+ Parallel Myths [Archive] - MyMedia-Forum.com

trinabobina

01-16-05, 11:04 PM

If you've been interested in mythology, you might already know this (and if this has been posted before, forgive me. send me somewhere else. teach me a lesson I'll never forget...):

There are generally eight different parallel myth genres shared between religions/mythologies. Interesting how they tie into Lost so well -- most of these are in the beginning stages, but they are what we want to know the most...

The Creation Theory -- this is the one we don't know, the one we want to know the most..."in the beginning..."
The Earliest times -- alluded to with "Adam and Eve" and Danielle, the others
The Flood Myths -- the tides, they are a'changin'
The Love Myths -- Kate and Sawyer, Kate and Jack, Sayid and Shannon, Boone and Shannon, Sun and Jin, Rose and hubby...
Morality Myths -- all back stories are dealing with moral decisions; moral quandries abound (see lies and lying liars)
Hero Myths -- um...Jack. reluctant hero anyone? Locke, the Theseus of the island? (btw, THAT would be an interesting myth to parallel...the minator/the monster. we're missing 7 sacraficial virgins, though...)...Locke will save us allJourney to the Underworld & the Path of Death -- the "hatch," Charlie's hanging, Jack's father
The End of The World myths -- could be with the plane crash, could be what's to come -- what they are moving toward

anyhoo...might be interesting to see how Lost falls into this.

my reference point is "Parallel Myths" by J.F. Bierlein

sawyerhasbestlines

01-16-05, 11:45 PM

I don't recall reading this on the threads before.

We've hinted at parts of them but not identified the way you did.

Drabauer should jump into this one.

azteclady

01-17-05, 01:07 AM

I believe there've been more than a few threads on literary archetypes - at least a couple of our younger posters did papers based on the show's characters.

You may want to check drabauer's wonderful LOST indexes to see what's been said already. In the meantime, I'm not locking this down, because I agree with sawyerhasbestlines in thinking that no one has yet put it this way.

Beto

trinabobina

01-17-05, 08:58 PM

I bump, therefore I am...

if there aren't any additional takers/observations on this, I will quietly leave it alone. It's not really a theory, just an observation on how the writers are creating a nice mythology to go along with the story.

If no other thoughts, I will bump no more...

kat

01-17-05, 09:41 PM

Don't forget Resurrection myths. Those are a central theme to most religions (and Lost).

trinabobina

01-17-05, 10:19 PM

Don't forget Resurrection myths. Those are a central theme to most religions (and Lost).

I would put those in the "journey to the underworld/passage of death myths"

and, -- you are absolutely right -- we are seeing characters being resurrected both physically and spiritually.

drabauer

01-25-05, 05:40 AM

Bushwoods had some wonderful observations on Greek myth parallels in the lit allusions thread, and I wanted to get your feedback on them:

I also see a very clear parallel between many of the characters on Lost and many of the characters from Greek Mythology. Jack and Kate would be the twins, Apollo and Artemis.... Sawyer would be the thief Hermes. Sayid, the god of war and technology, Ares. Shannon would be Aphrodite. Sun would be the motherly Vestia. Ethan would be Hades, Persephone (his wife, whom he abdcuted) would obviously be Claire. Hurley would be either Dionysus or Silenus

I don't think anyone's done such a comprehensive mapping before. Its eerie how well they correlate!

Apollo--healer as well as son of Zeus (Christian). Kate as Artemis/Diana: right on. Sayid, Shannon, Sun, Than, Claire, Hurley all fit.

Maybe Locke would be a Titan. Charlie could still be mortal Orpheus, or Pan perhaps.

trinabobina

01-25-05, 08:59 PM

Thanks for asking, Drabauer...I need to go back and read those older posts. But until then, allow me to ponder

Hmmm...I wouldn't consider Locke a Titan -- perhaps the Island is a Titan (the old world/old gods) and the castaways are the Olympians...

The monster(s)/the furies

and, I always saw Locke more as Tiresias, the seer (the blind man who could "see" into men's hearts, into the future)

Jack/Apollo-- The god of healing, and truth

Kate -- I'd see her as either Atremis (goddess of wildthings, protector of the young) or Athena (goddess of wisdom, agriculture, and she's fierce in battle)

Sun/Demeter: Demeter is the goddess of corn, grain, and the harvest; divinity of the earth.

Sawyer/Dionysis: is the god of the vine. He has a dual nature. On the one hand bringing joy and divine ecstasy. On the other brutal, unthinking, rage.

Sayid/Hephaestus: is the god of fire and the forge. He is the smith and armorer of the gods. He is a creator of implements.

Ethan might be a Hades -- ruler of the underworld, abducted Claire (Persephone), disinclined to allow people to leave, has a handy helmet that renders him invisable.

Charlie/Hermes -- He is the god of thieves and god of commerce. He is the guide for the dead to go to the underworld (think Claire's abduction). He invented the lyre, the pipes, the musical scale...Rock n roll!

Jin, Michael, Walter, Hurley...I'll have to root around a little...

Just about everything could fit in the Greek Myth format...

drabauer

01-25-05, 10:24 PM

Comments on trinabobina's character mapping:

Check on Jack/Apollo, Kate/Artemis, maybe Athena (only because Athena often switched sides, but was occasionally empathic!), and Sun/Demeter.

Sawyer/Dionysis: is the god of the vine. He has a dual nature. On the one hand bringing joy and divine ecstasy. On the other brutal, unthinking, rage.

I don't know--Sawyer's too much of a trickster character. He would be Hermes, in my book.

Sayid/Hephaestus: is the god of fire and the forge. He is the smith and armorer of the gods. He is a creator of implements.

Well I thought seeing him as Ares picked up on his military background, but yes--this captures who he is now.[/quote]

Ethan might be a Hades -- ruler of the underworld, abducted Claire (Persephone), disinclined to allow people to leave, has a handy helmet that renders him invisable.

I don't think we're going to get any argument on that one!

Charlie/Hermes -- He is the god of thieves and god of commerce. He is the guide for the dead to go to the underworld (think Claire's abduction). He invented the lyre, the pipes, the musical scale...Rock n roll!

Ahhh it's true Hermes invented the lyre and shepherd's pipe, but Athena built the aulos to capture the sound of the Gorgon Euralyes' cry. According to Donatella Restani, (Music & Anthropology No. 2, 1997),

there are some eighty such mythological characters connected with some kind of "mythical sound event" (Restani 1995). These events tend to gravitate around a few pivotal figures (like the Muses and Apollo) and the euretai, inventors of musical instruments: Athena (aulos), Hermes (lyra and syrinx), Pan (syrinx), Cybele (tympana), Tyrrhenian (salpinx). The events emphasize also two main themes. The first is the teaching, conservation, control and transmission of the mousike, [ed note: music in its broader sense] prohibitions and transgressions included; the second concerns the effects of sound on the performer and the audience, like, for instance, oblivion (Sirens), delight and sorrow (Phoemius and Demodox), bewitchment (Orpheus), calm (Achilles), attraction (Amphion), trance (Dionysus).

So I still like Charlie as Pan, but maybe Hermes.

And Locke may be Tiresias, but I don't recall Tiresias being very powerful at all--wasn't he a bit of a Cassandra-like figure? Also a transexual.

Jin fishes (relation to sea), Shannon = Aphrodite (and she did get together with Hephaestus), Michael as an artist I just can't for the life of me place (unless as a mortal such as Daedalus).

You know, Claire could be Danae as well.

Bushwoods

01-25-05, 11:06 PM

I feel Kate would be Artemis because of her duality. I found a quote in a text about Greek mythology that says "In her is shown most vividly the uncertainty between good and evil." I felt this described Kate to a t.

Charlie as Pan definitely makes some sense.

If Sayid were to be Hephaestus, then I believe that Locke could become Ares. But I think that he may actually be more similar to Athena (she invented the flute, his dog whistle) and was goddess of war. She was the one favored by Zeus (the island).

Also, Danielle Rousseau could be a Hera like character. Motherly, but deadly. Hera was known for hatred toward the illegitimate children of Zeus.

Here's another one, the monster is Cerebus, the guardian of Hades.

Sun as Demeter also makes sense. Maybe Rose (she has a wisdom about her) could be Vestia, goddess of the hearth.

trinabobina

01-25-05, 11:14 PM

drat it, drabauer! just when I think I could make a few offhand observations, you throw it all in my face! Curses!

Yes, I'll give on Sawyer being a trickster/Hermes...but damn, I think Sawyer is pretty lusty and would welcome a good bacchian get-together, don't you think? (Loki also comes to mind for Sawyer, but that's another pantheon to review...)

How about Jin as Ares (at least at first?) tempermental, unpopular, easy to anger, and wasn't he easily made jealous?

Yeah, Charlie as Pan -- I like that one.

And Locke may be Tiresias, but I don't recall Tiresias being very powerful at all--wasn't he a bit of a Cassandra-like figure? Also a transexual.

He was man, then woman, then man again. No, that doesn't fit the Locke we know and love. But, think on broader (so to speak) terms -- like transformation and insight. He had power in that people seeked him out for advice, whether they wanted to follow it (Odysseus) or not (Oedipus).

Okay, okay, it's a loose fit.
* * * *
When Claire had her dream, I thought of Cassandra and her curse to not be believed.

Hmmm. If Michael is Daedalus, would Walt be Icarus? That remains to be seen. I don't think that one is quite right.

more later --

clone11

01-25-05, 11:56 PM

I wrote something awhile back ...
(when I still got to be Sawyerhasbestlines- having trouble figuring out how to keep my name with ez-board)

Anyway, I thought at the time Hurley was Hermes. There were many parallels I got from an archtype book written by Jinette Paris. One of the things that blew my mind was that Hermes wrote a manifest for Hades. He kept a list of the dead.

I also think Kate is Artemis - and if Claire still is pregnant - I'll be curious to see who helps as midwife (an artemis job.)

Is Vestia the same as Hestia...goddess of the hearth?

Bushwoods

01-26-05, 12:00 AM

Yes Hestia = Vestia

I also originally thought of Hurley as Hermes because he always seemed to give the news to Jack about what was going on on the island. But when I read that Dionysus was also a traveller, I changed my mind.

drabauer

01-26-05, 03:58 AM

OK you guys, I am confused on some, but more certain on others:

Great catch on Kate=Artemis=duality between good and evil.
And yes Sawyer and Dionysus, but the trickster personality is uppermost.
Charlie=Pan, Sayid=Haphaestus, Sun=Demeter, Rose=Hestia, and I do like Jin as Ares: he's always starting a fight, and may have been a mob enforcer. Claire like Cassandra. Hurley could indeed be Hermes if we toss Sawyer to Dionysus (who found true love with Ariadne).

Locke as Tiresias still seems to menial. Danielle could be Tiresias, in that she "popped up" to warn Sayid, and may serve such a function again. I just feel that Locke has a larger purpose than simply one of advisor. Perhaps as Prometheus; the Titan who crossed the gods to help man (or maybe there is another Promethean aboard).

Danielle as Hera is one I didn't think of, but it would fit if we find out Robert was behind some of this. Of course if she lost "Alex" to Hades she becomes a vengeful Demeter, and we have to start all over again!

Wynter Zera

01-26-05, 02:14 PM

I've been at something similar on my Archetypes thread here (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=309.topic)

Bushwoods

01-26-05, 04:24 PM

Very interesting archetype thread. I just found this board a week ago and haven't been able to go back and look through old discussions. But it is very similar. I also like the idea of Jack and Kate being sibling-like characters. I've thought this from the beginning.

I agree with the poster that described different characters with their own archetype group, with each character as a hero. As more of the back-stories get revealed this will all become so much easier to analyze.

drabauer

01-26-05, 05:34 PM

Wynter--it's true that your thread has generated some great discussion. Personally I've always had a bit of a problem with the Campbell "Hero's Journey" schema, probably just because it was adopted by Disney 30 years ago and become a cookie-cutter mold for Hollywood features. I am more interested in the idiosyncracies of certain myth traditions.

That said, I think this thread serves a purpose in focusing on the Greeks and Romans. Although as trinabobina noted, we could do a lot with Norse myth: The Tree of wisdom, Loki, Thor et al.

clone11

01-30-05, 10:51 PM

bump

- Re: goddess memory: Mnemosyne. Read this and think about the hallucinations and amnesia in Lost. This is a quote from Pagen Grace by Ginette Paris.

"...Mnemosyne doesn't worry much about facts or dates, nor about their linear or causal sequence. Her goal is to evoke rather than describe. In this style of memory the factual and the symbolic, the historical and the mythical, "real" events and "imaginery" happenings are all tangled up inextricably. ..."

----------------
- and Danielle as Hecate? (older Artemis, 3rd phase of moon)

drabauer

01-30-05, 11:51 PM

Yes Mnemosyne.

Lest we not forget the places of myth like the river Lethe, which causes amnesia (maybe Claire and Charlie are the victims of a place, not a person?).

And what of the role of the children? Are they to be mediators between whatever passes for gods and men?

trinabobina

02-06-05, 08:31 PM

Hey -- just to help along our greek connections...an upcoming episode is titled Deux Ex Machina (nice little play on words) -- anyone feel like reviving this thread?

clone11

02-06-05, 08:47 PM

"Lest we not forget the places of myth like the river Lethe, which causes amnesia (maybe Claire and Charlie are the victims of a place, not a person?)."

Like Hanging Rock! (wink)

Glad this thread is back. I missed it.

Watched Seven Samarai's last night. Noticed Sawyer shared some qualities with one them.

trinabobina

02-06-05, 08:56 PM

another link -- someone in the literary index mentioned Locke's lady friend Helen (the face which launched a thousand ships) -- which is interesting in that Locke had never seen her face, and yet was inspired to take her to Australia.

drabauer

02-07-05, 09:19 AM

Hey seven samurai! I wouldn't be surprised if several Kurasawa flicks reflected favorably on Lost. I saw one years ago on PBS that was very long and slow but it reminds me of Lost: it was essentially Robinson Crusoe in Mongolia. A Japanese (or Chinese?) guy is stranded with only a native Mongolian fellow for company, who becomes his "man Friday." The formerly cosmopolitan protagonist has to become a Locke-like back to nature dude, and in so doing "discovers himself." Not one of the better known movies, but like Rashomon and Samurai, it resonates.

Bushwoods

02-13-05, 02:31 PM

I've continued to analyze characters and events on the island to find parallels to greek mythology and I've been pleasantly surprised at what we've seen.

Some new things to add:

I think that the voices in the trees could represent tree nymphs.
Sirens could have been calling the swimmer to them (the one who eventually drowned).
And lastly, we spoke about Sayid as Hephaestus. I think that he has been solidified in that role after his leg was punctured. In the descriptions of him, he is deformed and walks with a noticeable limp.

trinabobina

02-13-05, 03:26 PM

glad you revived this thread, bush...

after the most recent episode, I'm willing to put Charlie back in the Hermes' camp...he IS a thief (a lousy one at that), he is musical, he is a messenger (a lousy one, again) from the Others to the castaways, and he was involved in commerce (for a day, and then he vomited)...

drabauer

02-16-05, 05:01 AM

Yes . . REVIVE THREAD

Great call on Sayid->limp->Hephaestus
Charlie->Stealing, singing-> Hermes

Claude Levi Straus's magnum opus raw and the cooked included the famous outline of the Oedipus myth and its manifestation in many cultures. Limping was very high in his index of signifiers. This made me laugh out loud when I first say David' Lynch's Wild at Heart, as Lynch shoots a scene in a hotel with four limp men (there was also one episode of Twin Peaks in which the Black Lodge was attended solely by limping men). In other words, a lame character almost always signals a mythical connection.

We should list the other infirmities or physical characteristics/anomalies that stand out!

trinabobina

02-16-05, 11:10 AM

and perhaps we should list characters' (potentially) fatal flaws -- all great Greek plays & heros had fatal flaws. For Oedipus, it was his anger.

I'll help contribute after work today...

We should list the other infirmities or physical characteristics/anomalies that stand out!

--wonder if anyone has a third nipple...

drabauer

02-16-05, 08:27 PM

Sounds great Trina! I will keep my eyes out as well; we will certainly see something tonight.

sawyerhasbestlines

02-16-05, 09:06 PM

quote
"--wonder if anyone has a third nipple.."

I think I might have a triple nipple, oh no it's just a mole.

----------------------

I'm going to check a book I have regarding the LAME topic. I think James Hillman writes about that under the topic of "Christ's wounds" and the greek characters that file under that archetype.

sawyerhasbestlines

02-16-05, 09:18 PM

Subject:
Hurley calling Ethan, "Lance"

Lance definition from a book of symbols:
(CHECK this out, pretty interesting)

"A symbol of war, and also a phallic symbol. It is a weapon, of earthly character, in contrast to the celestial implications of the sword. It is connected with the symbolism of the cup or chalice. Generally speaking, the lance is comparable from the symbological point of view with the branch, the tree, the cross, and all symbols pertaining to the valley-mountain access. ..."

sawyerhasbestlines

02-16-05, 09:45 PM

Below, are an ongoing addition to the "lame" topic from "Wounds as Archetypes" from a James Hillman book, Blue Fire:

General subject: Wounds as archetypes

1. - sub subject: sickness as archetype:
(possible reference to Danielle's sickness or the monster)

- "THANATOS, a sickness daimon, devil or shadow, who carries the evil so that the others may remain supremely ideal."

2. "Wound and the Eye are one in the same"
(possible reference to Locke's prior inability not to walk and all the eyeball scenes)

" The soul sees by means of affliction. .... The wound and the eye are one in the same. From psyche's viewpoint - pathology and insight are not opposites - as if we hurt because we have no insight and when we gain insight we shall no longer hurt. No. Pathologizing itself, is a way of seeing; the eye of the complex gives the peculiar twist called, "psychological insight."

trinabobina

02-16-05, 09:51 PM

"THANATOS, a sickness daimon, devil or shadow, who carries the evil so that the others may remain supremely ideal."

So you're suggesting that Danielle is taking on the sicknesses of the others? I'm not sure I follow you.

sawyerhasbestlines

02-16-05, 10:09 PM

No, it's not literal. These are archetypes, sickness projected which are not literal.

Danielle says there is a sickness on the island. Sickness itself, in archetypal psychology is it's own archetype. If the island is "anima mundi" it is nature alive, the island with soul, then Sickness functions as scapegoat so "that the others may remain supremely ideal."

Or perhaps the monster is a projection of everyone's inner shadow aspects, thus another provision as scapegoat so the "others may remain supremely ideal."

If the sickness or the monster (or Ethan for that matter) is responsible for the deaths, or illnesses, than nobody has to be accountable. It's the same logic Jack uses and still holds onto as to why Sawyer got bamboos shoved up his fingernails - which allows Jack to hold onto his ideal of himself as hero. This paragraph is my take on it.

sawyerhasbestlines

02-16-05, 11:02 PM

More James Hillman below from book, Puer Papers.

Topic: LAMING MOTIF - may connect to Lost.

"Mythological figure of young Gods and Heroes often show laming, crippling, bleeding, and sometimes castration. Puer wounds always occur in specific images, in specific stories... to specific body parts. For example: Archille's heel, Pelops' shoulder. "

- Oedipus (swellfoot), Hercules (the crab at Lerna), Alexander the Great (wounded in the ankle), Ulysses leg, Jason's single sandle, Bellerophon who limps, - all these are marked by the foot.

- Hermes winged feet is the reverse of the wounded foot.

- The boy Ulysses is wounded while he is with his grandfather by his "parental" boar.

- The wound in reverse, or the wounded parent is shown by Aeneas who totes his lame father on his back, and by Perseus who with a discus, accidentally wounds his grandfather Akrisos in the foot.

"If the deeper implication of laming is the verticality of spirit, we may expect to find images of laming as an advantage or achievement... (one leg dance of the shaman, distortion representing supernatural power).

- Jason's absent sandal meant he was pledged (with one foot - left) to the underworld. (an achievement he did not like)

- Mopsos (THINK WALT HERE PEOPLE) the prophet, who's "special skill" in divination was concerned with birds. He could "understand their language" was snake bitten in the left foot. Note, lots of prophets have marked feet. (Q. Will Walt meet a snake?)

drabauer

02-16-05, 11:40 PM

Thanks SHTBL!

The ghost of Christian Shepherd as 'marked' feet.

Sayid is a prophet in the sense of one who warns: he told the others about Danielle, and suggested there were others. Will the injury give him greater power?

Locke's pre-crash injury gave him time to read, study his environment and imagine; in that sense it also gave him the power of a prophet, in the sense of truth-teller, shaman.

sawyerhasbestlines

02-17-05, 04:41 PM

Adding this tarot stuff: I put it in another thread, but thought it should be here.

The tarot is the story of the fool's journey. When he starts off, he is naive and steps out (off a cliff) into the great unknown. By the end of the story the fool is wise as he comes full circle.

I think the first character the fool encounters is the Magician. Once he's mastered this phase, he moves on to others.

If Locke is the magician (major arcana) that all the fools seem to encounter (Jack discovering water), (Boone with his sister's death vision), (Charlie's drug problem), (Sawyer and the Boar), etc. then that means they will proceed to other things; ie the Hangman. Neil, I agree with this on you. The hangman is all about having to make a choice. One gets paralized till they can make a decision. Charlie had amnesia a bit but then decided to kill Ethan, a very big choice.

---------
Recent edit on Locke:

I see him as one of 2 figures in the tarot: The Hierphant, or The Magician. The hierphant's job was to teach all the young heroes before they became leaders. The magician's job is to guide the heroes no matter how lost or confused they are.

"The magician does not come when he is called, he is a wily and playful god, and does not always respond to what we think is an important situation. He has his own ideas of what might be important. He comes in the night, often in the form of disturbing dreams (Claire) or in the guise of a meeting with another person who turns out to be somehow significant as a catalyst on the journey... Magician is the inner guide, spirtual guide and protector of the fool."

---------------

Claire is identicle looking to The Empress on my tarot pack, representing "fertility, growth and SOMETHING NEW".

Black and white is a prominent symbol in the tarot. It's in the chariot card. The driver of the chariot has two strong horses pulling/driving him in different directions, one black, and one white. The driver requires a lot of strength to hold the tension between the two. I think have seen some of them wrestling with this already in various ways.

The High Priestess carries the b & w motif, as does Judgement.

The Sun is a card in the major arcana, and also one of the names of the characters.

My take on Danielle is she is like major arcana: The Moon, or Hecate. The moon goddess became one of the underworld (she lives underground) rulers who sent demons to torment men through their dreams. Hecate is associated with child birth. She also has the power to bestow or withold to mortals any desired gift. (perhaps Locke's ability to walk) Her companions in the underworld are The 3 Erinyes or The Furies (think of the bird/monster), the 3 Moiraye or Fates.

Cerberus is Hecate's animal and spirit form who lives at the crossroads, tombs, and scenes of crimes.

trinabobina

02-18-05, 10:40 PM

SHTBL -- cool tarot readings...I don't know much about that; though it's something I've always considered trying.

Okay -- Jack's father's Sox philosophy got me thinking about the Greek fatalistic attitute toward death. Are all of you familiar with the Fates? There were three of them called the Moirai. We've got:
Clotho, the spinner
Lachesis, the drawer of lots,
Atropos, the inevitable end to life

The Fates handled the threads of human life. One of these threads was allocated to every person, and each goddess took her turn in manipulating this thread. Clotho selected the thread, Lachesis measured it, and Atropos cut this thread to signify the end of a person's existence.

We keep on hearing about destiny, fate, change and redemption. Perhaps the camp will split into those who are fatalistic/destiny driven (Locke, Sawyer) vs those who believe in change/redemption (I'm thinking of Michael, who built the raft to change his fate, Sayid)

sawyerhasbestlines

03-20-05, 04:26 PM

Bump for doc

drabauer

03-21-05, 03:08 AM

THANK YOU SAWYER HAS THE BEST LINES!

Has anybody noticed that the search function on this board is worth S@W#?

sawyerhasbestlines

04-08-05, 02:05 AM

After last night's baby delivery, we can beat the Kate=Artemis dead horse some more.

Artemis, was not only a skilled huntress, she was the goddess who resided over births. (think midwife)

thoughtform

04-08-05, 02:12 AM

I think you can put all of the castaways into many different cultural mythologies because we are definately talking about the classic struggle of good vs. evil, yin/yang, black/white duality. I think that each castaway is going to have to "realise" what is their true nature. Whether it will be for the forces of chaos or the forces of cosmos.

lacenaire

04-08-05, 02:25 AM

Yeah drabauer, I noticed and got smacked on the head for advicing people to use it :\

drabauer

04-08-05, 05:23 AM

Hence, lacenaire, my beginning the index which has taken over my life ....

bumping for myth lovers everywhere!

Calling SHBL, Boonian, Spooky, Jay, LiW, azteclady, and all other well-read types ;)

LostInWilderness

06-25-05, 10:28 PM

Remember when we didn't know much about the show? How do these myths fit now that the season is over?

drabauer

07-01-05, 01:39 AM

drabauer

10-10-05, 11:36 PM

It's back!!!!

trinabobina

10-11-05, 12:27 AM

Oh thank you drabauer...btw, read your quote in USA today -- you're famous so that makes us almost famous by proxy...

just some thoughts floating around...

Locke as Theseus -- or at least, he sees himself as Theseus, with the "monster" as the minotar and the hatch as the labyrinth. He does not want to destroy (as theseus), but to understand and connect.

Helen as Ariadne?

Mechanical monster/smokey/shark as Cerebus?

Jack as Orpheus rescuing Kate as Eurydice?
Or, Jack as Aeneas, who later finds his father in the underworld, where they drink from the waters of forgetfulness (Lethe)

Desmond as Charon?

Desmond as Hercules who tricks Atlas (Jack) into holding the weight of the world (pushing the button)

On the Sophoclean concept of tragic flaws -- I find it interesting that Locke's apparent tragic flaw is his faith, while Jack's tragic flaw is his confidence in science

drabauer

10-11-05, 06:01 AM

I like Desmond as Hercules tricking Atlas; after all, Hercules did have his labors, an analogue methinks to sailing/racing around the world.

But I take issue that Jack's tragic flaw is un unshakeable belief in science. That was the supposed crux of ep 1, but to me his tragic flaw throughout ep 1 was his unmet need for paternal approval and resulting self-doubt. As Locke never got over his shame at being abused his own the god-like father figure, so Jack never individuated from his distant and haughty dad. As sons of abusive parents they play out the roles of Theseus and Hercules, one the son of an absent God the other the son of a foreign king.

maxironchin

10-11-05, 10:04 PM

A combination of the Alvar Hanso discussions, the Swan emblem on the Dharma symbol, as well as a number of other treatises have prompted me to post this.

I’ve long been a fan of Norse and Greek mythology. Many of us were introduced to these stories and ideas during our childhood and they form perhaps some of our fondest memories from our early years. The ideas are there for adults as well. In recent times, Stargate has loosely used the Norse Asgard and Thor mythologies as part of its symbols and themes (maybe other references too – I haven’t watched all episodes).

In the 12th Century, a German book was written “The Nibelungenlied” which had its roots in various other ancient mythologies, including Norse, Dutch and English (Beowulf). In the 19th Century, Wagner took the German story and turned it into a classic and lengthy 4-part opera “The Ring of the Nibelung”.

Hitler was, I understand, a great fan of Wagner and his operas. If there are any historians out there, perhaps they can tell us how much Hitler was inspired or driven by the stories. It might be relevant…

I’m mentioning ALL these points for a reason, not just to reminisce. Alvar Hanso is one of the super-rich, able to fund all these massive projects with apparent ease. He’s achieved all that he needs to in any normal person’s dream. But what if he is still fired-up to do more? What if he wants to achieve the impossible - to create a World that resembles the dreams that have been with him from childhood? Here is Alvar Hanso’s island that will provide the reality for such dreams. I don’t believe he created the island – it’s something he discovered and he is making use of it.

How does all this tie-in with what we’ve seen? Well, we have our first Dharma symbol – the Swan. That’s important in Norse mythology. In the myths, there are creatures called “Swan-Maidens”, perhaps better known as “Valkyries” (The “Ride of the Valkyries” music is well-known from the Wagner opera and was used so dramatically in Coppola’s movie Apocalypse Now.)

Here a quote that explains the Valkyries better than I can…

The Valkyries ("Choosers of the Slain" ) are beautiful young women, mounted upon winged horses and armed with helmets and spears. Odin needs many brave warriors for the oncoming battle of Ragnarok, and the Valkyries scout the battlefields to choose the bravest of those who have been slain. They escort these heroes, called the Einherjar to Valhalla, Odin's hall.

Valhalla, Hall of the Slain, in Norse mythology is the hall presided over by Odin. This vast hall has five hundred and forty doors. The rafters are spears, the hall is roofed with shields and breast-plates litter the benches. A wolf guards the western door and an eagle hovers over it. It is here that the Valkyries, Odin's messengers and spirits of war, bring half of the heroes that died on the battle fields (the rest go to Freya's hall Folkvang). These heroes, the Einherjar, are prepared in Valhalla for the oncoming battle of Ragnarok. When the battle commences, eight hundred warriors will march shoulder to shoulder out of each door.

Ragnarok ("Doom of the Gods" ), also called Gotterdammerung, means the end of the cosmos in Norse mythology. It will be preceded by Fimbulvetr, the winter of winters. Three such winters will follow each other with no summers in between. Conflicts and feuds will break out, even between families, and all morality will disappear. This is the beginning of the end.

(Thanks to MMV Encyclopedia Mythica. I included a couple of other explanations for clarity.)

From my own memory (and a quick Google), the Valkyries are alternatively called Swan-Maidens as they take the form of both a woman and a swan. If a man was lucky enough, he might capture a Swan-Maiden’s heart and make her his wife. In so doing, she would lose her swan’s feathers and become purely a woman. But the man would need to beware – if displeased, she could take back her feathers and leave him.

Remember Locke saying last series “I’ve seen into the eye of the island and it’s… beautiful”. Perhaps the Valkyries, with their great beauty, are what Alvar created or discovered and are in turn what Locke saw. The Valkyries of the mythology are not themselves killers, hence Locke did not die. More importantly, Locke was captivated by what he saw, entranced even. I’ve wondered all along what could be so beautiful to capture Locke in this way. What could be so beautiful? Only something with a woman’s form could entrance a man (10% of men possibly excepted). Only something with a woman’s form could be called “the most beautiful thing I’ve ever seen” by both men and women alike – as the women may describe it later on when they see it.

As for Ragnarok (see above definition) – this would mean the end of the Gods. In Lost's terms, this means no more Alvar Hanso and maybe no more island. As I’ve said elsewhere, they need to have the courage NOT to push that button. That could begin the great events that are - or lead to - Ragnarok.

I’m sure there must be more that’s relevant from Norse mythology. If I’m right about the swan reference, then perhaps the symbols for the other stations on the island are to be found in these ancient stories...

Max.

drabauer

10-11-05, 11:21 PM

I'm sooo happy that max introduced us to the Norse side of things; trina and I made a stab at it last year, but with Alvar on the scene, there is an obvious reason to introduce the Northern canon.

The swan maiden myth is perhaps most widely known in its Russian form, the source of course for the great ballet Swan Lake by Tchaikovsky.

http://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~tales/images/vrubel_swan.jpg
Swan Princess (1900), Mikhail Vrubel' (1856-1910)

Other popular tales include that of swans who stole children (http://www.sunbirds.com/lacquer/readings/1099) as well as Geese. (http://russian-crafts.com/tales/geese.html)

Here are some great sites for further research:

Norse mythology (http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/mythology.html)

Encyclopedia of Norse myth (http://todd.reimer.com/norse/myth.html)

Greek vs. Norse myth (http://webhome.idirect.com/~donlong/)

boonian androphile

10-12-05, 12:23 AM

cool stuff max on the northern myths. that's exciting really. and if we need a greek full circle zeus in the form of a swan mated with leda whose offspring was none other than helen, who has earned a couple of name references this season and last. bad bad zeus. evil wicked naughty zeus. I wonder who will whisk helen away from locke and take her in a ship to---paris? or in a mustang to paris texas? or in a bonneville to troy new york?

drabauer

10-12-05, 02:46 PM

*smacks palm on forehead*

Thank you boonian! I knew there was a reason we had a Helen. Perhaps this is all about the Illiad after all. Who, then, is Locke -- Paris or Menelaus?

trinabobina

10-12-05, 07:37 PM

Max -- thanks for bringing the Norse into the fold. We long thought of Saywer as Loki, the trickster. The legend of Balder would fit nicely into SHTBL's wound mythology, the Norse views of fate certainly fit in here as well.

Parallel myths are compelling because almost ALL culture's mythologies fall into line with the eight basic story lines. Any good drama will, as well. Lost manages to incorporate (intentionally or not) so many pantheons into it's own mythology, it gives us fodder for a long, long time. That's why I like to take a break from all of the hard-core scientific theories and focus on the theory of mythology.

Love the connection between the Swan and Zeus...the Hansa collective certainly has some sort of a god complex (pun intended), and they are commiting a rape of these people's psyches.

Psyche, by the way, is the personification of the human soul in Greek mythology.

The whole Apollo candy bar symbolism has been beaten to death, but we should mention it here because, well, it's Apollo.

And I agree -- SO many elements of the Illiad (and the Odyssey) are present here in Lost. The entire island is one Odyssian adventure after another... The others are seemingly Laestygonian in their behavior. Danielle is like Circe, the hatch has served as a Siren (and the numbers are a Siren as well), with Jack trying to resist its call...we even have the faithful dog, Argos in Vincent.

Drabauer -- I agree on the tragic flaws...Flaws are only tragic in the Shakespearian sense of the word if great men meet their downfall as a result of their flaws. I believe either Jack or Locke will fall (die)-- but not both.

trinabobina

10-12-05, 08:04 PM

Oh, and I just thought of a parallel in Norse mythology. Do any of you know the myth of Fenris? He was a wolf that grew larger than the gods knew how to handle (think the "monster") -- our scientists created the security system which has gone out of control. In the Norse myth, Tyr is assigned the job to feed and take care of Fenris (now think person in hatch who is the caretaker). The gods created a series of chains and attached them to Fenris. He broke through them all until the bond Gelgia was put on him -- (the "monster" with a chain pulling Locke into the ground). Meanwhile, Tyr loses his arm to Fenris -- Tyr is the god of of duty; it was his duty to make the sacrifice for the greater good -- again, think Desmond and the series of caretakers. Finally, when Fenris finally breaks free of his binding, Ragnorok will commence.

drabauer

10-12-05, 09:43 PM

Very cool trina! I knew about Fenris, but not Tyra and the lost limb!

Isn't there a whole series of events that lead to Ragnarok? If I recall, Fenris escaping was but one of them. Balder's death was in there, and a few more items foreseen by the Norns (?)

trinabobina

10-12-05, 09:57 PM

another interesting tidbit in the Fenris myth... the dwarves created a silken thread they SAID Fenris couldn't break, which made him think he shouldn't try --

I'll have to read up on the Ragnarok -- I don't recall all of the events that lead up to the event. It's represented by a snake biting its tail, and when it lets go, it's another sign.

Here's a link to more details.
Ragnarok (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/ragnarok.html)ything

drabauer

10-12-05, 11:40 PM

It's represented by a snake biting its tail,

An ourobourus?

trinabobina

10-13-05, 07:22 PM

Jormungand is the name of the snake, which holds all of mankind in its coils.

http://re2.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/383895738

trinabobina

10-18-05, 12:02 AM

Bumping, as it makes a good companion to Wynter's 6 constellations thread

lacenaire

12-02-05, 10:51 AM

Analogies for Kate:

Rousseau, War or discord on Horseback (1894)

This is also the iconography of the Goddess Astarté (Ishtar, Aphrodite, Venus).

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2955/rousseauwar9xc.jpg

Aphrodite also rides birds, like swans

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/5396/aphroditeridesswan3ql.gif

Agent of Dharma

12-13-05, 04:15 PM

Much has been written on the mythological references in Lost. Is it possible to work towards a global theory?

I completely buy the connection others have made between the six constellations of Apollo and the numbers/stations (swan=cygnus, arrow=sagitta, Apollo=sun/108, etc.).

The Dharma symbols, however, are encircled by the I Ching, or some variant of it. Thus we have Greek mythology and Asian mysticism intertwined. West meets East.

Now TPTB have thrown in references to ancient near east mythologies (Gilgamesh/Enkidu) in the same episode that they draw our attention the biblical tales, through Eko.

The layering is getting thick and seems to be pointing towards some unified theory. The only connection I can make at the moment is that each of these belief systems (not sure about the Asian, however) tells the story of a GREAT FLOOD that wiped out a civilization...

hmmm...

sawyerhasbestlines

03-30-06, 03:45 PM

Valhalla, Hall of the Slain, in Norse mythology is the hall presided over by Odin. This vast hall has five hundred and forty doors. The rafters are spears, the hall is roofed with shields and breast-plates litter the benches. A wolf guards the western door and an eagle hovers over it. It is here that the Valkyries, Odin's messengers and spirits of war, bring half of the heroes that died on the battle fields (the rest go to Freya's hall Folkvang). These heroes, the Einherjar, are prepared in Valhalla for the oncoming battle of Ragnarok. When the battle commences, eight hundred warriors will march shoulder to shoulder out of each door.

Well, that about sums things up. We've got wolfs and swans, halls with hundred and 40 doors, spirits messengers and heroes.

:bump:

camelsmoker

05-28-06, 07:12 AM

:bump:

Bumping this thread for end-of-season 2 comparisons. We have some more apparent Iliad references... Penelope and Odysseus (Desmond).

lacenaire compared Danielle to Cassandra, and I think he's on to something. Fenry is the Trojan Horse? Not sure about this, as it was Odysseus who had ordered the horse to be built.

trinabobina

05-29-06, 08:19 PM

Well, other threads have jumped on some of the mythology train, but here's some observations that could be put here...

From the Odyssey --
Compare the Lotus eaters (after three days they lost all desire to return to their home) to the episode where it became very apparent that most of the Losties, if not all, want to stay on the island.

Odysseus in disguise in his own home to observe the suitors of Penelope compared to Fenry in the hatch and the bloodshed that follows.

(mentioned before: Circe turning men into swine parallels Sawyer's battle of wits with the hog)

Penelope in Greek (thanks, wiki!) is usually understood to be a combination of the Greek word for "web" or "woof" (πηνη) and the word for "face" (ωψ), very appropriate for a weaver of cunning whose motivation is hard to decipher. Also, "faithfulness" is associated with her name.

Strange cgi green bird of prey as an omen of doom -- When Telemachus doesn't want his mom (Penelope) to marry again, good 'ol Zeus sends two eagles who proceed to tear each other apart (symbolizing how they will soon be attacking each other over Penelope).

Frecklestoo

05-29-06, 08:32 PM

OK, I don't know much about mythology, but these are interesting ideas. There is definitely a "spiritual" element to this show. I think Lost is telling more of a spiritual/fate/destiny story than a sci-fi experimental one. I know mythology has a lot of parallels to religion. I find it odd that all these people with past connections in their pre-crash lives would happen to get on the same plane at the same time in the same place because some dude somewhere orchestrated it that way. It's more likely that "fate" put them there and that there is a higher purpose to this island.

Just my 2 cents...:)

jmb3rg3r

05-29-06, 08:33 PM

Penelope had 108 suitors.....

trinabobina

05-29-06, 08:33 PM

To continue with the theme of this thread...please add on to the categories!

The Creation Theory -- geological anomalies and electromagnetic forces
The Earliest times -- orientation films, Mr. FourToes, the crash
The Flood Myths --
The Love Myths -- Bernard finds his Rose, Penelope and Desmond, Sun and Jin reunited and babyfied, Sawyer and AL get sumpin sumpin.
Morality Myths -- looking for the "good" people, Hurley and the food, Kate and her "father"...well, EACH episode deals with moral dilemas
Hero Myths -- Eko steps up to the plate, Charlie's misguided attempt to save the baby
Journey to the Underworld & the Path of Death -- the Psychic's daughter, Sawyer's brush with death, Christian's downward spiral
The End of The World myths -- three minutes and the button/possible destruction/have to start all over

jmb3rg3r

05-29-06, 08:36 PM

Revelatory or Gnostic Myths: These are myths in which the hero receives revealed knowledge regarding the cosmos and its rules, from God or the Gods. This would include Moses, Mohammed, the serpent in the Garden, and Prometheus/Coyote. (Apologies in advance to anyone who believes in any of these things and objects to them being called "myth.")

Locke and Eko, anyone?

trinabobina

05-31-06, 08:56 PM

A few thoughts on the importance of myth...

I do think that the appearance of the four-toed statue will redirect our attention to the mythology of the island next season. The greatest Greek and Roman gods had statues in their honor -- perhaps the earliest inhabitants of the island had their own unique mythology and had paid tribute to their gods with statues.

According to JF Beirlein, a myth is often something that only begins to work where our own five senses end. It is the ancestor of science. It attempts to explain how and why things happen -- it is a history of prehistory. It is the thread that holds the past, present, and future together.

It is imparative that the PTB create a mythology for this island and continue to weave it through the storylines -- it will give the seasons it's continuity and fill in the blanks that science or even pseudo science can't explain.

(interesting side note... "the powers that be" was a commonly used phrase to describe a monotheistic deity...TPTB is Lost's god)

Jumping into another side note -- thieromorphism is the depiction of god in animal form (think Apis the bull or Hathor the cow in Egyption mythology). What if Kate's horse was this "god"? or Sawyer's frog? Hurley's birdie? Even Vincent is a possibility. Do any of you recall the discussions on Vincent as a familiar (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2072&highlight=familiar)? Good times, good times.

I know a lot of posters to this board prefer to delve into the scientific possibilities of Lost (much to treemonster (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21121)'s dismay), but I think it's important to not forget the mythological implications. Even the creators of Lost have recently discussed their profound rediscovery of faith and it's connection to the show.

drabauer

06-08-06, 03:05 PM

This thread must be bumped - the creators have said that next season will delve into the history/mythology of the island, and those speculations deserve to be in trina's thread.

So say we all.

LPU

06-08-06, 03:23 PM

Jumping into another side note -- thieromorphism is the depiction of god in animal form (think Apis the bull or Hathor the cow in Egyption mythology). What if Kate's horse was this "god"? or Sawyer's frog? Hurley's birdie? Even Vincent is a possibility. Do any of you recall the discussions on Vincent as a familiar (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2072&highlight=familiar)? Good times, good times.

Could smokey fall into the animal category? As TPTB stated...

That there was a good chance we had seen the monster the second half of S2 and didn't realize it.

A possible Fenry connection here?

clayseason1

06-09-06, 12:14 AM

LiW, I think that boonian is right on the direction the show may take post-Exodus. That is, expect myths of the underworld--and on how that world relates to the one above ground--to take center stage in season 2. I don't have much to offer however on which myths might be referenced, or what form they might take. I still think we might have a Ceres/Demeter and Persephone story play out with whatever had been locked underground. Perhaps it is allowed out "half" of the time as the monster and/or black wispy substance, or maybe there is someone (Alex) under thrall to the others.
I have always thought that a balance struggle between light and dark forces is at the heart of LOST.
In my theory A Wrinkle in Time (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7474), I speculated that flight 815 crashed on the autumn equinox 9/23/2004. (I knew the actual equinox for that year was on 9/22/2004 but fool that I was - I chose the 23rd because it was one of the numbers.) Anyway, I think that it is relevant that the actual crash did occur on the autumnal equinox 9/22/2004. This is a time when we experience equal days and equal nights or a balance between light and dark - part of the earth cycle - as is the following myth:

Persephone is the goddess of the underworld in Greek mythology. She is the daughter of Zeus and Demeter, goddess of the harvest. Persephone was such a beautiful young woman that everyone loved her, even Hades wanted her for himself. One day, when she was collecting flowers on the plain of Enna, the earth suddenly opened and Hades rose up from the gap and abducted her. None but Zeus, and the all-seeing sun, Helios, had noticed it.

Broken-hearted, Demeter wandered the earth, looking for her daughter until Helios revealed what had happened. Demeter was so angry that she withdrew herself in loneliness, and the earth ceased to be fertile. Knowing this could not continue much longer, Zeus sent Hermes down to Hades to make him release Persephone. Hades grudgingly agreed, but before she went back he gave Persephone a pomegranate (or the seeds of a pomegranate, according to some sources). When she later ate of it, it bound her to underworld forever and she had to stay there one-third of the year. The other months she stayed with her mother. When Persephone was in Hades, Demeter refused to let anything grow and winter began. This myth is a symbol of the budding and dying of nature. In the Eleusinian mysteries, this happening was celebrated in honor of Demeter and Persephone, who was known in this cult as Kore.

The Romans called her Proserpine.

Her names means something like "she who destroys the light."
Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/persephone.html)

Besides the Greek mythological parallel for the earth cycle, I think we could liken Danielle to Demeter and her kidnapped daughter, Alex to Persephone.

trinabobina

06-09-06, 12:18 AM

This thread must be bumped - the creators have said that next season will delve into the history/mythology of the island, and those speculations deserve to be in trina's thread.

Amy, could you post a link to this comment? I'd be interested in reading the article.

LPU -- That's what I'm thinking. I propose (as many have) Smokey can take different animal forms, and the ancient ones perhaps saw him as an animal (or animals) -- Smokey presents itself as something familiar to a person, so s/he is not immediately alarmed by what is seen.

Do you recall the Jodi Foster movie Contact? The aliens created a world for her where she was comfortable, and as I recall one took the form of her father -- reading her thoughts and was able to communicate with her. I imagine that Smokey may have similar capabilities, though I am NOT saying it is an alien entity. Just that Smokey may have been a part of the island since its creation -- and thus, is a part of the island's mythology.

drabauer

06-09-06, 02:45 AM

I read some recent interviews and didn't find it, so now I'm reviewing the last podcast.They are discussing the foot, and pretty much making fun of everything that's been written about it (the cult of homer simpson, a dog god, etc.). The foot has been planned for a long while; the island is a huge archeological dig. We will begin to find that the dharma are newcomers. Jokes about season three being in the post-Hellenic era. But "archeaology as a concept for the show" is a really important one, and this "statue, and who built it, and where the rest of it is. . . how those people figured into the history of the island of lost is going to be cool to find out."

RichardR

06-09-06, 03:08 PM

LostViking

06-09-06, 04:59 PM

[
LPU -- That's what I'm thinking. I propose (as many have) Smokey can take different animal forms, and the ancient ones perhaps saw him as an animal (or animals) -- Smokey presents itself as something familiar to a person, so s/he is not immediately alarmed by what is seen.
.....Just that Smokey may have been a part of the island since its creation -- and thus, is a part of the island's mythology.

Trinabobina, I am late to the game as usual - but congradulations on being correct so early on. There is an undeniable mythology link thanks to old 4 toes. Tell us, what does it feel like to be right? I would love to know! :)

As for smokey, I think it is possible that Dharma/Hanso brought some type of security system to the island that merged with the resident monster to form the current day smokey.

I really like the mythology angle for the show - seems to be a very plausable thing for JJ to think of. Sort of a more serious Buffy show.

LPU

06-09-06, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the podcast review drabauer! That's good stuff and looks like trina may very well be on the right path here.

Capella

06-10-06, 10:57 PM

Trina:

The Flood Myths -- Maybe "The Incident", the leak that caused the protocol? Just a thought...

RichardR

06-11-06, 12:14 AM

Amy, could you post a link to this comment? I'd be interested in reading the article.

LPU -- That's what I'm thinking. I propose (as many have) Smokey can take different animal forms, and the ancient ones perhaps saw him as an animal (or animals) -- Smokey presents itself as something familiar to a person, so s/he is not immediately alarmed by what is seen.

.

To elaborate on that thought... Smokie fits the hungry ghost category in my observations.

RichardR

06-11-06, 12:17 AM

Trina:

The Flood Myths -- Maybe "The Incident", the leak that caused the protocol? Just a thought...

Kelvin is military. Thus "leak" would mean that other people came into the scenario specifically. What Kelvin said was a major revelation IMO.

trinabobina

06-11-06, 04:01 AM

Tell us, what does it feel like to be right?

Dwesspt -- Ha! I'll let you know when I truly am! :) I jumped on the mythology band wagon mainly because I know zilch about science. Philospophy, mythology, and general liberal arts topics I can handle, but science? nada. And it seemed to me from the start of Lost that this would be a multi-layered show, requiring the viewer to try on different perspectives -- to see this make-believe world through many eyes. And what better make-believe is there than mythology? It seemed a perfect fit.

Drabauer -- thanks for the summary...one of these days I have to listen to the podcasts just to get caught up. I wonder if they'll be releasing any during the summer?

Cappela -- tying the flood myths the "the leak" -- nice little connection! Opening up the flood gates, so to speak. There have been many MANY water allusions in the show (both literal and figurative), and I still think there is a connection between the water they drink and some of what is going on. Those water bottles pop up in every show.

Richard -- I'm not familiar with the "hungry ghost" -- could you explain?

I'm currently reading J. Campbells' "Myths to live by" and it has wonderful parallels to Lost by way of how mythology shapes our lives. In fact, I think it may have been mentioned before in the old posting ground. I'll write a bit about it after I've digested it...

LostViking

06-11-06, 06:23 AM

-- Ha! I'll let you know when I truly am! :)
.

I can think of one big 4 toed reason you might have been very very right.

trinabobina

06-11-06, 02:10 PM

Oh yeah...then there's THAT. :)

Okay, it feels pretty darn good to be on to something.

I feel validated.

I feel complete.

Of course what will be fun now is following the development and discovery of the island's uniqe mythology. Obviously it won't follow any one pantheon of gods, rather, it will probably take tidbits from Eastern and Western mythology -- furthering the concept of parallel myths.

It seems to be moving towards a very ecumenical or interfaith view of the world. If you're familiar with Baha'i, you probably already see how the show plays into this notion that all world religions are intertwined, kind of a"one river, many wells" approach. (perhaps ironically, the spiritual writer Matthew Fox wrote a book with that title...one section explores 18 modern myths...I'm not kidding, that's the author's name!)

from www.bahai.org
Humanity’s One Religion
Today, more and more people are coming to recognize that all the great religions have been revealed by the same God. In the message of Bahá’u’lláh, the common spiritual heritage of humankind is renewed to meet the needs of an age of scientific advancement and global integration.

Perhaps TPTB are taking our characters on a spiritual journey of sorts, where they will arrive at an understanding of the interconnectednes of human spirituality. The One River Many Wells may be connected to the pointedness of showing the characters carrying water, drinking water from the same watersource. It is a metaphor for spirituality.

Probably a stretch...but hey, just drawing some parallels!

RichardR

06-11-06, 05:21 PM

Perhaps TPTB are taking our characters on a spiritual journey of sorts, where they will arrive at an understanding of the interconnectednes of human spirituality. The One River Many Wells may be connected to the pointedness of showing the characters carrying water, drinking water from the same watersource. It is a metaphor for spirituality.

Probably a stretch...but hey, just drawing some parallels!

At least in my observation most tv writers are formula writers. They structure they're creative elements within a chosen formula. That being dropping a real world society into a mythical environment. I don't think that's particularly enlightening nor does it resolve anything. It was clear a couple shows into the series this was a fundamental of the story.

Son of Locke

07-05-06, 06:53 AM

:bump:
lacenaire compared Danielle to Cassandra, and I think he's on to something. Fenry is the Trojan Horse? Not sure about this, as it was Odysseus who had ordered the horse to be built.Nice, Camel. I see Oceanic 815 as the horse, bringing the enemy Losties to the land of the "good guys." To the degree one believes that Desmond brought down the plane, your Odysseus parallel could survive.

boonian androphile

07-05-06, 03:41 PM

Also I think of Rousseau as Clytemnestra, who, after her daughter Iphigenia (Alex) was sacrificed (taken), killed Agamemnon (Robert and a few others). In this version, however, there is no Orestes to engage in a little vengeful matricide.

bozjohnson25

08-30-06, 12:49 AM

Found in the Land of Lost

08-30-06, 01:03 AM

Maybe they mean the boar that seemed to be taunting Sawyer? I don't know....

bozjohnson25

08-30-06, 01:07 AM

That was the boar that i thought of.

Hodgepodge

08-30-06, 01:50 AM

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the one they're talking about. Something just came to mind! Did Locke kill anymore boar after this sighting?

LostInWilderness

08-30-06, 03:06 AM

Locke had already stopped hunting boar. They were crying about being hungry, then Sawyer let dinner for a week walk away.

Mysterious Mike

08-30-06, 04:04 AM

I wonder what mystical boar meat tastes like.

didasearchandfoundnothing

08-30-06, 10:51 AM

Mystical chicken maybe???

CLUCK

08-30-06, 11:40 AM

mystical pizza!!!!!!!

sawyerhasbestlines

08-30-06, 02:57 PM

I was looking at the season two DVD's on abc.com (http://abctvstore.seenon.com/detail.php?p=9384&v=abclstfan&SESSID=f2439d50c6bb6a63b9429ae91d193fe9) (click here to see it) today when I was reading about it and it said that there was a mystical boar on the island. Did anyone think that the boar was mystical?

Funny you brought this up.

A few months ago, I was looking up some mythology stuff, and saw a connection to our Lost boar and a boar from mythology. My memory is terrible, but it may have been Norse or Irish, and I think the boar had something to do with ghosts. And it also related to horses.

ETA:

On my naming day when I come 12 I gone front spear and kilt a wyld boar he parbly ben the las wyld pig on the Bundel Downs any how there hadnt ben none for a long time befor him nor I aint looking to see none agen. —Russell Hoban, Riddley Walker (1980)

VonWesvolin

08-30-06, 03:00 PM

^^^ Norse Mythology.

Mapinguari

08-30-06, 05:07 PM

The Mystical Boar was me with a plate of steak tips.
Nothing to see here...

RunLoganRun

08-31-06, 12:30 AM

Did anyone think that the boar was mystical?

That particular boar was about as mystical, as the frog was psychic. Speaking of which, why does Sawyer get stuck with all the lame animal episodes ? ( including the Dharma brand shark )

Hurley4Prez

08-31-06, 12:34 AM

That particular boar was about as mystical, as the frog was psychic. :rotfl: Very true.

LPU

08-31-06, 12:35 AM

Hypno-toad.

rknorton91

08-31-06, 03:30 AM

There used to be thread on the old board covering this topic in (sorry I can not remeber the name of the poser) he went in depth about mythology behind the Boar and the Bear (polar bear)
In fact during much of season 1 I kind of leaned toward their being some association between certain people on the island and the boar and others being associated with the polar bear. I still think that their or at least two powers in play on this island but I have not really given much more thought to the whole animal thing lately

LostInWilderness

08-31-06, 04:08 AM

Warming up for the new season. Search still works. Give it a try. Merged.

thoughtform

09-01-06, 03:40 AM

If my memory is correct, I think that the boar is a representative of the female underworld energies in many myths in Europe, especially the British Isles. The symbol is considered cthonic. That relates to earth energies in the arena of ley lines and ancestral contacts, and the symbol is known to lead seekers to an encounter with those energies, if they choose to follow. I believe that it is sacred to Persephone.

The bear could be seen as a more celestial symbol. It deals more with the masculine solar energies. With leadership and bravery. They both seem relevant to the theme of the show.

trinabobina

02-12-07, 01:46 PM

I'm bumping this old post so we can update the eight parallel myths (for those who are interested...) The following is what I originally wrote during season 1

The Creation Theory -- this is the one we don't know, the one we want to know the most..."in the beginning..."
The Earliest times -- alluded to with "Adam and Eve" and Danielle, the others
The Flood Myths -- the tides, they are a'changin'
The Love Myths -- Kate and Sawyer, Kate and Jack, Sayid and Shannon, Boone and Shannon, Sun and Jin, Rose and hubby...
Morality Myths -- all back stories are dealing with moral decisions; moral quandries abound (see lies and lying liars)
Hero Myths -- um...Jack. reluctant hero anyone? Locke, the Theseus of the island? (btw, THAT would be an interesting myth to parallel...the minator/the monster. we're missing 7 sacraficial virgins, though...)...Locke will save us all
Journey to the Underworld & the Path of Death -- the "hatch," Charlie's hanging, Jack's father
The End of The World myths -- could be with the plane crash, could be what's to come -- what they are moving toward

Here's some new additions from season 3...add to it, please!

The Creation Theory -- a new creation of life via Juliet's special science juice
The Earliest times -- Ben has been here all his life(?), old fourtoes
The Flood Myths -- wiping out the world with only the select few surviving?
The Love Myths -- Ben and Juliet's past, Sawyer and Kate and Jack
Morality Myths -- what is "good"? Is it better to end one life to save two? Ethical decisions abound in these episodes.
Hero Myths -- our concept of hero may change...who is heroic now? Kate? Jack? Juliet? Alex?
Journey to the Underworld & the Path of Death -- Ben seems on his way on this journey, and Kate/Sawyer/Alex's boat ride across the ocean is reminiscent of the journey across Styx. The little island was very much like Hades for the captives and Karl.
The End of The World myths -- The sky is purple! Dharma, the Others, Mittelos are all seemingly operating on their belief that the world is ending

sawyerhasbestlines

02-12-07, 02:31 PM

I'm bumping this old post so we can update the eight parallel myths (for those who are interested...)

Yay! I'm interested.

Journey to the Underworld & the Path of Death -- Ben seems on his way on this journey, and Kate/Sawyer/Alex's boat ride across the ocean is reminiscent of the journey across Styx. The little island was very much like Hades for the captives and Karl.

Also, Colleen's funeral had some river Styx imagery.

trinabobina

02-12-07, 03:01 PM

Hey sHTBL -- nice to see you again! Which episode was Colleen's funeral? I can't remember. I'd like to find some screen shots of it.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x01-cities/4/thumb_twocitiescap-0780.jpg

Flood imagry, or journey to underworld perhaps?

LostInWilderness

02-12-07, 11:55 PM

Colleen's funeral would fit the journey to the underworld myths, don't you think? It did have a Norse mythology feel, so maybe it's a little different. Going to Valhalla. I don't remember the episode name, but it was s3e5 or so.

trinabobina

02-13-07, 12:18 AM

Thanks LIW -- can't find any shots on the Lost Gallery. Norse mythology works, too. Parallel myths are just that -- themes that are present in any well developed mythology. Norse, Egyption, Greek, Christianity, etc share these themes -- some of their stories (as you know) are remarkably similar. What I enjoy about Lost is how they are creating their mythology along these lines. At least, I don't have to force to hard to make it fit along these universal themes.

In an old, old thread some of us looked at how the Lost characters fit into different Pantheons -- mainly Greek and Norse. Do you remember it? Might be interesting to see how these new characters fit in.

Fourtoes

02-13-07, 02:13 PM

I'm bumping this old post so we can update the eight parallel myths (for those who are interested...) The following is what I originally wrote during season 1

Here's some new additions from season 3...add to it, please!

The Creation Theory -- a new creation of life via Juliet's special science juice
The Earliest times -- Ben has been here all his life(?), old fourtoes
The Flood Myths -- wiping out the world with only the select few surviving?
The Love Myths -- Ben and Juliet's past, Sawyer and Kate and Jack
Morality Myths -- what is "good"? Is it better to end one life to save two? Ethical decisions abound in these episodes.
Hero Myths -- our concept of hero may change...who is heroic now? Kate? Jack? Juliet? Alex?
Journey to the Underworld & the Path of Death -- Ben seems on his way on this journey, and Kate/Sawyer/Alex's boat ride across the ocean is reminiscent of the journey across Styx. The little island was very much like Hades for the captives and Karl.
The End of The World myths -- The sky is purple! Dharma, the Others, Mittelos are all seemingly operating on their belief that the world is ending

Good stuff here.
In hero myths, Hurley fits the "hidden king" hero nicely and his name means king. He has a physical defect that exists because of a problem in his mind and may be healed by a personal triumph in a quest -- similar to the fisher king versions of the hidden king idea.

Sawyer is another hero archetype, the delightful rogue or trickster hero.

Don't forget about Desmond on several of these. His descent into the hatch and turning the key. And his voyage to the island while Penelope awaits his return has been previously noted as very much a Ulysses thing.

On the Love myths, the on-island/off-island romances seem to have the greatest mythical qualities to me: Locke/Helen (Greek myth), Jack/Sarah (Hebrew myth), Nadia/Sayid (Shia myth). We do also have the Pace/Claire pairing that may signify Peace/Light.

trinabobina

02-14-07, 01:15 AM

Okay, found the pyre scene.
this first one is from Sigurd's funeral -- draped with flowers, he was then set adrift and afire:
http://www.timelessmyths.com/norse/gallery/sigurdspyre.jpg

Colleen also had a pyre draped with flowers and then was set afire.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x05-cost/1/normal_costoflivingcap143.jpg

sawyerhasbestlines

02-14-07, 04:18 PM

Good job with the parallel images, Trina. :D

Can't wait to see if Pickett gets a funeral tonight and if so, how it is handled.

trinabobina

02-15-07, 08:38 AM

Okay -- Jack's father's Sox philosophy got me thinking about the Greek fatalistic attitute toward death. Are all of you familiar with the Fates? There were three of them called the Moirai. We've got:
Clotho, the spinner
Lachesis, the drawer of lots,
Atropos, the inevitable end to life

The Fates handled the threads of human life. One of these threads was allocated to every person, and each goddess took her turn in manipulating this thread. Clotho selected the thread, Lachesis measured it, and Atropos cut this thread to signify the end of a person's existence.

We keep on hearing about destiny, fate, change and redemption. Perhaps the camp will split into those who are fatalistic/destiny driven (Locke, Sawyer) vs those who believe in change/redemption (I'm thinking of Michael, who built the raft to change his fate, Sayid)

I posted this back in 2005. I think now we can see how true this is. The world is destined to end, people will do anything to prevent it/change the future.

Greeks believed in destiny, as did the Norse. No wonder there are so many mythological/Christian/Buddist/ etc, etc references in this show. It's all about our inevitable doomsday...

Just as Jocasta heard the oracle that her son would one day murder his father and marry her, and tried to have her baby killed to change the fates, Oedipus grows up to fufill the prophesy.

As Drabauer (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30588) and Boonian (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30585) so aptly outline it, Desmond is Sisyphus in our parallel mythology.

trinabobina

02-15-07, 01:32 PM

The Norse view of Ragnarok is especially applicable to this them of destiny, and what I believe to be the "truth (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30587)" about the island.

The following is from that catch-all Wiki...
Norse mythology's vision of the end times is uniquely stark and pessimistic: not only are the Norse gods capable of being defeated by residents of Yggdrasil's other branches, but in fact are destined to be defeated, and have always lived with this knowledge. In the end, it was believed, the forces of chaos will outnumber and overcome the divine and human guardians of order. ...a final battle [will ensue] between order and chaos (Ragnarök), which the gods will lose, as is their fate. The gods, aware of this, will gather the finest warriors, the Einherjar, to fight on their side when the day comes, but in the end they will be powerless to prevent the world from descending into the chaos out of which it has once emerged; the gods and their world will be destroyed. There are two optimistic facts, however: Not only will chaos also be defeated, but a new, better world will emerge from the ashes of the old one.

That is what Dharma is trying to create -- a new, better world.

trinabobina

02-15-07, 09:45 PM

Mrs. Hawking's broach (as pointed out in another thread) strongly resembles the symbol of ragnarok (see early posts in this thread)

http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x08-flashes/3/normal_flashes-cap580.jpg

I think we are definitly dealing with an "end of the world" mythology.

drabauer

02-16-07, 12:12 AM

I certainly see Desmond's journey as similar to Greek tragedy. Does he accept his fate, or fight it?

Ms. Hawking was like one of the fates, or Norns, who weave the fate of mankind. From her perspective the broken strand can be patched momentarily, but never sealed.

LostInWilderness

02-16-07, 01:00 AM

That's a great description of Mrs. H. I'm trying to decide if we have to deal with her on any other level. She may be like Tom Bombadil - unconnected to the story in any other way.

drabauer

02-18-07, 08:28 AM

I think it may be time to resurrect the most obvious mythic connection to Desmond, the Odyssey.

Similarities with Lost in general:

The Odyssey begins in the middle, with prior events leading up to the journey back to Ithaca told in flashback or exposition (it is the original nonlinear plot)

Penelope had 108 (!) suitors for her hand.

Some island inhabitants resemble the lotus eaters
Desmond's tale:

An oracle foretells that Odysseus will be gone for decades. so despite his oath of fealty to Menelaus, he feigns madness to escape the Trojan war, but was tricked/forced into service.
Later Odysseus cheats fate; the first Achaean to touch Trojan soil was foretold to die, so he jumps on his shield.

Penelope remains faithful ("I will always love you.")

After 7 years of captivity under Calypso's enchantment, Odysseus builds a raft and leaves, but it is destroyed. He washes up on Scherie island, and is taken in by the locals, who have no idea who he is. When he reveals himself, he narrates the long story of his journey.

I'll stop there. My guess is that when we learn of his time in the military, we may note further parallels.