Altantis, the blood line of Christ, the relics of alien civilizations or the true langauge of Babel and so forth.

As a side note the shiite hashishime were a splinter group of muslim fanatics (similar to Al kada in some respects) who were ruled by an 'old man of the mountain' and may have in turn been idealised by Persian mythos (though there is a definate historical figure by the time of the third crusade). A grand master assassin who legend has it, drugged potential followers and allowed them to wake up briefly in 'paradise' where a garden of delight was shown to them, when they awoke they were told that by doing the grand masters will, when they died they would go to this paradise forever. Thus they had no fear of death as long as it was in the grand masters service. They were a sort of dual oppositional faction to the fanaticism of the knights hospitala. This has undertones of the matrix so I thought I'd mention it.

edit: All this is just from memory so in hind sight I probably did post something, but I cant remember where and why. It probably had something to do with an elemental equilibrium, limbo or I-ching. Naturally.

[yung23]

This has undertones of the matrix ...

yeah , the merivingien thing got my attention.

gonna keep watching the DVD.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

they mention the arc and holy grail may have been hidden here to protect them during wartimes...


I read a few books on grail lore: including masons, rosicrucians, templars, etc. ... years ago before Dan Brown appropriated and botched things up. My memory is rusty but I liked the theory that the holy grail, was symbolic for Christ's bloodline. Basically, Jesus was married to Mary, and she was pregnant - and I think the Prior de Sion and the Rosicrucians protected the bloodline and the descendents of Christ.

So tying this into Lost, it could help explain Christian's Shepard's name and why a few select people seem to be chosen and swept up and out from society. And perhaps the medical/hospital component.
....

And to ramble on somemore, maybe the car crashing into people is because some "prophet" had a vision that there were certain people who could take down the whole organization, like Kate and Locke, and that's why they have been hunted down or made paralyzed.

Blah, blah, blah... blah.

[jaystao]

But what has it got to do with 'chaos' theory?

My answer: The introduction of the 'chaos' gene. A human mutation that is somehow able to make random things occur, similar to the miracles attributed to Christ and other human prophets of the devine. A living probability matrix inherant in our DNA, where certain minds are somehow in rythym to random cyclic fluctuations in the cosmos 'and' more importantly can control it. They are always in the right place at the right time (or in the wrong place at the wrong time as a reverse cycle). This would explain Kates gift with getting away with things or Jacks confidence with his own ability and a whole bevy of other phenomena including Hurley's and Walts 'specialness' and Locke's sixth sense. They may not be able to put a name to their unique luck/unluck trait but they've learned to live with it and to understand impart its cyclic nature.

[yung23]

I love the way you guys think.

keep it comin !

[boonian androphile]

Some characters would clearly have/receive this gene while others would lack? Locke, Walt, Hurley, Kate, Jack would possess the gene while the rest would not? Boone clearly wouldnt as death is probably not an evolutionary success. At least in an individual case. Or maybe even if they all possess the gene some abilities are stronger or more consistent than others? Potentially more powerful in children? Sorry for all the questions Jay. Your posts tend to kick-start the mind.

[jaystao]

x-recessive, recessive, dominant stuff like that might come into it. If its hereditory (similar to that butterfly effect movie) maybe it might depend of sex in some way? We just don't know enough about the castaways parents is the problem. But there are clues.

[thoughtform]

This probably means nothing but, in the Marvel comic X-Men, the mutant gene only comes through the father. So the mutant characteristics come through the father's genes. But that's the X-Men.:rolleyes

[yung23]

i never realized the dvd I mentioned here was actually the first part to the da vinci code...

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Edited to say, "ugh - not so into that ^^^book"... and I have no particular religion :x Much better one that Dan Brown stole his ideas from is "Holy Blood, Holy Grail."

[yung23]

sorry you can't stand it, I never read it though, I dont know if I like it or not.

I dont know if you are but anybody faithful/ or christian seems to take offence when that book is mentioned anyway... sorry but I didn't write it. I just like the idea...

and it is not off topic. we've been talking about chaos genes and christ, and prophets etc...

I thought some of the ideas in some Illuminati theory would be close...

could walt be the next chaos gene enabled" person ?
set up by the illuminati through a secret world order...
(even the car crashing into Michael)
homebase, craphole island.

the illuminati did not go underground, they aquired an island.

just playing here...

apparently the ILL. found what they were looking for at King Solomons mine/tomb..

perhaps they brought it with them, and it is here now on the island, so the EX-masons (who were much better than anyone today at building things) constructed a security system to protect...
ie : the holy grail ?

but the others have it now.. and they need walt to use it.
??


the ILL were responsible for keeping the christ bloodline secret... perhaps somehow.. walt is a descendant... through his mother, who got a UNKNOWN blood disease in PERFECT timing with the plane crash and going to his father etc....

maybe her history involved a "special" doctor visit...
giving her ILL nanites to kill her at a set period.

the same nanites used to make our monster..

still just off the top of my head...

is it sounding good ?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

is it sounding good ?

Much better. :D

What if not only walt is carrying the gene but Aaron also, or strangely Sawyer for that matter. Gosh I suppose they all could. This rag-tag cast of characters flawed and all, may be the carriers of the super gene.

Then that would make the hillbilly pirates the anti-gene hunters.

[yung23]

alright, no one jumping on board at all here..
i have more but I want the motivation to do it.
I know I've seen our dates and stuff mentioned in ILL. myths...

and the beginning of the dvd:Angels and Demons mentions something about the ILL (illuminati) believing they could control others...

I watched the whole thing last night, Lots of speculation but there is a lot a factual stuff. most of it should be documented, ie kings joining the templars giving over their belongings.. you see to join, you had to give everything to the church of the templars...

kinda like how you must give something to the island ?

Jay ?
wanna play ?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Yeah, I wish more people would play with the Illuminati idea. Maybe you should start an illuminati thread. I'd be interested in hearing more about it. It's also possible that not many people ever go in this thread - the title probably throws them off, but an "Illuminati" title might draw them in. I never read the book but am eager to learn about it.

[yung23]

I had thought of that at first, but I thought the title may throw a lot away...
I'll do it though.
I'll need to repost a bit just to get back on track.

at first I was only playing, so I did it it the science posts only due the the fact it was the thread that made me look to the equinox...

[LostInWilderness]

I've read all about the illuminati for 20 years. IMO, it simply doesn't fit Lost. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's a tired cliche to me. I'm sure SHBL will smack me later.

[jaystao]

I think a secret society thread might be in order here Yung if you want to start one I'm game. I can think of dozens of secret societies that might have some relavence to the type of underground 'cult' like phenomena the 'others' might consist off. I suggested the 'Hell Fires Club' of England ages ago though I can't remember why except it was a story line in a Contantine novel. May I sugest societies that base them selves on this 'island' without having ever been there also, a bit like the 'paradise' of the hashishim (?), a place that they are promised that they will eventually go if they have done 'the masters' work. Or maybe its the end game of the Cult of reality/Railians/Mormons. Though a biblical twist is really a 'theme' it could be the bases of some factual substance when dealing with ancient cults that have 'evolved' to this very day. What about the 'thugi' for instance of India? Or the ninja/ronin of Japan. The boxer rebellion of China. The Jaguar/Eagle cult warriors of the Maya. I'm getting excited just thinking about it. Off topic, who cares! The island is mystical and secret societies supposedly operate in the mystical realms, so lets get 'fu manchu' and start making connections!

Possible Chaos Thoery like Cults:

The butterfly society.
Church of the virtual.
The cult of the 'Eye'.
Followers of the Moth.
The Watchers.
The Masters of the Hive (bee keeper society).
The Illucid Brethren of the Ebon.
The Enlightened order of the Solar.
Gaurdians of the Necronomicon (the gatekeepers).
The warriors of the Rainbow.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Jays, impressive display of jubilence!

Followers of the Moth.

^^^ If I had to pick a favorite cult to join and wasn't so anti-social, this would be it.

[clayseason1]

I have an idea (not a theory yet) and after searching, cannot find any active discussion relating to the idea except this one. I thought I would post it here as it most closely alligns with this subject.

I think perhaps somehow the plot involves a parallel world - well, not exactly a parallel world, more of a "twin" world - well, not exactly a "twin" world, more like a "mirror" world - Perhaps a "dark matter" mirror world.

Perhaps there were two planes, one from each world, with each world's same passengers. One of the planes crash, the other maybe lands safely but not before crossing into some shared space, during which some passengers perhaps "merged" before each plane continues on. (Maybe our Locke's essence - paralyzed- merged with the other Locke, who maybe wasn't paralyzed.)

I know - sounds crazy - but that's never stopped me before - so I figure - why let it stop me now. :D

I thought this may be the best thread to explore the possibility of a "dark matter" mirror world and it's possible implications.

[thoughtform]

That idea has always intrigued me. Especially after the white rabbit titled episode. Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass" reminds me of what you are saying. The world on the other side of the mirror appears to be the same as our world, until Alice goes through and discovers all the very strange things there.
Even the shape of the island on Danielle's map kinda reminds me of mirror images.
Did you ever see the South Park episode where Cartman experiences this? His doppleganger and him switch realms and it is extremely funny! Watch it if you get a chance.

[yung23]

in re: to the illuminati bieng cliche'...
yeah I agree, it's little cliche'..(no thankx to laura craft)

...but so are dinosaurs, UFOs, cloning, nanites, the matrix etc... its gotta be one...I like to play with Illuminati... to me, its not so tired, just taboo.
I know I saw a logo like our oceanic one in the vatican as well...

the ill really wanted one of "them" in the vatican..


jay , May I sugest societies that base them selves on this 'island' without having ever been there also, a bit like the 'paradise' of the hashishim (?), a place that they are promised that they will eventually go if they have done 'the masters' work.....

that was good.

heres the vatican ceiling/floor sign, it made me perk up...

http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/7977/pdvd2278tj.th.png (http://img347.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pdvd2278tj.png)

looks a little familiar..

not that this is the Ill. sign, just thought it may be connected...

I still get the impression this flight was a set-up somehow.
the company sign is like a bunch of watchers" watching an island...

[yung23]

bump of course.

apparently damon even admitted, 23 and wilson therefore? the Illuminati are big in the scheme of lost...

that and other dimensions.. tesseracts, did wilson ever speak of them ??

anyone ?

[LostInWilderness]

Wednesday night I caught some grief for linking a newbie whirlpool washer thread to this theory. My critics were shortsighted although I knew exactly what I was doing, and they know who they are. ;)

In the opening scene of "Man of Science, Man of Faith" we have a barrage of whirlpool images in quick succession. First we get the spinning album (yeah, I mean vinyl,) followed quickly by the bicycle gear, the whirlpool washer (and for those of you who think this is a continuity error, think again - this is part of a sequence of symbols,) and finally the blender. I can't say of the whirlpool symbolism -> Lorenz attractor -> chaos, but the symbolism itself is undeniable. I hope SHBL will explain it to us all.

(edited to correct LiW's spelling of "vinyl")

[sawyerhasbestlines]

we have a barrage of whirlpool images in quick succession

LIW, :eek I need to be kicked in the head by the slipper of a whirling dirvish for not noticing all the concentrated swirling vortexes. You are on your game.

"A chaotic system is one in which a tiny change can have a huge effect. Thus a butterfly in China can cause a hurricane in the Atlantic." I guess we can blame Desmond and the numbers.

[yung23]

your right < i didnt even notice the swirling pattern.

ANd I cant blame anyone for not getting into this thread.. its a little vague partly due to my involvement, the ideas I present are unclear, but thats kinda the point at the same time. JJ has taken on quite a difficult task if he plans to realsiticly explain I-ching ideas synchronicity or cursed numbers, but he's done it for a reason, look at all the talk.

he doesnt have any other option though, he's been forbidden from using aliens, purgatory, dreams,...

lets give him, miracles, and destiny, and robert anton wilson..
and william burroughs, stephen hawking, da vinci, the templar knights, the holy grail, the fountain of youth..
all the odd ones.

these are all of our world so we have all researched them because of lost, & I think he's using what we through at him.

[artemisia14]

I din't notice all the whirlpool imagery. Great catch! Any on the mural?

[LostInWilderness]

The underground structure itself appears to be circular - it immediately struck me as similar to a particle accelerator. But it doesn't have to be circular, it could a spiral as well. Maybe it's a "chaos generator." Surely a fictional chaos generator could change the probability of events occuring, making otherwise virtually impossible coincidences commonplace.

Maybe a butterfly in China caused all the lostaways to end up on the island.

Or maybe it's a chaos negator, i.e. it can change chaotic systems into linear systems, where the effects of an input on the system can be perfectly determined regardless of the actions of numerous variables along the way.

[jaystao]

"Or maybe it's a chaos negator, i.e. it can change chaotic systems into linear systems, where the effects of an input on the system can be perfectly determined regardless of the actions of numerous variables along the way."

I like. Probability matrix generator anyone(that is to say making order out of chaos). Bumping this up for prosperity. Plust, got a theory on an aspect of time. The numbers are 'ordered' from lower to higher. Low order to high order. Any ideas?

Also, we talked about the theory of syncronicity extensively before, from attractors to i-ching. I was wondering if anyone would like to discuss 'the theory of novelty' which is connected to all this stuff. Any takers?

[yung23]

I'd join in if I knew a bit about it, So I googled it.. seems along the same - abstract-where is this going- line...

what do you think their trying to say jays ?
i-ching, synchronicity, the 23 enigma, mathematics, magnetism (sorry even the misleading hints count!), computers from the 70's, destiny, fate, karma,... how does it work together ? (I get life... but LOST?)


one more episode......then we'll have it..

I bet each one of us here who has read these related threads will be watching the show then all together will go..

AHAAAAAA !

[jaystao]

Not me, I'm always three days behind. And actually I don't think they'll show us anything we don't already know. I'm expecting maybe a tunnel, a secret door that cant be opened. A twisty old stair way. And maybe a few fire works. A glass elevaotr. I think magnetism isn't such a bad idea actually, it deserves a revamp. Gotta take my girl to the zoo, school holidays and all.

[yung23]

still amazed by this thread guys, looking at that link again, nowadays.. holy crap , its been right here the whole time..

jj must love this thread.


from SHTBL original link on page one...
posted way back just after numbers..
the number 23 is what did it for me..

www.rotten.com/library/occult/sacred-geometry/ (http://www.rotten.com/library/occult/sacred-geometry/)



edit..

I wonder if we'll get a chinese hint other than i-ching... (a sword? that would be cool, sawyer walking around with an old chinese sword, or even kate ! BADASS !)
there were many sects of templar knights around this time, a lot of them were from other religions (such as islam).. perhaps back then a connection was developed that set about a secret sect of chinese templars, who have also gone underground like the rest of the illuminati (called so because of them being underground, hidden from sight)..

and now suns father is somehow a decendant, with present day wealth, the same friggin money from his forefathers and the masons even...

[jaystao]

Man, I forgot all about that link as well. Its all there! But it always was there. JJ is on the same hyper space tangent as the rest of us. If we follow will we find the hyper-I-ching-luck-leprecon with the pot of cursed mayan gold artifacts?

Now why does this link come up when my mind is suddenly filled with pyrimids and cosmological 'star gazing'? Synchronicity plagues me ever since I started watching this show.

My next question Yung 23, knowing from what we know about the nature of this island and where the narrative structure tends to lead as both a supernatural mystery and an action genre, in what season will we find the 'pyrimid' and in what context will it be found?

[jaystao]

Man, I forgot all about that link as well. Its all there! But it always was there. JJ is on the same hyper space tangent as the rest of us. If we follow will we find the hyper-I-ching-luck-leprecon with the pot of cursed mayan gold artifacts?

Now why does this link come up when my mind is suddenly filled with pyrimids and cosmological 'star gazing'? Synchronicity plagues me ever since I started watching this show.

My next question Yung 23, knowing from what we know about the nature of this island and where the narrative structure tends to lead as both a supernatural mystery and an action genre, in what season will we find the 'pyrimid' and in what context will it be found?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I'm wondering if Desmond's pad itself reflects the I-Ching symbol - in that there would be different areas or sectors - sort of like the secret underground rooms in pyrmids.

[yung23]

hmmm, the all seeing eye pyramid ?

interesting indeed.. think the others whispers, the sense of being watched...

who says it has to be a huge pyramid too ?
perhaps its some sort of small mosque... in the big computer room we have yet to see....

I'm betting the finale season..

that would answer a lot.

still trying to understand the Illuminatis position with synchronicity.. maybe its them instead of god ?

seemingly setting things up to appear as coincidence..

if they see all, there would be no stopping them.. maybe thats what the templars found long ago.. some sort of prophecy sphere... a real life working 8 ball.

walt WAS wet, so perhaps its a reflection pond or the fountain of youth...

did they not look at people in HR puffnStuffs adventures the same way, the old witch looking in a pot ?..

[jmb3rg3r]

www.rotten.com/library/oc...-geometry/ (http://www.rotten.com/library/occult/sacred-geometry/)

I'm glad you liked the article. :)

[yung23]

you wrote that page ?

!!!

WOW ! how long ago ?

[jmb3rg3r]

I'd have to check my records, but I'm guessing it was probably more than a year and a half ago...

[jaystao]

Hah, running around trying not to see anything in regards to episode three, but I gotta respond to this! Egoplexcom that was a great read even that long ago, 'jays tao makes bowing motion from head to bowls accordingly'. You talk about writing material perhaps you could open something in general discussions (or whatever is outside of LOST), and discuss some of your work. I'm a partime, freelance writer/director of short films outside of my own job and I'd love to share and hear some of your ideas. I'm interested in science fiction and spiritualist narrative mostly. This deserves its own thread. Not that fan fic mills and boons area but something more serious.

[jmb3rg3r]

Sure! Love to... is there an OT zone? Let's call the thread something inviting, eh, like Insane Esoteric Artists or somethin' and see who falls down the rabbit hole...

I've written a few (still unproduced) screenplays, but I am good friends with the writer and producer of Vampire Trailer Park, so that counts for something!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

EgoComplex, I'm happy that I found your link months ago, and that you found your way to Lost-TV. You've made the big impression on me as a recent poster, so as Chance would say, this news is "doubly delicious."

Yung would appreciate the odds and synchronicity of this. Should I go out and buy us all a lotto ticket?

Happy dance. happy dance.

[jmb3rg3r]

No byline on the articles in the Rotten Library, so you wouldn't have known...

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Well I went back and gave you credit in the beginnning of the post... and edited my last awkward post.

Again, glad you are here. More boxes of cookies to ya.

[jaystao]

Man, I've just watched the third episode and what a load of bollucks! Sorry, but who are they trying to kid? Sure people were messing around with science experiments and what not, tapping into things which mortal men were never meant yadayada. But I'm coming to think this place has always been weired, long before Dharma enterpizes set camp there or slave ships appeared on the island, if they ever actually did. Multiple world theory may sum it up, but the island is an attractor of weired occurences and phenomenon. Anything and everything that messes with some arcane juxtaposition of primal forces seems to appear at this 'junction' in time and spcae (nice narrative ploy by the way to come up with any LOST conceptual motif). And ultimately perhaps the island is a mishmash of different times, places and moments all collecting under the umbrella of 'projects' and mysterious phenomena. People are all pointing at Dharma now like 'that must be it', but it only points to one thing, this whole island is a hot spot of super-natural activity and I'm willing to bet Dharma aren't the first to try and conduct experiments or expeditions to this place - others have been here and perhaps continue to be here since 'the beginning' what ever crux that maybe. Things are going to get a lot weirder and alot more spiritual before this show is through and ultimately we may have to storm and reinvent such theories as 'purgatory' 'aliens' or 'atlantis' for the answers. Leap of faith indeed.

[yung23]

i know how you feel.
the whole skinners box thing has got me weirded out..dont know what their pulling.

[jmb3rg3r]

I call fakeout.

[the Chameleon]

But I'm coming to think this place has always been weired, long before Dharma enterpizes set camp there or slave ships appeared on the island, if they ever actually did. Multiple world theory may sum it up, but the island is an attractor of weired occurences and phenomenon.

The writers stated that everything that's happening (on the island) has been going on for millenium.....



0]

[yung23]

The writers stated...:lol

sorry, its almost laughable now.

[LostInWilderness]

Bollucks is an understatement. I still think there's substance under the cheese. I can't express my disappointment with this episode, the cheese, the caricatures of our characters. Maybe I'm naive, but I keep thinking there's something else there. Beneath the conscious we'll find meaning in this episode. I bought a new microscope, but I'm afraid I will waste many an hour examining a turd. If the newbies let me.

How come Charlie didn't get beaten like Sawyer?

How come nobody has been invited bowling?

[jaystao]

There are these butterflies on the island see.... they metamorph from one form or another, but really just butterflies eventually (they even use light and dark qaulities to create the patterns of their bodies and minds - similar to a fax machine) and may even have 'cocoons' in and around the island..... and every so often they flap their wings......

[yung23]

today I was out in Aurora helping install Satelittes..
we had lunch at a random burger joint.

when we got there I noticed (like always) that the address had the number 23 in it. as always, I scanned the scene before entering.
the number makes me paranoid & alert.

anyways.. after eating I went to use the bathroom.
just outside the door there hung a "kramer" painting.
http://www.seinfeld-fan.net/pictures/kramer/kramer027.jpg




guess what episode they choose to run tonight ?
it is on right now. the very episode with the painting.

hows that for synchronicity ?

(btw, just to add to the sillyness of it all, my nickname in college was kramer. I had spikey bangs and stumbled alot)

[yung23]

also, today I learned our satelittes appear to stay in position above the earth as the earth rotates...
our dish's must always face southwest



so, are there non-synchronized satelittes as well ? cause the whole 108/Sat. thing depends on them.


Unless, the whole world where the island exists is rotating back into position under the stationary satelitte of the real world.

[jmb3rg3r]

There are geostationary satellites whose orbits are timed exactly to the Earth's rotation in order to keep them over the same location all the time. Other satellites orbit the earth at regular intervals.

[jaystao]

Now thats syncronicity, I was reading the exact same satellite stuff in my 'inventions' book last night. Was gonna post on it too..... spooky.

Yung look up an early space project called 'echo 1'. As an example of what you might be thinking.... Arther C Clark originally figured out the exact 'stationary' motion needed for certain communication satellites to work. Facinating stuff....

I agree, 108 is connected to a satelite type relay, and maybe a space window etc..... however it 'seems' to fit, but I just cant quite make it work entirely in light of certain sensibilities......

[yung23]

I knew there were non-synchronous ones..
I had seen this before with remote sensing research.


ERBS; UARS; ADEOS
Like some of the first metsats, several U.S. missions in the past 14 years have been devoted primarily to atmospheric/climate research. On October 5, 1984, ERBS (Earth Radiation Budget Satellite) went into a non-synchronous orbit that permits sampling at various times of day. Its ERBE consists of two instruments, a scanner and a non-scanner, designed to measure diurnal variations of incoming solar radiation and its differential absorption by the atmosphere. The latter has five broadband channels, one looking solarward, the others at Earth, over wavelength intervals of 0.2 - 5.0 µm; the scanner's three channels perform similar functions. ERBS also carried SAGE-II (Stratospheric Aerosol and Gas Experiment) a limb sounder which uses 4 bands (0.385; 0.45; 0.60; 1.0 µm) to measure aerosol and Rayleigh (fine-particle) scattering whenever the satellite can view sunrise and sunset as it orbits. An ERBE determination of long wavelength radiant flux density during 1985-86 appears on the top; aerosol concentrations over a period of six weeks during summer 1991 as measured by SAGE-II is shown on the bottom (Note: these instruments have been flown on other satellites, including two in the NOAA series.)

[sgtdraino]

These are the core questions that are the thruline in LOST. Locke is always presenting choices and is of the mindset that one creates one's own luck: (free-will). In contrast, the widow in Australia believed the numbers were not cursed, and that she would have lost her foot anyway in the accident. She was in the (destiny) camp.

We think in parallel. Though I am with those who think Locke believes in both free will and destiny. Sometimes it is possible to make choices, sometimes certain things are fated to be.

I am (still) in total agreement that the mysteries of the numbers have to do with quantum mechanics and chaos theory.

But what has it got to do with 'chaos' theory?

My answer: The introduction of the 'chaos' gene. A human mutation that is somehow able to make random things occur, similar to the miracles attributed to Christ and other human prophets of the devine. A living probability matrix inherant in our DNA, where certain minds are somehow in rythym to random cyclic fluctuations in the cosmos 'and' more importantly can control it. They are always in the right place at the right time (or in the wrong place at the wrong time as a reverse cycle).

My thoughts run along these lines... except that I don't think it's a natural mutation. I think it's something that is caused by the numbers drug (the drug Desmond takes, labelled with the numbers). At this point, I think DHARMA's I-Ching insignia refers to the 64 I-Ching hexagrams corellating with the 64 possible genetic code combinations. I think the numbers, 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, refer to a specific string of these combinations which is capable of altering humans on a cellular level. And I think that microscopic butterfly wing-flap is what enables such humans to alter the laws of probability on a larger scale.

Also worth noting that quantum mechanics deals with electromagnetic fields.

I think "the incident" may be DHARMA's attempt to duplicate the numbers project on an atomic or subatomic level, rather than just a cellular level. To influence not just living things, but ALL matter. Obviously things did not go as planned. We already see the bad side-effect the numbers have had on Hurley. He himself is lucky, but he's become a black hole sucking the good luck out of all those around him. Perhaps if the countdown finally ends completely, and the button isn't pressed in time, something similar will happen to the entire island. Hell, maybe it would literally open up a black hole right in the middle of Station 3! That would, indeed, destroy the world.

[jaystao]

My thoughts run along these lines... except that I don't think it's a natural mutation. I think it's something that is caused by the numbers drug (the drug Desmond takes, labelled with the numbers). At this point, I think DHARMA's I-Ching insignia refers to the 64 I-Ching hexagrams corellating with the 64 possible genetic code combinations. I think the numbers, 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, refer to a specific string of these combinations which is capable of altering humans on a cellular level. And I think that microscopic butterfly wing-flap is what enables such humans to alter the laws of probability on a larger scale.

Absolutely! Can I say it? PROBABILITY MATRIX! A system using Biomial distribution and factual like programming to 'count' howmany times an 'event' take place! I contend that there is a probability matrix on the island, something that not only determines random flutuations and patterns but 'controlls' them. Part of the nature of our experiment. Controll tower? Unless there is an air strip or rocket pad on the island, a control tower would be at the heart of such a 'phildelphia' like experment (though in terms of 'viewing' the effects of such a matrix). A Cyclic pattern maker of sorts (mayhap that is where Walt is?).

Kate espeacially shows advanced signs of such a program. Perhaps they were tampering with 'children' long before our island showed in their equation or maybe vice a versa. They used people as guine pigs or 'samples' and took something unique out of them? Very similar to what is perhaps proposed in the 'unbreakable' thread.

I like the way you dig brother! Lets see what else you can unearth.

PS, the Amino acid composition you speak off might relate somewhat to this...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/jaystao/mandala.jpg

www.tortuga.com/science/DNA/1.html (http://www.tortuga.com/science/DNA/1.html)

I still like butter flies though.....

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/jaystao/symbols.jpg

The numbers and possible amino symbolism stuff.....

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I've been a way for awhile, nice to come back and see the old chaos thread resurrected, hopefully in time for an Ethan resurrection. If were are lucky he will be ensconced in a halo of butterflies circling his newly regenerated head.

....

Amino acids? Please explain.:Booky:

[sgtdraino]

Well, Ethan's definitely been putting Numbers Drug in Aaron! Same stuff Desmond was taking, same label.

[LostInWilderness]

Desmond was chaotic to match the whirlpool images in the hatch.

[yung23]

this thread is where it all began, thanks SHTBL

how about we add some pretty stars to it ?

just look at the gold in here, I forgot about most of this even being mentioned here,
I would have linked to it once every paragraph in my thread !

this even sounds like the vectors idea..


Mathematically, fractals are pictures that result from iterations of nonlinear equations, usually in a feedback loop. Using the output value for the next input value, a set of points is produced. Graphing these points produces images. Again, by creating a vast number of points using computers to generate those points, mathematicians discovered these wonderfully complex images which were called fractals, a term coined by Benoit Mandelbrot, one of the first to discover and examine these images. Two important properties of fractals are:

* * * * • * * * * self-similarity




its all the same ideas, but this was done long ago, with even less to go on !

even these days we are looking at DNA and i-ching in detail in sarahrs thread,
and my own QH theory was firmly based in a lot of stuff mentioned here...
QH theory needs an understanding of chaos theory to work.




What all this means, simply put, is that our bodies, minds, souls and even our DNA contain the unified blueprint for everything in the universe. If consciousness itself is fractal, with a mathematical base, then it stands to reason that these shapes and structures are literally hardwired into whatever it is that makes people people, whether they surface in dreams, visions or simply as a product of thinking about stuff too much.


how similar to QH theory..


I am sorry sawyer, I damn near forgot.
you may Jesus Stick me once. :thwak:


god bless the bump.:bump:

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Thanks for the props, Yung.

I read a lot of new threads that remind me of what this thread was about.

Yet this year I lack the zeal and time unfortunately to keep the gas in the tank.

Been thinking about fractals though again lately, or as you better state it: "self similarity". Maybe when I get some quiet time, I'll try to post more on it. Thanks for not letting this thread fall off the cliff.
- SHBL

[Warthawg1]

My mommy told me that too much self stimularity would make me go blind.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

You type pretty well for a blind guy.:nanabobo:

[Warthawg1]

Braille keyboard

[sawyerhasbestlines]

And your love for Libby and Rollergirls?

[Warthawg1]

Well actually I don't need braille.

Mommy lied to me about that one.

[LostInWilderness]

Has the type of concrete used to build the hatch become the important focus of Lost instead of things like Chaos Theory and it's applications?

[jaystao]

Long time since this old thread has been bumped and an interesting question. Judging from the various threads around at the moment I think rather it is a 'merging' of how concrete is mixed and chaos theory. Perhaps if you get enough butterflies to flutter around, concrete will mix itself? Something to read at any rate....

[clayseason1]

You know what I can't get out of my head?

from EPISODE 21 - ?


EKO: This cross was worn by my brother, Yemi. Yemi was a great man, a priest, a man of God. And because I betrayed him he was shot and died. He was placed on a plane which took off from an airstrip in Nigeria half a world from here. Then, the plane that I was on crashed on this island. And somehow, here, I found my brother again. I found him in the same plane that took off from Nigeria. In the same plane that lies above us now -- that has concealed this place. [B]And I took this cross from around Yemi's neck and put it back on mine, just as it was on the day I first took another man's life. So let me ask you -- how can you say this is meaningless? I believe the work being done in the hatch is more important than anything. If you will not continue to push the button, John, I will.
"just as it was on the day I first took another man's life"

sawyerhasbestlines
The name "chaos theory" comes from the fact that the systems that the theory describes are apparently disordered, but chaos theory is really about finding the underlying order in apparently random data.
....................................
There's a theory floating around in the world of math/science that chaos is actually ordered. What we perceive to be randomness actually isn't truly random. The central idea is the Butterfly Effect: a butterfly flapping it's wings in China can affect weather patterns in New York City.

What if "the incident" fractured the underlying order of our system and through the butterfly effect changed the course of what should have happened?

Maybe Yemi was destined to shoot that old man and Eko was destined to become the priest as in "the day I first took another man's life"?

Recall the scene with Jack in the emergency room when Sarah and Rutherford were brought in - both in critical condition. I have the distinct impression that Jack was "supposed" to save Rutherford but instead saved Sarah. (It's a strange scene - almost surreal.) Saving the wrong person could be the butterfly effect of the fractured system.

Maybe the people who are catalysts in certain events are being drawn to the island because only they can repair the fracture and return the underlying order.

[LostInWilderness]

Drabauer and I talked a lot about tipping points in an old thread. It kind of sounds like you're saying the incident might have affected the outcome of all those tipping points which led us to the events on the island. We didn't know about the incident at the time, but it sounds like you're thinking something similar.

[clayseason1]

It kind of sounds like you're saying the incident might have affected the outcome of all those tipping points which led us to the events on the island.
I would like to read that thread. Yes it is something like the "tipping points". Let's see if I can illustrate what I'm thinking.

Imagine water flowing along a river bed. There are small rocks and large rocks jutting out of the water. (These rocks would be the "tipping points".) The flow of the water depends on how it hits those rocks. Some of the smaller rocks will have little impact on the course of the water. However the larger rocks have a significant impact on the direction the water takes after it hits the rock. If you reposition the larger rocks or if the smaller rocks are now larger then the flow of the water will be changed from the course it was meant to take.

Imagine a sequence of events (like the flowing water) that is set in motion. The direction of the sequence is impacted by the "rocks" or decisions ("tipping points") made by the people caught up in the chain of events. As indicated by shbl, chaos theory suggests that all things are bound by an underlying order (the natural flow of the water).

I think something happened that disturbed the natural flow and as a result the "rocks" or "tipping points" changed which altered the course of events that were supposed to happen. For example, if Jack had chosen to save Rutherford instead of Sarah:

Shannon would have accepted the prestigious internship and the course of her life would have been dramatically different.
Sarah would have died - Jack probably would not have gone to the stadium and thereby would not have met Desmond.
Jack would not have performed a "miraculous" surgery and Gabriela would not have brought her father to Jack for surgery.

So Jack is a "big rock" or significant "tipping point" in the sequence of events. His one decision to save Sarah first before Rutherford had a significant "butterfly effect" on the destinies of many people.

Review that scene when Jack makes his decision. I'm convinced that TPTB intended to convey the impression that Jack was supposed to choose to work on Rutherford but instead chose to work on Sarah. If that is correct, then it is a huge clue to the LOST mystery.

I believe there is an event at the heart of the LOST story which is the beginning of all the story lines (butterfly effects) we are seeing. I posted above that the event may have been "the incident" as described in the orientation film, but in retrospect, I think "the incident" may be another result (or butterfly effect) of that "beginning event".

Another point that bothers me is TPTB have gone out of there way to keep factual references out of LOST, such as world leaders or specific events and time frames. I have to wonder if we are indeed viewing an "alternate reality" caused by that "beginning event" which split our timeline when it changed the underlying order.

I don't know if I explained any of that well enough but that's the best I can do on two cups of coffee. :coffeedunk:

eta: Given what we know so far, I think the "beginning event" happened around the time of the Black Rock's arrival on the island. I don't think Danielle drew the maps that everyone refers to as "Danielle's maps". I think she found them on the Black Rock. She may have added information to the maps but she didn't draw them. They look older than 16 years. They look like maps that belong on the Black Rock, imo.

[MMDG]

I'll have to rewatch that episode!

[LostInWilderness]

I bumped the other thread.
I think something happened that disturbed the natural flow and as a result the "rocks" or "tipping points" changed which altered the course of events that were supposed to happen.
I keep coming back to this idea too. It's the idea behind my collapsing probabilities theory.

[NeillT006]

There is something going on in the TLE area which I won't talk about here because I know you two (CS and LIW) are obsessively adverse to such stuff.

I will say, however, that those discussions have made me think again about the several threads which have addressed Issac Azimov's Foundation series.

I read most of that series when I was young.

And now I am old.

So, my memories of it are not the sharpest. But, Hari Seldon's reduction to mathematical expression the behavior, over time, of large populations resonates with the big rocks and small pebbles analysis being discussed here.

CS, what better reason could there be for engineering wrinkles in time (or exploiting those naturally occurring) than to move a few rocks and pebbles around in order to avoid somewhat dire consequences foreseen by application of predictive tools?

N.

[Commedia Del'Lost]

This is a compelling idea, suggesting that some things were "meant to happen," and also some things were not meant to be. Jack's whole marriage, for example, would be something that was not meant to be.

Likewise, there are people are alive who are "supposed to be" dead. (Shades of that classic Star Trek episode, "City on the Edge of Forever").

Whether it's the flow of time or something else, I have long felt that "reality" or "existence" or what ever you want to call it has been "interfered with", with drastic consequences. I think the clearest proof of this is Hurley winning the lottery with the numbers, plus his run of bad luck, plus his friend yelling "You've opened the box!". And of course, those same numbers in the hatch.

Whatever happened, something has gone very wrong with the world, and it will be up to our Losties, teaming with the Others, to set things right.

[clayseason1]

Neill
There is something going on in the TLE area which I won't talk about here because I know you two (CS and LIW) are obsessively adverse to such stuff.
:p
Actually, I feel it important to rebut your compelling arguments for integrating TLE across the board as you constantly argue for it. I know I've missed a few threads - you're very good. :D

CS, what better reason could there be for engineering wrinkles in time (or exploiting those naturally occurring) than to move a few rocks and pebbles around in order to avoid somewhat dire consequences foreseen by application of predictive tools?
What predictive tools are you referring to? And such actions are doomed to ultimate failure as no one could predict all the "butterfly effects" - however small - that moving those "rocks" could cause. Wouldn't you agree? :Cheers:

Commedia Del'Lost
Whatever happened, something has gone very wrong with the world, and it will be up to our Losties, teaming with the Others, to set things right.
I think you are right! :Hippy:

[NeillT006]

What predictive tools are you referring to?

:tapedshut

N.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

What you guys are talking about above (the glytch within a predictable pattern) the glytch anomoly might be a strange attractor. All the button pushing may be an attempt to controll a natural occurring glytch.

In Lorenz attractors it's a double ended spiral... that is to say simplistically, when something is going down, something else is simultaneously moving up. In the beginning of this thread I applied it to the crashing of the plane. But in an abstract way, the idea can be applied to "people who are 'supposed' to die - glytch", and it's inverse.

....

Neil, can you provide a link to the Asimov stuff you are talking about for those of us who want to venture out... once a year.

[NeillT006]

Mathematical Forecasting and Psychohistory (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22347&highlight=Seldon) (careful, this one is in TLE)

Henry Gale similar to The Mule in Foundation (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15640&highlight=Seldon)

N.

[MMDG]

Well there you have it then.

[lacenaire]

\Hi

Very insteresting what you all guys are discussing.
Clayseason's posts were specially good.

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/636/possibleworldsxj0.jpg

LQ_Jones will be very happy if what you guys are talking about
turns out to be true. From the very beginning he talked about
ALTERNATE/PARALLEL UNIVERSES.

———————————————————————————————


You know me I like to join threads if I can.
— «Crazy musicians playing the violin using "diabolo in musica" accords resound in the background.»

Welcome to «THE TOWER»


http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/1138/varobordandoka8.jpg

- A Quantum Computer Neural Net ->> Dharmatel on the island
- Each Computer running its own simulation = ALTERNATE UNIVERSES with slightly different starting conditions ("changing god's knobs").
- At least one of the foundations of the system is the Human Connectivity Formula to provide «human tipping points» in order to generate a controlled chain of events (butterfly effects) for some ultimate plan
- All the alternate universes are sewn together in a central processing unit —CPU— called «the tower» following a certain set of directives: Hanso's agenda?
- The system generates «agents» to sew together the different alternate realities: the numbers themselves, computers obviously too, cars (how many «accidents» on the show so far?), the black objects (boxes, horses). Maybe each «agent» has a «key» to open «doors» into the different alternate universes?
- CERBERUS is a known «security system» based on key exchange between hosts.
- The «incident» would mean that at some point there was a «tear» in «the fabric» of reality.
- The system would be targeting all the possible «human tipping points» that caused the «tear» (or that are subsequent «small tipping points» of the original «incident») and would be trying to isolate them (on a desert island), purge them if necessary and recompile the source-code in order to repair the damage.
- Here maybe I'd add Yung's theories about the observer and the system's global topography and structure (growing space, the god particle, General Unified Theory, z2 numbers, Hanso, the user, the High Evolutionary... the whole enchilada).

[sawyerhasbestlines]

- and would be trying to isolate them (on a desert island), purge them if necessary and recompile the source-code in order to repair the damage.


I like that. Purification.

---------

Thanks Neil for the links *am reading them now*.

[jaystao]

Man, Lace. You rock my world. Loved the pic, loved the connections. Say does anyone here remember the old "Robin of Sherwood' tv program. I just bought the DVD of both seasons one and two and I found it interesting the relations expressed in the program between the old caltic world, the more modern fiefs, historical events helping further the narrative, christianity and the 'black magic' inherant in the show. Something was kindled when I watched it which for some reason made me think of the thread (and it wasn't the wonderous hammy acting or the simple yet masterful story telling). i dont know, could there be a connection - i'll keep looking. Just remember the wise words of 'Hern the Hunter' - "act without thinking"......

[clayseason1]

Say does anyone here remember the old "Robin of Sherwood' tv program.
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, riding through the glen
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, with his band of men
Feared by the bad, loved by the good
Robin Hood, Robin Hood, Robin Hood

I remember. :Hippy:

[yung23]

and WHY have I never rented this ?

http://www.thefreeimagehosting.com/Uploads/Images/7259593300000Possible%20Worlds.jpg


it's next on my list !

[clayseason1]

Neill
CS, what better reason could there be for engineering wrinkles in time (or exploiting those naturally occurring) than to move a few rocks and pebbles around in order to avoid somewhat dire consequences foreseen by application of predictive tools?
What if.....
what we are seeing is really a future reality being played out by several people with precognition and/or remote viewing abilities currently (in their present reality - on the island when the DeGroots first started their studies) trying to manipulate future events and people to avoid a foreseen event or to cause a potential event.

As I noted above, it would be difficult to account for all of the butterfly effects caused by manipulating "a few rocks and pebbles" but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't attempt to do just that.

This could also account for that "time loop" feeling I can't shake. Maybe this is just one of the times this future scenario has been "played out".

[NeillT006]

Yep. That is sort of what I had in mind. I would find the premise satisfying.

N.

[clayseason1]

Such a premise would lend considerable weight to........

(clayseason looks cautiously to the left and then cautiously to the right and then whispers......)

Lacenaire's "unreliable narrator" concept.

:swoon:

[lacenaire]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people had the same idea before me.
If you actually check the theories before I started that thread
the majority was thinking in those terms.
A lot of people here suspects the story in some way or other.
The concept is Genette's, the French narratologist.

[clayseason1]

I think people were questioning the placement of some "props" suddenly being were they were not before (which could be attributed quite simply to continuity errors) or "props" like the octagonal box appearing in flashbacks and in the Swan station.

Based upon the premise that "precogs" and remote viewers are (in their present time) playing out a future scenario (most probably repetitively) and manipulating the "rocks" and "pebbles" until the desired outcome is achieved, presents a scenario that could explain many things including the "travelling props". These could merely be "artifacts" that are unconciously dragged into the sequence of events.

[Hurley4Prez]

I'm pretty sure a lot of people had the same idea before me.
If you actually check the theories before I started that thread
the majority was thinking in those terms.
A lot of people here suspects the story in some way or other.
The concept is Genette's, the French narratologist.
So fu&^%$#ckin' vague, I'm not sure if you're making sense.

[jaystao]

Based upon the premise that "precogs" and remote viewers are (in their present time) playing out a future scenario (most probably repetitively) and manipulating the "rocks" and "pebbles" until the desired outcome is achieved, presents a scenario that could explain many things including the "travelling props". These could merely be "artifacts" that are unconciously dragged into the sequence of events.

Like how you put this. Are you familier of the concept of 'channeling' where the spirits of the dead use items and bodies of the living to transfer their essence through - a bridge or doorway from one world to the next - though in this instance it could be embodied as some kind of ideology or ideas. Perhaps these props are channeling some kind of extraordinary past contrivance which is in some way 'revived' in the modern world. Tranferance also has a role here - an action, a possibility, a transfering of will from one time to another by way of items, familiers and 'possesion'.

[NeillT006]

Are you familier of the concept of 'channeling' where the spirits of the dead use items and bodies of the living to transfer their essence through - a bridge or doorway from one world to the next

I have always liked that idea. I think people thought I was playing:

Channeling for Boone (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218923&postcount=1).
N.

[jaystao]

So, back to hovering Jack, V.2, with the semi-lucid Sawyer. Wait. Sawyer speaks:

"I love her."

Hmm.

First we have "Tell Shannon ......."

The we get "I love her."

Is it Sawyer talking about Kate? Or, is it Sawyer at all?

Interesting... inteeeresting! Great example.

[clayseason1]

Imagine water flowing along a river bed. There are small rocks and large rocks jutting out of the water. (These rocks would be the "tipping points".) The flow of the water depends on how it hits those rocks. Some of the smaller rocks will have little impact on the course of the water. However the larger rocks have a significant impact on the direction the water takes after it hits the rock. If you reposition the larger rocks or if the smaller rocks are now larger then the flow of the water will be changed from the course it was meant to take.

Imagine a sequence of events (like the flowing water) that is set in motion. The direction of the sequence is impacted by the "rocks" or decisions ("tipping points") made by the people caught up in the chain of events. As indicated by shbl, chaos theory suggests that all things are bound by an underlying order (the natural flow of the water).
I think Desmond is moving rocks around and changing the course of the future.

Unlike others, I do not believe that Desmond came away from the implosion with precognitive abilities. I believe that during the implosion he was in a state or "dimension" that allowed him to see the future events that would unfold. Upon his return, he was very disturbed and spent a long time alone, thinking. During that time, he decided to see if he could change what he had seen. With the lightning rod experiment, he saw that he could change the flow of events. I think we need to pay particular attention to Desmond's actions.

In "The Cost of Living", Desmond sits on the beach and tells Locke and Sayid that he thinks the computer found in the Pearl could be used to communicate with other stations. (He's moving a rock.) While they were gathering supplies to go to the Pearl, Desmond had a conversation with Locke at the water trough. He seemed concerned that they were going after Eko (perhaps the future he did see), rather than go to the Pearl. (I don't think Desmond would have gone with them if they were going just to find Eko.)

Later, when they discover Eko dying, Desmond is not surprised. However, in "I do" he is surprised when Locke says they will bury Eko there, rather than take him back to the beach." (I think Desmond, when seeing the future during the implosion, saw Locke and his group bring Eko's body back to the beach for burial.) Desmond now has got to realize that his actions (moving rocks) will develop "butterfly effects" that he has no control over.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

CS,

In terms of butterfly effect, I'm wondering if Desmond has the capacity to see the entire effect from beginning to end with his one chess moves of metaphorically moving a rock, or making a lightening rod.

I get the feeling Desmond gets do-overs to change rocks all the time. If so, I wonder if he has collective memories from other incidents where he altered destiny (like the lightening rod). Or if every time, he starts over - tabala rasa and goes through a series of trial and error do-overs.

My thoughts of "see you on the other side brotha," means see you on the other side this time around, and maybe I'll get things right this time. Something the others and losties have embedded in their collective language from the repetition of overuse.

ETA: Desmond seems trapped in a sysiphean task of do-overs. I'm thinking of all his versions of prisons, from real prisons, army duty, the years in the hatch, out at sea in the boat, twice meeting Jack. He must have a deep sense of mission or purpose to keep making the sacrifices that put him in the repetition of isolation and prison. Or he's the key to these chain of events.

[clayseason1]

sawyerhasbestlines
In terms of butterfly effect, I'm wondering if Desmond has the capacity to see the entire effect from beginning to end with his one chess moves of metaphorically moving a rock, or making a lightening rod.
I don't think he does. If he did, he would not have been surprised when Locke said they would bury Eko in the jungle - not take him back to the beach.

My thoughts of "see you on the other side brotha," means see you on the other side this time around, and maybe I'll get things right this time.
Time loop? ...and Desmond the controlling factor?....hmmm....need to think about that.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

sawyerhasbestlines

I don't think he does. If he did, he would not have been surprised when Locke said they would bury Eko in the jungle - not take him back to the beach.



I don't think he does either. More explanation in the discussions thread you and I were just both in.

I think they all have repeated these scenarios before to some extent.

But Desmond comes in and out altering events, or he has a heightened ability to remember more. Hurley may also have heightened memory. So for instance, in one version, Desmond does something that has an effect on whether Christian lives or dies. Maybe the havids are residual imprints from a prior alternate "time loop" that made it into this version of reality. I'm thinking this is why they share vernacular. But because there is repetition, they all hold onto some imprinted vague memory that feels like "deja vu" - some more than others. Maybe in a prior scenario, Sun couldn't kill Colleen, and that's why she's confident that Sun wouldn't kill her.

There may be a couple people who are totally aware of what's going on, like Benry - and maybe Penelope. This may even be why Benry has so much power and how they have info on everybody, even recorded voices of dead people. Been there, done that.

I think Desmond is stuck in the middle of feeling his way through with what he would define as instinct, but the instinct is that he's caught in an endless sisiphean task of doing over.

[Commedia Del'Lost]

I agree with this.

He is somehow able, or suddenly finds himself, at different points in time, but retains only a vague residual memory of events in other timelines.

If he is on a mission to change the course of events it may be because in one he has witnesssed the end of humanity and is trying to stop this from ever happening.

That is also one possible explanation for the Others extremely bizarre and cruel behavior. Thay they also believe they are saving the world.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Thay they also believe they are saving the world.

That makes total sense.

Then is a logical conclusion, that Benry had manipulated who got on flight 815: Jack to fix his tumor, Claire with Aaron for whatever reason, etc.

Or is pretty static and predictable, that more or less, the same people always get on the plane, and from prior experience who is good or bad is determined by who is useful or who doesn't try to kill them, or mess up their plans, etc.

[Commedia Del'Lost]

Then following this logic, the Others are "stuck." They are not so much actively saving the world as preventing it from being destroyed. There is something sort of sad, desperate and static about their little community.

They need to Losties to get unstuck -- to end the cycle of timelines where humanity is ended. Their current role involves self-sacrifice, but the ultimate solution will involve even more sacrifice by the Losties and the Others.

[badboy]

Using the rock and stream analogy: if Desmond was a rock in the stream, and he was picked up and hurled upstream to a point in the past, wouldn't this act change the flow of the stream in such a way that many of his future prophecies became useless due to 'his' flow changing because he was sent back?

What I'm asking you guys is.... If he was from a time when Claire and Aaron were struck by lightning, would he still be able to make predictions now that they are saved? Maybe now he can only predict the common occurances in both 'flows of the stream'. For instance, he would have been unable to effect Locke making his speech because he was going to do it anyway before he saw Desmond, as well as he would have been unable to effect the lightning striking on Claires hut. So can Desmond now only effect things that Claire, Aaron and himself have no influence over (ETA: Unless he acts in the same way he did before) ......?

[Commedia Del'Lost]

So can Desmond now only effect things that Claire, Aaron and himself have no influence over (ETA: Unless he acts in the same way he did before) ......?

Or if he goes back in time and tries all over again....

[clayseason1]

Maybe the havids are residual imprints from a prior alternate "time loop" that made it into this version of reality. I'm thinking this is why they share vernacular. But because there is repetition, they all hold onto some imprinted vague memory that feels like "deja vu" - some more than others.
It certainly would explain Jack's astounding memory, Sayid's knowledge of other people's lies and the disconnect among the survivors. Living in a constant state of deja vu would be surreal and I think people would question their own sanity and therefore be reluctant to share their feelings. It would also explain Jack's reluctance to go down into the hatch and more.

It would also add weight to my thought that Desmond is "the flame" - a phoenix rising from the ashes to start again.

When would the time loop have started though?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

It certainly would explain Jack's astounding memory, Sayid's knowledge of other people's lies and the disconnect among the survivors. Living in a constant state of deja vu would be surreal and I think people would question their own sanity and therefore be reluctant to share their feelings. It would also explain Jack's reluctance to go down into the hatch and more.

It would also add weight to my thought that Desmond is "the flame" - a phoenix rising from the ashes to start again.

When would the time loop have started though?

Wow, I love how you contextualized things like Sayid's knowlege of people lying, Jack reluctance of the hatch, etc.

Desmond as phoenix makes sense too, on so many levels, including his rebirth naked, and then Hurley finds him and gives him a spiral time loop t-shirt.

I can't figure out how/when the loop starts and if it's different for everyone, and overlapping. But I'm wondering if Desmond has been going through this repetition much, much longer than most everyone else. There might be a gradual inclusion of newbies who enter into it - like babies?

[clayseason1]

I can't figure out how/when the loop starts and if it's different for everyone, and overlapping
There are two instances that "feel" very strange to me and I've mentioned them before but here they are again.
1. Jack and Kate find "Adam and Eve" in the cave. Jack transfers the pouch from "Adam's pants' pocket"with one black stone and one white stone into his pants' pocket. I think this is a significant moment and has something to do with the deeper mystery of the island. By taking ownership of the pouch with the stones, did Jack unknowingly enter into the "game" (for want of a better word)?

2. I can't shake the feeling that Jack was really meant to save Rutherford instead of Sarah. I thought about what that would mean as far as a butterfly effect. So, if Jack had saved Rutherford:

Mean old step-mom would not have had control of the money. Shannon would have accepted the position at the school in New York and her path would have been quite different. She would not have been in Australia, scamming Boone out of money and consequently, neither she nor Boone would have been on flight 815.
Since Jack didn't operate on Sarah, he wouldn't have gone to the stadium to run, therefore he would not have met Desmond. (There probably isn't any difference there for Desmond, unless Jack didn't just turn his ankle - maybe he stepped on something which turned his ankle - thereby preventing Desmond from stepping on it later. Which may have prevented Desmond from entering the solo race. Just conjecture...)
However, since Jack did not save Sarah, he would not have been obsessed with finding out who the other man was and therefore would not have adversely affected Christian's attendance at AAA and quite possibly Christian would have remained sober. Therefore Christian would not have been drinking and botch the operation on "Beth" killing her and her unborn child, which ultimately led to his disgrace and exodus to Australia and maybe his death.
If Christian had not gone to Australia, neither would Ana Lucia. She would still be wanding people at the airport.
If Christian had not gone to Australia, Sawyer would not have gone back to kill Ducket and ultimately would not have been on flight 815 either.


It will be interesting to see other butterfly effects develop as we learn more this season.

I think making note of these effects may help us determine the beginning of the time loop, if it is indeed one.

[Commedia Del'Lost]

Those are all good points. I've said that I think Jack altered the proper course of events when he fixed Sarah.

One could argue that Jack's insistence on getting him and his father's casket on board slowed it down just enough to allow Hurley to arrive on time, but actually I tend to think that Hurley's presence is example of the Island's weirdness having off-island effects, via his use of the numbers.

In any case, it all goes back to Desmond's remark, "what if you did fix her?"

Well, he did. And now we are witnessing the "what if."

[time is a river]

If Christian had not gone to Australia, Sawyer would not have gone back to kill Ducket and ultimately would not have been on flight 815 either.

This was the only one i didn't get. Can you explain?

[clayseason1]

CHRISTIAN SHEPARD: One simple phone call and I could fix everything.
SAWYER: Why don't you?
CHRISTIAN SHEPARD: Because I am weak. This business that you have, will it ease your suffering?
SAWYER: Yeah.
CHRISTIAN SHEPARD: Then what are you doing here?
SAWYER: It ain't that simple.
CHRISTIAN SHEPARD: Of course it is. Unless you want to end up like me, of course it is.
Without this conversation with Christian, it is highly unlikely that Sawyer would have gone back to kill Duckett. Recall that he had already been out to the shrimp truck and had the perfect opportunity to shoot him. At the last minute, he realized that he just wasn't the "killing type". He left and returned to the bar. Christian's conversation with Sawyer pointed out that not solving the issue was a sign of weakness and if Sawyer didn't want to end up like him (weak and a drunk), he would go ease his suffering. Without this prodding, Sawyer would probably have never gone back to shoot Duckett.

[LostInNewfieland]

all great ideas but what if the real answer as to what Desmond has the ability for and what happened when he turned the key is something totally different, which I think it is. I remember quite a while back TPTB said that everything on the show is realistic and not far fetched, things happen for a reason, something to that effect. So I really hope that answers we get are realistic and not some "looking into the future" or "time travel" mumbo jumbo.....

[sawyerhasbestlines]

CS,

Nice job on breaking down the linear chain of events connected to Jack's choice of saving Sara.

So what if that's one butterfly effect, and it's collided into 3 others. (i.e the numbers, starting with 4). And it's their collision that "unlocks" the course of events, or opens them to this place.

I need to look at the visual map of character connections and see if there's a pattern.

[Fourtoes]

I'm not so sure that Christian is a butterfly. He's more of a dragon.

A butterfly can create effects a long ways away with its wings.
A dragon flaps its wings for the express purpose of creating those effects.
Anyone else think he's connected to a lot more than is apparent from the surface?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Anyone else think he's connected to a lot more than is apparent from the surface?

I do. But I can't prove it. My instinct is he's actually one of the key players to the whole she-bang - butterfly effect in motion. This is why I've been so adament on trying give Christian "character" status with a forum.

CS, is suggesting that Jack's decision to operate on Sara and not Rutherford began the sequence of events, i.e "butterfly effect." But maybe it goes back even farther - maybe something having to do with Christian.

[Commedia Del'Lost]

Can anyone remember - did Christian try to stop Jack from operating on Sarah?

I have no memory on this one way or the other.

[clayseason1]

Can anyone remember - did Christian try to stop Jack from operating on Sarah?

I have no memory on this one way or the other.
No, Christian never tried to stop Jack from operating on Sarah. He did however, gently reprimand or try to guide Jack in his bedside manner. He suggested offering the patient some hope.

eta 12/30/06: I just started the season 1 walkthroughs and came across a little butterfly effect. In the pilot part 1 - Jack's flashback - Jack is on the plane and just finished a drink (he's sitting next to the window). He places the empty bottle into his empty glass on the middle seat's tray. He raises the tray, gets up and moves over to the aisle seat lowering the tray. But he doesn't sit down. He's about to step into the aisle when Charlie comes barrelling past (which forces him to stand in front of the aisle seat). Then Cindy and the other flight attendants follow - during that time Jack sits down. Then the turbulence begins and he buckles in.

Jack had not intended to change seats. He was either stretching his legs, getting something from the overhead or heading back to the tail section to use the restroom. If it hadn't been for Charlie and the flight attendants, Jack would have been sucked out of the plane like the other unbelted passengers or been with the tail section when it crashed. ....just a little rock being moved....

[clayseason1]

I love sci-fi and I think LOST took a giant step into the sci-fi realm with Desmond's episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes". I have come to the conclusion that Desmond really did get to live that day over. However, Desmond did some things he didn't do before and he didn't do some things that he did do before. There are bound to be long term "butterfly effects" for those different actions and inactions.

Based on the episode, I've come up with a rough idea of what he did before.
First let me point out this statement he made while accosting Charlie:
"No this ... I remember this. This all happened before. Today... th ... th ... this happened today. This ... I remember that he said I wasn't worthy ... and then I ... and then I ... and then I came down and I ... and I took off my tie and I ... and then I lost my tie and Penny said where was it and then it started to rain and..."
Note that he says, "..and I took off my tie and I....and then I lost my tie and Penny said where was it and then it started to rain and..." (at this point it starts to rain).
I think the original sequence of events went something like this:

Desmond falls from the ladder
Goes to the interview with Widmore and receives a similar insulting rejection
Exits the building, tearing off his tie and throws it down
Calms down and walks away
Runs into Penny (who may have been waiting a block or two away)
Penny asks where is the tie and it begins to rain
They go back to the flat, change clothes and go for "lobsters on the pier"
Photo taken - they go back to the flat for the night
Next day Desmond shops for the ring and doesn't buy it
Joins the military
Unknown time later Goes to the pub and witnesses the cricket bat to the bartender head

The second time around (or unknown number of times?)

Desmond exits the building discards his tie and accosts Charlie.
Desmond seeks out his physicist friend and tells him everything
The next day, he does buy the ring and runs into Ms Hawking
Passes by the military (maybe went back later - unknown) and meets Penny
Photo taken, breaks up with Penny
Unknown time later - Goes to the pub and gets hit with the cricket bat

Now we get into some speculation. What could be the butterfly effects for these changes. Well, certainly Penny could have had a discussion with Desmond's best mate - Donovan (the physicist) - after their break-up. Perhaps the physicist told Penny everything Desmond told him. After Desmond gets LOST on the race around the world and fulfills what he told Donovan in the past - maybe Penny now knows how to find him (electromagnetic signature) - maybe the physicist is working with her to do so.

Perhaps Desmond's own actions in the redo have caused Charlie's fate to change as well. Maybe that's what is causing Charlie's path (as predicted by Desmond) to death.

We've all joked about the sudden and jarring appearance of Nikki and Paulo as 815 survivors - like they've been there the whole time. What if their inclusion is a long term butterfly effect of Desmond's redo?

It's going to be really interesting to see if there are other differences. We know that Emma (the little tail section girl) asked after Ana Lucia. Judging from Jack's reaction, nothing changed there. I wonder if Libby is still dead. Maybe she didn't make the flight. I wonder what else has changed.

eta: Anything that happened after Desmond's redo is up for grabs and can be changed. I think Boone is still dead - He appeared to Locke in his "sweat-lodge" havid and alluded to being the "sacrifice the island demanded" - so that still happened.
This is going to be great!

[jaystao]

Once again I must say - mind bogling - but a picture is slowly forming.

Reminds me of the mug that Sawyer smashes and is 'reformed'.

Everything changes! But I don't think Desmond was sent back in time - I think the 'memory' of the future was sent back in time. And similar to the movie 'butterfly' affect it has changed everything. For better or worse - coarse correcting can keep the general 'history' in tact but slight changes do occur (if you've ever read Terry Pratchets Theif of Time this might be understood clearer). And these slights might tip the balance in favour of whom ever seeks to gain from them.

Definately something to chew on....

[MMDG]

DId anyone ever play video games? Legacy of Kain?

"History abhors a paradox."

Reminds me of that.

[clayseason1]

Once again I must say - mind boggling - but a picture is slowly forming
Remember at the end of season 2 - after Desmond turned the key - Charlie arrives back at the campsite and when asked where Locke, Eko and Desmond were, responded something like "What? They're not back yet?" . We all commented on how strange Charlie was acting. Well what if things changed for him?

He did have a euphoric look on his face. I wonder if he didn't throw those Virgin Mary statues away as we saw in "Three Minutes".

It was equally strange and commented upon when Claire kissed him that night and their relationship took a sudden turn back to them as a couple.

Something changed and I bet it was a "butterfly effect" from Desmond's redo.

[island_maverick]

Something changed and I bet it was a "butterfly effect" from Desmond's redo.Great post earlier, CS1, and I'm buying the idea that there could be some kind of redo on the go.

I'm getting caught up with the course correcting thing, though. If we've got a Des redo w/ butterfly effects, what are the intangibles, namely those events that will still come through regardless despite the 'noise'?

Perhaps if we could pin those down it might help us understand some of the wider mystery.

[jaystao]

He did have a euphoric look on his face. I wonder if he didn't throw those Virgin Mary statues away as we saw in "Three Minutes".

It was equally strange and commented upon when Claire kissed him that night and their relationship took a sudden turn back to them as a couple.

Brilliant!

[jmb3rg3r]

The butterly effect would be best illustrated here by the ring. The ring was supposed to be in the shop -- perhaps to be bought by someone else. Instead it ended up in the river, where its ripples spread. By any rights, we ought to see a propagating and escalating effect of change from that one small "flapping of a butterly's wings."

Not buying the Charlie premise. I still cling to the "Dark Charlie" theory. ;)

[deumilcat]

here s what I posted on 20th feb , very in line with you CS1
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30892

I paste it here for the additionnal POV I had


a Deceptive Chaos :Heuristic rebuild of Time
After "flashes before your eyes" I m glad to say that all naysayers to manipulation theories along the lines of "naaaa that d be too circonvoluted" will have to admit that the Lost plot IS circonvoluted

But fear not my friends. This Desmond episode actually clears things up a LOT.
When Desmond turned the key, what happenned to him?
It could have been just a dream based on his memories, his regrets on how he missed his chance to marry Penelope, and so on.
Yet it can not be, because:
1- Desmond pre-knew about Locke s speech, Charlie struck by thunder or drown in the sea.
2- When Desmond turned the failsafe key, the Hatch exploded (the blastdoor landing on the beach)
and imploded: Desmond couldnt have survived this.

Here s what I think: The Powerplayers, whoever they are (Dharma, Widmore Corps, PaikIndustries, all of the above?),
have the ability to influence events of the past. They send agents at certain points in time and refine certain turn of events in order to correct the future. Isaac asimov wrote a book titled The end of Eternity that described such an enterprise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Eternity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Eternity)


Problem with that is: why does Desmond brought back in the past has a recollection of future events (he knows the island, he recognizes Charlie,..)
my best guess is that the Agents pick the subject right before the course of events fail (hatch implosion ->Desmond death)
and bring him back physically to a point in time that we could nick as "last known good configuration" and swap him with his previous self which is supposed to be dead.
indeed, at each entry & exit point in time, the subject is knocked out and could be dead
(hit by a baseball batte in the pub, fall while he paints the roof, imploded in the hatch)

Desmond certainly has a key role in the master plan and we have witnessed at least two of its course corrections:
-Desmond unexpectedly dies when the hatch implodes, his story resumes from He & Pen about to move in together.
-During this "reboot", since he has lived those events already, he s about to not chicken out with the wedding ring thing.
The jeweller, who is probably an Agent, makes sure with her fate blablings that he does chicken out, so that he follows the right course of events ->so that he ends up on the island (army,jail,cruise,wreck,hatch)

Desmond knows the short range future (Charlie Locke Claire) because he has experienced it already and got brought back to square one more than once, each time that his course wasnt right (ie he died).


Whatever is the purpose of the Powerplayers, I think they have done the same with each and every passenger of the 815 crash:

Many here responded to my conspiracy theories that it could have failed hundred times. True, but No longer:
It was hard to admit for many forumers here that the character flashbacks events that led them to take the same flight
and have so many things in common were the result of a plan that was crafted to perfection.
What we have witnessed so far as a unbelievably flawless long winded masterplan (quite hard indeed to achieve in one shot, whatever big power have the players)
is in fact a course of event that is a final product; it has been refined over and over again, just like Bill Murray's final GroundHog Day after thousands of retries.





Remember what D.H.A.R.M.A means? Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications
A heuristic process is basically a try & fail procedure that gets you to the flawless result after refining the method/algorythm/formula from experienced failures. An other fiction (The Matrix) refers to it when the Architect explains to Neo that he is the 6th iteration of the systemic error in their system and that each time they learn how to prevent it the next time.






i think for instance that this is how they were able to put Christian in the way of Sawyer in this bar when he first chickenned out killing the shrimp guy, so that he does it, because the plan needs it.
we can also notice that many characters (Jack was the first in ep1) had this kind of post hatch blow Desmond s wake up like they dont know where they are.


What about Charlie?
I think that Charlie has always been in Desmond' s London past. He s likely to have earn a few quids playing guitar in the streets before making it big with DriveShaft
Only, Desmond in his first life never noticed him & talked to him before in the streets because of course the first time he lived his london life, he had never met Charlie on the island.
And finally, bear with me because that s deep :D
I believe that the Powerplayers brought Charlie on the flight 815 BECAUSE in this 2nd london course of events
(which is likely to be the one our present is based on, therefore the definite one) they noticed that Desmond talked to Charlie about the island
So they manipulated Charlie to be on the 815 & therefore on the island too, in case he d disturb the course of time with those unexpected infos he got from Desmond during this street scene! It s a time loop, but it has to be because Desmond had to be rebooted, this "take" was the good one so they have to keep it although there s this unexpected contact with Charlie, so they have to cope with Charlie excess of info and that s why he ll end up on the island, to insulate him.
(Charlie probly became dangerous when he made it big with "You all everybody" so hewas manipulated by the way of a Concert & LP record proposal that compelled him to go in Australia to fetch his brother so that he takes the 815 when flying back- which company does owe the music record company? Paik or Widmore? - :D )

By the way, has someone noticed that Charlie no longer play guitar ever since season3 started?




From this POV, it s no longer hard to believe that our Losties have been subject to a complex manipulation
and it s no longer hard to believe they have so much in common (crossroads & people)
It s not that they are now together and that, as a matter of fact they have shared past moments
They are together , castaway on this island BECAUSE they had shared moments!

Moderator note: TLE INFO AND SPECULATION REQUIRES TAGGING! You know this. -TPTP
__________________
__________________________________________________ __________________________________
Deceptive chaos:
The Others are the guardians of the Antechrist
(One Eyed Jack) jailed on the Island with the help of Smokie
& Satan s slaves such as Paik & Widmore have arranged the crash & instrumented the Losties to break Him free

(Explain most of the show from facts only)
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=21721 (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21721)

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/070208/lost_l.jpg

[LostInWilderness]

I was expecting to see the ring show up on the island.

Even if Desmond relived the time, I think it only happened metaphorically. I don't think trying to hold TPTB to the paradoxes of time travel will pan out. I don't think TPTB are interested in physics, just literature.

[Fourtoes]

CS,
Great line of thought here and thanks for bumping this old thread, which is a great one and more significant than ever. I had been resisting the idea that Desmond really went back in time, but TPTB have sealed the deal with podcast comments, so I think we have to accept that it happened. As I've said previously on other threads, since coming around to this point of view, we definitely should be watching Charlie.

The irony may be that Desmond already has saved Charlie (not the song in this scene). By having that conversation with him in London. Maybe Charlie decided not to do drugs thanks to the negative impression he got of this lunatic who he assumed was doing drugs? Which is why he and Claire seem to be getting along better since the implosion.

I think it would be a nice piece of storytelling if Desmond, despite having been informed that it was futile, tries to save Charlie once again, but discovers in the process that Charlie was not really in danger because his "flash" comes true without Charlie dying. He just misinterpreted it. Perhaps it ends up actually being Charlie who saves Desmond. So the cycle of the flashes is broken and they cease. Following this incident, Charlie gives Desmond a prize possession, a ring he fished out of the Thymes many years earlier, the same day that a chance encounter with a mad Scot helped him decide to stay clean even as his brother was spiraling down into heroin addiction.

Regardless, it's very clear that the "course correction" idea is at odds with the "butterfly" idea. While we usually think about this being a philosophical tension between an ordered universe and a chaotic universe, in fact we find in this story that it's between a universe of mechanistic fatalism and one where human free-will can be a saving grace. It's the chaos we create that can prevent us from being controlled.

One quibble with the timeline you established, CS. In the pub where Desmond is hit with the bat, he's very clearly miserable over having just broken with Penny. For this reason, my guess is that the entire flashback takes about 24 hours.

[jmb3rg3r]

Even if Desmond relived the time, I think it only happened metaphorically. I don't think trying to hold TPTB to the paradoxes of time travel will pan out. I don't think TPTB are interested in physics, just literature.

Not physics, but the laws of consequences. It's difficult to think the ripple effect shot wasn't intentional.

[LostInWilderness]

Agreed. I think we'll see some consequences, but no do to physics. Like I said, I expected to see the ring. That's back to the battle between fate and free will.

[jaystao]

FOUR people in the hatch when it went up. Four people who may have garnered some measure of power from such.

Desmond at its center - became a man who can see the future and change in subtle ways the present. Indeed he may even be able to change the past (though I persume history catches up with him he still has 'memories' of the expeirence of many possible worlds). The island says "thout shell not change the past', but Desmond is helping himself. Since he was at the center of the 'nexus' I imagine his powers far outstrip our others (apart from Locke who was already enhanced).

Locke - could his unique abilities have stemmed partly from his exposure to the hatch explosion? In away he may also be helping himself - though his abilities seem to be more linear (he knows the present).

Eko - he to seemed to display super natural abilities to an extent. He underwent visions, though it might be said that his 'power' was more of a physical and spiritual nature. He seemed to know himself (a spiritual awareness) and see the 'true' nature of those around him. It's a pitty he had to leave the party early.

Charlie - remains to be seen - but don't underestimate this underdog (I'll say it once I'll say it again 'DonttrustCharlie!). His ability could be one of subtle munipulations we have as yet merely glimpsed (beware his shadow for in it is a desire for empowerment and raw gratification). Desmonds brush with him in the past also - as Clayseason has stated - seems to have 'changed' things some how.

Remember -
The present is always 'the now'. No matter the past. Or in that the future. The now is always what IS. And the old maxim is true - whatever is, is.

Our island, in being a jelous GOD, may not appreciate new upstarts in this garden paradise. Look what happened mostly to those soul pirates DHARMA - Bear fodder and Smokey Jam the lot of them. Our losties have tasted forbidden fruits and taken the THUNDER and fire from our ISLAND lords (left on the battle field by others). I imagine judgement is surely upon them soon (Eko's recently and it seems Charlie is up next)....

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I've been busy working the last few days, but what a great post, CS. And also everyone's comments. Can't wait to see some more butterfly connections and predictions. I'm too braindead at the moment to add anything useful here.

But was joking in another thread about the a hobbit ending up with the ring. If Charlie goes for a swim and comes back with it, I'm going to have to eat my butterflies. :D

Also wondering if in one version, Penelope ends up with the ring.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

couldn't resist... had to bump.

I don't think the different time lines are separate rays, so to speak. It's the same core thing repeating over and over. It's the butterfly effect. The variations are slightly different, like how Charlie almost died a few times. But in the end, he dies. Desmond discovered this, Charlie was meant to die. That's why he said it on the plane to Jack.

Kate is in handcuffs with the marshall. The marshall will die. Kate will always escape. Doesn't matter if she is escaping him at LAX or on the island.

Bernard and Rose will end their lives happy with a sense of togetherness and acceptance of the end of life, whether its from an H bomb or from cancer.

Jack will be involved in keeping Charlie from dying when he's supposed to whether its after he's dead from hanging in a tree, or dead from a heroin overdose on a plane. It's part of the repetition.

I'm speculating Aaron story will end the same whether its through Kate's intervention of taking him off the island and bringing him to LA, or whether its Claire giving him up for adoption in LA. In both cases though, Kate will be a key component.

This is why the Charlie death is important. The point is he will die. Doesn't matter how, the end is he will.