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Old 05-15-17, 04:34 AM   #71
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

Matty, I'm sorry. I actually watched the scene. It was far from glorification and your catchphrase du jour torture porn. It was sad and lonely and horrible and final and no one was going to come in the nick of time and rescue her from this colossal act of self-destruction. I wish it was different. I wish she had enough life left in her to adopt another option. But she didn't. And this show was about why she didn't, or why she thought she didn't.

The suicide you cite is a senseless tragedy. And Im certain there's much blame to go around. But Im sorry. Before this show even appeared on a screen, the internet itself was blazing a trail of cruelty and bullying and daring people to endanger themselves. Shall we get rid of the internet as well? Shall we get rid of humanity while we're at it because some people are monsters? Or should we reach out to people while they're still capable of taking in genuine positivity and tell them: you are worth more than these people who bully you, or call you names, or harm you, and there are choices in your life and the best one is living. And in some way tell them, as you suggest, about the permanence of death. Or that life is better with you in this world, and death, as an act of escape, doesn't end the problem: it just radiates the problem for everybody else---as this show demonstrates.

If anything, this show is a wake up call to parents to do something different from being oblivious about their children, and for young people to do something different from accepting what peers say or do as the absolute way things must be, and to speak out about their lives as though they have worth in this world. Before the internet or 13 reasons why, people harmed others and harmed themselves. And school-agers could be ruthless, power-mad pre-adults, mere reflections of the world around them. Long before twitter or the ice-bucket challenge. Shielding people from modernity is folly. But raising kids to be strong and kind. Then there's possibility.
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Old 05-15-17, 04:44 AM   #72
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

Okay, and what model do parents, or kids have to do all of those wonderful, pristine, perfectly idealogical things in your post, Boonian? Oh. We don't have any.

Instead we have a model and instructions for how to kill ourselves because of it.

How about creating a show where she's bullied, raped, but as you say, overcomes and survives through the good parenting and social connections of her friends?

Oh, that doesn't sell? THAT'S BECAUSE IT ISNT LIBERAL TORTURE PORN. Well, and also because parents would get upset on however the show handled it, whatever advice families or friends have. It'd never be correct enough or right enough for PC America. But showing the universal, horrific outcome and act of suicide? Sure, let's roll. Slap it on Netflix so kids everywhere can watch.
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Old 05-15-17, 04:55 AM   #73
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

Honestly, I actually agree with Mattie here. The scene that depicted her committing the act was gratuitous. The scene for me that belonged in the story and made the most sense (if the idea is to depict how devastating suicide is to those left behind) is the one where her parents find her... That was torture to watch too, but at least sent the right message.
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Old 05-15-17, 05:03 AM   #74
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

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I wholeheartedly agree with you that the real message in this show is about rape culture, not suicide. I think it's very naive to think (even if idealistically) that Hannah was equipped to speak up for herself and ask an adult for help. It was the responsibility of the people around her to see what was happening and speak up for her. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." That is what happened time and time again. Even Tony was guilty of victim blaming. Every time I heard someone mention what a "drama queen" Hannah was, I cringed. Another thing to mention is that no, this behavior is not at its worst in high school. Boys who aren't taught what no means or how to behave respectfully towards women become men who don't know what the word no means or how to behave respectfully towards women. It's truly frightening how many of those men exist in the world.
I agree that rape culture is a primary element of this show. And how those with power and those who abuse power circle the wagons for their own self-interest. And as I've said, the parents and teachers in this cozy little hell-town perpetuate the culture.

I think that the term drama queen was used by others to deflect their own responsibility in dealing with Hannah's attempts to speak out about how she felt people had wronged her. Tony himself after the fact said he regretted how he responded. He wished he had gone to the door. But by his own account, Hannah had been on his heels quite a lot. And maybe (I'm guessing) expected him to resolve something that probably Hannah's parents should have done if they could have been informed. Maybe Tony should have told them???? I don't know. It's not as though the good kids (if there were any, according to Clay, who wondered if he wasn't a good kid himself) were, in this story, capable of formulating an effective response to an overwhelming problem. Did Hannah tell Tony about Jessica's rape? Did Hannah tell anyone? Shouldn't Hannah have told her own parents? More importantly, of course, shouldn't Justin have intervened in the first place? Shouldn't he have bludgeoned the rapist during the act? Of course.

By the way, Hannah wasn't mute. She could have spoken up for herself somewhere. She was a victim in terms of a crime, yes. And there at least one someone should have acted on her behalf. But in terms of daily life, there were opportunities for her socially to tell these people to drop dead and never to have anything to do with them. There was something she needed from them, and that was a problem. She couldn't extricate herself from them. She needed an identity outside of them. Maybe she was just young to know that. Again, what a horrible school. And what a horrible town. If you want your kids to thrive, move them as far away as possible.
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Old 05-15-17, 05:13 AM   #75
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

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Originally Posted by boonian androphile View Post
I agree that rape culture is a primary element of this show. And how those with power and those who abuse power circle the wagons for their own self-interest. And as I've said, the parents and teachers in this cozy little hell-town perpetuate the culture.

I think that the term drama queen was used by others to deflect their own responsibility in dealing with Hannah's attempts to speak out about how she felt people had wronged her. Tony himself after the fact said he regretted how he responded. He wished he had gone to the door. But by his own account, Hannah had been on his heels quite a lot. And maybe (I'm guessing) expected him to resolve something that probably Hannah's parents should have done if they could have been informed. Maybe Tony should have told them???? I don't know. It's not as though the good kids (if there were any, according to Clay, who wondered if he wasn't a good kid himself) were, in this story, capable of formulating an effective response to an overwhelming problem. Did Hannah tell Tony about Jessica's rape? Did Hannah tell anyone? Shouldn't Hannah have told her own parents? More importantly, of course, shouldn't Justin have intervened in the first place? Shouldn't he have bludgeoned the rapist during the act? Of course.

By the way, Hannah wasn't mute. She could have spoken up for herself somewhere. She was a victim in terms of a crime, yes. And there at least one someone should have acted on her behalf. But in terms of daily life, there were opportunities for her socially to tell these people to drop dead and never to have anything to do with them. There was something she needed from them, and that was a problem. She couldn't extricate herself from them. She needed an identity outside of them. Maybe she was just young to know that. Again, what a horrible school. And what a horrible town. If you want your kids to thrive, move them as far away as possible.
There it is again though "Hannah should have spoken up." That's blaming the victim. A victim of sexual assault is more likely to either blame themselves for the assault, or rationalize to the point where they aren't even sure what happened to them was assault. It started with tape one, the picture up her dress, she was sexually exploited and it began her spiral out of control. That was the moment that someone could have, should have stepped in and helped her. Most adult women would struggle to cope with something like that and she was a child. You ask where Hannah's parents were, but where were the parents of the boys who spread her picture around school or the teachers? Had even one school official been paying attention, those boys would have ended up on a sex offender registry.

I'm not a fan of the argument that Hannah or her parents should have done more. Don't put that on the victim and her family. ALL of the students should have done more. ALL of the parents should have done more. And the school stay damn sure should have done more.
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Old 05-15-17, 05:27 AM   #76
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
Okay, and what model do parents, or kids have to do all of those wonderful, pristine, perfectly idealogical things in your post, Boonian? Oh. We don't have any.

Instead we have a model and instructions for how to kill ourselves because of it.

How about creating a show where she's bullied, raped, but as you say, overcomes and survives through the good parenting and social connections of her friends?

Oh, that doesn't sell? THAT'S BECAUSE IT ISNT LIBERAL TORTURE PORN. Well, and also because parents would get upset on however the show handled it, whatever advice families or friends have. It'd never be correct enough or right enough for PC America. But showing the universal, horrific outcome and act of suicide? Sure, let's roll. Slap it on Netflix so kids everywhere can watch.
Did I say anywhere that 13 Reasons should be a model of optimism? Did I? Where did I say that? I said that this show should be a wake-up call to parents and young people alike.

If parents require a model of optimism to tell their kids that their lives are important, then at what point, one must ask, did their parenting take a vacation?

Her overcoming being bullied and raped wasn't going to happen in this story because it wasn't this story. Frankly I wished she had murdered the guy.

If Netflix, or media in general, is to blame then ban all violence in entertainment and be done with it. As I said, nothing in real life started with the internet. It's been here long before. In film and other media, there have been depictions of suicide. From the early days of quilled pens. Before the invention of paper. Now we have the internet and easy access to everything. What do we do about that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Honestly, I actually agree with Mattie here. The scene that depicted her committing the act was gratuitous. The scene for me that belonged in the story and made the most sense (if the idea is to depict how devastating suicide is to those left behind) is the one where her parents find her... That was torture to watch too, but at least sent the right message.
I don't think it was gratuitous. I think it was painful and harrowing. And I wish it didn't happen. But it did. As for the parents, yes, I felt horrible for them. But to have this happen under their noses, as Mr. Baker says, something more profound than an off-camera implication must occur. Otherwise, it's false. That's what I believe.
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Old 05-15-17, 05:31 AM   #77
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

The parents discovery could have been tackled without it being an off screen discovery and yet still not shown the actual act itself. IMO, it served nothing to show her actually committing the act.
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Old 05-15-17, 05:39 AM   #78
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Re: 13 Reasons Why - Netflix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ness View Post
There it is again though "Hannah should have spoken up." That's blaming the victim. A victim of sexual assault is more likely to either blame themselves for the assault, or rationalize to the point where they aren't even sure what happened to them was assault. It started with tape one, the picture up her dress, she was sexually exploited and it began her spiral out of control. That was the moment that someone could have, should have stepped in and helped her. Most adult women would struggle to cope with something like that and she was a child. You ask where Hannah's parents were, but where were the parents of the boys who spread her picture around school or the teachers? Had even one school official been paying attention, those boys would have ended up on a sex offender registry.

I'm not a fan of the argument that Hannah or her parents should have done more. Don't put that on the victim and her family. ALL of the students should have done more. ALL of the parents should have done more. And the school stay damn sure should have done more.
I agree that everyone should have done more. But I thought I was differentiating between the rape and earlier times. If I didn't make that clear, I apologize. However, I have said in earlier posts that you may or may not have read that adults should have been notified, especially no later than the stalking photos. Why doesn't Hannah tell her parents then? Is there a reason? But I do agree that once that first photo that Justin took was floating around, an adult should have intervened. But did an adult see the picture? I don't know. A kid, yes, should have intervened, but which of these kids were going to do that? But the stalking moment shouldn't Hannah have at least told her parents? She was afraid---she said so herself. So why didn't she? Maybe she didn't trust her parents enough. I don't know. Her parents themselves express that they had no idea what was going on. So why didn't they? I interpret that they had their own problems, and were a little dismissive.

You reference school officials? Did they even know? They seem like a clueless bunch to me. I wouldn't put them in change of maintenance, let alone school administration.
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