+ Castaways disconnect (aka Why aren't they doing XYZ?)

[Chance Gardener]

Putting this here as it is not so much a theory (though a little in part it is) as an observation.

Since the beginning of the show, I've noticed the apparent disconnect between what is occurring on the island and how the survivors react to those occurrences. The first glaring example of this is the ill-fated redshirt Joanna. Only Boone and Jack went out after her; of the rest, only Charlie seemed interested in what was going on. Even after Boone was dragged back (the first Boone beating, albeit mostly psychosocial?), no one else went to help Jack.

Other instances have been noted and discussed by several; exploring the island, setting up perimeters/defense/lookouts, investigating Danielle, the cable, the Black Rock, Brendan, Claire, the front half of the plane, Locke and Boone and the hatch, the stobor, and so on. The most recent example was the last episode at the very beginning. Michael is looking for Walt, yelling for him in fact when Charlie comes up to him.
Michael: "Have you seen my son?"
Charlie: "Have you seen Claire's bags?"
Michael: "Have you seen my son?"
Charlie: "Have you seen Claire's bags?"
Now, in most social situations, with a good possibility of danger present, a child being looked for is more important than luggage. If this were an isolated incident, you would be right in saying its just Charlie being an insensitive junkie ex-rock god, but I believe this is a pattern.

Something, either within the makeup of each and every survivor, or in my opinion something to do with the island itself, is causing everyone to behave in this manner. Its as if they lose interest in their surroundings and it takes an immediate threat or a tie-in to their own personal past to get them even remotely involved.

I don't think this is an unintended by-product of having the writing chores broken up amongst 3 people - I think this IS part of the plot. This behavior we are seeing is intentional.

Well, that's all I have put together for now - putting this out there mostly to get holes punched into it or have better ideas grafted onto it.

Oh - for those frustrated of late with the episodes, sorry 'bout that, but I think the issues you are having with the storylines are tied into this behavior and the past few eps have been a setup for the reveal. Just a thought.

[bzyhnds]

Good observation. I thought that was pretty callous of Charlie too.... everyone seems self-absorbed... dazed. They shouldn't be in shock anymore... wonder what is up?

[morbius47]

chance - i've had the same thought. I've even posted something like it in another thread... the characters are not acting consistently with who we are shown they are in flashbacks and in occassional moments of clarity. This seems to be bad writing, but, could be an affect of the island or something on it. Maybe it has to do with "the sickness". Or maybe we are just really wanting to believe in jj and company. I hope you are right.

[elfdream]

I have posted elsewhere that I have thought there was something just 'not quite right' about the survivors. I couldn't put my finger on it but something just wasn't ringing true about it all.

No..not that they are all dead or have been taken over by aliens or anything like that..they just seem.. not normal in some way. They don't react to things the way people in the real world would have reacted or as they apparently would have were they in back in civilization. Reminds me of those beautiful people who lived above ground in "TheTime Machine'. Forgot what they were called. They lived in a paradise but they just...existed.

Maybe its that so called 'infection' taking hold.

Concerning the scene with Walt and Charlie..for some reason I assumed that Walt was always wandering off and Michael looking for him was a constant thing. It was like a crying wolf kind of thing...I didn't get that it was any big emergency.

[Wynter Zera]

Wow, this needs to move to the Theory Thread.

We know something magnetic is going on. Could it be interfering with electric impulses in the brain???? Is the sickness prolonged exposure to this?


Quick, where are doctors and scientists?

[azteclady]

Chance, I've done my best to dismiss you as just another pretty face but... *sigh* it's useless, wasted effort, I see.

Anyway...

For the first few episodes I explained away much of the artificiality of our survivors' reactions as simple shock. After all, very few people would bounce back to normalcy after a plane crash, no matter how superficial the physical injuries they sustained.

This explanation wears thin after a while, obviously. I like yours much better.

I really really hope you are right!



Beto
Read the Welcome (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm31) forum first, PM me second

[Hodgepodge]

If this isn't the case, I hope TPTB make a visit to Lost-TV, and make it so. It wouldn't definitely explain a lot.

[cinderellabop]

Hmmm... that makes a lot of sense, Chance. I hope they are doing something along these lines. Nice job.

[G-Man]

this is interesting, and thank you chance for helping me put my finger on what has been irking me about most of the characters.

[Boar Hunter 1]

Not sure if this is the right spot for this or not, but I can't understand why they haven't gotten a posse of people together to go hunt down the Frenchwoman after Sayid came back and told them about her. I think it was mentioned once that they have to go find her, but never acted upon. She's got guns, maps, some kind of strange cable to the ocean, some kind of primitive power supply, knowledge of the island, etc. etc. I just don't see why they wouldn't want to immediately go and find her to minimally learn more about their situation on the island.

[Chance Gardener]

This is just the kind of example I mean BH. Of course, how much info has Sayid given out regarding Dani? Yet another symptom - hoarding/not sharing info about things going on.

Again, unless the threat is immediate - Dani walking into camp with her rifle - the survivors forget about it.

The behavior being shown is almost exactly like herd behavior. Watch a herd of animals. Fairly passive, individuals may be focused on something in their immediate area/circumstance for a time, but then go back to just grazing, only reacting when something is hunting them and once the threat is gone, or a member of the herd is taken, they go back to grazing yet again.

Come to think of it, the rabbits in Watership Down exhibit the same type of behavior, especially the ones in the "kept" warren.

Other than herd mentality, not sure what else to call the survivors behavior. Not quite narcissistic, not quite sociopathic, definitely self-centered, but not normal would I consider any of them at this point.

[Ferret Dragon]

I'm gonna get overly general... I'm tired and can't think straight.

If you look carefully at all of the main characters, they're all outcasts and loners, for one reason or another. Many of them are self-centered and have reasons not to trust others. Their backstories show them not to be team players (for the most part).

Jack~ "outcast" because of tattle-taling on his father, etc. But, he seems the most interested in what happens with other. Contrast this with:

Kate~ a criminal who has been on the run for sometime and has grown accustomed to lying and looking out for herself. She seems shy to draw near anyone.

Charlie~ a recovering druggy ex-rock god... Of everyone, he seems more interested in others, but has a pile of emotional baggage; makes it harder to look at others that way.

Sawyer~ been accused of and labelled as a thief, etc.etc. from the beginning. Former con-man...

Sayid~ a former intelligence office with a history of hiding information going back to Nadia. We seem to find out what he is revealing about Danielle incidentally or when he is confronted about her.

Hurley~ He seems to have the best heart in the bunch and most interested in other... I don't remember him being around when there was the drowning incident.

Anyways... I could continue... But, as I said, we have a group of highly indivualistic people, with reasons and histories of not working *with* others, but using or hiding from others, who are stuck in a situation where they should be doing teamwork... Something I am sure which will not come naturally.

As for the red-shirts... meh... in real life, somebody's drowning at a beach, how many folks will take the initiative to try and save them? Especially if someone is already trying...? We get to see a lot of "someone else will take care of it" in real life... Why would it be that different on the island?

[jaklynrose]

I thought it was kind of strange that after they found Charlie nobody was actively searching for Claire anymore. Some assumed that was what Locke and Boone were doing but it seemed that they would have organized a party to actively search for her and explore the island for days, especially now that they knew there were others. Its like they would mention Claire, be sad, and go back to what they were doing. Weird.

Also Kate said to Sawyer once, "As one outcast to another, I'd put out a little more effort" I thought it was strange at the time because she's not really an outcast on the island. I think she knew Sawyer before the crash. One time when she jumped him, he told her he'd made that birthday wish 4 years ago.

[JacksGirlfriend]

First of all - Aztec, where have you been? Didn't you know Chance is one of the brightest people on this board? Yes, he is a pretty face and oozes with charm, but there's also a brain inside.

Wynter: You're right. This should move to theories so I'm moving it.

And Chance - this is something I've been thinking for a very long time, but for some reason never thought to put into an actual thought. Maybe I'm a victim of the same plot device.

JG (getting lazy... another sympton)

[Maybishudbahippy]

I personally think the reason they weren't actively searching for Claire and why that wasn't the center of the next few episodes was because they were adding plotlines to the SOUP of mysteries (like my metaphor?) but their behavior does seem just a tad narcissistic to be real...

[RWPR]

Perhapt it fits in with 'The Eye' theorie. Flashbacks are seen from their own perspective, just as on the island. Perhaps it is about some individuels or something.

[Wynter Zera]

"Could one become a accidental zombie?"

What do you think - can Tesla (NON-hertzian) waves be used to influence to peoples thoughts? If your answer is yes, go to next paragraph immediately, else - please "jump" to "Tesla waves" article.
Undoubtedly, perchancely or purposely, mind ascendancy could be a way to very efficient mind control!!!
Briefly, we can say that official science offers us a fact that EM spectrum ends with a long radio waves band, with the largest wavelength of about 104 meters ! ... What is beyond that range ? ...
We know about "brain" EM waves e.g, but their maximal frequency is about 10 Hz, the wavelength of so called "alfa waves" is about 3*107 m, but - that is quite far from the end of the long radio waves range ... Classical science does not have a correct answer as to what is in this EM spectrum "hole" !
However, EDQ model with some kind of (multidimensional) "Periodic Table of the Elements", offers us a reasonable ansver. If you still suspect that Tesla (NON-hertzian) waves exist, we suggest that you read "Nikola Tesla Patenti II", Zavod za udzbenike i nastavna sredstva, Beograd, 1996.g. page 413. In Nikola Tesla's own words:

"... It is too noted that the phenomenon here involved in the transmission of electrical energy is one of TRUE CONDUCTION AND IS NOT TO BE CONFOUNDED WITH THE PHENOMENA OF ELECTRICAL RADIATION which have heretofore been observed and which from the very nature and mode of propagation would render practically IMPOSSIBLE THE TRANSSMISION OF ANY APPRECIABLE AMOUNT OF ENERGY TO SUCH DISTANCES as are of practical importance. ..."

Obviously, Nikola Tesla accentuates that his "energy-transfer-waves" ARE NOT HERTZIAN !!!
Unfortunately, a lot of scientists disregard this fact ...
As one can see from the EM spectrum picture, according to the EDQ model, Tesla waves are located in the wavelength area between of 103 to 108 meters. Tesla's certifiably great accomplishments, as well as accuracy of our Model, can be illustrated with Tesla's Canadian Patent 142,352 - "Art of Transmitting Electrical Energy through the natural Mediums", citing:

"... It is necessary to employ oscillations in which the rate of radiation of energy into space IN THE FORM OF HERTZIAN OR ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES IS VERY SMALL. To give an idea, I would say that the frequency should be smaller than twenty thousand per second, though shorter waves might be practicable. The lowest frequency would appear to be six per second, in which case there will be but one node, at or near the ground-plate, and paradoxical as it may seem, the EFFECT WILL INCREASE WITH THE DISTANCE and will be greatest in a region ..."

Frequency of 20 KHz corresponds to a wavelength of 1.5*104 m, and 6 Hz can be expressed as 5*107 m. which proves that Nikola Tesla's experimental wavelength range recommendation is almost identical to the EDQ model predictions!
It is obvious that "Tesla-waves-band" OVERLAP "Mind-waves-area" in the range of few Hz. Consequently low frequency EM waves could interfere with brain waves and affect to peoples thoughts...
Do you know What is HAARP? It is the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Project being developed by the U.S. Air Force and Navy in Alaska.It focuses beams of energy on the ionosphere, about hundred kilometers above earth, using specific network of 180 antennas, with total power of almost four million (3,500,000 W) watts !!!
Why?
Scientists say - to provide our government with a communications system to reach submarines and to provide earth-penetrating tomography - searching for underground tunnels and missile sites by special electronic frequencies, etc. Maybe - but, I think that this is not theirs finite goast. Moreower, seems that Project staff members are playing with "things" and energies they don't fully understand. Anyway, we should be worry about the level of intensity of the microwaves beaming to the stratosphere as well as deep into the earth. Will those experiments make "additive" holes in the ionosphere;...; whether our current heavy storms could be the result of HAARP experiments...
As a curiosity one can note that the electromagnetic component of ultralow-frequency "brain-waves", measured by electroencephalogram (EEG), are classified in five types (alfa, beta, gama, ..., waves) of frequencies. For instance "alfa" waves have frequency of 8 - 13 Hz, while "theta" waves (e.g.) have freqncy lower than 0.3 Hz ... As we know, the Schumann Resonances are electromagnetic, quasi standing, wave that exist in ionosphere cavity. They seem to be related to electrical activity in the atmosphere, particulary during times of intense lightning activity. They occur at several frequencies between 6 and 50 Hz, specifically 7.8, 14, 20, 26, 33, 39 i 45 Hz...
Certainly a tight tie between earth's own deep energies and the magnetism of the earth's ionosphere suggests a sinister manipulation of the earth's atmosphere. Likewise, there ia a tight tie between Schumann Resonances and "brain-waves" spectrum also!

from here (http://www.beotel.yu/~gmarjanovic/zombie.html)

And


Teslion as Tesla's waves quant carrier illustration

According to EDQ and EOU models' propositions, there is an analogy between (a number of) different radiation ranges and (a number of) basic stable corpuscles. Moreover, in considering Hypothesis 3, the speed of light is quite reachable for objects with a real remaining mass (m0) and a Photon (e.g. as a quant carrier of classical "Hertzian" EM waves), being a stable object of order 8 (H1/EDQ model), with m0 = 1.6*10- 38 kg, and an associated compton wavelength: lc=1.35*10-4 [m].
Just like a photon, Teslion is a corpuscular form of "matter state", expressed in our Unity as a stable object of order 9, with a quite real rest mass: m0 = 1.1*10- 49 kg. Wave form of the same object, named Tesla waves, have compton wavelength of lc=2*107 [m], i.e. frequency of 14.8 Hz. As we know, frequency of 11.47 Hz is already known as a Tesla's frequency. This fact was a basic reason for naming "stable-object-9" a TESLION.
For now, all details are exposed only in the "Serbian version", but will be accessible in the English very soon. Briefly, here we can introduce one very interesting detail.

Peak energy level of a K9-object, whose wave form of "space-time-matter" entity we called Tesla waves, is l = lc * (1-v2/vmax2)1/2 = 20.04*106*0.037 = 741480 m, which corresponds to frequency of 404.59 Hz. As we know, most of "zero point", "free energy", and all different kinds of "overunity" devices (Thomas Moray Radiant device, Floyd Sweet VTA,...,Michel Mace Solid state energy converter etc.) provide maximal output energy with current whose frequency is about 400 Hz! Amazingly, "Earth - radius - resonant - length" is Rp = 6.38*106 * 3.14 = 2.004*107 m, which is almost equal to Tesla-waves compton wavelength:lc=2*107 [m].
One of fairly "Earth-resonant" devices is Milan Mancich' "HF Transformer", which he presented in J.L. Naudin's "JLN Labs". His transformer has 1000 turns on diam = 50 mm, meaning that the used wire length of about 345 m. This is very close to l/2 (as all commercial Hertzian EM wave - antennas have) of Tesla-waves compton wavelength "projected here" ("inside our unity" - precise information is presented in the EOU model), which is equal to: l*(1/2)*RIV/RIII = 741480/2/1056 = 351.08 m! It is obvious that Milan's transformer is resonant to Earth as well as to Tesla waves.
Our theoretical investigations demonstrated that Tesla waves (until now, better known as Tesla's Non-Hertzian waves) are presumably another name for the "Evanescent mode" (see: Superluminal signal velocity, G.Nimtz, Ann. Phys. (Leipzig) 7 (1998) 7-8, 618-624; "Evanescent modes are not necessarily Einstein causal", Eur.Phys.J.B 7,523-525(1999), and/or Mr. Tom Bearden's "Scalar waves"). Moreover, in our opinion, Tesla waves can be a basic "free" energy "transfer - carriers" in a sense of "outside - inside" energy transformations (according to EOU model, both are "parts" of the same multidimensional Reality)!!!
To illustrate that EDQ/EOU models' predictions are not random, we can apply the same Model "mechanism" on Mr. Greg Watson's PMOD device, for example. From the picture below, we can see that the "damped wave" period time is t = 9.4*10-8 sec, hence frequency is f = 10.63 MHz and the wavelength is l = 28.2 m. According to EDQ model, the associated compton wavelength is lc = 1.04 m. It sounds fascinating that the coil used in this experiment (L1) has 40 turns on the core with a diameter = 9 mm, which means that wire length is 1.13 m. Furthermore, signal period (with or without the magnet) has the same value T = 3.7*10-6 sec, or frequency f = 270 kHz. If we "project" this frequency "there", and then "look" at it from "here", according to EDQ/EOU models, we obtain: f = 270*103*1056*0.037 = 10.5 MHz. As we already noted, oscilloscope picture shows REAL signal frequency of f = 10.61 Mhz, which is very close to the model-expected value of 10.5 MHz.
In Mr. Milan Mancich' experiment, input frequency was 200 Khz and, according to EDQ/EOU model, "overunity" output signal frequency should be: f = 200*103:1056*0.037 = 7 Hz. As we can see on the scope picture given below, real "tapped-signal" frequency is about 28 Hz, which is a "doubled" Tesla wave (compton wavelength) frequency! An almost unbelievable fact is Mr. Mancich' announcement that his "Earth-Tesla wave" HF transformer with ferrite core is resonant at f = 5.1 KHz. If we use previous relation without "overunity" transformation, we obtain: f = 200*103:1056:0.037 = 5.118 KHz !!!

Without prompting for a conclusion, we can suggest the idea that Milan Mancich reached some kind of "Overunity" effects, because of a great similarity between his "HF transformer" construction parameters and "Earth dimensions", which are both resonant with the frequency matching the Tesla wave frequency range. In the case of Mr. Greg Watson's PMOD experiment this condition was not satisfied, as he works with classical Hertzian EM waves, and his PMOD is NOT "OverUnity" in itself (but is intended to show how one of the necessary elements of a solid state OverUnity power system can be built). Unlike him, Mr Mancich succeeded to "get" Tesla waves in his scope. In our opinion, these waves are "topsy turvy" Hertzian EM waves. Please compare pictures given below:

GW.PMOD efect M.Mancich Teslian waves

What science say about M.Mancich "resonant rise" waves?

Official science does not comment on "unconventional,..., alternative" physics devices, such as most "overunity" are. One of very rare yet certainly competent opinions is Mr. Jean Lous Naudin's depiction of Mr M.Mancich Photo:
"Yes, this is a pure NON LINEAR oscillation of bucking fields. This is produced by the high speed magnetic flux compression in the bifilar coil during the collapse of the inductance. In a bifilar coil, at the moment of the current begin to flow, the inductance of the first coil is max and drops very quickly to zero at the permanent regime. So, the coil energy is released very quickly WITHOUT a link to the source, this is a very interesting effect to explore, because this generates a NON RECIPROCAL EFFECT of the energy flow."
Similar is an explanation of non-linear oscillations, achieved in G.Watson's Pulse Magnetic Overunity Device, owing the effect to using ferrite H (magnetic field) to B (B = m (permeability) * H) phase (time) shift (according to Mr. G.Watson's explanation: "... It should be noted that the short current drive pulse DOES NOT (should not) result in any back EMf from the ferrite as the ferrite can't reach fast enough (the phase shift of the B field) ...".
Both interpretations allude to very fast and narrow pulses, which produce substantial associations to Mr. Nimtz's "Evanescent mode" signals, suggesting that our supposition about Evanescent mode signals and Tesla waves equivalence is probably correct.
So, we can say: "Ok, science indeed allows" for some kind of "Superluminal velocities", as well as for "overunity" effects, even in the case of classical EM waves; but, viewing the above photos,

...One can notice that the "right wave" seems just like a "TIME REVERSED" left wave ...

which means that our EDQ / EOU models' postulates (such as that Tesla waves are "topsy turvy" Hertzian EM waves) are quite OK! ...

Official science offers us a fact that EM spectrum ends with a long radio waves band, with the largest wavelength of about 104 meters ! ... What is beyond that range ? ...
We know about "brain" EM waves e.g, but their maximal frequency is about 10 Hz, the wavelength of so called "alfa waves" is about 3*107 m, but - that is quite far from the end of the long radio waves range ... Classical science does not have a correct answer as to what is in this EM spectrum "hole" !
However, EDQ model, with some kind of (multidimensional) "Periodic Table of the Elements", offers us a reasonable answer. If you still suspect that Tesla waves exist, we suggest that you read "Nikola Tesla Patenti II", Zavod za udzbenike i nastavna sredstva, Beograd,1996.g. page 413. In Nikola Tesla's own words:

"... It is too noted that the phenomenon here involved in the transmission of electrical energy is one of TRUE CONDUCTION AND IS NOT TO BE CONFOUNDED WITH THE PHENOMENA OF ELECTRICAL RADIATION which have heretofore been observed and which from the very nature and mode of propagation would render practically IMPOSSIBLE THE TRANSMISSION OF ANY APPRECIABLE AMOUNT OF ENERGY TO SUCH DISTANCES as are of practical importance. ..."

Obviously, Nikola Tesla accentuates that his "energy-transfer-waves" ARE NOT HERTZIAN !!!.
As one can see from the EM spectrum picture on the previous page, according to the EDQ model, Tesla waves are located in the wavelength area between of 103 to 108 meters. Tesla's certifiably great accomplishments, as well as accuracy of our Model, can be illustrated with Tesla's Canadian Patent 142,352 - "Art of Transmitting Electrical Energy through the natural Mediums", citing:

"... It is necessary to employ oscillations in which the rate of radiation of energy into space IN THE FORM OF HERTZIAN OR ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES IS VERY SMALL. To give an idea, I would say that the frequency should be smaller than twenty thousand per second, though shorter waves might be practicable. The lowest frequency would appear to be six per second, in which case there will be but one node, at or near the ground-plate, and paradoxical as it may seem, the EFFECT WILL INCREASE WITH THE DISTANCE and will be greatest in a region ..."

Frequency of 20 KHz corresponds to a wavelength of 1.5*104 m, and 6 Hz can be expressed as 5*107 m. which proves that Nikola Tesla's experimental wavelength range recommendation is almost identical to the EDQ model predictions!

This fact in itself should be a good reason for one to re-read this article ...

from here (http://www.beotel.yu/~gmarjanovic/gwmm.html)

[dagdaj]

"disconnect"

That's a good word to describe it.
There are a lot of things that don't add up. Sometimes I feel like it's kind of the way I dream.

I suppose it could just be horrible continuity, but this show is so well done in every other aspect, I can't see them falling short on continuity. They know we're gonna pick stuff apart...so they have to be doing this on purpose.

I've wondered about lots of things that fall into this category.

[drabauer]

Now Wynter, how are we supposed to digest all that?

Please summarize!

[Wynter Zera]

Sorry, but you'll have to get one of the scientist types to explain most of it. I only have a vauge understanding of what they're saying. Always feed your scientists. :b

[JacksGirlfriend]

Chance - When you pop in, read what Wynter posted and tell me what it said, okay?

JG

[LostInWilderness]

In another thread the comment was made that the dynamite company didn't explore the hole Locke was being dragged into, and that was given as evidence for the disconnect. I don't get this.

They were getting the dynamite to open the hatch and hide from the others who were supposedly going to kill them all. They didn't have to stop and explore the hole - they were trying to save all the castaways. There's no disconnect here.

[Chance Gardener]

They were looking for a place to hole up. They found a hole. They didn't even question it, consider it instead of their plan to use the hatch.

This is exactly the type of thing I am talking about. Why use dangerous explosives to open a possibly lethal chamber (either due to it being a one way dead end and therefore a trap or by releasing some agent that will kill them) when they've been presented with a hole that is apparently natural, thus less likely to be found/observed and that has had a "cleaning" if you will.

I submit they are so disconnected now from all things around them and can not see past their own initial motivations.

[LostInWilderness]

And has a man-dragging monster inside.

[magnet school]

And has a man-dragging monster inside.

:rollin

[Chance Gardener]

Well...

...not at the moment it doesn't.




(wussy)

[Zoriah Bastin]

Yeah let's all just go hide down the hole where the monster went. :rollin

[Chance Gardener]

Alright, there are definite drawbacks to going down the unknown monster pit, but considering it ran away instead of staying to defend "home" then I would conclude that perhaps it isn't "home" at all, but maybe a sanctuary.

But that is a whole other theory in the making.

The point is no one says "wait a minute - we've got this cranky dynamite which smokey doesn't like. Maybe we should check out this place as a possible hidey hole instead of wasting arztbane on an unknown man made locked hatch of dubious use. Maybe, we should investigate this hole here now, while smokey is gone."

Instead, they can't wait to get back to their plan after the near death interruption. They are so disconnected that they cannot seem to consider other options. For instance, this seems to be a stobor stomping ground. What better deterrent to the 'others' than chew toy seeking stobor?

So that is my reason for saying this is another example of disconnect in process.

[NeillT006]

They are so disconnected that they cannot seem to consider other options.

Chance:

You know, if you and I were on the island, and it was you who was dragged across the jungle floor into a big hole, afterward I think I would be asking you a few questions like: geez, why are there no teeth (talon, claw) marks on your legs? What did it feel like? Did you get a good look at it? What were you doing with my Victoria's Secrets catalog last night?

Neill

[jaystao]

Perhaps by making a new 'thread' on this topic restoring the older threads that have been saved on to that one? It could help revitalize certain aspects of it too. Kudos for other ancient primordial threads which have spawned entire civilizations. Those 'missing post' posts are just annoying and ruin the continuity. Maybe a side note on the newly spawned thread stating what number of posts it is continuing on from, since its nice to have that 'grand daddy' feeling.

[Chance Gardener]

Well the other possibility Jay is this is preparatory to the final two restoration installs by EZBoard, but it is kind of hard to assess that based on EZ's updates. They say without really informing what effects these final two steps will be.

I suppose we'll just need to wait and see until after next week if any missing data can be recovered. Hopefully this fiasco will keep them from storing data on the cheap from here on out and improve their backup procedures.

[Warthawg1]

I am still doubtful that EZ actually knows what a "backup" is supposed to be. I do not apologize to the EZ gods when I note that at my job; I can have a server, servicing 1000's of users, restored completely as if nothing ever happened in about an hour.

[Chance Gardener]

Yes, I'm still astounded that their backup system was not a physically separated system but was merely a duplicate copy on the same servers apparently.

Really a bad way to cheap out the job.

[Warthawg1]

Yes..apparently that was the case. I do that as well because the restore is faster if my on server backups are not damaged, but I also back things up on separate media.

[LostInWilderness]

Servers today come with instantaneous backups online. I.e. every hour, they back-up. Because they are intended to be convenient, they are accessible to the system, and therefore to hacks. My last servers contained 7 one hour backups and one 24 hour backup. These are useless against a hack, and in any sane business are only used for convenience. Then you have the second tier of defense, the redundant server. I keeps a weeks worth of backups at your fingertips. Of course it's also a hacker's fingertips, and therefore useless except for convenience. Any semi-respectable business covers all that with tape stored redundantly on-site and off.

ezboard is not even a semi-respectable business.

And this is a real disconnect, unlike the perceived one's Chance has been promoting here. ;)

[Chance Gardener]

Well, I find it crueler than cruel that with the last wave of restores a whole trove of old threads reappeared (thankfully) but apparently THIS particular thread is going to stay gutted.

Its criminal that with the over 9000 boards and lord knows how many members (tens of thousands minimum, if not hundreds of thousands) they can't do daily tape backups. To only do monthly tape backups is just astounding. Never mind a hack, what if they server farm was damaged or destroyed? To not have even weekly backups done automatically and then kept separate from the main server network shows a contempt for emergency planning that is criminal in the moral sense (I know it isn't in the legal sense).

Anyway, this used to be a good thread. I'm just sorry it got gutted.

[jaystao]

Disconnect is one of the major theories of the board. This is because it is one of the major themes of LOST. We need a place to discuss it Chance. I'd prefer if you made a new 'place' for the surviving posts to migrate too. I know it might be difficult to give up the 'old seat' because lets face it, like NeilT's Matrix thread and others it was a place one could return too out of the wilderness. If the posts can't be restored this might be an option, its just that the string of missing post pages makes it feel like a cemetery. Damn those EZ bastards! We should have guessed by their pseudonym, EZ to post easy to hack.

[Chance Gardener]

Jay, after the restore, I'll check with Doc about deleting the gutted posts from this thread. If that can't be done, then I'll set about recreating what is left of the shambles into a new thread.

[Froshaka]

Another disconnect, IMO, is their complete lack of interest in the cable running into the island from the water.

At this point they have no reason not to just cut it and see if there is a response. Its not helping them in any way so why not cut it...what could it hurt?

[LostInWilderness]

It could electrocute the cutter. It could cut the power to the transmitter. It could have any number of bad consequences. And right now they are still hiding from the "others" who are supposedly coming to kill them all.

[Chance Gardener]

Chance:

You know, if you and I were on the island, and it was you who was dragged across the jungle floor into a big hole, afterward I think I would be asking you a few questions like: geez, why are there no teeth (talon, claw) marks on your legs? What did it feel like? Did you get a good look at it? What were you doing with my Victoria's Secrets catalog last night?

Neill Like I'd let you anywhere near my VS catalog.

But yes, how did "smokie stobor" (or was it "treeripper stobor"?) manage to pull Locke over quite a bit of ground and yet not leave any marks on him or his clothing.

Further, why, if he wanted to go into the hole, did he try to fight being dragged into the hole until Jack got to him?

Why don't they show Kate bathing more often?

I think questions like these are part of the maddeningly frustrating reasons we are addicted to the show. Whether or not they are related to the actual plotlines being written and not just a writer's contrivance to 'cause drama' and then dropped once the drama has been achieved is another matter best relegated to other threads.

Only a couple of months wait left to go to get more info for this theory.

[joepa15425]

Why don't they show Kate bathing more often?

YEAH!!!!!

HEY! What's up with that?????

[Chance Gardener]

Just more evidence of a disconnect.

[merry slug]

Let's see - on the island it's only been 40 days, not the months that we've been following it. Like those who wonder why Hurley hasn't lost "more" weight, we gotta remember their time scale.

(Apologies if this has been hashed before -- it's hard to tell with the missing posts...)

[athywithak]

Chance, sweetie, I know the empty thread makes you sad, but I also know that - like most of us - you don't enjoy seeing folks repeat info that was been discussed in depth - with that in mind may I respectfully request that you begin to help us outline some of the basics that this thread explored? I would if I could.

Anyone else?

K

[clayseason1]

I thought I would just try responding to the last post and see if that would restore anything.
eta: nope, anything after this page is "disconnected" :\

"unbreakable" and "bermuda triangle" have been disconnected as well.

If anyone doesn't want to lose something, now's the time to save.

[drabauer]

Here goes nothing

(dives off the deep end . . blurrrrrp!)

[clayseason1]

I didn't get to read all of this thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned before, if it has, sorry.

We know there are eucalyptus trees on the island. The eucalyptus is a very invasive plant. It spreads everywhere. It has a lot of uses, one of which is:
"The ghost gum's leaves were used by Aborigines to catch fish. Soaking the leaves in water releases a mild tranquiliser which stuns fish temporarily"

Eucalyptus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus)

Maybe the leaves are in the survivors' water supply and they are all sedated. :eek

[thoughtform]

Nothing makes me wonder more than the fact that nobody seems to care anymore about the radio tower and finding where it is. Some of the other behavior I could reason away, but not that. Why not find it? All the time spent putting together a raft, twice, and no search for the tower. The only reason I could think of is that they know Danielle found it, and it didn't seem to help her. She is still on the island. Why not question her more? That makes no sense either.

Makes me think that these folks really don't want to know what's up. They are in denial or something. Oh, it does seem that they are all unlucky in relationships and seem destined to be alone. Are they cursed? Are they test subjects in some sociological experiment? Does it go deeper than that, possibly shared vibrations due to some strange astrological influence at the time of their births? Cosmic or mundane influences? Bureaucratic or fated?

[Chance Gardener]

That is a new idea thank you.
There was an excellent discussion here regarding Lithium and its side effects. The idea was similar to yours: lithium in the water was causing effects both subtle and gross depending on the metabolisms/genetics of all involved. It was tied to a separate thread that was discussing Lithium more in depth but alas the section here and the entire Lithium thread has of course vanished into the void.

Are these effects permanent or do they subside after you remove the eucalyptus from the environment?

[clayseason1]

Are these effects permanent or do they subside after you remove the eucalyptus from the environment?

I don't know.
eta: The fish that are "poisoned" in this manner are safe to eat. (That's all I've found so far.) So, that probably means that the eucalyptus doesn't stay in the system like mercury.

I like the eucalyptus idea better than lithium. The eucalyptus was introduced into the plot already whereas the lithium would be an unknown additional plot element. Too bad about the missing discussion.
I think TPTB like to put things in front of our faces in subtle ways and then tie them in later.

[WayOffCourse]

The "eucalyptus toxicity" theory is interesting in a couple of ways. I took a look at some of the pharmacological data, and there are a lot of holes in the research (including no indication of biological half life). But in addition to the effects on the central nervous system, there are often significant GI effects. Does anyone know what Sun (and, by extension Kate) poisoned Michael with?

[merry slug]

Thought a few of you would appreciate this -- I didn't put a llot of stock into this thread until:

I've been pestering my coworker for weeks to try LOST (even started watching Battlestar Galactica as quid pro quo).

After last night's episode (Michael & Walt's flashback), he had only one comment/question =

"So why are they all just sitting around the fire not doing anything?":rollin

I tried to explain that:
a) monster in the jungle
b) Others in the jungle waiting to pounce
c) not a whole lot of time has really passed
d) they still think they're going to be rescued

...the more I tried to justify them the less interested he became. *sigh* Maybe you all have a point...:p

[Chance Gardener]

an admittedly selfish bump.

[drabauer]

I thought you were just an ordinary, humble bump on a log, Chance?

[Chance Gardener]

I am indeed just that.

[jaystao]

I posted this in the basement but it deserves second outing....... "Yet self centredness is what drives these characters. Aspects of themselves which seem to thrive on island survival and its mysteries or on past sympathies. In terms of this theory I concentrated on the psycological aspects of what 'drives' these people, especially in terms of their primal limbic natures. These people have various obsessive compulsions which they revert to in times of trouble. Kate runs away, Jack wants to save others, Charlie wants to play his music, take drugs or protect Clair. It seems that there is a difference to those who use these obsessions for good use in figuring out the island's mysteries or simply use them for some practical purpose in a social sense or to their own ends. The Island enchances this by 'diverting' these obsessions. Mysteries are everywhere. Hurley wants to figure out the numbers, Lock has his hatch. Sayid wants to leave to find Nadia but once this becomes distant diverts that feeling toward Shanon. The people who truely let go of their pasts and devote their 'ego' to the Islands intrigue seem to have more going for them. Jack wanted to get of the island by practicle means but gave this up after realising his father maybe somehow on this island and there was no body to bury. His initial drive dissapated and he reverted to the survival of those still alive. Whereas Lock seems centred on encompasing the island to the extent of not hunting boar in order to open the hatch. The ritual of self seems to be a major part of the Islands disconnect. Counting numbers, gathering fire wood, looking after wife/child/person and obsessing over objects, people and things. Charlie was only interested in finding Clairs lugage, Micheal Walt. Every action/event has a direct driving force where the over view is forgotten until it requires ones direct attention. People don't want to think of the dark areas because they are places of real fear and anxiety. Almost like an instinctive defence mechanism. The mysteries go beyond the everyday ritual of their ego. Untill that is some part of their nature drives them there. True enough for all of us but the Island and the program itself seems to centre on diversion of drive, purpose and nature. Once people overcome this disconnect of past and present they can encompass the island as a whole and begin to move on. This internal ritual of ego and self will still continue but will instead ultimately be diverted to either a real social unity or a progressive drive deeper into the heart of darkness or in that, madness. Which is the real nature of this island and in that disconnect"...... something which agitates their primal limbic behaviour only by concentrating on other things can they divert this agitation, this feeling of being LOST. Maybe its akin to Locks dog whistle calling them deeper into this heart of darkness?

[LostInWilderness]

So you're saying they're warped and the situation is warped? We don't need pixie dust to explain the lostaways behavior.

I don't mean to make light of you post, but what is occuring on the island is outside every human's belief system. The lostaway's internal version of reality has been ripped apart. Humans behave far weirder or go insane in far less trying circumstances all the time. If anything, the lostaways are doing way better than real humans could expect to do.

[yung23]

there was recently something I read, & I dont think it was here..

but the article made mention of our lost-tv "disconnect" term.

[jaystao]

The lostaway's internal version of reality has been ripped apart. Humans behave far weirder or go insane in far less trying circumstances all the time. If anything, the lostaways are doing way better than real humans could expect to do.

And they were already warped in the first place. It just seems to me that those who were in some way already suffering from some kind of disconnect (mental stress/agitation) seem to have prospered or flourished more because of the LOST scenario. Maybe because their use to it. O.k. Already discussed in terms of mental hysteria and your right, it doesn't take much to see this as something that is happening as a gerneral behaviour relating to the circumstance of this island. Do we still need some kind of artificial element that is at the root of this disconnect theory? I still think that some added element of 'disconnect' is out there. Something that is everywhere for the castaways that they can't see, but are vaguely aware off. It makes them uneasy and unable to proceed without some caution. Or unwilling to face the dark places at all. One thought I had was that this element is the same thing which is causing the numbers to appear everywhere and mayhap the whispers (so it spans outside the island). Patterns which are right in front of their faces, which are slowly closing in on them.

[LostInWilderness]

Chance seems to be disconnected from the board. I put a lot more credance in that than the lostaways disconnect, but it would be nice to discuss it.

[Chance Gardener]

Not disconnected. Just not interested in being chided for my inevitable responses should I attempt to voyage in the sea of repeating theories and the subsequent sense of moral outrage that would ensue should anyone (namely me) raise the notion that 5 minutes of looking would have allowed the one "touched by God" with their TOE to see that not only have 6 to 60 people had the same epiphany but that others have better spelling than they do to boot. (like how I combined TOE with boot there doc?)

I am hoping tonight's episode leads to some interesting insights that will reflect on current theories and help to flesh out the conundrums raised last week.

But I myself am not disconnected.


---http://www.swedishpoet.com/awards/awardwp.gif---http://www.swedishpoet.com/awards/awardpft.gif---http://www.swedishpoet.com/awards/awardmip.gif---http://www.swedishpoet.com/awards/awardflame.gif

[trinabobina]

Reality is not only stranger than we suppose but stranger than we can suppose.

- J. B. S. Haldane

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Charlie is a bit off.

I think I liked him better before he turned into a gun slinger. Zombie Charlie was easier to take than rambo Charlie yelling at Shannon.

[lacenaire]

Is it possible on an island to develop cabin fever?

[NeillT006]

Oh that Chance. Such a kidder.

N.

[Chance Gardener]

Lace, I doubt they would on an island. Perhaps being stuck in the cave, but the cave seems pretty open to the outside.

[jaystao]

I'm hoping this episode might help formulate a real substance to the disconnect theory - something in the water, something in the wood, something in the air, something in the fire, something in the fuselage.... o.k, I'm guessing there are multiple something now. Not just a single disconnect. Something that may have been introduced or was already apparent, or was added to an existing anomally.....

[sawyerhasbestlines]

There definately was a disconnect last night. Everyone became exaggeration of themselves - or turned into entirely different characters.

Jack was raging more than usual. He gave up on the control. I thought for sure he'd line up a data entry team to take turns at the computer. Instead, he left the destiny of the number typing and computer problems to Locke and Sayid. I thought that was ironic considering the whole locke/jack fate/destiny thing. It's like Locke and Jack switched scripts.

Sawyer has pulled so many objects out of his arm in the last 40 days that it should look like gangrenous swiss cheese by now, but since he's turned into Rambo all those festering wounds seem to miraculously heal.

[drabauer]

I completely agree SHBL that Orientation featured a completely outsized Jack on the edge of reason (although some posters has offered a rationale, such that his psychic world is crumbling before his eyes.) All I will say right now is that the creators have placed enormous expectations on Sarah's backstory; it better be good!!!

Sawyer has pulled so many objects out of his arm in the last 40 days that it should look like gangrenous swiss cheese by now, but since he's turned into Rambo all those festering wounds seem to miraculously heal.

:rollin

[Chance Gardener]

Well, Sawyer is switching arms every few weeks. So that has to ameliorate the effects somewhat.

And Doc, thanks for clearing out the deadwood in this thread. I still grieve that the entire 'Lithium in the water' train of thought was irretrievably lost (heh, a pun) in the EZ Hack, but having all the empty posts removed makes for easier reviewing of this idea.

It was pointed out to me in another place that Michael's actions regarding his son mirrors my lead in example. He completely ignores the fact that Jin is missing and keeps yelling his fool head off for Walt as if vocal volume will magically cause Walt to reappear. And his continually focus on "Where's Walt?" puts himself and others at risk, making the likelihood of actually getting Walt back a more remote possibility. I'd rather see Michael the heir apparent to the Boone beatings than Sawyer seems to have become.

And still they continue to distrust when they should trust, and trust when they should distrust. If this is just a character flaw and not some force in action screwing up their thinking, then I'd love to play poker with these guys. I'd clean up in record time.

[NeillT006]

It was pointed out to me in another place that Michael's actions regarding his son mirrors my lead in example. He completely ignores the fact that Jin is missing and keeps yelling his fool head off for Walt as if vocal volume will magically cause Walt to reappear. And his continually focus on "Where's Walt?" puts himself and others at risk, making the likelihood of actually getting Walt back a more remote possibility.

$1 (US) that poster has no kids.

N.

[Chance Gardener]

True Neill, I don't have kids. I suppose nephews and nieces don't count. I suppose being human and believing children need to be protected and guided and nurtured don't count.

I suppose Michael's actions over the past ten years that he caves everytime someone takes Walt from him doesn't count. I suppose not bothering to try to stay alive in order to actually get your son back doesn't count.

I suppose the argument that unless you have kids you can't comment on the loss of a loved one being one of the lamest arguments in the world doesn't count.

You don't like any of this?

Then how about, after Sawyer saved his scrawny ass, Michael just sits on his little raft fragment and whines. Doesn't go get pieces of raft together to try to make something seaworthy to enable him to get back to the island. Doesn't get Sawyer to help in this task but instead insults him and is willing to let Sawyer drown.

So forgive me if I find your "you don't have a child so you just don't get it" argument compelling.

[NeillT006]

Chance:

I'm sorry. You sound offended, and certainly that was not my intent.

It is a wonderful thing that we, as a race, can (and every so often do) make the conscious decision to act out of concern for our fellows. Altruism is a special part of being human which can make it all worthwhile.

But the instinctive drives and responses which arise in circumstances involving children can be overwhelming at times, leading to conduct you and I as third party observers fairly well could deem irrational. This is what I was seeing when watching Michael.

(Do I get my dollar?)

N.

[drabauer]

Michael did seem a bit over-the-top, but it is easy to forget that all of the first two eps take place immediately after the season finale. In other words, they are all suffering PTSD, and are far from rationale. It does bug me that they spent so much time on Michael's backstory when we knew how devoted a father he was, and we also knew how stubborn he was when faced with impossible odds (his paltry legal funds vs. finding Walt on the island).

There may be other elements than the toy that "bear" out in future eps, but I am reminded that TPTB switched Sawyer's backstory for Michael's in this ep at the last minute.

[boonian androphile]

I am concluding that the whole Michael flashback was a mistake. I agree that we already knew of Michael's devotion to his kid---at least when they were reunited. We already knew of his anger when Susan said we're off to Amsterdam. So why not explore another area: What was Michael's life without Walt? Were there successes? failures? regrets? acceptance? Was there drifting on those New York City streets? Instead the same old conflict. The same old separation. Plus the hatch scenes, already dominant in the first episode, got another round in, detracting from the ocean setting. The writers should have gone all hatch with Locke's flashback, or all ocean with a better Michael flashback. Plus in real time, Sawyer and Michael were given a too convenient discussion towards the statement that Walt was the intended target anyway. How would Sawyer know that? He didnt witness Aaron's rescue. Nope, the ocean people were swept off the high seas and onto the other side of the island, which is fine, except that the whole process proved an episode of missed opportunities. The ocean was second fiddle to the hatch.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

What was Michael's life without Walt? Were there successes? failures? regrets? acceptance? Was there drifting on those New York City streets?

Welcome to 9/10ths of the live's of New Yorkers. Everyone is a drifter in a state of transience to some extent. The ones who move to NY come with big dreams and their Icarus crash landing is harder than those IMO who are born in NYC.

Saying that, living in NYC, I am surrounded by the working poor, single parents (dads too) raising their kids. They get monthly checks, subsidized housing, and free medical insurance for them and their kids. It sometimes appears as not too bad a gig. I have many an artist friend raising their kids this way. What I've noticed is that there is not a lot of shame to choose that lifestyle. People born here, are good at working the system, and choose not to get married, so they get the extra funding. It's how the working poor get to stay living in the big apple.

I think Michael, being a NewYorker, would have said: "I'm keeping the kid, get out of my face. I'm going to be a painter, chicks will like me cuz I'm raising my kid, and I'm going do date hot boho types who will be into it. My loft will be subsidized. My lawyer will be cheap, but really dirty. You got friends in high places, well I got friends in low ones. Back off, b*tch." I think that's more how that scene would have taken place.

[artemisia14]

Makes sense SHBL...
but hey....
where do ya get a subsidized LOFT???


Point me in that direction ASAP?

I did find her to be oddly annoying to be asking for the adoption thing and him to be oddly annoying for giving in.

Who gives in like that?!!!

Or have I been living in the Big Apple too long?

[merry slug]

I suppose the argument that unless you have kids you can't comment on the loss of a loved one being one of the lamest arguments in the world doesn't count.

Holy cow - I agree with Chance - again.
I'm marking this day in my diary :p

[sawyerhasbestlines]

where do ya get a subsidized LOFT???

They are called HDFC co-ops (gutted they are a loft) - available to low income folks. And they were cheap around the time Walt was 2 years old. I shouldn't say this here, but I bought mine for $12,000 in 98. In 92 people bought them for $2,000. They are filled with hippies, artists, and locals who grew up in the hood.

---------

(Chance, skip to the next post)

Holy cow - I agree with Chance - again.
I'm marking this day in my diary

When I was a newbie and used to read his posts, he sounded like Charles Winchester from M*A*S*H in my head. When he changed his avatar, Charles disappeared, and I found myself agreeing with him more and more. He's an aquired taste.

[merry slug]

^:lol I always had a crush on Charles Winchester -- watch out, Chance!

[Chance Gardener]

Even a busted clock is right twice a day. But SHBL is correct, I can be acquired taste - like brussel sprouts.

And SHBL, you've turned into an excellent and better yet entertaining poster, working very hard to get gold out of the often crappy ore theories that shows up. I appreciate your words (but I still don't think there are clones) and I will try to keep them in mind when dealing with stewbies. I'm glad you stuck with it.

[NeillT006]

like brussel sprouts

A little white vinegar, butter and salt. Yum.

N.

[drabauer]

And SHBL, you've turned into an excellent and better yet entertaining poster,

as if she wasn't all that already!!!!!?

working very hard to get gold out of the often crappy ore theories that shows up.

Apparently Chance has turned into as less grammatically-correct poster; oh for the orator of old we once "chanced" across on this board!

[joepa15425]

Not that anybody has asked...but I'm gonna throw my $.02 in.

I can remember way back being very critical of Chance-The Post-Replier. His ability to use wit, sarcasm, and intelligent prose put off, offended, and aggatated a lot of newbies, not-so-newbies, and probably a few hard-core veterans (although sadly I think they lacked the back bone to tell him so). However, Chance the theorist has been one of the best, if not the best, this board has had. Even when he would enrage me, I never forgot this. Usually, I would at first laugh my ass off at his posts. Because, he was first to point out to a newbie, what we were all thinking, it was hard to argue with what he was saying. I sometimes just got mad because he said it. Or rather, I felt somebody else should be saying it (a mod? maybe?), but still I WOULD LAUGH MY ASS OFF.

In fact, as for my own personal testiment, this theory in particular is always in my forethoughts as I watch the show-- that's how influential he has been to me.

And, I'm not sure if I were the one to which Chance refers when discussing Michael's actions on the raft with Sawyer, but I totally agree, and have said so in other posts. Not discounting what Neill and Doc say about this, but I am a father of 13 year old boy, and I think Michael's actions were the worse.

On the other hand, I have been saying for a long time that our heroes aren't so heroic. I think that's just one more example. I don't mean heroic in the Rambo sense. I'm sure as Neill points out, Michael loves his son and would do anything (violent) to get him back. But, instead of remaining calm, surveying his circumstances, accepting what has happened, and formulating a plan that will best help Walt, Michael crumbles and reverts back to a child himself, assigning blame to everybody and everything. He reminded me of my own son, who, while playing his playstation will sometimes out of frustration, shout out, "IT'S CHEATING", because he can't complete a certain level or beat some bad guy.

He was not only willing to let Sawyer drown, but was also willing to go it alone, in the dark, on some bamboo, with a shark circling. Walt was on a boat and at the moment not in harm's way, Jin was in the water; Sawyer had been shot. His first concern should have been to find Jin and help treat Sawyer's wound.

Now I don't think either one of them have had any Naval or Marine Corps survival at sea training, but under those circumstances with Michael screaming, yelling, and falling to pieces, I believe Sawyer would have been justified if he would have put a 9mm, or .380 (whichever it was, I'm not sure) in the back of Michael's head, just below the base of the skull, aiming at 30 degree angle. Then, all Sawyer has to do is dump Michael's dead ass overboard, to keep the shark busy while he made his way away from the danger. Think that's crazy? Maybe, but history is full of events that have unfolded the way I just mentioned--just read some WWII Pacific Theater books.

Ok...it was $.09.

[jaystao]

you know, Joepa you were the first person to ever reply to one of my posts. A terrible post which you most rightly dismissed with one all encompassing word. You endeared yourself to me after that because of that initial beating I stepped up my game and became a full flegded fan of lost and this board. If you hadnt I'd probably never of had the pleasure of posting here. Likewise it is an honour to be rattled by Chances sometimes scathing observations! And others. These warriors of the board uphold the integrity and substance of posts.

I was dissapointed with Micheals story and his catch frays (wheres Walt) like reactions. I think it was perfectly natural for him to be slightly crazed by the events, but it was too 'typical' of how his character has been played out so far. No surprizes which I blame on having such a mixed 'fusion' of events - the hatch, the raft. Theres to much going on to concetrate on the here and now of the moment. I think Micheals "wheres Walt' is the same limbic ritual that forms the similar psychosis of others such as Kates "running/climbing' Jacks "save everyone" and Lockes "destiny/island' talk. As well as the eventual 'you can't tell me what to do' phenomena. However, the raft was a control in which we could tell the effects of disconnect somehow. If Micheal is suffering the effects of disconnect then he was suffering them 'off island', which means that the effect would be far reaching either as a matter of distance or as a matter of time. Though I still contend that these people were already warped some how and being only agigatated by the islands overall effect.

[Chance Gardener]

Jay,

You raise an interesting point with their distance from the island. If the island is causing the effect, then either the effect is far reaching or it is long lasting.

But keep in mind, they have only been gone a day or two. They've not really been away from the island long at all.

And my mining for gold sentence is grammatically correct if you would take a moment to contextualize it. <insert self righteous nose sniff here>

[LostInWilderness]

Page 5? I shot this theory down in the original pages from 5 to 15. All that is gone forever, like the Ezsuckshacker.

Nice to see you back Chance. I hope you brought your newbie stick.

[athywithak]

Can magnetic forces cause brain scrambling disconnects?

[lacenaire]

Another HUGE disconnect is Desmond's reaction of episode 2x03.

He wants to get out of the island and his boat is crushed in the reef, so all logic will tell a reasonable person: I can get this people to help me fix the boat and tell them how to operate things around the hatch and give them all the information I can as to what Kelvin told me.

On the contrary, he bolts like a madman trough the freaking jungle with no weapon and just a bunch of bottles of his insuline medicine or something.

One more disconnect is the one suffered by everyone that hasn't been inside the hatch yet. How is it that no one wants to peep inside? What's that? Rose saying to Hurley "it's your business what happened in the hatch". I am still nonplussed.

[NeillT006]

Another HUGE disconnect is Desmond's reaction of episode 2x03.

Well I think there is an even HUGER one.

Keep in mind the elapsed time in the story and don't get fooled by the summer hiatus.

In a period of, what, 48 hours max, they are told there are others roaming around the island, a heavily armed French woman with decidedly odd behaviors is somewhere, they find an ocean going vessel miles inland, Locke is attacked by old smokey, people get blown up, evidence of tragedy from the raft expedition washes ashore, and they discover a wierd underground facility, complete with an arsenal.

So what do they do?

Let's have a luau!!!

Who is guarding the hatch and its weapons cache? Seems to me the door is broken, isn't it?

Geesh.

N.

[cajdb]

I'm not sure what I think about this theory, but I can say that since I read it the first time it is always at the back of my mind.

I always thought the strongest support for this theory was the way Claire's abduction was handled. She's taken in All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues (written By Javier Grillo Marxuach) and then we get three new eps in which no one does anything productive to get her back...


In Whatever the Case May Be (written by Damon Lindelof & Jennifer Johnson)

Boone says to Shannon that he and Locke have been looking for Claire, but they have actually given up the search because they found the hatch at the end of the previous episode.

Rose tries to comfort Charlie, but this is sort of tacked on to the end.

And for anyone that says, oh, but they are afraid of the jungle, remember that this ep opens with Kate runnung around picking fruit in the jungle, and she isn't too afraid to frolic in the waterfall with Sawyer.

In Hearts and Minds (written by Carlton Cuse & Javier Grillo-Marxuach)

Charlie mentions Claire's abduction. That's pretty much it. An entire day and no one thinks, maybe we shouldn't abandon the pregnant lady *or* at least maybe we should be worried about our own safety.

In Special (written by David Fury)

Charlie is not worried about Claire, but Claire's luggage and more particularly her diary. Well, at least he's thought about her.

Charlie reads the diary and comes across Claire's dream about the black rock. He rushes to Jack... say maybe she's there and Jack pretty much says "we can't wander around the island in the middle of the night"... but what have they been doing for the past three days!!!

So, in these three eps, IMO, the lostaways are completely disconnected from current events. Not only aren't they worried about the pregnant lady (which I think is pretty disconnected) they aren't even worried about their own, selfish, safety.

I think the disconnect there is pretty much undeniable. Now the question, in my mind, is why. Is there something about the island (like lithium, or eucalyptus) that is making them act like this? I'm not sure. Or is it the writing? This is why I've included the writers of each ep above. I hesitate to call it bad writing, because that isn't exactly what I mean, but maybe simultaneous writing? It feels, to me, that they worked on these eps without enough communication flow between each other and that they tacked in the few Claire bits that are there.

So, I'm currently thinking the disconnect is a product of a team that is just hitting their stride, but I have to say I can't completely let the idea go... there is something there that lingers at the back of my mind.

----
I also wanted to respond to a couple of the previous posters...

But, instead of remaining calm, surveying his circumstances, accepting what has happened, and formulating a plan that will best help Walt, Michael crumbles and reverts back to a child himself, assigning blame to everybody and everything.

The interesting thing about the most recent Michael flashback that I have seen anyone comment on is that it shows that Michael gives up Walt because he thinks it is the best thing he can do for Walt. Michael also takes Walt on the raft because he thinks it is the best thing he can do for Walt. Michael on the raft seemed to be acting pretty consistent. He's doing what he thinks is best... trying to let Walt know his father is still out there... and it isn't the right thing because Michael is just wasting his energy. When Sawyer points this out it seems to hit a sore spot, probably because Sawyer is, at least partly, right. It is after this exchange that Michael gets angry and starts lashing out at Sawyer.

In a period of, what, 48 hours max, they are told there are others roaming around the island, a heavily armed French woman with decidedly odd behaviors is somewhere, they find an ocean going vessel miles inland, Locke is attacked by old smokey, people get blown up, evidence of tragedy from the raft expedition washes ashore, and they discover a wierd underground facility, complete with an arsenal.

So what do they do?

Let's have a luau!!!

Who is guarding the hatch and its weapons cache? Seems to me the door is broken, isn't it?


I think the writers are at least trying to deal with this issue. Remember that Charlie is emphatic that there are no others... he says "No one is out there. No one is coming... The French woman is missing a bloody wing nut, you know. I mean, it was all bollocks. It's a ghost story. She set the fire herself."

And then later, he and Shannon have the following exchange:

CHARLIE: Hey, Shannon, there are no Others; we've already had this conversation.

SHANNON: What the hell would you know about it -- just because you didn't see anything?

CHARLIE: There's no one out there.

SHANNON: You don't know.

So, some of the lostaways are concerned about the situation.

As for the lua, I think the appearance of real food is going to cause a celebration of sorts no matter the danger. As for your question, I don't know who was guarding the hatch when they had their lua... but since someone has to push the button every 108 mins, I assumed someone was. (I know people have looked through the screencaps trying to figure out who it was, but I haven't seen anything conclusive.) My assumption may be wrong.

One last note (I know this is long, sorry). I find the general reaction in the episode discussion threads to the actions of the Lostaways/Tailenders very interesting.... the Lostaways, in some ways, can never do enough... but the Tailenders (who seem to be very aware of the dangers) must be sick. Not sure what to make of this, but it makes me chuckle.

[Chance Gardener]

Page 5? I shot this theory down in the original pages from 5 to 15. All that is gone forever, like the Ezsuckshacker.Yea, right. You go on thinking that if it gives you comfort at night.

The EZ Hack has done more harm to this theory than any refutation you have proferred.

The loss of the Lithium and Tesla side threads in this theory I actually grieve over more now than the disconnect material. Not because they outshined this main theory, but because they provided an excellent demonstration that well presented theories, even if weak on their own merits, can generate much better discussions than by allowing 15 iterations of the same half baked topic to fluourish without objection in the hopes that maybe one of the 15 grows some balls to swagger off into the sunset with.

But the thought that you "put paid" to this theory at least is worthy of a chuckle or two.

[lacenaire]

Hello Chancegardener

What do you think about The Monarch Project as an explanation of the disconnect?

Levels of MONARCH Programming :


ALPHA. Regarded as “general” or regular programming within the base control personality; characterized by extremely pronounced memory retention, along with substantially increased physical strength and visual acuity. Alpha programming is accomplished through deliberately subdividing the victims personality which, in essence, causes a left brain-right brain division, allowing for a programmed union of L and R through neuron pathway stimulation.

BETA. Referred to as “sexual” programming. This programming eliminates all learned moral convictions and stimulates the primitive sexual instinct, devoid of inhibitions. “cat” alters may come out at this level.

DELTA. This is known as “killer” programming, originally developed for training special agents or elite soldiers (i.e. Delta Force, First Earth Battalion, Mossad, etc.) in covert operations. Optimal adrenal output and controlled aggression is evident. Subjects are devoid of fear; very systematic in carrying out their assignment. Self-destruct or suicide instructions are layered in at this level.

THETA considered to the “psychic” programming. Bloodliners (those coming from multi-generational Satanic families) were determined to exhibit a greater propensity for having telepathic abilities than did non-bloodliners. Due to its evident limitations, however, various forms of electronic mind control systems were developed and introduced, namely, bio-medical human telemetry devices (brain implants), directed-energy lasers using microwaves and/or electromagnetics. It is reported these are used in conjunction with highly-advanced computers and sophisticated satellite tracking systems.

OMEGA. A “self-destruct” form of programming, also known as “Code Green.” The corresponding behaviors include suicidal tendencies and/or self-mutilation. This program is generally activated when the victim/survivor begins therapy or interrogation and too much memory is being recovered.

GAMMA. Another form of system protection is through “deception” programming, which elicits misinformation and misdirection. This level is intertwined with demonology and tends to regenerate itself at a later time if inappropriately deactivated.

[Issek]

Another item to add to the list of things they should have done:

Why didn't they ask Desmond where the island is? He is supposedly a world-class sailor, able to compete in a solo around the world race (ala the BOC), so even if his GPS and compass weren't working when he crashed, he should be more than competent enough in celestial navigation to provide at least a rough estimate of the island's latitude and longitude.

[Chance Gardener]

Issek, that is a good point. It occurs to me that Danielle should possibly be able to answer the very same question, as her expedition was en route to another island and diverted to Craphole Is. due to encountering the numbers being broadcast.

Lace, I have heard of some of this type of conditioning, mostly through sci fi or bad B movies, but as an actual systematic project, no I've not heard of this.

Some of Kate's behavior seems to fit the Delta methodology, except for the fact that she quite obviously feels fear, almost to the point of being crippled by it. As if she feels not only her own, but the fears of others as well (imagine the waves of fear Charlie was projecting in his heroin induced high as the stobor was about to make him hobbit kibble - add that to the very intense fear Kate was feeling and you could see how Kate was nearly incapacitated by fear - only Jack's story{aka the Bene Gesseret mantra} enabled her to manage the fear).

I suppose your line of thinking is that the Dharma Initiative instituted these protocols as part of their sociological utopian investigations, to determine ways to achieve an ideal society through sociological improvements in the public consciousness. Would I be correct?

[lacenaire]

The only proof of the existence of the Dharma iniciative is the film and the symbols, I am begining to believe that it a hoax.

I believe the disconnect is caused by the Monarch Project, but that it is a mean to an end, the latter being something related to interdimensional travel (The third Policeman-Project Montauk-Philadelphia Experiment).

Each one has a mission and some set of directives that has to unconciously follow, disregarding everything else and at all costs (like Locke did with Boone).

[LostInWilderness]

Neill wrote:Who is guarding the hatch and its weapons cache? Seems to me the door is broken, isn't it?
I think everybody accepted that the "others" coming was a hoax perpetrated by Danielle, but I think that the writing and plotting (and characters) were horrible in "Orientation." I don't think it was the characters being disconnected but the writers being very sloppy. I hope the pair on shift at the hatch had fun together, though we saw all the lostaways at the luau, and we have no knowledge of redshirts having been recruited.

As for Desmond, this is just further evidence he was lying. We have the statements that he had been there 3 years and that he had no contact, yet he had a recently restocked pantry. Clearly he's lying here, and the rest of his story was as sturdy as a paper bag of water.

Yea, right. You go on thinking that if it gives you comfort at night.
I wondered how long it would take to get your attention Chance. ;) It's a serious shame what the hack did to this theory. No doubt about it.

ETA: Alright Lace! I agree the Dharma thing is all a cheesy hoax. We need to keep winning over supporters.

[drabauer]

LiW you are seriously pissing me off by dissing my Scottish love muffin!

The man devotes his life to sail around the world in a race, only to be stuck listening to wretched late 60s music, living amidst harvest colors ca. early 70s Montgomery Ward and eating canned peaches with infotainment-procured protein muscle powder.

Give the guy a break! He's just trying to survive.

Don't tell me your heart didn't break just a little when he cried "What haveya dun!!!???"

[Warthawg1]

And SHBL, you've turned into an excellent and better yet entertaining poster, working very hard to get gold out of the often crappy ore theories that shows up.

Funny... I've always thought SHBL was a high quality poster, but I guess now it's official. Congratulations SHBL on finally living up to Chance's standards! You can now sleep easy at night.

[Chance Gardener]

And Hawg has grown up to be someone wearing undies two sizes too small. But then I guess every sniper has to have a snipee.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Well, I'm still trying to aquire a taste for brussell sprouts... in the meantime I'll settle for Desi in his jumpsuit.

[the Chameleon]

the Lostaways, in some ways, can never do enough... but the Tailenders (who seem to be very aware of the dangers) must be sick. Not sure what to make of this, but it makes me chuckle.

The tail section survivors sick ??
Is this a general consensus based upon how they handled the rafters ??
Admittedly, it was brutal and presumptuous, but it gives one a sobering indication of the dangers they have encountered on the island. To overpower three strangers with total force without so much as a warning shows us the seriousness of the lessons they have learned. Their experiences on the island have taught them what they must do in order to survive.
The tail section people have met the "enemy" and, consequently, have made the necessary adjustments to ensure their survival.
In the preview for episode 5, we hear Mr. E exclaim: "You don't know what they're capable of." (This in reference to the Others) It's certainly a very sobering statement that only a fool would disregard. Again, as I already said, the tail section people have met the "enemy" and know them well.

The beach castaways, however, are like sheep.
Whenever a crisis is over, they go right back to their complacent lifestyle. They don't think about making plans and seem to feel that they are relatively safe. They don't take any action unless prompted by something outside their group. They simply react to everything.
Personally, I think the collective mind-set of the beach people is irrational.

[the Chameleon]

The loss of the Lithium and Tesla side threads in this theory

I wasn't around back then, but I'm curious as to how Lithium would be connected to mind control.
If anything, Lithium would be a deterrent.
In the late 1940's, a doctor in Australia discovered that Lithium, when administered over a period of time, reduced the symptoms of mania and manic-psychosis to a point where the patients were well enough to be released from the hospital and sent home.

Also, Lithium has a natural healing quality.
People with severe skin conditions often bathe in waters that contain high levels of Lithium.
Ernest Hemingway was known to visit a pond in Florida for this purpose.

[Shaper]

I also wasn't around for those threads, but I think the idea was that Litium leaching into the water could be responsible for the demeanour of the sheeple on the beach.

I don't subscribe to the idea on what little I've heard, since in contrast many of the main characters appear both aggressive, uptight and energetic, and they're been drinking the same water as everyone else.

Not sure what the tesla theories were about, but at a guess it's related to the magnetic anomaly, or to the psychological effects of strong electromagnetic fields at frequencies close to brain waves (alpha/beta/gamma/delta/theta).

Anyone who was here before either of us want to give us a brief few-line summary of how these threads pertain to the Disconnect observation?

[jaystao]

In order for lithium to be active in high qauntities enough to effect the overall disposition of our castaways, it would need some kind of 'nullifying agent' to stop the 'other' side effects of lithium over consumption taking place - that is nausea, dioria, vomiting, stomach pains and other nasties. Something that allows for the beneficial effects of lithium use but lessening the harmful side effects of long term exposure.

That is all.... ENJOY THE NEXT EPISODE OF LOST!!

[Chance Gardener]

I was thinking about the difference in behavior between the middies and the tailies. I does seem that the middies seem to 'forget' the dangers confronting them from only a day or two before. I'm not talking about Sayid and Shannon boinking; folk'll boink anywhere anywhen.

But still, no real guards/sentries posted. Let's not go into the 'being shown/not being shown' argument over this. I think we can all tell there aren't sentries on the beach and probably not in the caves. Further, the middies sleeping arrangements show an open, exposed setup. Why aren't they all in the hatch? That was the purpose - protection. It has two easily defended points of entry and if they wanted they could seal off the blown hatch making just one point.

And let's not go into the 'it's only a TV show' reply again. Let's assume this IS being written this way for a reason and that reason isn't because the writers are incompetent, lazy, or taking dramatic license.

After a month and a half of living in this strange environment, then seeing creepy Walt, Shannon runs off without protection and gets herself shot. Even accounting for the "blonde" aspect, Shannon had become a calculating planner, accustomed to assessing situations in order to maximize their benefit to her. I submit that her running off just to get shot shows that she was 'disconnected' and that was why she got perfed.

And let's take a simpler scene: Rose and Hurley doing laundry. That they see the bunker as a laundry room AND doomsday room. Yet, it really doesn't seem important to them, just that they "...don't like it." Still, no curiousity over the bunker, its purpose, its contents (fresh food, geodesic dome no one has seen inside of yet), or its former inhabitant(s) is more than odd in my thoughts. And we are so far from the "they're traumatized from the crash" explanation at this point that being blase about such things makes no sense.

It makes me wonder then if it's the location on the island the middies are at or if something besides 'the Others' has been working on the tailies to make them behave differently.

[LostViking]

t makes me wonder then if it's the location on the island the middies are at or if something besides 'the Others' has been working on the tailies to make them behave differently.
__________________

I think the answer to this is environment. We the viewers can see the need to behave the way the tailies do. We know there are a large number of deadly others. The tallies know this, because they encountered them face to face. The tailies group has lost more than 2/3 of their numbers to the others. The others pose a real and constant danger to them and they behave accordingly.
The middies have only encountered two other poeple on the island, Ethan and Danielle. The only middies that have been abducted are Charlie and Claire. Skeeve was killed on the beach. That leaves over 90% of the middies group unscathed. The middies have no knowledge of the rafties fate. With Ethan's death, the middies have eliminated the only threatening presence they have encountered on the island, with the exception of the Stober, who resides in the Jungle. Jack and our core group of Losties have been careful to keep information and speculation away from the main middies population, for fear of needlessly alarming them.
Not even considering the others, the middies have had it much easier. The middies have Locke and Jin providing a constant supply of protien, without making the group as a whole work. Look at how hard the tailies were working to net fish. I bet the tallies had to work all day just to provide enough food to survive. The middies as a whole get to lounge around and wait for the dinner bell. Even the hatches are unfair. The tailies had a dirt floor, the middies had a shower and a stereo.
I think the middies environment is fattening them up for the kill. The tailies, on the other hand, have hardened up. The craphole island workout beats Pillates.:)

[Chimera]

I'm gonna get overly general... I'm tired and can't think straight.

If you look carefully at all of the main characters, they're all outcasts and loners, for one reason or another. Many of them are self-centered and have reasons not to trust others. Their backstories show them not to be team players (for the most part).

Jack~ "outcast" because of tattle-taling on his father, etc. But, he seems the most interested in what happens with other. Contrast this with:

Kate~ a criminal who has been on the run for sometime and has grown accustomed to lying and looking out for herself. She seems shy to draw near anyone.

Charlie~ a recovering druggy ex-rock god... Of everyone, he seems more interested in others, but has a pile of emotional baggage; makes it harder to look at others that way.

Sawyer~ been accused of and labelled as a thief, etc.etc. from the beginning. Former con-man...

Sayid~ a former intelligence office with a history of hiding information going back to Nadia. We seem to find out what he is revealing about Danielle incidentally or when he is confronted about her.

Hurley~ He seems to have the best heart in the bunch and most interested in other... I don't remember him being around when there was the drowning incident.

Anyways... I could continue... But, as I said, we have a group of highly indivualistic people, with reasons and histories of not working *with* others, but using or hiding from others, who are stuck in a situation where they should be doing teamwork... Something I am sure which will not come naturally.

As for the red-shirts... meh... in real life, somebody's drowning at a beach, how many folks will take the initiative to try and save them? Especially if someone is already trying...? We get to see a lot of "someone else will take care of it" in real life... Why would it be that different on the island?

I agree, [i]Ferret Dragon[/b]. I think there has been sufficient explanation for the lostaways attitudes through flashbacks and through their interactions on the island. I see them as "stakeholders" to smaller groups, even though they function as a large group strictly for survival.
The other reason I don't completely buy the "zombie" or "herd" theory is that I believe the main reason we don't see more of the 42 (47, 48?) survivors together on tasks is because of the logistics of a tv show -- it would get awfully expensive for the producers, and it would ger really confusing for the viewer.
I don't think it's a bad theory, but I personally would prefer that it is not true. I like them the way they are...

[Magical Trevor]

The middies have only been attacked once on the beach, supposedly by Ethan who is now dead. The beach seems like a safe haven because most of the death and violence happens in the jungle.

[NeillT006]

The middies have only been attacked once on the beach, supposedly by Ethan who is now dead. The beach seems like a safe haven because most of the death and violence happens in the jungle.


Come on. Think of how you would react. If I was there and heard that monster, once we found that hatch and its arms locker I wouldn't be going anywhere unless I looked like Rambo going for a Sunday stroll.

N.

[justfacts]

One of my theories is that when the button is pushed it makes the people on the other side of the Island sick

[Chance Gardener]

Mmm, yea, I don't buy the button pushing causing things to happen.
I suppose this is tied to the kill button experiment (person in a room, other person in the other room. one person gets ordered to push a button. Each time a jolt of electricity is given. Each time the button is pushed, the jolt doubles. The button pusher knows this. At the fifth time, the push is lethal. Most folks, when ordered, still push it, still seeing the person twitch) but I don't agree.

I think it was a stop gap method of controlling the big bad for some reason. Then the stobor happened or the nature of the island squelched the Dharmites plan to fix things and they got turned into stobor kibble or sent into another dimension or became the others.

I don't think pushing the button causes things, I believe it stops something.

[Shaper]

Interesting parallel Chance, but an essential part of the kill-button experiment was that the button-pusher could see or hear the harm he was causing. It was testing people's obedience to authority figures even when they were being told to do something they knew was wrong. Without this understanding of the consequences there's no point to the experiment (unless instead it's a skinner box to test blind faith).

What do I think will happen if they don't push the button? The countdown timer will beep... the last digit will flick over... nothing will happen for a minute or so... then a small discrete hatch will pop open leading to an even more secret hatch complex below this one, with an even more pointless-seeming task and no more bloody answers than the previous hatch.

Come on, you've all been watching the show, and know the writers by now - who doesn't see this happening? :D

[LQ Jones]

Interesting parallel Chance, but an essential part of the kill-button experiment was that the button-pusher could see or hear the harm he was causing. It was testing people's obedience to authority figures even when they were being told to do something they knew was wrong.

This experiment was performed in the 1950's.
Result: Obedience to authority proved to be the stronger factor.
The button pusher continued their job in spite of the pain and suffering imposed upon the test subject.

[yung23]

I believe it stops something....

gray goo ?

[lacenaire]

By Jove!
THe next thing will be seeing is Locke in a smoking jacket.
Someone acting as Jeeves.
Vincent would bring Locke his slippers.
And he would solve the Times crossword sitting on a couch by the chimney.
If Jeeves comes and tells Locke he's got a call from Aunt Delia I'll crack in two.
Jeeves let's pack for America, cheerio island!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total disconnection.
Even the bad whispers guys.
They hear a gunshot and flee like scared sheep or something?
And Kate joking with Charlie about the hanging tree?
And Sun after hearing Jin has returned just leaves the hatch and goes to make her laundry?

Are you losing your patience with the show like I am?

[LQ Jones]

And Sun after hearing Jin has returned just leaves the hatch and goes to make her laundry?


Same here.
I was surprised to see that Sun went back to finish the laundry.
I would have expected her to be waiting on the beach, nervous with anticipation.
Is this an oversight on part of the writing team or something intentional ??

[lacenaire]

At this point these questions loom in my horizon...

What if the writers failed?
And your patience is Lost?

----------------------------


Why aren't the rest of the survivors killing to have a hot shower.
The hatch has electricity and records, no one wants to listen to the Papas and the Mamas?
Maybe play twister and parchese with Locke?

[WayOffCourse]

And now the tailies show the same kind of disconnect as the fusies. Cindy was JUST NABBED. And everyone saunters off to the fusies' camp--Cindy who??? They had very little reason to believe the others took her as they had never before been infiltrated during the day. I understand they'd been through a lot, but amnesia seems to have set in awfully rapidly.

[cuba]

I'm not convinced by this theory. I believe the disconnect is a technique on the part of the writers that simply increases dramatic tension. What was more important - having the tailies look for Cindy, a character barely known to us, or having the confrontation between Ana and Sayid?

If it does not directly move the plot forward, show a development in character, or involve a conflict/resolution, then not only is it an absolute waste of time, it would be terribly poor writing to include scenes of "logical behavior" just because it makes sense.

[lacenaire]

One of the Best examples of disconnect up to date IMO:

Rose: What you got there, Hurley?

Hurley: Uh... it's dynamite.

Rose: Dynamite? Well,what are you doing with it?

I'm guessing it won't be a chocolate cake?

[azteclady]

(...)If it does not directly move the plot forward, show a development in character, or involve a conflict/resolution, then not only is it an absolute waste of time, it would be terribly poor writing to include scenes of "logical behavior" just because it makes sense.
(the bolding of text is mine)

It's poor writing to include scenes that make the characters appear at least halfway sane and rational, i.e., engaged in logical, rational, reasonable behaviour under the circumstances.?

Dear Lord - I shudder to contemplate what would be then considered good writing!

[bigmouth]

Another example of the disconnect mentioned on another site: No one seems curious what happened to Walt.

[Shelley]

the one thing that annoys me about the show is the lack of communication between characters! Whenever something happens the details are never mentioned to the other losties. If I was trapped on an island with monsters, "others", polar bears and weird underground hatches I would be talking to everyone gathering any specific info I could. These people lack problem solving skills plain and simple. I was also very surprised about what hillbillies the "others" are after they made them out to be almost inhuman in earlier episodes (ie leaving no tracks, wispering in the trees, super human strength, snatching losties with no one noticing etc.)

[LostInWilderness]

Welcome to the board Shelley. Please read the welcome forum and look around.

This is probably the longest running gripe about the show. I'll merge your post into a thread you might like.

[I Hate Seabillies]

I'll second your observation. There are hundreds of things that have happened that no one seems to talk about. Shannon was the only one who spoke of what she saw (Walt) albeit it a crazy manner.

- No one asks the Michael, Jin or Sawyer what happened on the boat.
- Ecko and Charlie come back having seen the monster and don't mention it to anyone
- Sayid not telling Michael he saw Walt just before Shannon was shot
- Ana Lucia doesn't share the info she got from the guy she killed (name escapes me)
- No one thinks of finding Danielle to get more info
- Locke, Sawyer, Jack don't talk about things Zeke said the whole way back

These writers tick me off.

Add to the list. Let's see how many unrealistic happenings these writers expect us to swallow (and by unrealistic, i mean things that run counter to natural human interaction and not the unrealistic floating black "smoky")

[Jinjur]

Not to mention if I was Jack I would be hold a frickin' group meeting telling everybody at one time, that they are all screwed because there are some angry people living just to the North. Oh yeah and now they have a bunch of our weapons. Tell them to get of their butts and be prepared to fight. The communication between charachters and their reactions would take away from the mystery I suppose because we all deem it to be so natural and nessesary. We thrive on it.

[SanityAmongstChaos]

Maybe it's just me, but I think the writers have begun to address this issue. In fact, I was saying last night that I think the writers have been spending too much time on the forums and are scrambling to address problems that are bugging people there. Examples from the last two episodes:

1/11/06

Michael admits that running through the jungle screaming WAAALT! is not a bright idea
1/18/06

Someone finally realized that the name Sawyer wasn't on the flight manifest
They are finally doing someting with all those guns in the station
Jack is prepared to take a survivalist approach to the presence of other hostile people on the island
People are starting to see the value of the amenities in the hatch (Charlie and Hurley going through the records)
There were more that struck me last week, but I can't think of them at the moment.

[DannyOcean05]

Okay if there is a disconnect with how the characters are on the island and how they are in the flashbacks, wouldn't that lend some credence to the flashbacks being disconnected from the people they result from?

Not necessarily because they're different people physically, but because mentally maybe they're different people. Of course this brings up the whole Personal Identity issue. What is it to be you, mind or body?

[DannyOcean05]

If it does not directly move the plot forward, show a development in character, or involve a conflict/resolution, then not only is it an absolute waste of time, it would be terribly poor writing to include scenes of "logical behavior" just because it makes sense.

I understand where you're coming from, but isn't it better a writer tries to make things seem logical, rather than 'pulled out of the ass'? I know it's difficult to create tension, involve only the characters you want to involve and move the story along, but if they could somehow maintain a sense of reality (and yes, what kind of reality would that be with polar bears on a tropical island, I know) that would be good writing.

[Hawksrule]

Definitely a theory thread developing here.

Not sure I agree that the characters are acting out of character with their flashbacks, though. Tonight, for example, it's clear that Jack has a deep-seated need to fix things (HIMself- not to see things fixed, but to validate himself).

Many of the flashbacks have shown a tendency to let others control them. Locke, Charlie, and Sayid all have elements in their flashback that indicate they are controllable, and (at least sometimes) willing to let others take charge. Perhaps the people here were chosen (before boarding the plane) for their apathy.

Or, it could just be too hot to do all that running around.

[LostInWilderness]

I have argued quite a bit in this thread that this "disconnect" could be explained by warped individuals being thrust into an unreal situation.

After 50 days on the island I'm putting it down to writers making the characters do unrealistic things in order to force the plot where they want it to go. The brain's rejection of reasonable actions can only last so long.

[lerroy]

yeah if i was onl the island i would be hanging at the hatch all day but there seems to be only a few there at a time ???

come on everyone would wanna be in there hanging listening to mucis hot showers good, MSNing ,exploring ??

but yeah i guess its the writers way to not show everything although it is frustrating its part of the show part of the intrigue that keeps us watching

[Kate hunter]

If the characters hung out in and around the hatch 24/7, they'd have no use for their many crates of mysterious blue tarps. :rotfl:

[Fish1941]

I have argued quite a bit in this thread that this "disconnect" could be explained by warped individuals being thrust into an unreal situation.

After 50 days on the island I'm putting it down to writers making the characters do unrealistic things in order to force the plot where they want it to go. The brain's rejection of reasonable actions can only last so long.


Or perhaps they are taking the characters toward a darker place . . . and many fans don't want to consider this. There has been talk on other forums that many of the Lostaways might slowly be drifting into madness after nearly two months on the island . . . just like Danielle's fellow survivors. Also, one of the producers did state that the show will become darker by the end of S2.

[Cow]

Or perhaps they are taking the characters toward a darker place . . . and many fans don't want to consider this. There has been talk on other forums that many of the Lostaways might slowly be drifting into madness after nearly two months on the island . . . just like Danielle's fellow survivors. Also, one of the producers did state that the show will become darker by the end of S2.
I think people are starting to go a little bit crazy, or at least acting like it. Michael stole guns and ran into the jungle, Anna Lucia shot everyone's favorite castaway, Charlie is stealing the baby, Locke is beating him up AFTER getting Boone killed.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

This theory's got legs.

They are all going off the deep-end. Last night, it seemed like the darkest shadowing parts of the character's personality became magnified.

Mentioned by Dohboy and Khan in Sawyer character thread:

Hurley is caught hoarding and eating food.

Sawyer is murdering defensless frogs.

Sayid is back to torturing.

The episode before Charlie is hitting Sun on the head.

[carmela]

This is absolutely the direction that the show is taking - the characters are getting darker, more complex and, as a result, less likeable. It would seem that this would be the natural progression of things - 50+ strangers stranded on a island with lots of weird occurences. So much for the sweet romances and the clever one-liners...this is now going to be about a lack of trust and establishing alliances.

I hear lots of freinds complaining about the last 3 or 4 episodes - "nothing is happening" they keep saying. I think that a lot is actually happening. Our characters are changing, for the worst. The next few episodes may be less about the monster and the other mysteries and instead focus on how our characters are starting to turn.

If the battle between good and evil is central to "Lost" (as many believe), then we may see the characters going thru their own personal battle with the temptations of evil.

[Chance Gardener]

I'd like to take a moment to clarify something about this thread. It's not meant to ask if the characters are behaving differently from their pasts as evidenced in the flashbacks.

The main point of the disconnect is that while on the island, they have lost or are disconnected from doing even basic connections, whether it be of an interpersonal nature or of a logical/reasoning/planning nature.

Unfortunately, much of the earlier discussions at the beginning of this thread were lost last year in the EZHack of aught five. Many possible explanations for the reasons a disconnect may or may not be occurring were posited but have since been lost to the cyber winds. Personally, I still believe this disconnect is ongoing and that it is not merely due to the constraints of presenting episodic drama in ways meant to maximize tension. I believe it is one of the driving subtexts of all the plotlines and explains many things. Like not even making any attempt to look for Cindy - or even have any concerns for her at all, beyond simply mentioning her loss.

It isn't meant to point out any supposed dichotomy between the flashbacks and the present day for any of the survivors. It's meant to point out the failings of their responses to present circumstances and situation.

[yung23]

they have lost or are disconnected from doing even basic connections, whether it be of an interpersonal nature or of a logical/reasoning/planning nature....




Chance :)
how is Sawyer able to come up with such a perfectly linear plan with this theory ?

Charlie could even see the logic and the connecting dots in it all.

so how they have such focus ?

[LostInWilderness]

Haven't we decided that this disconnect is simply to move the plot forward?

[badboy]

This is absolutely the direction that the show is taking - the characters are getting darker, more complex and, as a result, less likeable. It would seem that this would be the natural progression of things - 50+ strangers stranded on a island with lots of weird occurences. So much for the sweet romances and the clever one-liners...this is now going to be about a lack of trust and establishing alliances.

Completely agree. I think we are about to see a descent into semi-savagery. Its got to the point where the characters are really starting to show their personalities by making what I see as temporary alliances (e.g. Locke + Sayid on torture) and starting to think less in terms of a group but more in terms of doing things in their own way (Particularly Locke, Jack and Sawyer). IMO civilisation is starting to wear off for the Losties and we're gonna start to see people jockeying for power (Sawyer), action (Locke,Ana L) and revenge (Charlie).

[Sawyer'sChick]

Personally, I still believe this disconnect is ongoing and that it is not merely due to the constraints of presenting episodic drama in ways meant to maximize tension. I believe it is one of the driving subtexts of all the plotlines and explains many things. Like not even making any attempt to look for Cindy - or even have any concerns for her at all, beyond simply mentioning her loss.

It isn't meant to point out any supposed dichotomy between the flashbacks and the present day for any of the survivors. It's meant to point out the failings of their responses to present circumstances and situation.

I agree with you Chance... Why would they not be looking for Cindy, Michael, Walt... Like Sayid said... Why do they "forget" these basic things? Days and weeks can go by... and they spend more time rummaging around doing WHAT? Earlier in the series... Kate spent days looking off at the beach worried about where Sayid went, and whether he would return... normal "connected" behavior... we are all part of the same story. When someone is missing... there is a missing piece of the whole. It is normal to check it out.

I would like to Speculate that what the experiment of the island may be is that all lives intersect in some way - which leads us all to feel connected to each other. Therefore, even as strangers, we feel a part of the whole. I believe that is what Sayid meant when he said that he KNEW Gale was an "other" because he felt no guilt over how he brutalized him. No connection! "The others" are not part of the normal interconnectivity of life or they have removed themselves from it. Some of the losties are connected to each other, there are some who are not. I believe that is the reason we see connections in the Flash Backs... we can start mapping out where the intersections happened and why these intersections may matter in the big picture. The experiment is looking to figure out - why some are connected, and why some are not. Or... given certain stimuli, who will disconnect and who will stay connected.

I too believe that the straying from normal behavior is significant.

[Chance Gardener]

Yung, Sawyer was able to focus because his plan was self-centered.
One of the things that I led off this theory with was an interplay between Michael and Charlie back in Season 1.

Basically, one of the aspects of this disconnect is an increased "selfishness" in which the characters are only concerned about immediate desires. Hence, Sawyer and Charlie working together to screw over Jack and Locke for their own benefit.

Long term side effect? When the time comes to need the guns, either they'll be too far away to be of use when needed, or Zekeco will have taken them all from watching the camp and following Charlie/Sawyer where they hid them.

And LiW, no WE didn't decide this was a consequence of the way the story was being told by the writers. Unless by WE you meant the royal WE. You may be a royal, but you're not a royal in the way you think you are.

[raven444]

they have lost or are disconnected from doing even basic connections, whether it be of an interpersonal nature or of a logical/reasoning/planning nature....




Chance :)
how is Sawyer able to come up with such a perfectly linear plan with this theory ?

Charlie could even see the logic and the connecting dots in it all.

so how they have such focus ?


...know what else Sawyer has also been doing a lot?

Reading.

Lotta books lying around that hatch, and maybe for good reason. Just sayin'...

[LostInWilderness]

You're just slow. ;)

[darkhousecandle]

chance-i agree totally that this long term "shock" non-connected effect has not only been there from the beginning but is part of the whole. just when you think they are acting rational they go off on something totally different like 3 year olds. in the thread remembrance past... the whole subject of memory is brought in and it is interwoven as far as i'm concerned with the non-connected behavior.
an army is not readily an answer to my mind but protecting the group, sentries and/or guards has always seemed rational --- but sun goes off alone to her garden, even her huband only reacts after.

it has to be part of the story and obviously not a minor part since i think almost everyone has remarked on it and yet really nothing has changed.
1.jack who wanted an army reverts to doctor at the sight of blood
2.sawyer who everyone was starting to like reverted to con man and meanie
3. charlie was having a decent time with claire and aaron reverts to druggie even though he's not using anymore
4. locke who was always so calm on the island beats up charlie-something he wanted to do to anthony cooper
5. kate runs whether its physically or emotionally
6. hurley who did not want to be in charge of the food has his own stash
and is sayid truly the only person who has remembered?

[raven444]

forgetting could simply be a result of lack of sleep. REM stage sleep is a necessity in the consolidation of short-term memory into long-term memory. I'm not sure how well anyone would sleep on this island. Then there's the sleepwalking on Charlie's part. Or maybe it has to do with the VR-psychotherapy effects in that theory... I don't know. They should just find the damn psych station already.

[joepa15425]

Q: Castaways disconnect (aka Why aren't they doing XYZ?)
A: Bad Writing

When it's all said and done, it's still ABC TV--Not HBO!

[Son of Locke]

Haven't we decided that this disconnect is simply to move the plot forward?

As I said, LIW, thanks for getting me here. I think this thread could use a good kick in the ass to get it going, but I have to acknowledge that the theorists among us tend too easily to discount pragmatic issues that you, JoePa and others tend to raise.

---
Has there been a single comment about what books they'd like to see on the shelf? For example, "Hey Jack, I know there's a lot of Dostoyevsky here, but have you seen anything on edible tree frogs?" For that matter, why not look for a copy of Desmond's Island Diary or Why We Painted Quarantine on the Inside or Apollo Candy Bar Order Form or even Apple IIe Operating GUide, AKA How to Fix This Computer in Case Someone Shoots It???

If the disconnect moves the plot forward, (is this that obvious), it suggests that the way forward will be rather disconnected, does it not? Hasn't the coming group disconnection been foreshadowed by the initial separation of the plane, the books (TBK e.g.), the imminent "Locke problem," Jack hiding in the armory with Gale, and Jin's English line: "Everything is Going to Change"??

Would it make sense to speculate on the coming lines of division and what clues are already in place?

[Son of Locke]

RW'd 1-3. On the Disconnect issue "strange group dynamics," I saw more communicating and sharing of information in those first days than I can really recall since. Thought it interesting.

[athywithak]

I admit Maternity Leave focused on fewer characters and didn't show some ongoing plot concerns, but you would think at least Ana Lucia would argue for sentries after the attempted Sun-snatching, which the 815s are not supposed to know was really one of their own.

One of the old theories was something, perhaps lithium, in the water - both Claire's drugged behavior in her flashback and the theories in other threads about how spending time in the hatch (and drinking its water) increases the disconnect could support this.

[Chance Gardener]

Kathy, I still think there was enough shown/not shown to indicate that the disconnect effect is still ongoing. I am still of the opinion that this is a major plot driver that is woven into the storytelling and not merely the choppiness caused by poor writing or by the constraints of episodic storytelling on network TV.

For example, Locke arguing to Jack the possibility that The Wiz could be an Other (heh, another) and then to be so totally manipulated by balloon boy borders on the incredulous. Remember Sayid's words the week before: everyone seems to have forgotten what happened to Charlie, to Claire. Forgetting is one of the symptoms of the disconnect I believe.

There were discussions on environmental factors: lithium, viral/bacteriological, electromagnetic fields, distorted reality waves caused by Craphole Is. location within the Vile Vortices matrix. I'm still not certain of the cause of the disconnect but I do believe it is tied directly into the nature of the island, the mystery of the stobor(s), and the unexplained crashes of vessels.

[thoughtform]

I suppose that the disconnect that is affecting the crash survivors could be a result of a certain type of extrasensory manipulation being used by whomever is running things on the island.

We know that Dharma was using unconventional scientific methods in their research and experiments. What if they came up with a way to influence the subconscious mind of people. All it would take is someone with extrasensory abilities who could be directed to use their special talent to steer someones thoughts and intentions to what the controller intends for them. Someone like Walt may come in handy for that purpose. They may have invented a device that magnifies the special talent one has that would allow this kind of manipulation to be effective. Kind of like remote viewing, but the viewer would be able to directly influence the subject(s) that was being viewed. I guess it could even be possible to exert influence over mechanical things as well. Like a plane or a mobile scanning unit or maybe even the weather. and I think that if that type of thing were being used, it may be possible to effect a desired outcome in any place it was directed. Like the lives of these people before the crash. Maybe they were all being controlled by it before the plane crash.

just a thought.

[carmela]

At some level, the disconnect seems to be disassociation and inaction. They are no longer actively trying to get off the island. They are no longer looking for Michael or Walt.

And it is not so much that they have "forgotten" about the evils that have manifest themselves, they seem to have accepted them. They do not seem focused on solving problems, as Sayid stated. They are passive: Jack and Ana try to start an army and no one wants to join.

While I do believe that some of this is a plot device (it would very tiring to see them constantly in discussion), the element of dissaciation is too obvious to be dismissed. It will manifest itself into distrust among the characters and eventually a division.

To speculate on how this will happen...Locke and Jack will form the opposing sides. It will be critical to see where Sayid, Eko and Sawyer fall.

[thoughtform]

I was trying to come up with a reason for the disconnect we see. I really feel that it is an intentional manipulation of their subconscious by an unknown controller. I agree that there have been too many examples of behaviours that make no sense. I just wonder if it will be beneficial to the survivors in the long run, or if it is keeping them from benefitting.

[carmela]

I was trying to come up with a reason for the disconnect we see. I really feel that it is an intentional manipulation of their subconscious by an unknown controller. I agree that there have been too many examples of behaviours that make no sense. I just wonder if it will be beneficial to the survivors in the long run, or if it is keeping them from benefitting.

Interesting thought - is the disconnect beneficial to them, helping them to cope or is it harmful, not allowing them to escape.

[LostInWilderness]

I still think it can be explained by the unreality of it all and writing to drive plot. Surviving the unsurvivable plane crash, seeing a monster rip trees out of the ground, polar bears, whispers, the hatch, the Black Rock, etc. have left our already very warped lostaways unable to get their feet firmly planted in reality. This isn't PTSD, it's dealing with what in our world is impossible, an unreal situation no human has ever experienced - not the same thing at all.

Then the writers have to make them behave extra stupid sometimes to push the plot along.

[alliemum]

What if the "disconnect" and the references in the show to "forgetting" go back to something that happened during the crash? The oxygen masks did drop down, but we don't know whether or not the survivors were oxygen-deprived; apparently many of them lost consciousness indicating (maybe) that they weren't getting adequate oxygen. Short term memory loss, garbled or vivid recall of long-term memory, and even hallucinations or "voices" can all be symptoms of damage to the hippocampus.

[athywithak]

I have always hoped Chance is right, LiW, and there is an explanation for all the dumbass stuff they do and Don't Do. Happy to see you still have faith, Mr. G.

Lately I have begun to see hints (like the sudden flip flop between Jack and Locke's personas and stances in their brief conversation in Maternity Leave) that lead me to believe there IS groundwork for SOME overall big reveal coming up. The same groundwork that is leading to discussions about lack of curiosity (in exploring the medical bunker) and reversions to old personality traits (check the character forums if you don't know).

I believe in continuity errors but I also hope the changes in the mural will somehow come into play with all this...though I can't imagine how that would tie to the disconnect, other than that again they don't notice.

still hopeful, still waiting...

K

[athywithak]

and now Henry Gale comments on their lack of curiosity in The Whole Truth...

[sexy baby mama]

yeah, that was done in a cheesy way

[LostInWilderness]

I thought it was a nod to this thread, though I'm sure other sites have similar discussions.

[Chance Gardener]

still, Henry's point about the questions and even the ambush is quite valid.
Look at Sayid and Ana, blithely traipsing across the island with no apparent concern that the others - who Henry may be part of - are lying in wait for them.

Two people trained in tactics should also know you don't make a fire at night in hostile territory - didn't either of them see LOTR:Fellowship of the Ring???

And don't you think by now Jack and Locke should be thinking that maybe Henry is trying to mind play them against each other? Why aren't they considering that possibility?

Maybe they're disconnected...

[LostInWilderness]

I just loved the blank and stunned looks on their faces several times last night.

[kam_teach]

I've always felt that the problem is what Golding was portraying in Lord of the Flies. When man is taken from his natural element, where there is order and and a hierarchy of power, and then put into a situation where he is fighting for his very survival, a more primitive force takes over.

Thus, instead of all of the Losties (Tailies and Fronties alike) getting together and pooling their resources/information, they fight for position in the new order. Sawyer pirates and hoards the goods, Jack wants the decision-making power, Locke wants to be the provider, etc. If any one of them gives up what little power they have, they feel they have lost their status within the "pack".

[lacenaire]

I think I got the disconnection issue.
Each episode we see a character disconnect while he/she is having a flashback. Well, that must be happenning to all of them all the time.
It's just that we don't get all the POV at the same time. It would be too overwhelming I guess.

[athywithak]

I was responding to some discussions of Henry Gale in the "Ana and Henry" and "Prophets and Martyrs" threads when it began to sink in on me...see my above post re: I really think they are leading up to something with the disconnect -
Henry Gale knows more than he is letting on - he's not telling the Whole Truth - but he's not an Other, at least in how he defines that for himself. The problem is the losties aren't asking questions, or the right questions. Henry comments that they aren't curious about the hatch materials (cereal) and that they "Don't know a lot," implying he knows more (he's been there twice as long, so he should know more). Someone (Sayid?) asks why Ana got a map and she replies, "I asked nicely" - so what if Henry isn't giving out any info to the losties because they do not directly ask for it, and because he doesn't want his possession of more info to incriminate him in the eyes of his interrogators, torturers, captors. They keep asking him how he got there, when he got there, but they don't ask for details of his stay. Have they ever asked, "Have you seen other people on the island?"
I'm really hopeful they are going to tie the disconnect into the story via Henry.

edited to add punctuation for clarity

[volney]

I have posted elsewhere that I have thought there was something just 'not quite right' about the survivors. I couldn't put my finger on it but something just wasn't ringing true about it all.

No..not that they are all dead or have been taken over by aliens or anything like that..they just seem.. not normal in some way. They don't react to things the way people in the real world would have reacted or as they apparently would have were they in back in civilization. Reminds me of those beautiful people who lived above ground in "TheTime Machine'. Forgot what they were called. They lived in a paradise but they just...existed.

Maybe its that so called 'infection' taking hold.

When they got in the argument with Zeke about whose island it was, that struck me as odd vs. "Keep your frackin' island, we just want to get outta here!"

It seems to have taken them a fairly short amount of time to forget their former lives or give up on them and adapt to thinking of the island as home.

i think of when Sayid says to Charlie, "Have you forgotten?" And even he wasn't talking about the time before the crash.

-- volney

[Chance Gardener]

Been thinking last week's ep over in my head and I have decided that Bernard was raising the question this theory is trying to address. He senses that the lostaways are behaving in a not normal fashion.

It seems the disconnect is still in effect.

[kam_teach]

Maybe they're just portraying it like nobody wants to leave because the island has given them all something or fixed something, i.e. Rose's cancer, Locke's legs, Kate's escape from the law, Charlie's rehab, Hurley's chance to lose weight, Sun and Jin's reconcilliation, etc.

BTW, the underground dwellers were the Morlocks (the "Others"), and the above-ground dwellers were the Eloi (the Losties).

[LostInWilderness]

Been thinking last week's ep over in my head and I have decided that Bernard was raising the question this theory is trying to address. He senses that the lostaways are behaving in a not normal fashion. Without a doubt he was. I posted somewhere that I thought SOS was a nod to this thread.

Yet in the end we saw Bernard convinced all on his own to acquiesce for a cause he felt passionate about. The episode seemed a response to this thread (or probably others like it) to show that there's nothing external about it - it's just the way the characters are.

[athywithak]

:bump:

[Chance Gardener]

Resurrecting this due to Charlie's behavior and to the possible importance of the cable in light of the "draining" effect pushing the button has. I think the cable's importance, and the disconnect of a lack of curiousity about it, plus other things we've been shown in the Season 2 finale warrant this.

[Chance Gardener]

Not sure if this is a psychological theory or an island theory or a lostaways theory.

But some theorists contentions to the contrary, I believe this disconnect behavior is still in effect and is still driving the actions of the lostaways on Craphole Is. (and perhaps even Fenry's gang as well). I do not believe it is an effect caused by poor writing.

[jaystao]

You got me considering all that after the 'light' affect situation, now. Dazzler from the X-men comic books could make people go all calm and suggestive by creating various harmonic colour compositions in her light displays. Could be something in that. For me it wasn't just 'I-ching' that might be littered through out the island but also differing expressions of that - one of which happened to be the idea that 'colours' and 'light/shadow' conflicts on the island were affecting peoples judgements and percpetions somehow - one speculation of which was the idea that someone who was 'color' blind might not be affected in the same way as those who saw colour (thus infering that the idea of seeing colors would be important later on).

An interesting idea I remember from art history classes is the use of 'cairoscura (sp?)' to create perspective texture and definition in paintings/drawings. An understanding of this might come in handy.

* Just found out I got spell check on this thing (it didn't work in the old EZ forum so I just forgot about it - neat)...... doesn't work.....

[Chance Gardener]

ciarascuro

[NeillT006]

Naomi takes a knife in the back.

Jack is a doctor.

The poor girl remains there, face down in the dirt with the knife still in her back, while time is taken to tie Ben to tree, Kate wanders off to find John -- and returns, Jacks rings up some satellite minutes, he talks to the beach crew, the Losties all settle down in little groups, etc.

Then, Naomi leaves.

Was she resurrected by some aspect of the Island power? If so, why were its effects temporary? Or, is she still alive despite her performance with Kate?

Or, had Jack, inexplicably, not examined her?

N.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I think Jack is starting to forget he's a doctor. He's losing his identity and becoming someone else.

[yung23]

I thought Jack thought she was already dead.

(not that it stopped him from playing Dr. on dead rose and dead charlie)

[jaystao]

Yea, the makers better come up with a good excuse to explain alot of the 'fixations' on the island - once Jack new they were to be rescued he did what every other castaway had done since the landing - focused on something beyond everything else. He only focussed on Naomi when the rescue looked like it was to be jinxed somehow. I suppose he had alot on his mind but it was pretty lame none the less.

Whats the word on the disconnect? Anything in particular come to mind?

I still think that the island is filled with drugs (literally and in a very quasi strange naturally occuring sense). When people are in a state of disconnect, of imbalance they are more susceptible to it.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I thought Jack thought she was already dead.

(not that it stopped him from playing Dr. on dead rose and dead charlie)

Nothing generally stops Jack when he's in doctor mode. Naomi sure looked dead to me but then... Jack doesn't usually diagnose from a distance. But I don't remember him examining her, listening for breathing, taking the knife out of her back, or any of that. He immediately focused on Locke and that's not like him.

My point is whatever is happening took longer to affect Jack. He's usually so focused and "Jack-like" and that is starting to erode.

Yea, the makers better come up with a good excuse to explain alot of the 'fixations' on the island - once Jack new they were to be rescued he did what every other castaway had done since the landing - focused on something beyond everything else. He only focussed on Naomi when the rescue looked like it was to be jinxed somehow. I suppose he had alot on his mind but it was pretty lame none the less.

Whats the word on the disconnect? Anything in particular come to mind?

I still think that the island is filled with drugs (literally and in a very quasi strange naturally occuring sense). When people are in a state of disconnect, of imbalance they are more susceptible to it.

I think the magnestism is affecting them, but in a different way than it has always affected Walt. Birds flying into windows? They're disoriented, trying to get to him for some reason. Walt seemed to have been born with something so that made him special on the island. The castaways weren't, so they are all acting like stranded whales, or disoriented birds who have no idea which direction to fly or in what formation. It seems to be worse depending on where they are on the island.

[etta]

Or, had Jack, inexplicably, not examined her?

N.

In the Season 3 finale, Through the Looking Glass, Jack walks over and checks Naomi (looks like he is checking wrist/pulse). I will try to attach a screen cap.
It appears Jack thinks she's dead.

[NeillT006]

There you go ruining a perfectly good rant.

N.

[WheresTheMutt]

So this means there were probably no vital signs and Naomi was clinically dead. Somehow she was resurrected.

[Chance Gardener]

been meaning to dust this off and add the suicide on the boat to the pile of examples.

no one bothered to try to stop chain girl from taking the one way swim. No one seemed concerned about her dying; they were more concerned about the losties maybe joining her.

It seems the disconnect can reach out quite a ways from Craphole itself.

Another rather glaring example is the last ep, wherein Dani gets herself shot. All this time Dani has been the voice of doom regarding Ben and his motives. Tried to kill him because of it.

Yet suddenly, she takes his advice and agrees to go to a place he suggests! On the route he specifies!!

Truly not the behavior of a paranoid survivalist but the actions of one who became disconnected. Dani knows the island - she could (would) have taken another path to get to the temple. IF she would have gone there in the first place under normal circumstances. Somehow, she forgot her views about who/what Ben is and blithely walked off into the mists to be perfed like a newbie.

I am still convinced there is something to this disconnect behavior idea.

[jaystao]

Its quite simple - Dani (as you put it) is a robot. Part of the security system of the island. Ben is a master controller - he was basically using 'triggers' to get a reaction from her he desired - I'm actually quite serioius - theres something IN these people - something that literally gets into their minds and Ben knows how to munipulate it.

[lacenaire]

Truly not the behavior of a paranoid survivalist but the actions of one who became disconnected. Dani knows the island - she could (would) have taken another path to get to the temple. IF she would have gone there in the first place under normal circumstances. Somehow, she forgot her views about who/what Ben is and blithely walked off into the mists to be perfed like a newbie.

I am still convinced there is something to this disconnect behaviour idea.

Could mind programming ala Clockwork Orange in room 23 explain the disconnect?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Jays, why waste a good robot.... unless there is another?

[lacenaire]

What about her being a Maschinenmensch?

0Ffa3Qa4ah4

[jaystao]

Well maybe she's the terminator - different models. She's liquid metal, so "she'll be back". Now that would be cool - insane and silly but still cool. She definately has a Sarah Conner feel about her with all those rifles.

I met her at a comic con actually. Nice women. She liked my daughter and kept staring at her with this huge smile - I didn't quite get it at the time, but clicked a bit later.

[lacenaire]

4X02 Confirmed Dead


NAOMI: Can I ask you something?

CHARLIE PACE: Yeah.

NAOMI: Who are you people about to go to war with?

CHARLIE PACE: That's a long story. Want to ask me something else?

NAOMI: You having a laugh?

CHARLIE PACE: Of course not. I'd never disrespect a fellow Mancunian.

NAOMI: You're from Manchester, then?

CHARLIE PACE:I am. My band got its start at the night and day bar on Oldham street.

NAOMI: What band?

CHARLIE PACE:We were called Drive Shaft.

NAOMI: Yeah. Yeah, I know you.

CHARLIE PACE: We had our moment in the sun.

NAOMI: No, not that the crash. You're the dead rock star. They made a big deal out of you when they found the plane. Huge memorial service, new album.

CHARLIE PACE:There's a new album?

NAOMI: Yeah. God, it was everywhere. A "greatest hits" thing. Hey, look on the bright side. You're not really dead, right?

CHARLIE PACE: Yeah, right.
So... when they found the plane?

Wait! What!?
Charlie, dude, she just told you they found your plane!
How is that possible?!!
Will you ask her about it?!!

.

[clayseason1]

So... when they found the plane?

Wait! What!?
Charlie, dude, she just told you they found your plane!
How is that possible?!!
Will you ask her about it?!!
Naomi told Hurley about finding the plane when Hurley, Desmond, Charlie and Jin rescued her. Hurley told Desmond, Charlie and Jin what she had said -- so that is old news to Charlie at this point.

[lacenaire]

I know.
But he was talking to her, having a conversation then and the subject came up again. He completely ignored it. Why didn't he ask her, hey, "now that you mention it again, what's up with this "they found the plane". "How is it possible? I mean, we found the pilot in the cabin, somewhere deep into the jungle..."