[jane_eire]

Originally Posted by carmela

Yes, very strange. The cabin appeared to be Ben's staging area for his elaborate ruse. You wonder if he ever brought anyone else there. But then suddenly, in the presence of Locke, it just happens to also be the home of one of the island's powerful beings. Are we missing something?

Cabin's gone.

Burn down my home
My memory’s hardened in the brightest chrome
Good times escape
While every mistake seems to be caught on tape

I will go rolling fast
Arms out in the rain
Feel momentum building to lift
Off ground like an airplane

Love ties you down to the pain
A billion eyes are watching fossilized
They see what remains
Remains

Gave up this town
What waste are we left with when it’s boiled down
Shine light on me
Your image reflected is all you’ll ever see

Maurissa Tancharoen & Jed Whedon

[sgtdraino]

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

Well, we know that Ben is telling the truth to Locke about never seeing or talking with Jacob. Locke had called his bluff on it and won.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

Obviously, Richard never called his bluff on the matter.

But Richard is the primary communicator with Jacob, supposedly. We have Ben suddenly claiming that Jacob has given him new orders, and we are expected to believe that Richard never confirmed this with Jacob? The guy Richard is the primary communicator for?

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

Either he assumed that Ben had really communicated with Jacob

I don't see how that could be a realistic option.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

or he knew that he hadn't and he was glad to allow Ben to continue the ruse since it served Richard's own purpose.

That is at least possible, yet it still doesn't make sense. Ben knows that Richard is the primary communicator with Jacob, so it makes no sense for Ben to even attempt to bluff Richard about it, because he would have to assume that Richard is eventually going to find out he lied.

More and more, I suspect this scene is just not going to be consistent, much like we see Miles in one of his first scenes literally conversing with the dead, but then many episodes later he tells Hurley "that's not how it works." I really don't see a way to reconcile the two.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

I suppose the cabin, found by Ben, seemed like a suitable location to take John to in order to introduce him to "Jacob." Obviously ben expected the cabin to be empty and he was gonna play his "what, John, you mean you don't see him" ruse. It backfired on him.

That makes the most sense, yet it doesn't explain why Ilana's team made that their first stop.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

As for Ilana, I think they were looking to make sure nemesis was still bound (but I'll admit this is also an inconsistecny since they should have known who/what/where Nemesis was at that point----why they ever let him waltz into the jungle to begin with makes no sense).

You're right, that makes no sense. Right before they get to the cabin, they show Frank what's in the box as proof of "what they're up against." So, obviously if Nemesis was bound up in the cabin, before they even get there Ilana's team is already 100% positive that he's not there anymore, because they've already seen him walking around.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

However, if they were looking for Jacob they sure as hell knew where to find him ("what lies in the shadow of the statue").

Jacob is inside the statue, not lying in its shadow. John Locke is lying in its shadow. And the scene actually makes it quite clear that Ilana's team didn't know they needed to go to the statue until they found Jacob's post-it note:

BRAM: So what now?

[Ilana gives him a wary look and removes the piece of cloth from her bag; handing it to Bram. Looking down at it, he sees a picture of the statue next to the ocean and the Island mountains. The sound of the cabin burning is steadily building.]

BRAM: Well, I guess we know where we're going.

Now, keep in mind that Ilana was sent on her mission via direct orders from Jacob, so it seems clear that Jacob is the one who directed her to go to the cabin first. They are surprised to see the ash circle broken, and the post-it note is a piece of Jacob's tapestry pinned to the wall with Jacob's knife, which tells them where to go next. They already know that Nemesis is walking around, so it can't have been Nemesis they were looking for in the cabin. They are surprised to find the circle broken, ergo they expected to find the circle unbroken, and that whoever they were looking for would still be in the cabin.

ILANA: He isn't there. Hasn't been in a long time. Someone else has been using it.

So, I conclude that they were in fact looking for Jacob. I conclude that Jacob sent them to the cabin because he expected he might be trapped there, and Step One of their mission was to free him. They arrived to find that he'd already been freed, but that he left a note behind for them to tell them were he'd be. I also conclude that "someone else" most likely refers to Christian.

They burn the cabin down because it was Jacob's prison, and they don't want anybody to ever be able to imprison him there again. If the cabin was Nemesis's prison, then it would make no sense for Ilana to destroy it.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

Why go to the cabin to find him if you know what lies in the shadow of the statue?

"What lies in the shadow of the statue" appears to be a prophecy. The answer is "He who will save us all." It doesn't say "Jacob," nor have we seen Jacob lie in the shadow of the statue.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

You're right, but as you've pointed out, the temple exposition would be contradicted by the earlier interaction between Richard and Ben concerning Jacob "wanting it done now."

Agreed. But if the two incidents truly are irreconcileable, I think we have to go with the more recent one, which is obviously more in keeping with Darlton's present thinking on the direction the story will go.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

That does seem like sloppy writing.

Yep.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

The "did John see" line, I think, is very important. It implies that either A) Richard believed Ben had the ability to take John to Jacob (and also that John might actually be able to see him) or B) Richard was playing along with Ben's ruse.

Either way it proves that Ben had asserted to Richard that he knew where to find Jacob and that Richard either believed him or was playing along.

Okay, here's an idea. It does not completely erase the inconsistencies, but at least it's an idea:

Ben doesn't actually say that he's never met Jacob, he only says that he's never seen him, and that Jacob has been "ignoring" him all these years. Perhaps at some point Ben was given some reason to believe that Jacob is in that cabin. He's a sneaky fellow, perhaps he even followed Richard out there.

In fact, I'll do one better: Widmore was exiled shortly after The Purge, and we only have the vaguest idea of why that happened. Obviously Jacob himself didn't come out and say, "you're exiled," so there had to be some other process by which Widmore got exiled, and Ben became leader in his place.

I'll paint you a picture:

Shortly after The Purge, Ben follows Richard to the cabin without him knowing, because he desperately wants to meet Jacob. Richard spots him once they get there, and agrees to let Ben come in, but warns him that only special people can "see" Jacob. Richard and Ben go inside, and what follows is similar to what happened with Locke and Ben: Richard asks if Ben can see Jacob, and Ben of course sees nothing. But he's embarassed, and he wants to be special, so he lies and says that he can see Jacob, but that he can't hear him very well. Richard quickly determines that Ben is lying, but plays along, and together they come up with a scenario in which Widmore is exiled, and Ben takes over. Of course, Richard pretends that this judgement comes from Jacob, who is actually there (incorporeal), but who Ben can't see or hear, and who Richard is not really listening to.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

Regardless of whether Jacob is working for or against Jacob, I certainly believe Ben was no more than a puppet leader. Ben was happily to play the ruse and Richard was happy to let him.

I think that's how all of the leaders have been, until they became too troublesome for Richard, and he gets rid of them in favor of someone new, who is more controllable.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

Was Richard simply biding his time waiting for the real leader, John Locke?

I think Richard was just keeping the cycle going. So he could live forever, and spend time building model ships on the beach.

Originally Posted by carmela

I know that we have seen Richard off island. However, we haven't seen Richard in a suite with fruit plates and Champagne so I say that he chose not to live it up when off island...unlike our friend, Tom.

We've seen Richard on the island lounging around the beach and building model ships inside bottles, so there's no reason to think he would not engage in similar frivolities while off-island.

Originally Posted by carmela

His side may well be the protection of the island.

As a fully-realized character, in his own mind Richard might very well think that he's doing what's necessary to protect the island, even if that means imprisoning Jacob and mass-murdering Army guys and DHARMA guys. Really he wants to continue his life forever, but he rationalizes it by thinking that the good he is doing justifies it.

Originally Posted by carmela

Ben is not out of moves - not by a long shot. He may never have been the chosen one but he is a brilliant tactician. He reads people well; he's not sad at all. I look forward to his next move.

As am I, though in the end I would like to see Ben lose. He is a cold-blooded murderer, willing to kill just about anybody who gets in his way. By-and-large, he is a very selfish, self-centered person, who would cut your throat without batting an eye if it would bring him some advantage.

He is a psychopath. He is a smart guy, he is a resourceful guy, but he is simply not a good guy.

[treesong]

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

More and more, I suspect this scene is just not going to be consistent, much like we see Miles in one of his first scenes literally conversing with the dead, but then many episodes later he tells Hurley "that's not how it works." I really don't see a way to reconcile the two.

It's fairly simple. Ben and Richard are in cahoots.

Jacob is inside the statue, not lying in its shadow. John Locke is lying in its shadow.

The statue basement had an open roof. Everyone near the statue could be lying in its shadow.

So, I conclude that they were in fact looking for Jacob.

That makes no sense either. Jacob indicated a long time ago that he would be in the statue when Nemesis found the loophole, and when Ilana got her instructions he was clearly not bound.

The most logical conclusion is that Ilana and crew expected to find either Richard, or someone who could tell them where Richard was. As it happened, Richard was at the statue.

They burn the cabin down because it was Jacob's prison, and they don't want anybody to ever be able to imprison him there again. If the cabin was Nemesis's prison, then it would make no sense for Ilana to destroy it.

They weren't on a mission to free Jacob from the cabin. They were on a mission to show "someone" something so that "they" would know what they're up against.

"What lies in the shadow of the statue" appears to be a prophecy.

It seems to be a simple pass phrase, or something people can figure out for themselves.

Agreed. But if the two incidents truly are irreconcileable, I think we have to go with the more recent one, which is obviously more in keeping with Darlton's present thinking on the direction the story will go.

Let's assume the story is by and large consistent. Just because it seems it isn't, doesn't mean it isn't.

As am I, though in the end I would like to see Ben lose. He is a cold-blooded murderer, willing to kill just about anybody who gets in his way. By-and-large, he is a very selfish, self-centered person, who would cut your throat without batting an eye if it would bring him some advantage.

He is a psychopath. He is a smart guy, he is a resourceful guy, but he is simply not a good guy.

Proof?

Or do you think you understand Ben just as well as you think you understand Locke?

[see you in the next life]

I think everyone is greatly undervaluing Richard asking Ben:

"Did John see......."


It is clear from Alex asking "when did you get back" and "where's Locke" all followed by "Jacob wants it done now" and "did John see....." that:

Richard and Alex knew where Ben went with Locke. Richard wants to know if John saw Jacob.


So, what can we deduce from that scene?


1. Ben knew where to go to supposedly see Jacob.
2. Richard had to be the one to tell him where to go.
3. Richard knew where they were going and was comfortable with them going there - and upon their return Richard was curoius to know if John saw Jacob.
4. Ben was confident enough in his ruse to suggest he got new orders.


What did Richard think was going to happen?

Did he have some way of knowing that no one would ever appear to Ben?

Was he curious or afraid that someone might appear to John?

Richard told Ben "you have to be patient."

Did that mean "you have to be patient before I take you to him" or could it possibly mean "you have to be patient......Jacob may not appear to you until he feels you are ready."

The latter might offer an explanation for why Richard would allow Ben to go to the cabin (no one was ever going to appear to Ben)....and it also allow for the possibility that Ben had been going to the cabin........never seeing anyone......not expecting to the night he took John.....and then becoming really angry when "it" finally appeared to John.


I don't know....I'm just tossing it out there.

Finally, it could be either Jacob or Nemesis that was bound. If Richard was comfortable that neither would appear to Ben it wouldn't make much difference.

The reason I add this last part is that Sgt believes it was Jacob that was bound but some of us feel it was Nemesis. This offers the possibility that Richard was the one doing the binding, was behind the ash circle, and allows for either viewpoint of who was bound to be possible.

[see you in the next life]

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

But Richard is the primary communicator with Jacob, supposedly. We have Ben suddenly claiming that Jacob has given him new orders, and we are expected to believe that Richard never confirmed this with Jacob? The guy Richard is the primary communicator for?

When did he have time to do so. I don't think he did.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

That is at least possible, yet it still doesn't make sense. Ben knows that Richard is the primary communicator with Jacob, so it makes no sense for Ben to even attempt to bluff Richard about it, because he would have to assume that Richard is eventually going to find out he lied.

But this is what Ben does. Suppose Ricahrd tells Ben the place to find Jacob is in the cabin. Richard often goes to the cabin and brings back "slips of paper." Richard secretly knows that whoever or whatever is bound in the cabin will NEVER appear to Ben.....so he allows Ben to go to the cabin but tells Ben "you have to be patient.....Jacob will only appear to you when he thinks you are ready." Ben makes visits to the cabin.....no one appears. On this occasion Ben has already shot John Locke when he returns to tell Richard of the "new orders." I doubt Ben is worrying much at this point about being found out by Richard. Think about it. Supposedly John has just seen Jacob and heard him speak.....something that Ben, in all this time, has never experienced.....and yet Ben SHOOTS JOHN LOCKE, without getting orders to do so from Jacob. In fact, he shoots the individual that Jacob has just asked to "help me." So, at this point it doesn't seem like ben is worried about being found out by Richard or about what Jacob wants.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

You're right, that makes no sense. Right before they get to the cabin, they show Frank what's in the box as proof of "what they're up against." So, obviously if Nemesis was bound up in the cabin, before they even get there Ilana's team is already 100% positive that he's not there anymore, because they've already seen him walking around.

This is weak but I suppose we could be led to believe they thought he had gone there after leaving the beach camp.....but why wait, planning on dealing with him at the cabin, when they could have attempted to do so on the beach?

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

Jacob is inside the statue, not lying in its shadow. John Locke is lying in its shadow. And the scene actually makes it quite clear that Ilana's team didn't know they needed to go to the statue until they found Jacob's post-it note:

I think we just disagree on this. I think we are taking the "lying" part too literally. And, as Tree points out, the temple is bathed in light from various angles......Nonetheless, we obviously disagree. I believe they were looking for Nemesis at the cabin....not Jacob. I don't like it....it doesn't make sense they let him waltz into the jungle without keeping tabs on his wherabouts.....but it makes as much sense as going to the cabin expecting to find Jacob.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

Now, keep in mind that Ilana was sent on her mission via direct orders from Jacob, so it seems clear that Jacob is the one who directed her to go to the cabin first. They are surprised to see the ash circle broken, and the post-it note is a piece of Jacob's tapestry pinned to the wall with Jacob's knife, which tells them where to go next. They already know that Nemesis is walking around, so it can't have been Nemesis they were looking for in the cabin. They are surprised to find the circle broken, ergo they expected to find the circle unbroken, and that whoever they were looking for would still be in the cabin.
So, I conclude that they were in fact looking for Jacob. I conclude that Jacob sent them to the cabin because he expected he might be trapped there, and Step One of their mission was to free him. They arrived to find that he'd already been freed, but that he left a note behind for them to tell them were he'd be. I also conclude that "someone else" most likely refers to Christian.

Right. But if you believe they expected to find the ash circle unbroken and it was Jacob who was bound in the cabin then how on earth was he able to visit Ilana and ask her to do anything? And if he was free by then why would he ask her to "come to the cabin." I mean, surely he had more specific mission orders than that.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

"What lies in the shadow of the statue" appears to be a prophecy. The answer is "He who will save us all." It doesn't say "Jacob," nor have we seen Jacob lie in the shadow of the statue.

Who do you think Ilana believes it is that will save them all. Not John Locke....I don't think. Remember, he's who "they are up against."

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

Agreed. But if the two incidents truly are irreconcileable, I think we have to go with the more recent one, which is obviously more in keeping with Darlton's present thinking on the direction the story will go.

You can't be happy with having to even type the words above....nor can I.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

Ben doesn't actually say that he's never met Jacob, he only says that he's never seen him, and that Jacob has been "ignoring" him all these years. Perhaps at some point Ben was given some reason to believe that Jacob is in that cabin. He's a sneaky fellow, perhaps he even followed Richard out there.

In fact, I'll do one better: Widmore was exiled shortly after The Purge, and we only have the vaguest idea of why that happened. Obviously Jacob himself didn't come out and say, "you're exiled," so there had to be some other process by which Widmore got exiled, and Ben became leader in his place.

I'll paint you a picture:

Shortly after The Purge, Ben follows Richard to the cabin without him knowing, because he desperately wants to meet Jacob. Richard spots him once they get there, and agrees to let Ben come in, but warns him that only special people can "see" Jacob. Richard and Ben go inside, and what follows is similar to what happened with Locke and Ben: Richard asks if Ben can see Jacob, and Ben of course sees nothing. But he's embarassed, and he wants to be special, so he lies and says that he can see Jacob, but that he can't hear him very well. Richard quickly determines that Ben is lying, but plays along, and together they come up with a scenario in which Widmore is exiled, and Ben takes over. Of course, Richard pretends that this judgement comes from Jacob, who is actually there (incorporeal), but who Ben can't see or hear, and who Richard is not really listening to.

This scenario is similar to the one I propose....but I still believe that it would allow for it to be either Jacob or Nemesis that is bound.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

I think that's how all of the leaders have been, until they became too troublesome for Richard, and he gets rid of them in favor of someone new, who is more controllable.

Certainly possible and almost certain in Ben's case.


[/QUOTE]

[carmela]

Originally Posted by treesong

It's fairly simple. Ben and Richard are in cahoots.

Bingo! That would be fun to watch.

Originally Posted by sgtdraino

As am I, though in the end I would like to see Ben lose. He is a cold-blooded murderer, willing to kill just about anybody who gets in his way. By-and-large, he is a very selfish, self-centered person, who would cut your throat without batting an eye if it would bring him some advantage.

He is a psychopath. He is a smart guy, he is a resourceful guy, but he is simply not a good guy.

Regardless, I adore the little psychopath. Ben makes for great TV.

[treesong]

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

What did Richard think was going to happen?

The Incident

RICHARD: Because, only our leader can request an audience with Jacob. And there can only be one leader on the Island at a time, John.

It seems unlikely that Richard expected them to visit Jacob. I'm not even sure he himself was allowed to do so, as his rules specify he can't. So how do they get these messages from Jacob. Maybe they only get dreams and see visions who can speak on Jacob's behalf.

Give people what they want. It makes sense to have some fake set up, for whenever a potential new leader wants to meet this mythical Jacob. Perhaps it's a test. "Did John see..." the resident cabin vision? If not, he's not ready. If so, on to the next test.

As for instructions, Ben didn't immediately follow Locke to outside the cabin. A chat with some Christian-like vision is possible. It also makes sense that Ilana would go to the cabin if that's the case. These visions can tell you what to do next.

Originally Posted by see you in the next life

So, at this point it doesn't seem like ben is worried about being found out by Richard or about what Jacob wants.

Ben also addressed the shaking chair guy like one would address a powerful child: "That's enough, you've had your fun!"

[jane_eire]

Originally Posted by treesong

Give people what they want.

This isn’t just about what you want. This is about what you need. This will be the purest, most genuine human encounter of your life. It is a treasure, one I guarantee you will never, never forget.

[treesong]

Originally Posted by jane_eire

This isn’t just about what you want. This is about what you need. This will be the purest, most genuine human encounter of your life. It is a treasure, one I guarantee you will never, never forget.

I'm not sure what you mean, Jane.

What Locke wants is to know the secrets of the Island. What Locke needs is to just know them.

?


That makes sense in how the story is told in that episode. Ben starts with telling Locke that while he promised to tell him everything, it's not as simple as just opening up a dusty old book. Instead he introduces Jacob, and tells Locke it is a man who summons you, and just before they enter the cabin he asks a final time: "are you sure this is what you want?" A lot of obstacles.

That is right after the flashback to young Ben meeting Richard, who is also not too forthcoming:

The Man Behind the Curtain

RICHARD: Maybe that can happen. Maybe. But if that's what you really want Ben, if that's what you want, I want you to really think about that. And you're gonna have to be very, very patient.

The word "really" jumps out, especially because afterwards the question is whether or not the person in the chair was real. Why patience? Perhaps because no-one can help: Ben needs to make discoveries of his own. (Making his loss of innocence in the Temple maybe a bit of a cheat.) But years later, Ben (claims that he) knows someone is sitting in that chair, while Locke doesn't believe.

As far as I know, this was the first, and perhaps the only, time that Locke didn't believe in something special. At that time, the experience was beyond his comprehension.

The Man Behind the Curtain

BEN: You wanted the secrets of the island? Well here they are. This is the man who can answer every single.... [Speaking to the chair] I am not. He made me bring him here! Do you think that that was my... [Arguing with the chair] Sorry, may I finish?!

After all, secrets are not to be shared. They are there to separate Us and Them.

[jane_eire]

Originally Posted by treesong

I'm not sure what you mean, Jane.

Locke wants to know the secrets of the Island.
He needs closure with his father.