+ Possible clue to the island's history

[Coyote1066]

There was a old discussion, started by pinnerman in November, about the age of Danielle's equipment and it refered to a symbol on a crate during Sayid's captivity. Someone thought it might be a civil defense insignia and then edens_demise posted a drawing of what he/she thought it looked like. No one ever seemed to clue in on this nugget so I've decided to give the subject its own thread. Here is the drawing made by edens_demise:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/2.bmp

which bares a striking resemblance to this (disregard Ohio):

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/untitled.bmp

I'm sure someone out there has this episode and I was hoping to see a screen capture of the symbol. I think the circle edens_demise saw could have been the C and D run together in her image.

I posted some theories about this but I think they were in the wrong thread or kinda got lost in the whole "numbers" stampede. Here's it is again:

About the signal, it's possible that it had been going on a LONG time before the transmission was actually heard. It may have been a realtive weak signal only heard 16 ys (or more) ago due to optimum atmospheric conditions which allowed it to bounce and be heard by US listening stations near Australia. Chances are that the French team was much closer when they heard it since I bet they were come out of French Polynesia and were heading somewhere remote.

Here's a theory. The symbol mentioned really does looks like an air defence insignia (as someone already mentioned). The picture shows a red circle but I wonder if maybe what folks saw was the C and D so close together it looked like a circle. Look at these:

Civil Defense Insignia (http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/cdinsignia.html)

During WWII (I know, not again) the US used inhabitants (or stationed people) of remote islands to act as early warning aircraft spotters, even in areas not in the actual combat zone (there were aircraft spotters here in Colorado!). These spotters would have been a part of the Civil Defense force, would have had supplies marked with that insignia, would have had to have a means to transmit their sightings (a radio tower), would have had a long term power supply (tidal generator...cable into the sea) for the radio, would have needed some form of self defense (bold-action Springfield rifles used by the US prior to the M1) and might have had a bomb shelter (hatch).

These orignal spotters may be the two 40+ old corpses. They're at least 40yrs old...maybe 60. After that many years can you really tell the difference? Ethan and anyone else may be the decendants of those spotters or they may be other survivors...I don't believe they're other suvivors because I think the radio signal that brought the French team was only detectable for a short period of time (atmospheric conditions changed). The fact that the current survivors arrived so much later was due to the series of events that had to transpire to get Hurley on that plane.

Now I don't have any answers as to why so many supernatural events keep occuring or how they fit in with the Civil Defense theory but the forces on the island may have existed many years (centuries) before the spotters came. I also don't know what the numbers mean. Maybe they're old code, maybe they're a warning or maybe the supernatural forces made the spotters or their decendants broadcast them to attact more people (as others have said). Pacific Islanders have a developed mythos of revengeful gods punishing transgressors or demanding sacrifices, right? Maybe the orignal spotters' presence or actions somehow angered the gods of that island.

How does that all sound?

[karl]

i think this would actually hold with the theory i just posted down below, that they used an existing WW2 base to trap this thing in....excellent research work

[Raven Day]

I have never heard of this before. This is really good, Who is Edens Demise? Does this person have a screen cap posted?

I have seen this symbol before on a visit to Norad. Its everywhere, it is a civil defense symbol. Usually without the state ID though. I have seen it in a full circle as well. I never saw it in LOST though I am going to have to go back and look for it.

Very cool therory I am going to do some digging and will be back. Thanks...

[Coyote1066]

I don't know if edens-demise is still on the boards since the thread was pretty old.

Here's the original thread's location:

Pinnerman's old thread (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=358.topic)

[JacksGirlfriend]

Edi is still around although she doesn't post much. She hangs in chat. I'm glad you found Pin's thread. I went off to get it and when I got back - voila! - there is was. Thanks.

[Raven Day]

Very cool Thank You .. I think you are on to something here.

[Gambit980]

Go to the basement or the picture post :eek in the Lostaway section to see who eden is. I like your theory and if the people that went to the island somehow used the numbers and then made the transmission repeat the numbers, I think that makes sense.

[Raven Day]

I am actually suprised I have not seen this. I read somewhere in an interview that the writers were reading the message boards and were blown away that people were figuring stuff out and then they would laugh because we would then turn and go in the wrong direction. I think This post and Edens Demise have found something here. This symbol is on everything around Norad. I will find some pictures and post them. Not sure of the orgin but this is not french.

[Cheval Blanc]

I actually use to work for a sector in the Dept. of Defense. I know this symbol well, Where did Edens Demise Find this symbol. Is there a screen cap somewhere. If this is truely on the Island that would answer so many questions I have great work. And props to Edens Demise! Good work.. I am blown away.

[Raven Day]

I actually got chills reading this post and Pinnermans post. I am surpized with all the research I have done on the show I had never heard of his.

[Coyote1066]

Thanks everyone. I really have to give credit to those who orignally saw this though. I just took the info and did some digging.

I'm dying to see a screen capture!

What made me think spotters was an old movie with Rock Hudson (?) called "Mother Goose..." or something like that. He was a spotter on a remote island in the Pacific and ended up having to take care of a bunch of French school girls and their teacher after they had been evacuated due a Japanese invasion somewhere.

[Raven Day]

I have been doing some research on midway. Its an Island that was pretty much destroyed in WW2 . Pilots that flew this mission wore a CD patch on there right shoulders. This patch is probably the same. I am looking for a picture.

In the Battle of Midway fought June 4-7 1942, fought over an ocean by the Navies of Japan and the U.S. in airplanes in the South Pacific Ocean.

What if...Sam and Leonard were statioined at a "POW" observing station. A place where they listened for transmissions in an attempt to locate WWII POW's. A station that was formed after the Battle of Midway / WWII. 16 years ago when they heard the transmission, a person, a surivivor of the war had been able to salvage radio equipment, in the radio tower, and send a message over the radio waves, and then retreated to a Fallout shelter on the island. What if, The island they are on, is the Island of Midway. What if, the Tower, the cables, the bomb shelter, ALL OF IT, is from the War that took place there, and their plane was actually, taken down by someone on the island, that didn't know the war was over. That had been there for so long that they became "obsessed." they had gotten to the point where they beleived they were still at war. What if, they are trapped in the area of an old POW camp. Only, the reason no one has found any evidence of it, is maybe because it was either all destroyed, or that whoever was in the hatch, salvaged it all underground.

Here is what midway use to look like.
www.midway-island.com/map...lesand.jpg (http://www.midway-island.com/maps/battlesand.jpg)

[RunLoganRun]

A good theory - but, if the hatch turns out to be only an outdated bomb shelter, that would be very anticlimatic. If the writers are saying that they read this board, that would be suprising - since, someone already said that "due to possible lawsuits" that writers never read message boards. Where did you see this ? A bomb shelter would never live up to all the hype...

[netto8]

But what if the people living underground still think there is a war going on? What if they have been there so long that there are generations of them and this world is the only one they know - kind of like in the movie "Blast From the Past?"

new poster... sorry if I embarrass anyone.

[Raven Day]

I can't remeber where I saw it but I remeber it being Legit. One of the writers said something like. People on the message boards get close to solving and then go off in the complete wrong direction..am I the only one who read this? I don't have a link to sorry.

I am not saying its just a bomb shelter. I think there is much more to it than that. But this symbol is important if it is truely on the island. I have never actually scene it. Maybe Edens Demise could post a screen cap where she saw it.

[Thatch ABC]

(unable to load pagetext)

[Coyote1066]

In addition or instead of being spotters they may have been operating a radio navigation station. See this:

Radio Navigation (http://www.taphilo.com/history/WWII/wwii-navigation.shtml)

It is High Frequency which is what the Navy guys were listening for.

Just a thought.

Also, I think Midway still exists. I believe the Navy still uses it if I'm not mistaken.

About the bomb shelter...I really did mean "might be a bomb shelter". Besides, if it is, who knows what's in there now. :eek

[Raven Day]

Why did thatch post to remove this thread and then remove his post? What's up?

[Coyote1066]

I think he was joking...he was pretending to be from ABC and thought we might be on to something.

[Coyote1066]

Anyone have a screen capture? If not I'll try to find the episode and get one.

Also the movie was "Father Goose" and it starred Cary Grant. Here's the synopsis:

(Cary Grant) As the unshaven, messy misanthrope Walter Eckland, a World War II-era beach bum who monitors Japanese air activity for the Australian navy in exchange for booze, Grant makes a convincingly hard-bitten, hard-drinking antihero. Until, that is, a pretty French schoolmistress (Leslie Caron) and her seven little charges (all girls) survive a nearby plane crash and invade Eckland's raunchy isolation.

[Hodgepodge]

I like your theory Coyote1066! I can't for the life of me remember where the insignia screencap link. The idea that "Adam & Eve" may've been part of WWII effort makes perfect sense by their estimated time of death.

This also ties in with my thoughts about the hatch. I too think it's an old bomb shelter. But, I think it's been taken over by the "Others". Once underground, I believe Locke and Boone will be able to locate Danielle's SOS broadcast signal. And, of course they'll run into the "Others".

Can you say cliffhanger!

[Coyote1066]

Hi everyone,

I'm trying to digest all the info and comment on each.

Gambit,

Good research on the signal corps. I certainly agree that this was/is a very good angle. The whole bomb shelter thing has sorta shifted the whole time frame to the late '50s or early '60s...back to the original age of adam and eve. Since the insignia and shelter go hand in hand it's looking more like maybe WWII isn't the period. Not to say there isn't a B-17 or something out in the jungle.

purrkins,

I did see something about SLAs while researching and a serial number is still my #1 thought about the numbers.

The LORAN stuff is a good idea too...the pictures on the page didn't load for me and I would have loved to see a map of the omega stations.

Oswald,

You've really opened a new avenue for this. The fact that Locke has this geiger counter and is either ex-military or a military buff means there's a good chance he knows a great deal about these shelters. That or his natural instincts are directing him to excavate the hatch, probably in search of power lines, vent pipes or just to see how large it is. I don't think he knows what's inside but he is probably guessing survival equipment at the least.

I can't seem to see any other clues in the photo other than what looks like a rifle bag near the lower left corner of the flag and the picture on the wall of soldiers loading into a helicopter.

Would you happen to have a high-res version or maybe a link to one? It's doesn't seem to match any of the Lost-Media captures. Is it a promo or crew shot? Do we ever see the geiger counter in the episode?

Hodgepodge,

I hope so too and I agree that she/her team definately scavanged what they could find not only from their ship but a possible building near the radio tower/black rock. I'd like to re-visit the contents of Danielle's shelter again at some point...a bed? If the ship was sinking would you think posturepedic? I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.

When you think of Civil Defense you do think of the continental 48 states but I've found that places like Guam and Hawaii still maintain a Civil Defense Agency to augment FEMA. That being said, the personnel on the island may not have been civil defense themselves but would have stocked their shelter with civil defense designed survival equipment.

Mike,

Hi Mike, yup we're looking at the nuclear fallout shelter idea. However purgatory ideas are strickly forbidden! :D

Ziadiva,

I was starting to think I was the only one that ever saw that movie...it's funny, even by today's standards and yes, it was what got the whole spotter idea rolling.

Melostmo,

Agreed.

dhb88,

You're 100% right. It looks like a lot of American island communities still maintain a civil defense agency.

sawyerhasbestlines,

So that's a confirmation then. I'm starting to think Locke is either some ultra survivalist nut or....I don't know what. :lol Either way he's gotta have a pretty strong inkling as to what he's diggin up.


Well,

I'm gonna grab a bite then come back and throw some new stuff in the theory pot.

[zubazpants]

If Danielle truly is scavenging items from previous/current island inhabitants *and* for some reason some of the equipment originated from civil defense corps supplies, her medical equipment (syringe, sedative, etc.) could have come from a kit such as this: civil defense medical kit (http://www.civildefensemuseum.com/cdmuseum2/supply/medical.html)

However, even though these supplies were designed for use in a shelter it would seem some of the medicines would still be useless after 40 years. According to the that same Civil Defense website, fallout shelters would have also contained a radiation kit with a geiger counter just like Locke's.

[pinnerman]

accygirl - very interesting, I tried to recreate this map, I think there's a decimal misplacement. The one value can't be bigger than 180, so I think its 4.815 and 162.342. That puts the spot right in the same area, check it out:

www.mapquest.com/maps/map...de=162.342 (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&formtype=latlong&latlongtype=decimal&latitude=4.815&longitude=162.342)

So for me, this is close enough. I'm done wondering about the numbers until I see a better explanation. If you find one, let me know. They probably marked the equipment with the long and lat numbers as a destination marker. Any other ideas?

I think it's very likely the writers and producers wanted to give us something to solve at some point so we could feel like we're finally getting some answers. I just figured it would take a while longer. This may not be it, but like I said...until I see something better....

[deelsee7]

I am totally impressed! This is the best thread I've read in weeks. I think Pinnerman is right about the writers wanting to give us something to solve, and I am amazed that you brains have figured it out 'the numbers' in less than a week. Kudos to Coyote for starting this thread with solid research and ideas, and to all the others who have contributed.

The writers have said that people have been getting 'lost' on the island for a long time, which works with WWII spotters, cold war testing/spying, Civil Defense equipment and bomb shelters/bunkers. While it doesn't explain all the island mysteries (especially the polar bears, the 'monster' and the whispers) it gives a solid base for any sci-fi-ish elements which may or may not be added to the mix.

To lost-tv veterans, please note that not all newbies are an irritating waste of time. And to newbies, please note that Coyote did his homework in reading older posts, and did the research which sparked this thread, earning him the highest honor you can get on the Theories & Speculation forum - praise from Pinnerman!

[Coyote1066]

First, if anyone wants to discuss the spoilers alluded to earlier in this post go Here (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm8.showMess age?topicID=402.topic). I went ahead and took the plunge.

Okay, I'm not saying the bomb shelter idea is 100% established but I'd like to start branching off from that point and think about some of the other items we know about.

Danielle's shelter and her other possessions (i.e. what she brought vs. what was already there). I think that's started already...cool.

Danielle's research ship

The infamous cable (power, if so what and where, or communications).

About Danielle's ship. Again, like the bomb shelter there isn't a standard make or model research ship, so this is a best guess.

I found that research ships generally come in two flavors: coastal and deep-sea. Deep-sea ships are YUGE (as Trump would say). Crew plus scientists can easily exceed 30. This seems a little larger than I picture her team. These ships seem to be designed to do deep exploration with ROVs and/or sopisticated sonar equipment. The other variety, coastal, obviously carries a much smaller crew and is not specifically designed for sustained operations in the open sea.

If you want to see examples of modern French research vessels go here (http://www.ifremer.fr/fleet/navires/index.html). It's in English. Some are new while others have been in service for awhile.

Now, the reason I want to know about the vessel is its speed, range and power plant. The engines are almost universally diesel, so they don't operate underwater if we're thinking about the ship being the source of any power. Now these ships have a pretty long range so that souldn't be a concern. Speed, well the large ships avg about 10 knots so I'll make a wild guess of 15 knots for the smaller ships.

Given Danielle's story that "we were two days out of Tahiti when we encountered a storm", which is then confirmed to Hurly, we may be able to get a rough radius from Tahiti. I'll assume that they traveled at cruise speed 24 hrs a day and encountered the storm/island on the third day. To get the maximum radius I'll assume they were headed straight for the island to begin with (i.e. no course changes). I know they didn't, but this is just to get the max radius. 1 knot = 1.152 mph. So (15*1.152)*48=~829 miles. So I'll make my best radius drawing:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/aunewnew.jpg

I included the coordinate mentioned earlier. Not to say this is wrong but assuming a normal time-space scenario it seems kinda far away. Strange though, It looks like the ship may have never left French Polynesian waters...which would really be odd considering we're seeing possible US stuff on the island...in French territory? All we need now are two more radii and we can triangulate a possible position...one radius could be flight 815...the other one...hmmm.

I also have some other interesting maps to show you guys but I'm really hitting a wall tonight.

Thanks for all the contributions and I'll catch you later.

[Coyote1066]

Thanks deelsea,

My head is swelling by the minute! Er, the one on my shoulders you pervs! :D

I'll keep trying...don't have much else to do until April...damn you ABC! Give me back my Lost-heroin!

Seriously, thanks!

[yung23]

wow, real stuff.
I do remember all those alchemy insignias, at least I thought that was the conclusion last time.


Good find.
I had a feeling there was more to that hatch picture then we could see. The bars look exactly like the ones in the diagrams !!

but.. where does our entity thing fit in now ?

I feel so...betrayed !

thats it, I'm now one of the "others"

[Coyote1066]

Yung,

There's still room for the entity. I think we're just focusing on the physical evidence we've seen or heard about. Don't joint the dark side yet! :)

[melostmo]

hi ok, u need to ask yourself @ this point then:
Why didn't a team search for Danielle ?
Where is the wreckage of HER ship ?
Why didn't Hurley ask her this?
what was her research ?
why didn't Hurley ask ?
why didn't anyone think of taping into the cable, which may still be connected and have current ? -- not patting myself on the back, but I would have thought of that in a minute ..
the thing is that NOTHING makes sense here..:rolleyes

[melostmo]

And why doesn't it make sense?
CUZ THE "ISLAND" PEOPLE R SCREWED UP ! CANNOT THINK like normal folks...
and that is the key to the whole story...

and dat's all she wrote :hat

[Coyote1066]

Whatever.

Ugh, insomnia. While I'm up might as well crunch some radii.

I went back and read the transcript for episodes 1-2 to see what the pilot said again. Summary: 6 hours out, lost radio (ugh...I used to work on aircraft and this still bugs the heck out of me!), headed back to Fiji, 1000 mi off course when hit turbulance. Alright, an L1011 (which was what the wreckage was) has a cruise speed of 615 mph, so in six hours it would have been ~3690 miles into its route (I used the Quantas Sydney to LA route). It then turns, supposedly, towards Fiji. Here's what that would look like:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/1.jpg

The next part is harder to determine. 1000 miles off course in reference to WHAT? The original route, the route to Fiji or a possible false route they were flying. So you have to track multiple vectors with deviations from each. I did roughly 40 deg intervals to simplify things and it looks like this mess:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/2.jpg

If you were to create infinite vectors it basically just works out to this:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/3.jpg

Now, I add the possible research ship radius and the coordinates mentioned earlier and here's what you get:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/4.jpg

The shaded part is the most likely area the island would be located in if I did everything right. Well, it's not the most remote area of the Pacific, so that begs the question (others have asked), why hasn't a search team stumbled upon it...specifically when the research ship disappeared. Also, contrary to what the pilot said, a bad radio does not cause air traffic controllers to "lose you"...even if it was a transponder...they may not know who you are, but they know an aircraft is there. They were flying near Samoa, Fiji and a lot of other tracking stations.

I'm left with only one conclusion...the plane and the ship DID disappear (a common theory on the board) and the island is "phased out" (Pinnerman step in with your Philadelphia theory). I'll stop there and search out the boards for what's been said before.

What does all this have to do with the original purpose of the thread? Well, I needed to know the general location of the island, and if it was remote or "hidden in plain sight"...that way we can try to understand the purpose of the shelter and other items on the island. Sorry if folks were trying to tell me this but I had to "see it" with my own eyes.

Oh yeah, judging by the map they would have won $100 if they made it past Hawaii...damn the luck!! :rolleyes

[Coyote1066]

I can't find any post for the Philadelphia Experiment using the search function...tried both archives too. Anyone know where it may be?

[NeillT006]

Coyote:

Just for comparison purposes, here is the location of the point identified by Accygirl through entering THE NUMBER as decimal coordinates (which I never knew you could do ---- see? This is educational.)

http://members.aol.com/dbareports/map.gif

Have fun.

Neill

[NeillT006]

I can't find any post for the Philadelphia Experiment using the search function...tried both archives too. Anyone know where it may be?


Philly Fodder (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm34.showMes sage?topicID=4.topic)

N.

[jaystao]

Coyote, you are the man! I've been thinking about the two co-ordinantes of both disaster ratios for ages but all my pens are lost. My only observation is that it can't be Niue as there is nothing there but rocks.... black ones.

PS: The thread for the Philadelphia experiment has obviously been 'displaced'.

[Coyote1066]

Thanks Jays!

Neil, I forgot to label the coordinates on my map but its the blue dot in the upper left part of the big radius. Approximately. Thanks for the link too.

Pin, I don't know if you want me to put my follow-up to your Philadelphia post inside that thread or here, but I'm a believer!

A few comments...both the research vessel and flight 815 encountered severe weather which lead to their wrecks. Most likely caused by transitioning into the field, right?

The field may have weakened 16 yrs ago allowing the transmission to escape briefly, right also?

What if the island not only became invisible but moved to the new coordinate location? Didn't the ships supposedly used during the experiment "teleport" too? What if the researchers then tried to send out the coordinates...in other words saying "hey we're over here!"

I swore I wouldn't get too sci-fi...but this is really starting to fit.

One last thing before I head out. There is another Philadelphia Experiment thread (not nearly as in depth as Pinnerman's) on the spoilers board that has some really good points...I got a pit in my stomach reading it. I will warn you that it IS a semi-spoiler (it may just be a theory) and deals with episode 19. It's Here (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm8.showMess age?topicID=462.topic)

[Gambit980]

I never thought about the island moving before. If you look at the map in the Hawaiki thread Map (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1324.topic) you can see that there are multiple triangles just like the Bermuda triangle. Now I am wondering whether the island is hoping from one triangle to the next. Maybe the ship and the plane crashed when they were transported with the island to another triangle. It seems improbable to me, but it does explain some things. I think either in this post or in the numbers post someone said that the you could see constellations in the sky that you could only see for the northern hemisphere, this could help explain that.

[pinnerman]

navyricks post in spoilers could be moved to Theories, because it is mostly speculation, but it does extrapolate on some of my earlier thoughts from Philly. Coyote, I wasn't actually sure you'd seen my Philly Experiment thread yet, so the fact that you did most of this research and discovery WITHOUT the knowledge of what I had already put out there in that theory is a testament to your skills.

All this new evidence plus the fact that Lost Media is saying that "the hatch and Locke's back-story are inter-related" opens up many more interesting questions. navyricks theory that Locke was on the Island before is an intriguing concept. It would definitely explain his knowledge of the island and surviving in that environment. I'm not totally sure about it yet, guess we'll find out what the connection is when we see the next episode. But think of this, it would go a long way to explain certain other things too.

If we're working off of some of the basic principles of my Philly Theory, the core of that theory is that there were some kind of experiments going on, either on or near the island. They have since obviously ended, but they most likely went terribly wrong, leaving some long term effects on the island, and effecting anyone who was on it or ends up on it now. This is where this all starts to get fun, because as I stated back in my original Philly Thread, this concept gives the writers so many places to go, and so many outs.

If Locke really was there, first, it could explain the reason he survived the thing in the jungle...maybe it recognized him, or maybe it sensed that there was something about him that was connected to the island. Maybe "the others" are some of the original people that were on the island when the experiments went bad, and maybe they'll also recognize or remember Locke. Would it be such a stretch to find out that Locke was playing up the paranormal aspects of the strange occurrences on the island to lead everyone else away from the scientific truths he knew to be the cause of everything? It's not like he hasn't already bent the truth and provided misinformation to people, and we know he's been less than forthcoming about what he knows. He's also the one that found the hatch...there's a shock...what are the odds?

The fact is, Locke is the biggest X factor on the show, the writers have said as much, and he's probably operating on his own agenda. So just as I'm always looking AWAY from where the writers seem to be leading us, I suggest we do the same with Locke's character. I've said many times that I think the paranormal aspects of the show are the hook, and they're great from a writers standpoint because they don't have to be completely explained. But the fact is most of what we've seen could still be explained by science and pseudo-science down the road at the end, and I think Locke is one of the characters who really seems to be pushing the paranormal agenda with most of the survivors. He's almost using the mysteries of the island to create a new religious or spiritual belief system about the island itself, kind of like a mini-religion. And many scholars think the goal of most religions is to maintain social control over the people who believe in them.

So if Locke can use the fear of the mysteries of the island to maintain certain controls over the other survivors, it serves his agenda quite nicely. If he can instill fear in them about the thing in the woods that he survived, that empowers him to a degree. If he can control their movements out of fear of attack from the others, keeping most people in a limited area between the beach and the caves, then he is able to wander off and do what he wants. Again, this is all just speculation, maybe Locke was never there at all, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me.

Now before some of you get your panties in a bind, I know the writers have said that "no one who has ever been on the island has ever gotten off" or something to that degree, but I'm not sure I'm buying that. There could be degrees of truth to that statement. If it were completely true, then that would mean that every single person that ever worked on the island as a contractor to build the radio tower and install the civil defense buildings and whatever else is there never got off. I highly doubt that the military would just keep sending army engineers to an island to survey and prep for the construction of what we know is now there if they'd lost contact with every single group they sent in.

Communications Officer: "General McGreavy sir? We lost contact with another unit of Army engineers and independent military contractors. It was the ones we had dispatched to that island in the Pacific that the DOD had requested to prep for those top secret experiments for that Level 5 Project that's supposed to be a joint US Navy and Air Force testing facility. That's our third team thats gone missing there in the last month, what should we do, sir?"

General McGreavy: "Send in another one!"

Now I may get crucified for saying this, but I for one am open to the possibility that at some point, to protect the mysteries of the show from people like us correctly guessing what's going on, I BELIEVE THE WRITERS MAY HAVE TO INTENTIONALLY LIE TO OR MISDIRECT US. There I said it. It could be one thing or a couple things, but I'm not going to count it out. They're writers. Their job isn't to not lie to us, it's to keep us watching. If that means a little well placed lie here or there, I wouldn't put it past them. I'm not saying we should just assume that everything they've ever said about the show was a lie, but come on now. They want this thing to go four or five years.

Bottom line, I'm way geeked to see what Locke's connection is with the hatch, and maybe he's never been anywhere near the island, but damn, six weeks is a long time to think about the possibilities.

[anarane saralonde]

"Red herrings" is what it's called....This is quite possibly THE best theory/speculation thread I've read so far.....

[Chance Gardener]

Deleted to promote harmony.




I like to watch

[hppydppy1]

look at locke's room real good. he is living bare minimum and looks like he could just take off and not leave much. (a man on the run? paranoid?) a toaster (with toast in it), a jar of peanut butter? (lol), bags of things (for a quick getaway?) and i would love to see the pictures on the wall and on the desk/table in the foreground. the geiger counter is so key. why? coyote, you are great. and so are the rest of you. now, what i get is this story is a combination of:
philadelphia experiment meets lost horizon meets on the beach meets ....any more? i suppose i could think it was a nuclear experiment gone awry causing some kind of mutations (danielle being there for 16 yrs, so how long before her was this hatch? and the mutations could have happened over these many years.) does danielle know about the hatch? in the movie "on the beach", australia is the only country left after a world wide nuclear war. then it is there waiting for the nuclear cloud to wipe them out at the end. i thought about co-ordinates with these numbers. glad someone resaerched them and found this all out. this is all so intense! locke i not really old enough to be from ww11, but i bet he has been to the island before or he knows so very much about it. that is why he is a survivalist and has a geiger counter. he is paranoid and watches his back. he was involved somehow and knows too much. maybe he was paralyzed on purpose as to punish him. somehow he managed to get on this plane and get to the island he knows so much about. why would he tell anyone? that would blow his cover and destroy his world. he knows the powers and possibly he was paralyzed through some kind of hypnosis and the crash got him outof it and he was able to walk. he did not react excitedly about his being able to walk. as if he knew he would walk. sorry, getting off the track. is there a geiger counter on the island? i must have missed it if so. and if there is radiation or some kind of alter-energy (for lack of a better description), then the compass would be off as it was shown. another thing locke was not interested in telling them about it. perhaps he is a scientist? part of this experiment? very intelligent, a future thinker, powerful parrables (sp.?)and philosophy, and advice. definitely honed in survival tactics. i keep thinking of what he said to boone..."question is how NOT to open it..." (when boone askes "how do we open it?" they are talking about the hatch).
so what is under/down in it is not a very good thing to seek out. can radiation penetrate metal? if not, then it can be contained in the hatch? along with the mutations if any? if these numbers are co-ordinates, then why didn't rousseau broadcast them? and how was she able to broadcast and let this tower transmit for 16 yrs? i want those batteries! as for the cd emblem, that would definitely date things. also bringing up a theory of some team trying to fix a wrong or rescue others. maybe ethan was a "child" of something under there? then cast out? also, i was thinking about the movie "the final countdown" about the uss nimitz disappearance into a time warp.
"It is 1980 and the USS Nimitz puts to sea off of Pearl Harbor for routine exercises. After encountering a strange storm and losing all contact with the US Pacific Fleet, nuclear war with the Soviet Union is assumed and the USS Nimitz arms herself for battle. However, after encountering Japanese Zero scout planes and finding Pearl Harbor filled with pre-World War II battleships, it is realized that the storm the Nimitz went through caused the ship to travel back in time: to December 6th, 1941".
they are going to launch their nuke bombs, and their only arms are nuke bombs to fight the zeros. just another time warp movie, like phil. exper.

[teaspoons]

I see some references to the geiger counter in here, so just as an FYI, if the sickness the Danielle refers to is radiation sickness from some source on the Black Rock here are some symtoms we should be on the look out for:

Symptoms:
Nausea and vomiting
Diarrhea
Skin burns (redness, blistering)
Weakness, fatigue, exhaustion, fainting
Dehydration
Inflammation of exposed areas (redness, tenderness, swelling, bleeding)
Hair loss
Ulceration of the oral mucosa
Ulceration of the esophagus, stomach or intestines
Vomiting blood
Bloody stool
Bleeding from the nose, mouth, gums, and rectum
Bruising
Sloughing of skin
Open sores on the skin

[hppydppy1]

yuck...not pleasant at all. and for the black rock? like a monolith? i thought at first it was lava, but it is too significant.
the tower is on the rock? a power source?

[faketree]

hppydppy, punctuation or paragraph breaks. pick one or the other because your post is hard to read without them.

coyote, i'm very curious about the cable/wire and i've decided to do a lot more research as to what it could be and why it would be there.

the thing that seems the strangest to me is why it would just be laying on the beach and not be either buried in the ground or lifted off the ground for protection. if it is such an important wire it seems reckless to just leave it laying on the beach for boars/polar bears/tree monsters (i still think its a snake) to take bites at it.

the other thing that i think is involved with the cable are the tides. i only remember one part of one of the shows where the tides became a problem because it seemed the beach was erroding at an incredibly fast pace. this prompted them to move the beach camp up a ways on the beach. but it doesnt seem like anything more has happened with the tides.

combining with the theory that the island may be moving and how oddly the cable is just laid on the beach, what if is attached to some kind of anchor/heavy object to control the movement of the island?

i don't know but i'm going to be spending all day today googling and reading to find out about this cable.

[1happyphantom]

On the islands of Mangareva, Reao,Pukarua, and Tureia which fall within that cicle on the map...it is reported that there were fallout shelters never used. Here is a blurb I found on greenpeace's site about the testing done in French Polynesia.

In 1963, the French Governor of Tahiti, M Grimald claimed 'Not a single particle of radioactive fallout will ever reach an inhabited island'. But immediately after the first atmospheric tests, radiation was detected as far away as Samoa, Fiji and New Zealand. According to testimony from people affected by the tests collected and published by Greenpeace, higher rates of cancer, birth abnormalities and other illnesses have been experienced by people in French Polynesia since testing began.

The environmental safety of testing nuclear weapons underground at Moruroa has been the subject of major controversy and concern. Moruroa and its sister test site at Fangataufa are water permeable coral atolls on basalt, now containing several Chernobyls worth of radioactivity. Testing threatens the geological stability of these fragile and vulnerable environments and makes leakage of large quantities of radionuclides into the marine environment an ever present threat.

Since 1975, more than 130 nuclear warheads have been expolded in deep shafts in the atoll, resulting in huge cavities that fill with molten rock and radioactive debris. Because of the fracturing of the rock, some radioactivity leaks into the surrounding areas through venting or seepage.

While the French authorities have argued that testing is safe, several scientific missions to the atoll - all of which have had severely limited access to the site - have raised serious questions about its ability to contain the radioactivity released by underground tests.

In 1981, a mission led by French geologist Haroun Tazieff issued a warning about the geological stability of the atoll in the long-term if nuclear weapons testing continued. In 1983, a New Zealand-Australia-Papua New Guinea mission found elevated levels of tritium, and severe fissuring of the atoll and subsidence of more than one metre in parts of the atoll. In 1987, Commandant Jacques Cousteau found short-lived radionuclides such as caesium 134 and iodine 131 in the Moruroa lagoon, indicating leakage from test explosions was already occurring. He filmed spectacular cracks and fissures in the atoll as well as submarine slides and subsidence, and described the impact of testing on the atoll as creating 'premature and accelerated ageing... which explains.to a great extent, the next move of the largest nuclear tests to Fangataufa atoll.' In 1988, French officials announced that larger tests would be exploded from then on at Fangataufa

[Hodgepodge]

Coyote1066, it doesn't look like you've gotten any sleep in the last few days. You've really been working on this theory, and have come up with new data in support. The maps and the computations definitely ring true. Adding your info to Pinnerman's P.E. theory also holds the readers attention. And, I like the idea of bringing Locke into the equation, although it does bring about a few questions, and or, thoughts. These questions aren't necessarily for you, but for anyone in the thread.

At what point do you suppose Locke's been on the island before? He doesn't look old enough to have served in WWII. If Locke is aware of the P.E., how do you imagine he'd get back to the island?

Someone else in this thread mentioned the movie, The Final Countdown, which I've seen. Pretty good movie if I say so myself. Even in this instance, Locke knowing that at a certain time and place this occurrence would happen again, how do we put him on that plane? Remember, he was trying to go on an Australian Walkabout.

Don't get me wrong! I love the idea of incorporating Locke into this combined theory. I believe he knows a lot more about the island than he's letting on. But, getting him on the island the first time, then off, then getting him back on. Help me with that!

[1happyphantom]

Don't we also have a hint from Abrams about....




SPOILER










how many people have ended up on the island but none have gotten off???










SPOILER OVER

[MonsterEatsPilot]

Coyote,

Per your request, some photos of a LORAN station (you will need to scroll down some)...

Please keep in mind this is in Alaska but this should help you visualize...

209.165.152.119/spruce_cape/ (http://209.165.152.119/spruce_cape/)

Good work!

Now go get some rest

;-)

-P

[1happyphantom]

Hey...could the cable be an Echelon cable...and under sea cable used to intercept radio transmissions?? This apparently started around the end of WW2.

[Gambit980]

if you are doing research on the cable you might want to check out this post Max's Cable theory (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=778.topic) it has a lot of interesting ideas.

[LostinTrinity]

There was a thread in GDA several weeks ago about the time of the crash. Basically if you believe the plane took off some time around/after noon in Australia (Sun was supposed to leave the airport at 11:15) and you flew East(/northeast?) at least 6 hours, wouldn't it be almost if not completely dark by then? But yet when the plane starts to break up it is clearly bright daylight. When I saw that post it made me think of Pin's Philadelphia theory.

[melostmo]

Hey...could the cable be an Echelon cable...and under sea cable used to intercept radio transmissions?? This apparently started around the end of WW2.

hi, I don't think we know when the cable was laid, but I will agree with u on it's concept.. BUT, like I have asked several times,,doesn't it seem odd that "smart" dudes like JACK, KATE, SAYID, LOCKE ,, would not of tapped into it by now,,
REASON... these folks are NOT NORMAL...
and there lies the key to the whole story

and dat's all she wrote:hat

[MonsterEatsPilot]

I was thinking more along the lines of early undersea communication cables... LORAN stations used these to communicate with the mainland.

On Craphole Island we know we have:

1.) A cable running into the sea (seen)

2.) A radio tower by Black Rock (told to us by Danielle)

3.) And a bunker (seen, not completely, but very thoughfully developed here in this topic)

LORAN stations use all 3 of these componenets.

ECHELON cable? I have not heard about this before. Oh... Wait...

www.whatreallyhappened.co...helon.html (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/ECHELON/echelon.html)

Well that's pretty darn interesting...

I was thinking something more like:

collections.ic.gc.ca/cans...b/tech.htm (http://collections.ic.gc.ca/canso/earlycab/tech.htm)

But I will admit ECHELON cable is MUCH more exciting.

More fodder for the fire...

Cheers!

-P

[zubazpants]

Coyote1066, I am curious about the map you used to show the path of flight 815. I can't tell what kind of map projection is being used there, but I was just thinking back to geography class here and wondering if the line showing the flight path should be curved to follow a great circle path. If that was the case it may adjust some of your calculations.

Of course I am no geographer, and I think you mentioned that you worked in aviation at some point, so you may have already taken this into consideration. Sorry to bother if thats the case.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I am leaving this thread to you brainiacs but I do want to say that it's fascinating and thoroughly refreshing after what I've seen lately. The entire thread is reminiscent of why I became so enamored of this place. Your ideas have renewed my interest in coming to theories and have sparked a creative and scientific challenge on this board in general. I always like to feel the invigorating spark of awakened brain cells.

Keep going, guys. You're doing great.

Oh... and if you'd like something moved back here from the archives, let me know. It's not a problem. Just email me.

[Hodgepodge]

Purrkins, as usual you bring knowledge and data to any and all threads you join. That's one reason I like to read your posts. And what you've brought to this one, with the idea of the Loran station, only goes to prove the idea that you guys are on to something. Everything fits!

[Homer Noodleman]

A few points...

The numbers aren't the coordinates. Danielle said her group determined that. For those that don't know, latitude is extremely easy to measure and blue water sailors (at least the ones that navigate) know pretty much how to do the measurement even if only crudely. Also, if their equipment was down on the ship they would have dead reconed and still had a fairly good idea of where they were located.

Midway is still an active military base. It is located on a coral atoll consisting of two postage stamped-sized islands with about a gazillion "gooney birds" wandering all over them. Has, or at least had, a great little beer truck that pulled up so the sailors could get snockered during refueling.

You're mixing up civil defense with WWII coast watchers. Civil defense was a volunteer civilian organization. A military base would not use them.

I don't think it is a fallout shelter -- this is Hollywood, do you really think they can resist underground tunnels with miles of man-sized ventilation ducts to crawl around in?

Anybody of Danielle's generation would have known the symptoms of radiation sickness. Heck -- I still remember how to wash the fall=out off my Wonder Bread before eating it if the Big One drops. Duck and cover. ;)

[Coyote1066]

Wow! Lots of new info to process! I'll put on my research cap and do some diggin and theorizing.

I confess that I'm not sure where to post these days. We're certainly tackling a lot of ideas. I don't want to take the thunder away from anyone else's threads or do a bunch of cross-posting. I'll have to think about this.

Anyway, sorry if this is brief but I'm going to take the good advice and get some rest. |I

Before I do, Zubazpants made a good point. No, I'm not sure if that was a flat map or not, so yes, there is certainly some built in error...just trying to approximate anyway. Yes, I did maintain aircraft but I wasn't an aviator. I worked on air-to-air radar weapons systems, radios, navigational systems, instruments and electronic warfare/countermeasures...basically everything electronic (called Avionics). Most of my time was on F-15C Eagles but I worked on the C-130 Hercules after I got done with active duty and joined the reserves.

Here are a few links I wanted to throw out last night/this morning, but I forgot:

Fun site that tracks research vessels (LIVE) throughout the world with an interactive map: Tracker (http://www.sailwx.info/shiptrack/researchships.phtml)

A UNESCO website that will answer any ocean science or research questions: UNESCO (http://ioc.unesco.org/oceanportal/)

A site with really good pictures of vessels and research equipment (with cables ;) ): Pix (http://www.oceansatlas.com/unatlas/about/research/other/engineering.html)

A map of all (?) the trans-oceanic communication cables...it's a little hard to read because they want you to buy it: Cable map (http://www.telegeography.com/products/map_cable/index.php)

Also, if you get the time and want to see something funny go to...The Rockall Times (http://www.therockalltimes.co.uk/rockall/picture-gallery.html). Just something for the black rock theories. It's a real "island" near the UK with some familiar qualities:

"The rock causes a magnetic anomaly, resulting in wild fluctuations to ships compasses. Rockall and the reefs and waters around it have also been the scene of disasters, some as recently as this year. In 1904 the Danish emigrant ship Norge was wrecked there on its way to New York, with the loss of 600 lives. In 1824 the Helen of Dundee foundered on reefs at Rockall and 'the crew left most of the passengers to drown, including seven women and six children'."

The wrecks are most certainly caused by normal navigational hazards.

[Longfellow]

Maybe Locke really was a Colonel before his memory was wiped clean, as in his backstory episode, where he is called Colonel by his colleague. Also, kind of a stretch, but sometimes Boone's facial features and expressions resemble Locke's.

A number of interesting things also point to the radiation/virus type thing:

1) Claire's baby stops moving and starts again
2) Ethan's extreme strength
3) Locke regaining use of his legs
4) Charlie not dying despite being hanged
5) Hurley not losing weight
6) Jack's dead father walking around
7) Perhaps, Walt's dog being found alive
8 ) The difficulty in killing the marshall (ok, a stretch)


I'm with you guys, I think that this is a military experiement of some sort gone awry.

Hmmm. Maybe they crashed on Fantasy Island. :rollin

[Coyote1066]

Da plane! Da plane!

If I see any midgets I'm going to have an aneurysm. :rollin

[RunLoganRun]

Quoting Pinnerman -

I think Locke is one of the characters who really seems to be pushing the paranormal agenda with most of the survivors. He's almost using the mysteries of the island to create a new religious or spiritual belief system about the island itself, kind of like a mini-religion. And many scholars think the goal of most religions is to maintain social control over the people who believe in them.

Yes, absolutely ! I am reposting one of my earlier posts about Locke and the way that he behaves...

Posted: 2/16/05 11:20 pm
Re: overlooking the obvious
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Previous Quote:

Theoretically, if he is in fact building up his own little army, it would be expected that we will see him stepping in to help additional castaways in the near future....

My Thoughts:

Well, remember when cults attempt to recruit new members, they always are extremely friendly/helpful to people - they always go after misfits - and we have a bunch of them on this island. The 'Cult of the Mind's Eye' is born... let the brainwashing begin.

[Oswald]

Coyote

Been out of the loop for a day, but here are two posts dissecting the contents of Locke's room.

government seal in his room (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm25.showMes sage?topicID=25.topic)

Locke: A few visual clues (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm25.showMes sage?topicID=49.topic)

[jaystao]

This thread has gotten pretty big but I thought I could add something. Has anyone thought about the mining history of the Pacific as a basin for all sorts of mineral and metal deposits. Many islands are made from volcanic activity and these are fraught with primal elements. I was researching lithium for another thread when I came across this.

"Another important use for lithium compounds is in Edison nickel iron alkaline storage cells. These cells are used in batteries for storage trucks, mine locomotives and portable lighting equipment and in stand by or emergency power supplies systems."

The equipment in the French womens hut (particularly the batteries) are reminiscent of this description, but what intrigued me was the idea of mining equipment of an older era. I did some research and it seems that new Caledonia has a lot of mining history for military regimes and a history of waste being simply deposited in the local environment. A lot of industry was occurring in the pacific due to world war two and there was also a lot research being done by petroleum and mineral based companies for potential mining prospects (including the rubber industry).

When the military bases in Hawaii were being built they had to ship a lot of resources from various companies across the pacific. Installations had to be made across the pacific to accommodate this industry which was overseen as much by military regimes as the companies who were shipping them.

Was there some kind of mining operation going on on the island? And did they simply dump there waste into the environment? Probably not as there would be tell tale signs of any large scale industry (mind you, a bomb shelter would require as much and time could erode much of the evidence anyway). Maybe if there were a smaller more select mining operation going on in the island, the unearthed elements from such a 'dig' might eventually seep into the environment causing sickness or poisoning of some sort (as was suggested with the lithium thread). Maybe this expidition found something that was potentially useful for a military/scientific endeavor.

[1happyphantom]

Looking through the "Locke a few visual clues" thread and seeing the lightened screencap of Locke's room.....does the logo on the rifle case/softsided guitar case look like a POW/MIA patch or sticker? Not that it necessarily means that Locke is a Vietnam vet, but it's possible.

[minnesotaadvocate]

Coyote1066 wrote:
What if the island not only became invisible but moved to the new coordinate location? Didn't the ships supposedly used during the experiment "teleport" too? What if the researchers then tried to send out the coordinates...in other words saying "hey we're over here!"

I didn't see this mentioned before, but you guys wrote a LOT of pages! So I apologize if this has already been asked:

Wasn't there an episode where the tide came in unnaturally? Where they had to move the beach camp to keep everything from being washed away?

Could that be consistent with an island move to a new location where the tides are different? Or maybe the island sits deeper in the water at the new location?

[yung23]

like a lot, I'm sorry if this too has been pondered, sorry for the numbers thing too.

What if the numbers are like everyone now seems to think are co-ordinates. But NOT for the HATCH, but for the control centre/ hub to open that hatch ?

I remember a post/rumor about Locke finding a computer in the hatch, what if it's another location where he finds this computer ?

It seems like a good back up defence system right ?

&
I keep thinking about how "the entity as shannon " asked boone what they had found, and when he said a metal thing...
" IT " asked " Like a door ?" in a really creepy " oh-uh, they found it" kind of way....

We have also thought there may be two forces at work here, Now I really think there is a tie-in with this Civil Defence bunker idea.

I can't wait to see how Locke can walk....
how many more weeks ?

wheres a friggin time warp when you need one ?

[Coyote1066]

Hey guys...I'm alive but kinda in a quandry.

I don't want to lose any information but the post is getting big and I've noticed a few folks missing some things when they reply.

Any suggestions on how to clean things up? Break off key ideas into their own threads with the first post being a summary of what everyone has said about it?

It's really my fault. I started getting so carried away that instead of making a new post I just kept going in the same one.

Hey this is post #100...yea me! :)

I'm probably going to be away from the boards for awhile...I'll check when I can. Only a day or three.

[LoStMyMiNd]

I think the insignias are just something Sayid has seen and has attached them to Danielle. This is due to Sayid's delusional state of mind. Danielle is probably in one of Sayid's back stories

[Coyote1066]

Before I forget, Dhb88 has a map he wanted to contribute.

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/lostmap.jpg

I did this up a while ago. The flight path is the great circle route from Sydney-LA. Red circles are 200 mile radius which would be about the limit of the radar. Outside of this the pilot would check in with air traffic eveyr hour or so on different high freq radios, but only other planes would see them on their radar. Turn around point is about the number of hours the
pilot said (I think its about 3000 miles. I did it a while ago so I don't
remember exactly). I tend to think its a fictional island, not a real place, but its a fun exercise.

Dhb88

He schooled me on Air Trafic procedures over the Pacific, nice! This map is a little different because it assumes the flight was 1000 mi off course from the original route. Also, I'm not sure how he calculated the ships radius, but the end result is pretty similar. I have to give him credit for doing this work first. Thanks Dhb!

Also, if anyone has any relevant pictures they would like to have uploaded to this thread, but can't, then please message me and we can work something out.

[DIGITALpH]

I know I'm starting to get "off topic" from the original thread, but...

hi, I don't think we know when the cable was laid, but I will agree with u on it's concept.. BUT, like I have asked several times,,doesn't it seem odd that "smart" dudes like JACK, KATE, SAYID, LOCKE ,, would not of tapped into it by now,,

This REALLY bugged me in the "Numbers" episode. The men follow the cable into the ground, then forget about it! They just walk off, and never mention it again. No seems to ask, "Why is there a cable? What kind of cable is this? Power? Communications? Or maybe it's anchoring something in place? Maybe we should figure out what it does, and how to use it to our benefit? What will happen if we cut the cable or break into it? Will someone from civilization come out to fix it, and we'll get rescued?"

Do they think it's "normal" for LARGE insulated cable to just be lying around tiny isolated tropical islands?

Aargh!!!

[Cassis1]

Wow...what an utterly fabulous thread. Although Coyote is right, maybe a little TOO far-ranging...my head is spinning! So a few random observations about some of the possibilities raised in this thread.

1. Re Civil Defense insignia: This ties in remarkably well with another recent comprehensive theory...

p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...=1&stop=20 (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1418.topic&start=1&stop=20)

The key to that theory is that the island is being used to isolate something big, scary, and malevolent, with some psychic powers. The poster of that theory goes for a mystical answer, but it could just as easily work with a pseudo-scientific one--the "beast" could be a captured alien (shades of Walt's comic book! 0] ) or some kind of genetic/radioactive mutation. However, in any case it would make the island a DEFENSIVE operation, not a military or quasi-military operation, hence the CD insignia on some of the surviving equipment. It could be dated anytime from WWII to the early 1960s (cold war).

2. Re Locke being previously on the island: I haven't read the Locke thread since I am trying to keep myself unspoiled except for confirmation of the BCD (and if you think that trying to figure out the meaning of the numbers is hard, try THAT). But in case anyone hasn't brought it up in that forum, here is David Fury's original quote from way back in September:

The island has been around for millennia, and many people have found themselves on it, and as far as we know, nobody has ever gotten off.

Emphasis added. :eek Maybe we are about to learn more.

3. Re difference between Danielle's ship's radius and the 4/8/15/16/23/42 coordinate: Didn't Danielle change her story somewhat in Numbers? In Solitary, she didn't mention receiving the numbers transmission. So, did the storm take them off course before or after they got the transmission? In the former case, they could have sailed on for a few days more following the transmission, which could bring them near the coordinate while remaining within the 815 radius.

Of course Homer Noodleman makes a good point that Danielle claims the number sequence isn't a coordinate, and I guess she would know. Which brings me to my own little pet variation of the Philly Experiment...

4. Re why the island is uncharted/invisible: The Philadelphia Experiment was based on Unified Field Theory, and we know that something is screwing with the electromagnetics of Craphole Island (thanks to Sayid's experiments and Locke's "obviously defective" compass). What if, rather than being the subject of a huge-scale Philly-like Experiment, the island is a PREEXISTING phase-shifter? Either through some fluke of nature, or due to some much earlier interference (ie. aliens/Chariots of the Gods), the island has been a working Philly Experiment for hundreds if not thousands of years. In other words, Brigadoon.

In this hypothesis, Hurley's number sequence is the repeating phase sequence of the island. It has a 66-year period, phasing in and out at predictable times and repeating the pattern. (I have to drop 42 for this to work, but I don't feel bad; since that number is always separated from the others, it can be seen as some additional project designation or check digit.) Researchers first learned about the possibility of the "ghost island" when searching for Amelia Earhart after her disappearance in 1937. They were able to get a rough idea of the phases from legends of other Pacific islanders, and when the island next reappeared, after its long phase of 23 years, in 1960 or 1961, they were ready. At this point they moved people on to the island and constructed the bunker/hatch as part of a defense operation--either to isolate something nasty (see item 1), because how better to isolate something than to kick it out of the world for years at a time, or to investigate colonization, because how better to survive a nuclear war than to be in another plane for years at time. The island went through its four-, eight-, and fifteen-year phases before reappearing sixteen years ago, when Danielle and her team were caught.

(I have more on this; I was gonna do a main post but it seems to fit here as well as anywhere, I guess.)

[azteclady]

Cassis, as far as I know, you are the first one to point out the inconsistency in Danielle's story! (I need to go check the Numbers discussion thread...) Great catch!!!

I love this!


Beto
Got a question/problem/complaint? Read the entire Welcome (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm31) forum first, then PM me.

[Gambit980]

Cassis1:eek wow you know how to put things together. I once again am learning something new, which is why I am so addicted to this board.

A ghost island that shifts from place to place fits my theories. The numbers being a mechanism to tell where the island goes next also makes sense. Instead of a sign stating where you are in a fixed position you would need to have a sequence that shows where it is going to be as well as where it is at present time. They mark the hatch with it because it is the quasi name for the island. The radio tower was a means to show other people how to get to the island. Then the numbers sequence is a description of a supernatural thing. That is why the numbers may be cursed.

You have so blown my mind. This almost explains everything for me. Except the correlation between each of the characters. Oh well it's still pays off for me.:D

[Maybishudbahippy]

I feel like I've been missing out on a lot. Amazing research, Coyote! :D
However, Locke seems to young to have served in World War II, as Hodge said. This is just random speculation, but what if Locke's parent, or grandparent, or guardian, or whoever he was raised by served during World War II and mysteriously died, or vanished, or something along the lines of that. This unfortunately tore the soul of poor young Locke apart. He feels happy on the island because he feels some connection to his lost relative. This would explain why the Locke-story and the hatch are intertwined. Perhaps his relative died on this island.
I know, a bit out there, but just some thoughts.

[RedShirt]

Pinnerman, I always enjoy reading your post. Been along time since ive replied to one though. Still cant say im on board with ya about it related to Philadelphia Experiment’s but I do lean towards a man made/man unleashed cause.

Anyways in regards to your ideas of Locke connected with the hatch, Locke and his encounter with the “thing”, and the "no one who has ever been on the island has ever gotten off" spin.

Perhaps locke was involved with some type of experiment, something that made both the “thing” and the hatch familiar. Perhaps he has even spent time in a previous jungle with that prior involvement which allows for his current “skill” level in surviving there. But maybe this island is not where he had his prior experience, Maybe his prior “lab” was elsewhere and thought destroyed, perhaps locke and others had been working on FTL travel, artificial worm holes, multiverse, etc. etc. and had some kind of major catastrophe. Taking into account the writers love for intertwining back stories maybe we found out that that’s how Locke lost the use of his legs in the first place, causing depression and a downward spiral that lead to a life as a lowly worker bee. LOL Anyways perhaps in the process of what they were working on the lab “traveled” to where it is now, such as crossing to a new multiverse and merging with the island, LOL maybe even the island itself comes and goes between multiverses allowing it to be there sometimes but gone other preventing it from being found. Perhaps the islands full time residents are some of his past collogues who have been trapped there and have gone mental. However, then one has to wonder why locke didn’t recognize ethan?.

If the “lab” had been “transported” to the island then it would allow for locke to be familiar with the “lab” and “thing” but also never had been on, thus have left the island thus satisfying the writers "no one who has ever been on the island has ever gotten off" comment. Also like you I don’t recall the exact phrasing of that comment. What if its just a trick phrasing like “no one ever walked away from the island” yeah locke didn’t walk away he “wheeled” away in his chair! LMAO

Im on board with ya on some of your thoughts of locke, I tend to treat em like one magicians hand, I watch em, but hey whats that other hand doing? Locke does represent a control factor for both the islanders and the fans LOL. The real question is will he turn out to be the “red herring” or a “Freudian Cigar”.

[Hodgepodge]

Cassis1 says:
3. Re difference between Danielle's ship's radius and the 4/8/15/16/23/42 coordinate: Didn't Danielle change her story somewhat in Numbers? In Solitary, she didn't mention receiving the numbers transmission. So, did the storm take them off course before or after they got the transmission? In the former case, they could have sailed on for a few days more following the transmission, which could bring them near the coordinate while remaining within the 815 radius.
Spooky should have the transcript of Numbers completed soon. Then we'll have a way to compare the exact dialog between the two episodes.

[Coyote1066]

Homer,

A few points...

The numbers aren't the coordinates. Danielle said her group determined that. For those that don't know, latitude is extremely easy to measure and blue water sailors (at least the ones that navigate) know pretty much how to do the measurement even if only crudely. Also, if their equipment was down on the ship they would have dead reconed and still had a fairly good idea of where they were located.

Sorry. I rewatched both ep 9 and ep 18 and this is never said. She did say they continued to try to figure it out until the sickness started. Also I believe, and I don't know if I've stated this yet so forgive me, that the island was only at the new location for a limited amount of time...maybe ~16 yrs then returned to it's original location before Danielle or Flight 815 arrived. This could explain why the field weakened to let out a signal...the Island was shifting back to it's original location.

Midway is still an active military base. It is located on a coral atoll consisting of two postage stamped-sized islands with about a gazillion "gooney birds" wandering all over them. Has, or at least had, a great little beer truck that pulled up so the sailors could get snockered during refueling.

Oh, absolutely. I think someone was just throwing out ideas. If you were stationed there I'm sorry to say it closed.
"NAF Midway Island underwent operational closure on 30 September 1993".

You're mixing up civil defense with WWII coast watchers. Civil defense was a volunteer civilian organization. A military base would not use them.

Yes, orginally WWII was the idea but somewhere around page 4 or 5 I confessed that this was most likely wrong and that the Cold War was a better fit. Yes the Civil Defense of WWII which ceased operation in 1942-43 (?) was volunteer. A new organization, bearing the same insignia, called the FCDA (Federal Civil Defense Agency) was started in the late '50s (I'll check exact date). This was not a volunteer agency and was tasked with many of the roles of the modern FEMA organization in addition to nuclear attack prepardness. It was responsible for designing/creating nuclear disaster equipment and supplies. I assume that with either the Army Corp of Engineers or Navy Seabees they may have had a hand on the island.

I don't think it is a fallout shelter -- this is Hollywood, do you really think they can resist underground tunnels with miles of man-sized ventilation ducts to crawl around in?

Perhaps it isn't a solitary structure...still not sure. How about a series of fallout shelters connected by passages? If I was working at the radio tower I sure as heck wouldn't want to have to hike two days (?) to get to the one that Locke found. When I was in the gulf we had bunkers all over the place so we would never be caught in the open...albeit ours were simple holes in the ground with sandbags around them.

Anybody of Danielle's generation would have known the symptoms of radiation sickness. Heck -- I still remember how to wash the fall=out off my Wonder Bread before eating it if the Big One drops. Duck and cover.

Total agreement.

Hope that helps clear things up a litte Homer. By the way, just make a new post instead of editing an old one...I almost missed your comments.

[Cassis1]

As a matter of fact, Spooky has the Numbers transcript up today. :)

Here's Danielle to Sayid in Solitary:

Rousseau: Our vessel was 3 days out of Tahiti when our instruments malfunctioned. It was night, a storm, the sounds. The ship slammed into rocks, ran aground, the hull breached beyond repair. So, we made camp, dug out this temporary shelter. Temporary. Nearly 2 months we survived here, 2 months before--


And here's her version to Hurley in Numbers:

Danielle [lowering her rifle]: Our ship picked up a transmission, a voice repeating those numbers. We changed course to investigate. After we shipwrecked my team continued to search for the transmission source. It was weeks before we found the radio tower.

Hurley: There's a radio tower on this island?

Danielle: Yes, up by the black rock. Some of us continued to search for the meaning of those numbers while we waited for rescue. But then the sickness came. When my team was gone, I went back up to the tower and changed the transmission.

They're not even really very close. It's possible to fudge it that they had been following the transmission from near Tahiti for three days but...it sounds to me as if she was lying through her teeth to Sayid. (Because there is independent backup for the version she told Hurley--Leonard and Toomey also heard the numbers transmission.)

On another note, I can't find a line in Numbers where Danielle rules out the sequence being latitude/longitude coordinates. It's implied when she says that they tried to figure it out for weeks but couldn't...but she doesn't actually say the words. Maybe they were just REALLY BAD scientists who couldn't do basic navigational equations?

[Coyote1066]

Cassis1,

Thanks for the transcript heads-up...I was just there an hour ago...it must have just gone up.

Three days at night? I guess I need to adjust my ship distance calculation a little and update the map.

I'm not 100% sure she is lying. Consider this fictional series of events:

Day 1: Ship departs for original destination.
Day 2: Signal picked up. Although not a distress call the team is intrigued and decides to alter course after the ship's crew explains it isn't some sort of navigational aid that they've heard before.
Day 3 (late afternoon): Crew reports instrument malfunction or anomolus behavior. Rather than change course late in the day they decided to hold route until the morning...a storm looked like it was moving in which could hamper attempts at astro navigation that night.
Day 3 (night): Storm hits...we know the rest.

Also, from what I could find in my previous research, many of these research vessels have a crew in addition to the scientists. I guess a really small, low budget expedition could have combined the two. I'm actually giving you some ammo, because this crew might have been able to figure out the coordinates...maybe...but they didn't have google.com! :D However, if this was the lat/long of where the island had gone to and then returned from, I'm sure any sailor would say "That can't possibly be what those numbers are...they're no where near our last position."

Another interesting thing that your quote mentions is that the ship ran aground and had a hull breach. Doesn't say it sunk. Maybe it's still out there alongside the Minnow...add parts from the plane crash and you might have a better boat than Michael's.

I'm going to look at the Danielle shelter screen caps again and start trying to identify items, like Pinnerman did...I'll cut-n-paste his comments from his thread. I encourage other to do the same.

[spooky]

Just so you guys know, if you go to the transcripts through Drabauer's Index they're usually up a day or two before the transcripts on the main lost-tv page.

Coyote: I agree. I don't think the versions of Danielle's story are necessarily mutually exclusive. She might not have thought the numbers were relevant to the story when she told Sayid, especially because they apparently never figured them out. Maybe she only realized/believed their significance when Hurley mentioned them.

About the ship: I couldn't find it, but if memory serves, someone had a screen cap of one of Danielle's maps that shows the ship run aground on a small island off the main island.

[RunLoganRun]

Spooky - Yes, there was a past thread with enlarged photos of the map. I can not find it either - I wonder why ? Anyways, the map definitely showed a small bay area that had about 3 or 4 smaller islands in a row - almost creating an enclosed bay area. The shipwreck was marked as being on the outer edges of this bay. Maybe, someone can enlarge the map once again. There was also a mysterious 'X' on another part of the map, above the shipwreck area.

Now that I think about it, the 'X' on the map may be the location of the hatch. Which means that whoever made the map knew about the hatch. Very interesting...

[Hodgepodge]

Cassis1 points out:
Rousseau: Our vessel was 3 days out of Tahiti when our instruments malfunctioned. It was night, a storm, the sounds. The ship slammed into rocks, ran aground, the hull breached beyond repair. So, we made camp, dug out this temporary shelter. Temporary. Nearly 2 months we survived here, 2 months before...


Pilot: 6 hours in. Our radio went out, no one could see us. We turned back to land in Fiji, by the time we hit turbulence we were 1000 miles off course. They're looking for us in the wrong place.

With the work going on here in this thread, and the I'm close to cracking the numbers... (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1477.topic), Danielle's conversation with Sayid bares revisiting.

I'd like to take certain points from this initial conversation, and compare it with what's known about flight 815. I've included the pilot's conversation with Jack as well.

Also, I'm going to postulate that the island and a small portion of the ocean surrounding it, has some type of invisible shield (see the, I'm close to cracking the numbers... link above).


Danielle says that their instruments malfunctioned. We don't know exactly what she means, but lets speculate.

Lets say you're sailing south, and sail into the shielded waters of the island. All of a sudden your compass goes haywire. That would definitely constitute an instrument malfunction. Now, we already know compasses don't act the way their suppose to on the island.

Flight 815, takes off from Sydney, destination Los Angeles. Our radio went out, no one could see us. Now, wouldn't you suppose that if you flew into the islands influence, you might incur the same type of malfunctions? The flights radio went dead. In the other thread, its thought that you wouldn't be able to use a radio to contact anyone outside the island, and I'm thinking radar too.

I remember when the pilot episode first aired. People were saying that if your radio went out, you still could be seen. Lets suppose that these are two distinct malfunctions. The radio goes out, then radar. Makes sense now, doesn't it?

Danielle continues. It was night. I can't remember who brought this up, but someone here thinks that with 815's flying time, it should've been night when they crashed.

Well, lets say it was! You're flying along at night, when you fly into our islands sphere of influence. Suppose, at that instant, night becomes day. Your radio fails, along with radar. You think, 'this can't be happening'! Wouldn't you think you were 1,000s of miles off course? Maybe the pilot was exactly where he was suppose to be, but didn't realize it?

She continues recounting her story to Sayid. A storm. Couldn't a storm at sea, be massive turbulence in the air? I don't know, but it makes sense.

Now the last point I want to make. The sounds. Its been proposed on the other thread, that opening and closing the "door/window" to the island, could possibly be the sound of the monster, or as I like to call it, "the thing in the woods".

Does any of this make sense?

[Gambit980]

Yes it does. The only thin I don't agree with is the 1000 miles off because it was suddenly daylight. I thought he had made a course correction and by that course correction he was a 1000 miles off. Great post thought. I do love it when people put everything together in one cohesive post :D

[Coyote1066]

Hi folks. My family is back in town so my time is a little tight right now. I should be able to add some new info this weekend.

About the map screencaps, go Kathy Fan's Post in General Discussion (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=2098.topic)

Maybe we can repost them here and discuss.

[Coyote1066]

Got some new info. I get off on tangents a lot but I think this could tie in with our earlier discussion of Locke knowing something about the island prior to arriving. As was mentioned previously in this thread, Locke had a geiger counter in his apartment that was a Civil Defense model, so I decided to get a closer look at some of his other items. Here are some pictures of his night stand:

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/locke1.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/locke2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/locke3.jpg

Several things caught my attention:

1) Medical device
2) White flag w/ red X
3) Mug or Beer Stein
4) Unidentified Flag w/ logo

I did some researching and this is what I came up with:

1) This is in fact a Hako-med (or Hakomed) muscle stimulating/pain relieving device. This one was tough. I zoomed in and could only make out what was either an "h, b, or k" and the possible vowels "a, e, or o". I got lucky on my second word guess with hako. I searched for the exact model but it appears to be an older one not currently on the market. The best picture I could find was this (the model in question is the bottom one):

http://home.comcast.net/~coyote10/hako.jpg

I had to ask myself "would someone crippled for four years still exercise their muscles if there was no hope of ever walking again?". If anyone knows someone with this type of injury, please fill me in. Otherwise read below where I sum this all up.

2) This flag was actually used by the Spanish between ~1500 and ~1780, basically during the height of their global exploration and conquest. It's proper name is the Cross of Burgundy. Visit the following links for a brief history of the flag:

Cross of Burgundy #1 (http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/spflag.htm)
Cross of Burgundy #2 (http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/es1506.html)
Cross of Burgundy #3 (http://www.fahnenversand.de/fotw/flags/pr_crbur.html)

Why on earth would he have this flag? Maybe if he lived in a state that was once a Spanish territory, but really? This is an odd flag. Again, I have a very wacky theory on this too.

3) I can't really come up with a 100% match on this. At first I thought it was the U.S. Army crest, but it's missing a couple key elements. On closer inspection it looks like maybe it's the Statue of Liberty with an American Flag on the right. Either way, I don't know what to make of it.

4) This one is pretty interesting. It's a white flag with black lettering and images. From what I can make out, it appears to have a scroll at the top, what could be a skull in the middle and a five letter word followed by a two letter word. The words could be reversed since I think we're seeing the flag from the back. My first thought was this was some kind of special forces "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" type of flag, but it isn't very clear. I just got the episode on DVD-R from a friend and I'm going to do a higher number of screen grabs in the hopes of getting a better look.

Okay, now the summing up part. I think the title for this particular scene should be "Delusional". Obviously the phone conversation itself falls into this catagory, but the other items give me a feel for Locke's state as well.

I think that a person with this type of injury would react in one of two ways:

a) Acceptance. The person always has hope but builds a new life.
b) Denial. Perhaps denial is too strong a word, but the person lets the hope of walking again override all other thoughts.

I think Locke falls into the "b" category, especially if it pans out that the medical device is something that wouldn't be used by someone in the "a" category. Regardless, I would expect someone in the "b" category to go through the following phases:

1) Exhaust conventional medical solutions
2) Exhaust un-conventional or experimental medical solutions
3) Exhaust superstitious or near-paranormal solutions
4) Grasp at straws

I think Locke was in 3 and about to enter 4. To explain myself let me just throw out this fictional series of events.

Having exhausted most avenues, Locke turns to researching every legend, myth or fable about miracle healing. Along with the more common stories he stumbles upon old legends dating from the Spanish exploration of the Pacific. The days of Magellan, Quiros and Mendana (who all sailed under the Cross of Burgundy), when all the islands of the South Pacific were unexplored by western civilization. Maybe, and this is totally fictional, he found mention of an incident where someone regained some motor function in a limb, as if by a miracle, on some remote, uncharted island. Not knowing exactly where this island is, Locke begins exhausting every method of finding this out...both conventional and paranormal. So that brings him to the walkabout, a desperate attempt to enter a state of enlightenment that will perhaps reveal what he longs to know. Having been denied the opportunity to do this he boards the plane and in a bizarre twist ends up on the very island he's been looking for.

So how does this tie in with the geiger counter, bomb shelters and the civil defense? Well, if he had a map of any of the Spanish explorers' routes he would likely know that many travelled through areas that later became "radioactive" due to tests, hence the geiger counter. The bomb shelter (?) could have been built for this very purpose (or something a lot more shady) and stocked with the civil defense items.

I'll post a map of the explorer's routes soon, but I can already tell you that many, if not all, of them did indeed pass through the shaded area of the map I previously posted.

Stepping back from what I just wrote, I think I might be the one who is delusional and grasping at straws. :D However I keeping thinking of what the show's creators said about each prop having a purpose (some mundane, others being clues) . Anyway, it was fun researching the items even if it all turns out to be bull$hit.

[Wynter Zera]

Great observations Coyote!

[faketree]

Great theory. Very well put together and researched. It all makes sense to me except for one thing. I believe someone has said nobody has ever gotten off the island. Don't know if that is fact or not. But if nobody has ever gotten off the island, it would make sense that a story about the island, or something specific about the powers of the island, would never have gotten off either.

Everything else is just outstanding.

Any way to find a spot for the numbers in your theory?

[thoughtform]

Coyote, great catch with these! It makes me so happy that there is still new stuff that we can look into. Unfortunately, my PC isn't the best, so all of your observations on the items there are really helpful. The Cross of Burgundy you say? Very interesting.... I'm gonna see what I can come up with and get back with some more (hopefully) info. Thanks!

[Coyote1066]

faketree,

The numbers are a problem. So is not leaving the island. I'll try to wing an answer.

The numbers may have really old origins, perhaps each new inhabitant of the island has continued to pass them down like some sort of religious artifact.

The person in my fictional tale could have stayed on the island once he discovered the "cure" went away upon trying to leave. Maybe he was a member of a shore party that also decided to stay while the rest of the crew remained on the ship and never set foot on land.

Either way it's still reaching. :D

You know, after all this I still haven't latched on to any particular theory. :( The detective work is actually the fun part!

[EponaLady]

Coyote,

Try the Culpeper flag for the unidentified flag. It is a flag of the American Revolution.

www.gadsden.info/Culpeper.html (http://www.gadsden.info/Culpeper.html)

In your screencap, you can "rty or death" and the rattlesnake between the "rty" and the "or death". The scroll at the top is the banner identifying the Culpeper Minute Men, but I certainly can't read it.

It is a pretty common flag. I think I had one when I was a kid. I got it when we visited Monticello or Mount Vernon or maybe some other historic site in Virginia.

[Coyote1066]

Thanks EponaLady! That's definitely it, great detective work!

It also explains the Cross of Burgundy a little better since it too is associated with early American history. So the three flags may have no significance other than to reinforce the "Locke is a Patriot" theme. I feel a little better about that now...I knew I was really reaching with the whole Spanish explorers theory. :D

[spooky]

Great work Coyote! What software do you use to zoom in on screen shots? I wish I could that...

I think your theory is creative and a lot of fun, and you always give us something to think about.

Just one little thing: from the description of the unit I found at the Hako-med website (http://www.electromedicine.com/products/proelecdt.html), it sounds like the machine is used more for pain relief. Locke also says "I know a lot more about pain than you think." I think he's using the machine to control pain control rather than to stimulate muscle because he refuses to accept his condition.

EponaLady, good one finding the flag!

[yung23]

we knew about the muscle stimulator, but great find with the flags ! However, Locke had always seemed like some sort of veteran.
It's all being answered soon...
hurry up, how many weeks to go now ?

Coyote, how do you get these screen shots anyway ?
Tivo fed to an all-in-wonder video card ?

[Coyote1066]

Yung and Spooky,

Yeah I built a media PC out of spare parts and a new capture card. Once I have it in .avi format I use a screen grab program to extract out 3-4 frames per second. This gives me some screens I haven't found on Lost-Media. I then dink around with the images using Paint Shop Pro and a bunch of sharpen filters. The ones I just posted are actually from Lost-Media since I didn't have that episode yet, but I did use PSP to clean up the zooms.

I forgot to mention that when you go to lost-media, make sure to click on the image you're looking at. If you do, a large (1276 x 766, 96dpi) image will pop up. I use these for the zooms since the definition is better. When I make my own I also try to shoot for this size since it makes zooming so much easier.

Ooops, I didn't know the medical equipment was already identified. I enjoy researching the props so much I'm thinking of making a website this summer with just screen caps and possible IDs for the items in them. Assuming of course that there are still some secrets left after the season ends. :D

[lacenaire]

Rose said the noises in the forest sounded familiar to her, she lives in the Bronx, so what could sound like that in the hood?

There's tunnels, railway junction!!, a ferry, a breaking bridge?,

[lacenaire]

Something got me thinking...

Jack and the air company clerk said 3 times the phrase "NO LATITUDE"


This added with polar bears and magnetic anomalies reminded me that when i was a kid i used to read about a tropical island in the north pole where some guy like tarzan lived with ancient fauna like a sabretooth...

[thoughtform]

lacenaire, i know what you mean with the polar bear and magnetic anomalies. This type of theory has been brought up before but didnt receive much support. I happen to think that there may be something to it though. Try reading the threads on the hollow earth theory and see what you think. I haven't posted about it in a while, but I have never really let go of it. I just can't seem to offer any really strong provable evidence for it. Let me know what you think!

[jaystao]

lacenaire. Your talking about marvel comics Kazaar 'lord of the savage land' which was an enclosed ecology trapped in prehistoric time in the middle of antartica some where. I think it was a valley that had its own temperal wheather conditions and climate due to magnetic polarity of some sort, or somethin like that. Magneto at one stage resided there and did some mutation experiments on its various inhabitants. I watched the scene where latitude is used and all I can say is that the girl at the counter was... nice. I'm puzzled however as to what she meant. Laxed attitude?

[thoughtform]

If you ask me there are an awful lot of marvel comic refs in this show. Did you know that you can find our lost character's names in different marvel comics. For ex. there is a Dr. Reyes, another called Locke, another called Sawyer, etc. Is it just coincidence? It can't be because the writers said that every prop has meaning, like the comic book Walt was reading.

[drabauer]

Coyote, terrific observations. One note: whether one had hope of walking again or not, I think one would still use a muscle stimulateor so that the legs wouldn't completely atrophy. And don't throw out the Spanish Explorers' theory yet--I love it. Why wouldn't Locke be incredibly well-read regarding ancient civilizations and discoveries? Whether he was searching actively for "the cure" or not, having this knowledge would explain his beatific smiles and reach to the heavens on finding the fabled island. And to all you naysayers I add: just because no one every left the island, doesn't mean there aren't numerous legends about it. Perhaps a message in a bottle that washed up on some distant shore?

[lacenaire]

About the Burgundy Cross...

Nowadays exist catholic organizations under that denomination that focus on kids religious upbringing. They organize summer camps (Like Locke said he'd done as a kid) and the usually go on special pilgrimmages to places like Rome and Lourdes.
Those pilgrimmages are often made by sick people in hope of a miracle cure happening to them.
Remember Locke said to charlie he believed he would recover his guitar cause "I have faith"

HIstorical Note:
Charles V king of España and Emperor of the Holy Roman-German Empire founded the Order of Burgundy after the conquest of Tunicia in 1535. Its emblem it had the motto "Barbary".

Its origin is related to the cross of St Andrew. St Andrew performed many miracles of healing in Greece. Amazingly enough Andrew was the first called by Jesus, just like Locke has been the first called by the mysterious entity in the forest??

In the apostle tomb we found that...

The oldest relics known to have exuded manna are those of St Andrew the Apostle. It is believed that St Andrew labored in Turkey and Greece, where his life ended in the city of Patras on November 30 in the year 60. According to the Greek document that was translated by St Gregory, Bishop of Tours (d. 594), the manna first presented itself on the anniversary of the Apostle's death as a perfumed oil that flowed from the sepulchre. Sometimes the manna took the form of a powder that collected on the tomb. For years the oil was so abundant that at times it dripped from the tomb and flowed down the aisle of the church.
[...] when this substance was applied to a man, his vision was restored after several years of blindness.

[NeillT006]

Perhaps a message in a bottle that washed up on some distant shore?

Doc:

Please, say it isn't so. You're not looking for the answer in a bottle are you? ;)

N.

[spooky]

Coyote: I found a cap of Danielle's map that shows the ship. It's a small pic, unfortunately, but you can it here. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~arie777/lost/)

[drabauer]

Lacenaire--the Cross of St. Andrew--brilliant! It does fit, and he is a patron Saint of miracle cures. And if Locke is indeed an orphan, likely he may have spent time in a religious orphanage or had some religious schooling.

Neill--very funny. I suppose I could be accused of that at times . . .

I always feel as though I should apologize to you for not buying into your theory, but I really want there to be 40+ flesh and blood people on the island. . more fun that way!
;)

back to my bottle ...

[melostmo]

Coyote: I found a cap of Danielle's map that shows the ship. It's a small pic, unfortunately, but you can it

I have seen where members have attributed different things in Danielle's possession to be "hers" .. but I am not that sure of that.. for instance: if u were to go thru ME things, in my home, u would find much that was done by someone else, it may belong to me now, yes, but did not originate from ME.
so... what I'm saying is... maybe the maps, the ship, the equations, anything could be things she acquired from friends, from people she studied with (we know she was doing research) .. people that are gone.. colleagues, even patients !:rolleyes

[gertie]

If you can spell "colleague", why can't you spell "you".

Is this your 200th post? How are you bypassing the counts?

[melostmo]

If you can spell "colleague", why can't you spell "you".

gosh gee, TENUC,, I really thought this was about the LOST series .... not spelling, how many posts ME has ? not personal stuff like that..c'mon !

maybe I'm just not..NORMAL ...thank God !!

or... maybe I know the "magic" numbers , maybe using the #s .. I can get around the post thingy..:D

[Coyote1066]

Okay guys...

Wow, so there is some sliver of credibility to the "quest for healing" theory about Locke...and yep it could be mental healing Neil. :D

Melostmo, you have a good point. The maps could have been made by someone else. Even though there are French notes on them, that doesn't mean they weren't added later.

Thanks for the map links Spooky. I think I might make my own attempt at trying the draw a complete map. Did you also notice the translations of the French notes on that site? Very interesting!

[Black Dahlia]

Regarding the flags in Locke's mug:

It is strange that I also first perceived the snake on the Culpeper flag as being a skull. Maybe the backwards "death" works on the subconscious, or perhaps it goes with the supposition of Locke having some sort of background in Special Forces.

Still, I wonder if there is not an elite battalion or whatever martial division that uses both the Culpeper flag and the Cross of Burgundy as their insignia. Has anyone tried looking for sites that might show these insignia? All I found thus far is that the Army Special Forces branch (no pun intended) insignia is two arrows crossed at pretty much the same angle as the Burgundy Cross's branches. And arrows were originally made from branches. Also, I'm not sure, but I don't think it's unheard of for military insignia for the smaller divisions to incorporate elements of foreign flags.

Barring the flags having some signifigance in Locke's possible military background, perhaps they symbolize something that fits in with Locke's "deep connection" to the island. I have theorized that the island is both the location of the Garden of Eden and the Fountain of Youth. Well, on one flag you have a serpent and the other one was probably flown by DeSoto or Coranado or whoever was searching the Americas for the Fountain. And they rest upon something that Locke used to hopefully one day regain use of his legs, or at least keep the mucles from atrophizing (atrophying? -phiing? atrophating?) until some "miracle" allowed him to walk again.

[Oswald]

I enjoy researching the props so much I'm thinking of making a website this summer with just screen caps and possible IDs for the items in them. Assuming of course that there are still some secrets left after the season ends.

Go for it Coyote, picking apart the screencaps for clues is my favorite part of this, I'd love to see some higher res zooms of some scenes, I'm sure there is a lot that we are missing.

I think there could be some interesting stuff in the scene where jack beats the coffin, I'd love to see if there is a transport case for Vincent there, as I think he would have been travelling in the same cargo hold as the coffin. Also Sawyers childhood bedroom in Outlaws has a cluttered desk in it, and those are fun to pick apart as well.

[Tail Section]

I wouldn't have addressed this issue here, in this way, but I looked all over the place and couldn't find a link to an e-mail address for "Spooky" of transcript fame.

I read and post on Usenet's alt.tv.lost quite a bit; there is an ongoing issue of people submitting posts about the marshal and MISSPELLING it "marshall."

In your transcripts, you're not helping matters by also misspelling it. There is only one "L" in marshal when referring to a government law enforcement agent; the other way it is frequently a surname.

It says your transcripts are grammatically correct. Well, not in this respect. Please fix them.

[drabauer]

The instructions on contacting Spooky are at the top of the transcripts index; you merely PM her through this board as you would any other member.

But you may always contact me, drabauer, as I do all the html coding and uploading of transcripts. My email address is listed, as is standard practice, at the bottom of each page, or you may PM me as well.

I will fix the spelling of marshal.

[Tail Section]

Thanks. Now if I could just get the president to stop saying "nukyoolar"!

[spooky]

Thanks, Amy. I realized my mistake at one point, so the later episodes and Tabula Rasa should be okay.

[NYcyberChef]

Looks to me like a army special forces flag saying " death before dishonor " Might be army rangers or green berets

[Coyote1066]

Self-promoting bump...

I do have some new stuff to post but I have to do some editing first.

I also want to respond to everyone in the thread.

[Gambit980]

Cassis1 If you look at the map here africa map (http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/africa.htm) and compare it to the map of the other Bermuda triangles here lost horizons map (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1324.topic) you can see the plane was probably going north from Nigeria and crashed when it intercepted pinnermans Gaussian field and landed on the ghost island.

[Gambit980]

The Hatch does look like the bottom pictures of your bomb shelter photos Coyote. I think something sealed itself in there. I am praying it's not a alien.

[yung23]

0] pssst, hey you, let me out, please !!

just bumping this thread, Coyote did a good job making it "real"

(not the hip hop term)

Our little friend still may fit, considering now we know someones home.
But turning on a light is a very human thing to do isn't it ?

[LostHorizon]

Gambit980 wrote:

The Hatch does look like the bottom pictures of your bomb shelter photos Coyote. I think something sealed itself in there. I am praying it's not a alien.

It's not an Alien that's in the Hatch .
It's Cthulhu's cousin........:evil

[lacenaire]

Hello

Almost everybody now is focusing on the hatch and the island.
Thise thread is a very good example of how to do things right.
Well thought theories, and lots of pictures :)

Picture from Harsh Realm (1990) by Chris Carter

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/966355/locke-Santiago.jpg

I Am going to read this thread all over again
thanks mates

[yung23]

bumping, don't let it slip so far..

it'll come back around.

[spacekadet]

alright, here is what i think. it's not a theory, just a random fact i found interesting

saw this movie a long time ago, "The Others". Nicole Kidman was the mother of a boy and a girl, living in an old giant house, somewhere in the woods. Her husband had gone to war, and never returned. One day, an old man and a woman come to her door, asking for work. Well, from that moment on she thought she heard ghosts. Doors slamming, voices, poltergeist - the whole lot. Till one day, a series of events lead her to discover that she isn't hearing ghosts, she and her familly are ghosts. they died, but never left the house, and the people moving now in the house are what they heard. Voices, everything - a connection between her boy and the new tentants' daughter.

Not saying this is what is happening on the island, but we could draw some paralels. Including the fact that Jack said: we all died in that crash (something like that).

[Gambit980]

First of all thank you for giving away the end to the Others because I've never seen it before. Secondly why you would post they are all dead in this section boggles my mind, maybe your misinformed. This thread is related to the history of the island. Man where is chance when you need him.

[lacenaire]

COyote hi, please check Terry O'queen's id as general Santiago...

Do you notice the shield with swords forming a St'Andrew Cross like Locke's flag?
Even the "all areas clearance" reflects in Lost
And didn't Sayid serve in the Republican Guard?

Coincidences like this are amazing to me.

The island has this obvious connections to secret military projects that you and pinnerman are talking about.

[v1p3r6]

saw a picture of from the promo to the upcoming epsidoe and on the boat michael made there is a steel container on it with a logo very simliar to that found in rousseaus hideout.

heres the link

www.lost-media.com/module...=382&pos=2 (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=382&pos=2)

[yung23]

I was wondering where he got new pontoons, the previous raft only had bamboo tied together, you think he would have started with pontoons if they were available.

I'm still waiting to see the symbol related to the hatch myself.

[drabauer]

an honorable thread, due for reappraisal.

[LostInWilderness]

Coyote. It's time to come out and play.

[yung23]

you've read some spoilers !! it seems you know something.

I gotta get the heck out of here, just watching which threads have been bumped is likely to tip me off...


CD anyone ?

[LostInWilderness]

I haven't read any spoilers. Was that a joke?

[yung23]

naw, Im just getting jumpy I'm going to ruin it for myself.. it does make sense though, some of these people have read spoilers and would likely bump those related threads..
\
edit... a bit off topic...
all this time I have been defending crazy answers like aliens/montauk chairs/ mind control etc.... & the closer they get to giving us the truth, the more i hope for something magical.. a simple answer will not be enough anymore.. how do you guys feel ?

although I agree that the answer should be beleivable, i long for more magic, more suspense,,,, I almost don't want the answers, and when they get here, I want them to be as big as our theories...

[LostInWilderness]

I'm hoping for something mystical. Man trying to harness some primal power. I think we'll get that too.

And vikings, because vikings make JG happy.

[jaystao]

although I agree that the answer should be beleivable, i long for more magic, more suspense,,,, I almost don't want the answers, and when they get here, I want them to be as big as our theories...

Just got my DVD in the mail today. Good on Amazon.com only a week and a bit to send it down under.
The deleted scenes were cool, didin't mind watching them. They didn't give away to much anyway. I started watching some of the behind the scenes and you know what, decided not to watch the rest. Its kinda cool seeing some of our castaways out of costume but it does kind off ruin things when you know the secret behind the magic trick. Lost for me than is special, it has magic. Even if that is one of child like simplicity at times. To some it may be trite but for me it has moments of sublime pleasure. Seeing some of the writers, creators and how did we do that, 0is cool but at the same time gave that magic over to normality. This is just a show it seems. A theatrical performance/buisiness. Well, forgive me for getting caught up in the illusion. So I just watched the first four episodes (Hey I just got it a few days ago!) with out commentary and any knowledge of those 'how we that' type media. So perhaps I'll wait a bit before unlocking more of this DVD edition. For now perhaps the pleasure of watching LOST sole for its illusion is enough and that includes this board and all the myriad discussions on the minutae and greater LOST particular regardless of the eventual truth.

[LostInWilderness]

That's exactly how I feel Jay.

[jaystao]

Me too eow..peow peow

Edit to add: What do you do when someone has access to your login account? That person being an immanuture friend of yours? There maybe some consequences come tomorrow!!@#$(%&%#@!!

[sawyerhasbestlines]

What do you do when someone has access to your login account?

Change your password.

[jaystao]

sorry for the brief thread jacking. Advice taken.

[LostInWilderness]

If only all things in life were so easy. ;)

[Gambit980]

ohh ohhh four toes four toes gotta be some kind of historical connection