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LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

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Old 05-14-08, 09:17 PM   #11
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Re: Supposetahs...

Great analysis of the 'suppose' conundrum on LOST JMburger. I looke forward to see where it is going - can't contribute much these days but I'll see what I can come up with.

Off the cuff I think of several situations where the 'supposes' comes into formation.

* dreams fortelling the 'supposed' future or telling the protagonist what to do.

* the overal wants of an 'agenda' or underlying narrative telling some one what their 'suppose' to do,

*the individual telling themselves or an other telling someone else what their suppose to do.

* An overal sense of what to do in order to get to some likely outcome.
- a predetermined course or a course bearing required to get to some co'ordinate.

* A time travel type conundrum where A future is knowable and the past or present must define its outcomes by. This is difficult as their are differing types of 'knowledge' in relation to experience (actual knowledge over possible knowledge).

* Destiny. Everything is laid out in a certain pattern or plan and we can not escape our fates.
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Old 05-14-08, 09:49 PM   #12
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Re: Supposetahs...

now that jays has posted, all I can wonder is how something like synchronicity might tie into "supposetahs"..

perhaps when someone is on the right path, they receive these little acausal connecting principles in order to let them know this is what was supposetah happen...

like locke getting that blast of light from desmond as he hammered on the hatch he was supposetah get into...


just a thought..
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Old 05-14-08, 11:04 PM   #13
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Re: Supposetahs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by scotpgot View Post
I've oft wondered, with all his troubles, if Hurley really was supposed to be on the plane...

I don't see any Kate examples up there. Was there "supposed to" be a letter waiting for her at the motel...?
I always thought that Hurley was not supposed to be on the plane. And then I had a half-baked theory that this would be the supreme irony when he ends up saving them all. But that theory has been resigned to the dust bin. I still think that the character of Hurley is an interesting one to look at when discussing who was supposed to do what.
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Old 05-15-08, 12:06 AM   #14
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Re: Supposetahs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaystao View Post
* Destiny. Everything is laid out in a certain pattern or plan and we can not escape our fates.
It's officially a theory now that Jays is here. ;-) I think dreams and destiny (including time travel) are the important elements, although there is definitely a thread of social and family responsibility through most of the backstories, so maybe I have been selling that short. Jin compelled by Mr. Paik, Kate's obligation to her mother, Jack's failed obligation to rescue Christian in Australia, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yung23 View Post
now that jays has posted, all I can wonder is how something like synchronicity might tie into "supposetahs"..

perhaps when someone is on the right path, they receive these little acausal connecting principles in order to let them know this is what was supposetah happen...
Coincidence and synchronicity certainly seem to play into the supposetahs. When you aren't doing what you're supposetah, the Island serves you up something synchronus from your own life to change your course. If nothing else, they contribute to the overall feeling that this crew was fated to be where it is. Those elusive character connections seem like they must fit into this somehow.

In "Flashes Before Your Eyes," Desmond runs into Charlie who sparks a memory of the future. Sawyer encounters Christian and then conveys his message to Jack. Sawyer turns Cassidy into a con artist and she uses those skills to help Kate. The numbers travel around the globe to Hurley, who uses them to win the lottery. Jack estranges Christian who flees to Australia and brings Ana-Lucia along with him (who would not otherwise have come).

Hard to discern a clear pattern, but these encounters (unlike lottery girl, AnaL's partner, Shannon's dad, etc.) seem to have specific weight in the narrative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by time is a river View Post
I still think that the character of Hurley is an interesting one to look at when discussing who was supposed to do what.
Indeed. Was Hurley supposetah do something with all that money? Ironically, before crashing, Hurley arguably had more potential than anyone else to actually do something substantial with his life.
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Old 05-15-08, 04:31 AM   #15
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Re: Supposetahs...

I haven't much to add at this point, but the great list in post#4 seems to consist primarily of things that didn't come to pass, and that would have resulted in a much different show (or no show at all). So above and beyond the other patterns folks are noting, there seems to be a great deal of rhetorical irony: most of the the "supposedtahs" seem to imply the opposite, although some are straightforward directives.
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Old 05-15-08, 06:02 AM   #16
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Re: Supposetahs...

I think there are strong indications that much of the action on Lost is driven by people or actions that are indeed NOT what they're supposed to be. That's when the course-correction kicks in. Virtually nothing on Lost that was "supposed to" happen has happened on the first try, or in exactly the way or time it was "supposed to." (Or rather, if it happened the way it was supposed to the first time, how would we know? Boone dying is one of the few examples I can remember where there was a clear prediction/outcome. If Shannon was "supposed to" die, maybe it didn't stick out because it wasn't prevented.)

There's aggressive outreach by the universe, over and over again, "correcting" course -- whether the button or otherwise.

This makes me think of Eko dying. I wondered at the time, if he was supposed to die, why was Locke sent to save him from the polar bear? Maybe white smoke believed Eko was supposed to live, black smoke decided he was supposed to die.

The Island weirdness seems to arise from this tension, yin and yang constantly correcting each other. But at the same time there does seem to be some sort of universal path of destiny that the survivors ignore at their peril.
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Old 05-15-08, 07:43 AM   #17
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Re: Supposetahs...

Five of the Ocean Six (baby Aaron being the 6th) are on the nondream list.

Could that have meaning within the show?
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Old 05-15-08, 01:39 PM   #18
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Re: Supposetahs...

Lots of things to consider here. To be honest the thing which drew me to this thread somewhat was the fact that it reminded me of the scene in "Singing in the Rain" where one of the protagonists is taking linguistic lessons -

"Moses supposes his toesis are roses, Moses supposes eroniously"....

Don't know how that can apply just yet but I keep thinking about the complicantions of knowing what, when, which, who, how and where. In many ways it connects to what Bob S has been trying to figure out in "Their dreams come true" thread - his overall conclusion (one which has had many advocates and signs on Lost) is simplified into two 'sides' - light and dark on a playing field which might be summed up as 'the Island' or the human soul (both as an individual and as a race). Dualities in other words, just as Up and Down or stay or escape are similar and possibly often the same kind of conflict or battle.

This simplified base conclusion plays out quite well, with Homers meta-conflict coming to the fore (the bad guys do indeed wear suits) - the off Island and On Island conflicts juxstaposed to each other. But there are so many intricacies with all the bit parts and the how and why of it all, that to over simplify in such a way maybe a bit bias. My original understanding on the conflict was that there was a macro and micro alternative outlook - also an internal and external conflict and this primarily had something to do with morality and sensibility. That is to say there are those who play the game and then there is a singular event that occurs where the choice isn't one of winning or loosing but whether one still retains some aspect of their humanity at the end of it regardless.

There is another kind of supposes here - that is a moral, ethical one.

You are not suppose to do certain things regardless of the sensibility of how it occurs in the overall game because it is the 'moral' thing to do - the means justifies the end over its inverse - the ends justifies the means.

That's one way of looking at it. In regards to macro/micro what this really means is that there is a major conflict between 'groups' and agenda's occuring here and then there is a smaller one, an inner world that is occuring in mirror to the greater and this also has to be taken in to account and is just as important. The individual characters and their struggle to understand themselves and the world is juxstaposed with the struggle of the Island and it's groups. The past is juxstaposed with the present and now the future.

The supposes is an element that must account for all these various conflicts.

Desmond for instance saw a 'future' where a certain action resulted in him finding Penny but meant that Charlie would have to die. He knew what he was 'suppose' to do - what pattern he had to follow to achieve a certain end or co'ordinate. However he chose to save Charlie - a moral choice - this is what he was suppose to do to remain human. I don't think Desmond will see Penny in the same sense as he would have done should he have let Charlie die. Charlie too eventually sacrifices himself for 'the greater good' - once again a moral choice. What one must do in order to save both themselves and others in a world where the ends justifies the means - this is usually the most narratively defined way in which the protagonist can retain 'free will' in the face of pre-determined tyranny.

Off coarse that doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the game plan regardless. Espeacially when the players are often pawns themselves, often of their own mechanism's.

I recall a conundrum posted awhile ago about actual knowledge and possible knowledge - that is to say that the higher Ominpient God in 'knowing' the actuality of future events is in some ways 'enslaved' to that knowledge if indeed (in being all powerful) God is aware of its 'actual' existence - God in being the 'creator' of all that is MUST therein 'make it happen' as it were, even if that includes 'evil'. Thus god's divine plan is infallible - it's actuallity has already occured (but it inturn enslaves God to its own divinations regardless of its outcome). If the Jedeo Christian God only knows the 'possibility' of a future event (thereby precluding that there are other futures) this in some way limits the constraints of such a being which therein creates fallibility - which is not a defined property of such a being but of a 'lesser God' - (one of the answers to this conundrum is that God has an 'opportunity' out side the constraints of time and space in which to choose to create the Universe or not and that this 'one time' deal is only in this 'beyond' place - complete with picnic table).

This conundrum also applies to our losties and our 'Island' in how much they and it knows of the future as 'actual' and how much they know as a 'possibility'. Desmond forays into the past and what he 'knows' are more aligned with actuality (since he has already experienced his awareness) but he can make minute changes that have 'already happened' or will happen in his future (as long as he is unaware of them up to a point - like his phone call to Penny). His future 'flashes' in the present however are more in lign with possibility and he can make corrections to his present that he must continue to make untill the time is right.

(In this sense Charlie was meant to die all along but he was 'kept' alive so that he could play his part in munipulating the board and fufill his destiny).

Locke too is plagued with the conundrum of doing what is right in terms of being human and doing what is right because the Island tells him too - what is he 'suppose' to do in light of this - he plays a dangerous game between the two 'supposes', one which often leads his followers to harms way either because he 'gets it wrong' or because what he 'believes' (the island) in is not ethically concerned for the welfare of lesser beings on a micro level OR possibly it is important that people 'choose' their descision, their overall sacrifice (for the greater good).

There is also another type of conflict, another type of supposes I might add - the writers themselves and the constraints of writing a T.V series - I'm sure Eko was 'suppose' to do a few more episodes at least but he had to leave the show and so was killed off. The writers write things 'open ended' which is part of the problem - and eventually it's solution. But mainly it's a problem because all our theories are talking about a possibility then - the actuallity of LOSTS future is still in the realm of possibility - though I'd like to think there is an overall pre-determined 'END", the past is open ended enough that the bits and pieces can change along the way creating entirely knew ways of 'pervieving' that end and who or what might be involved.

That's enough for now I'm tired but heres a few dainties from Bob's TDCT thread now buried deep in it's recesses. Hope it helps - also adds a bit of color.


How events are 'munipulated' in season ONE - the supposes in action.



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Old 05-15-08, 02:04 PM   #19
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Re: Supposetahs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zahalsky View Post
Five of the Ocean Six (baby Aaron being the 6th) are on the nondream list.
Hurley's a dreamer, actually. I don't know if you can hold it against Aaron given his tender age...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaystao View Post
In many ways it connects to what Bob S has been trying to figure out in "Their dreams come true" thread
To some extent, this thread emerged out of that one. The "supposed to" idea had been rattling around in my head for some time, but as soon as you start considering it, you come to the sides/dreams question. And vice-versa.

I agree that there may be more than one side. In fact, I think there can't be less than four... but there is also a binary/duality theme here that may transcend the human (or mostly human) sectarian conflict.
Quote:
There is another kind of supposes here - that is a moral, ethical one.
And we've seen what happens if the Island finds you ethically wanting...

Quote:
However he chose to save Charlie - a moral choise - this is what he was suppose to do to remain human. ... Charlie too eventually sacrifices himself for 'the greater good' - once again a moral choice.
On the other hand, the human forces on the Island are constantly manipulating to tarnish morality. Locke is coerced into killing Cooper, Michael is coerced into springing Ben (although as Ben pointed out, he didn't tell Michael to shoot anyone).

Quote:
Off coarse that doesn't mean that it wasn't part of the game plan regardless. Espeacially when the players are often pawns themselves, often of their own mechanims.
The "game theory" approach to Lost is also interesting here. Are some players "pawns" (Locke) while others are basically free (Jack)? Or are they all pawns but some know the game (theoretically meaning they have more actual freedom to choose) and others don't (and are simply reactive like Jack)?

Quote:
...the higher Ominpient God in 'knowing' the actuality of future events is in some ways 'enslaved' to that knowledge... This conundrum also applies to our losties and our 'Island' in how much they and it knows of the future as 'actual' and how much they know as a 'possibility',
This ancient conundrum is usually resolved by placing God outside of time. The predestination trap is reserved for those who are trapped in linear time (Only fools are enslaved by time and space.) Desmond has (at least temporarily) transcended linear time by proving himself able to act contiguously across the timeline without being paralyzed by the paradox.

It's worth noting that D.L. has stated his favorite episode of Star Trek was TNG's "All Good Things" which "The Constant" clearly echoed.
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Old 05-15-08, 02:15 PM   #20
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Re: Supposetahs...

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Originally Posted by jmberger View Post
It's worth noting that D.L. has stated his favorite episode of Star Trek was TNG's "All Good Things" which "The Constant" clearly echoed.
Very interesting discussions here. Pardon this diversion but it's an "All Good Things", time travel and preganancy item:
Spoiler: "from Wikipeida:
The pregnant Alyssa Ogawa loses her baby due to this cell reversion, and individual DNA is starting to break down due to the anomaly's anti-time effects
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