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Old 04-30-17, 04:52 PM   #11
topcat
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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I agree that using the poison gas specifically was probably Ben's idea. Keep in mind that Ben had been brought to the Temple years before that, when Sayid shot him in the chest.

I think the DI had to go because they were getting too close to the source of the Island's power, and Jacob gave the green light because he didn't want that power scientifically quantified, or maybe even their drilling actually threatened to create a cataclysm. I think a lot of the Others were probably more than a little jealous of the Dharma digs, too. Those comfy and well-stocked stations, the Barracks, the sub, the guard shark... a pretty sweet setup, and i doubt they wasted much time getting themselves comfy cozy in there after the DI was wiped out. They also pretended that they were the DI, i think. I say that because of the food drops. It's possible that the food drops were carried out for a different reason, though, which would be that Mittelos or another shell corporation administered off-Island by the Others bought up the off-Island Dharma holdings, and carried out the food drops even though they knew that there was no longer any more actual DI personnel left on-Island. I personally found this aspect of the story to be fascinating, that the Others maintained vast power in the outside world as well as controlling the Island itself, and that they had dangerous enemies out there too.

"I chose you because you were flawed." It's true that at least one of Jacob's lists was people who were to be ushered safely and quietly off the Island. I don't think he truly believed that keeping the Island sacred was saving the world, but i do believe that he was right not to want his brother Smokie to be released into the outside world. Why would he specifically want someone flawed to replace him? Could it have had something to do with continuing to keep Smokie contained? It seemed like Jacob knew how to make Smokie vulnerable at the very least, maybe he wasn't sure if the bastard would actually die or not?

"You opened the box." - the warning given to Hurley when he used the numbers to play the lottery. We saw that Island power and influence wasn't limited to the Island. Juliet's husband is a great example too. There are dozens of them, actually, if we read closely enough to see them. So the whole wine bottle metaphor was really just about keeping Smokie contained.

Locke's sacrifice was ultimately key to Smokie's demise, and he was set upon that path by an interesting mix of people: Ben, Widmore, and Eloise Hawking - all of whom had at one point been the leader of the Others, subordinate of course to Jacob, who administered through Richard Alpert. Ben and Charles hated each other, resented each other, and went to war against each other, but they worked together towards Jacob's greater purpose of freeing the Island of Smokie. Do you think they did so intentionally?

I'm not convinced that Jacob himself actually ever healed anybody. I think the Island healed people. The contrast in method between the way Rose and Locke were healed and the way Ben's cancer was healed might be pretty telling. The Island itself was considered a character in its own right by the writers and showrunners, i don't know if you were aware of that or not.
I do recall Kate and Sawyer taking young Ben to the Others to be healed after Sayid shot him. Richard told them he would belong to them after that, that he would not remember the shooting/healing incident, and that he would never be the same. (That provided the answer to Hugo's question when he and Miles had their time travel paradox discussion/argument. Miles didn't know that Ben's memory of the shooting had been wiped, and couldn't explain why Ben didn't remember being shot by Sayid when he met him years later. )

I didn't realize the island had been described as a personal entity in promos. But I did think it to be a source of healing, that seemed pretty clear because of Locke's and Rose's healings, and the general lack of illness on the island.
I got the sense that Jacob could channel that energy somehow. He and his brother were somehow the recipients of some supernatural powers, presumably derived from the island, but also inherited perhaps from the woman who adopted them? I was never clear what the source of their super long lives was. The brothers talked about the men who found their way to the island and began researching it's power, speaking of them almost like angels discussing mere mortal men. They argued about whether they were worth trying to help. Bad brother argued that they had evil traits and always wound up killing each other, and Jacob looked on the positive, noting how much improvements they made each time. That scene portrayed the bothers as something more than just men. They were certainly not bound by the ordinary life span of men.
How did Jacob confer the everlasting youth to Richard Alpert? His mother had him undergo that ritual with the drinking of water which made him the 'keeper of the island'. Did it give him the ability to channel the island's power as he saw fit?
But Jack wasn't given the supernatural abilities or strength which the brothers somehow had. There was something different about them, because of their woman who adopted them I guess. The nature of their special status wasn't clear to me.

At times I thought perhaps the island represented some kind of purgatory, as Jin perhaps thought when he spoke to Sun about him being there because of how badly he had treated her.

The island's power was portrayed at times almost like the power of God. Like the source of light was too great for mere mortals to see and still live, though it wasn't just light; the light emanated from the intense electromagnetic point. Desmond was a special case, able to withstand being nearer to it and still live, though weakened- Like Moses who was blinded by looking at a place where God had just passed, but not at God directly.

The latter part of the series was confusing. At what point did they die? Was it after the bomb exploded? Was all that happened afterward the result of them altering the future? There was the scene of Ben the teacher with his aging and ailing father, where Roger spoke of taking Ben to the DI for a better life, and wondering what life would have been like for them if they had stayed instead of returning. Was that the result of the bomb changing the future for them all?

I have not read the various theories on what the show means. I would like to read something by the writers themselves, to know what they wanted to convey.

Any show with time travel and all the paradoxes that come with that idea would pose problems in terms of making it all tie together logically. I think the writers would have to leave many things vague, open to interpretation.
But I would still like to read something about how they were trying to tie things together.
At what point did they die? Were those other scenes a portrayal of how life would have been had the bomb worked? Did it work?
Because Juliette said it did work.
So what were the scenes of them on the island after the bomb exploded. Obviously none of them would be alive after a nuke exploded that close to them. Were they dead then? In season 6 E 9 Ab Aeterno Richard Alpert says to Jack "Do you want to know a secret? You're dead. We all are. We're not on an island. We're in hell." Of course Richard Alpert at this time was very disillusioned by the death of Jacob. But this was another hint that perhaps they were dead at this point, perhaps in purgatory or something.
Were the scenes of them on the island after the bomb, were they spirits who didn't realize they were dead?

I think perhaps they were, and the reality part was them flying on flight 815 and landing without incident. Ben as the teacher was reality, because the bomb destroyed the Swan and changed history for them.

I don't know. What is your take on all that stuff?

Oh yeah, I forgot your question. I think Ben wanted to betray Charles to the end. That is why he told smokie Locke where Charles was hiding. And of course he shot him dead as well.

Last edited by topcat; 05-01-17 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 05-01-17, 03:16 AM   #12
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

About the island:
It was supposed to be the source of the light inside of all people. If the light were put out in the island, it would go out in everyone everywhere. At least that's what the lady of the island who adopted Jacob and his dark haired brother told them.
So the island kind of represents God in a way.
There is a lot of symbolism in this show.
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Old 05-01-17, 07:21 AM   #13
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Case in point about the bomb. I saw it as a means for the island to give back to those who sacrificed themselves throughout it's passing. By sacrificing itself in a semi qausi after life it was able to create a nexus world where they could live out there lives with some sort of peace. The bomb was a sacrifice the island required in order to project it's own desire because at the end of the day it cared for these people good and bad. Certainly if the island didn't want it to happen then it probably wouldn't. It was also the catalyst for the end game. I don't know if that makes sense. But in regards to Locke he was always a pawn of the island as were they all, but the island probably didn't think in human terms if it thought at all rather there was a natural symmetry and cthonic narrative that needed to be fulfilled and the island had to play it's part in this ritual sacrifice just like everyone else.
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Old 05-02-17, 04:32 PM   #14
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat View Post
About the island:
It was supposed to be the source of the light inside of all people. If the light were put out in the island, it would go out in everyone everywhere. At least that's what the lady of the island who adopted Jacob and his dark haired brother told them.
So the island kind of represents God in a way.
There is a lot of symbolism in this show.
Jeez, where did you ever get that idea?...

Posted by yung23:

Then theres "THE LIGHT IN ALL MEN.. the very words spoken by "mother"about the source

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Across_the_Sea
Quote:
She tells them they must never enter the cave. The Boy in Black says that it is beautiful, she agrees and tells them that a little bit of the same light that is in the cave is inside every man but that people always want more. Mother says that while the other people can't take the light, they might try and if the light goes out here it goes out everywhere."

how it relates is obvious

Quote:
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.…"
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Old 05-02-17, 10:06 PM   #15
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Quote:
Originally Posted by yung23 View Post
Jeez, where did you ever get that idea?...

Posted by yung23:

Then theres "THE LIGHT IN ALL MEN.. the very words spoken by "mother"about the source

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Across_the_Sea
Quote:
She tells them they must never enter the cave. The Boy in Black says that it is beautiful, she agrees and tells them that a little bit of the same light that is in the cave is inside every man but that people always want more. Mother says that while the other people can't take the light, they might try and if the light goes out here it goes out everywhere."

how it relates is obvious

Quote:
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
Right, I was relaying what the mother told the two boys about a little bit of that light being inside all people.
I thought at the time it was another bit of spiritual symbolism, a lot of which can be found in the show.
God is described as light in many scriptural references, and the island in LOST was described by the twin boys 'mother' as the source of the light inside all men.
There was a good and evil theme in the show obviously, as well as a theme of power corrupting people.
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Old 05-10-17, 06:53 PM   #16
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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Ben is a very complicated character. He was easy to hate, and it was easy to love hating him. By the end i think we realized that he was just as LOST as everybody else. I don't think he really found himself until after Jacob's death, and Alex's death was a major turning point for him as well. He did eventually find redemption, though. The nice little moment with Ben and Hurley telling each other that they were great ones and twos displayed to me that Ben was able to change his ways and become a good person.

But as for his considerable long list of evil acts, i thought he treated Sayid the worst. He used Sayid as his personal assassin for years, and then left him with nothing but a giant hole in his soul. Sayid himself was ripe for the picking for such use, due to his own demons and self-loathing, and he was almost as complicated a character as Ben.

Bear in mind that Ben was raised by no mother, and with Roger Workman as his father. So he was really raised by the Dharma initiative, a group that he betrayed and murdered because he had become a pawn in the game being played between Jacob and his brother. I think Ben deified Jacob for most of his life, and i think he learned his master manipulator skills from Jacob, who was really no more of a "good guy" than his brother - they were both raised in isolation by a madwoman. Power corrupts, as the old saw says, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Island was a source of immense power, and most if not all of the characters used that power knowingly or otherwise. Characters like Jacob and Ben, who figured out how to use that power more consciously, became corrupted. Locke wanted that power VERY badly, and it turned him from a sympathetic and capable person into a despicable puppet. Locke's story started as a miracle in Walkabout, but it had a very sad ending in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.
I forgot which thread it was in so I will just reply here. You had given me an explanation of how the bomb failed to vaporize them all, saying it was the explosive trigger which exploded (the part used to drive the nuclear material in against itself to initiate the nuclear explosion in nukes). That explains why they did not receive radiation burns or get wiped out by the blast wave.
I recall they had removed the core from the nuke. I assumed the nuke was of the original type with the traditional explosive charges placed around it, where the core is the nuclear material.
Of course Juliette would have not have survived being in that close proximity to traditional explosives. But I am used to television showing us very unrealistic portrayals of explosions. They always show a fireball and lead viewers to believe that as long as people are outside the fireball, they can survive the blast. In reality it is the primary blast wave which does the most of the killing and it extends outward from the source of the blast a good distance farther than is shown on television.

But for the purposes of the show, I can work with the idea that the charge was traditional explosive, and that therefore was not sufficient to 'fix' the future.

It is a fascinating show, and I am continually working it over in my mind, trying to get it all to fit together. I am sure they left things a bit unclear in order to get us involved this way.
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Old 05-10-17, 11:01 PM   #17
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Mr. Mo,
I am watching The Incident Part 1 over again. In it Sayid and Jack pull the plutonium core from the bomb. They are following Faraday's notebook instructions on pulling the plutonium core and how to detonate it.

Jack says Faraday told him they needed the bomb to knock out some pocket of energy and asks Sayid if only part of the bomb will be enough.
Sayid says "the core itself is a thermonucler weapon. It will be more than enough."

So the part they pulled, the central part, was the nuclear material. That still leaves the question as to how they could detonate it without the triggering charges (this was a 1950s era bomb). But this is TV so we are not supposed to get that technical about it.

But anyway, that gets me back to my original questions about the bomb. Did it work as Juliette said? (Why weren't they vaporized by the blast, especially Juliette? Or killed by the primary blast wave, or killed by the massive dose of radiation they would have received?)
So is this is another case of television having us believe you can be very close to an explosion and come away from it just a little shaken up?
Perhaps.

If the bomb worked, how do we rationalize them living on afterward, unless we are seeing them in a parallel dimension afterward or something? Season six was a little weird

Last edited by topcat; 05-10-17 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 05-10-17, 11:37 PM   #18
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

But honestly I think the writers had to get super creative to come up with an extra season of material quickly. I read an article, an interview with them where they explained that the sideways flashes stuff was something they came up with when the show was given another season, more that it was originally plotted out for.

I wonder if the whole separate reality plot device was something they had in mind from early on, or more probably it was a way to come up with the extra content they needed.
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Old 05-11-17, 04:16 AM   #19
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

If you read the series as whole very closely, season 6 mirrors season 1 VERY closely. If anything, i think the framework for season 6 was planned out between seasons 1 and 2, and that a lot of the execution of season 6 six was done on the fly, so to speak, but with writers committed not to violating the "Series Bible" as it were.

The real "fly by the seat of our pants" seasons were late s3, all s4, and at least early s5. I know it's difficult to understand the impact of the writers' strike for a show like LOST unless you were watching it while it unfolded. The freighter scenes in particular HAD to be both unambiguous AND cliffhangerish because nobody knew exactly when shit might go down. nor hard it might hit.
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Old 05-11-17, 06:11 AM   #20
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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I...the "Series Bible" as it were.
That would be quite a read, to be sure.
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