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LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

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Old 03-18-08, 08:59 PM   #1001
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
The release of the magnetic anomaly, in Ben's words, allowed God to see the Island for the first time in long while.
Great update. This isn't a criticsm, just a question: When did Ben say that the implosion allowed "God to see the Island"? I know he told Locke God couldn't see it in S2, but I only remmber Ben mentioning that communications were lost b/c of the incident(lie) and I looked quickly through most of S3 and couldn't find it.

Or do you mean "see" the island just as Penny's listening station detected the temp EM discharge?

I guess I'm wondering if the island is "visible" or just "detectable".
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Old 03-18-08, 09:35 PM   #1002
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Great Post Bob. I still have serious reservations about most of your dream interpetations but I love this thread because it provokes a lot of thinking.
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Old 03-18-08, 09:48 PM   #1003
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Sorry Silver - I took a little artistic license there. Here is what Ben said to Locke while a prisoner in the Swan.

"God doesn't know how long we've been here, John. He can't see this island any better than the rest of the world can."

The key turning changed all of that, but it was only the first step. There was also work to be done at the radio tower and the Looking Glass. In addition to Penny I think Widmore had the freighter in the Island's vicinity, so he also detected the EM anomaly and Naomi was able to parachute in.
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Or do you mean "see" the island just as Penny's listening station detected the temp EM discharge?
Exactly.
Quote:
I still have serious reservations about most of your dream interpetations but I love this thread because it provokes a lot of thinking.
Thanks rk. You've always stuck to your guns and I respect that. A theory is only as good as the debate and thinking it generates. It would get awful boring in here if I only engaged posters who agree with me. A sad trend I've noticed around the board . . .
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Old 03-19-08, 06:47 AM   #1004
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

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Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
The release of the magnetic anomaly, in Ben's words, allowed God to see the Island for the first time in long while. Ever since the purge of Dharma, Ben had set up elaborate protocols to ensure that the Island, it's people, and their work would be hidden away from the rest of the world. The universe had finally made some progress in their attempt to release the Island from Ben's clutches. Ben had learned how to manufacture conveniences to cheat fate and the universe doesn't like it when fatalism is breeched.
The dreams and visions are critical to understanding the island but the underlying question is who is trying to hide the island and who is trying to reveal the island?
Are you saying that the players in this are:
Hide: Ben/Hostiles
Reveal: the universe/fate

Are you also including the island's involvement in the reveal side?
Where did we end up w/ the Emily vison the island provided Ben? Was it related to arranging the meeting of Ben & Alpert and ultimatley the purge which led to Ben's "elaborate protocols" of hiding the island? If not, this will probably not translate well:

What if the mysterious island is also on the "hide" side? (The EM barrier does seem like a protective shield, or was it an unintentional consequence of the incident Candle spoke of?
Regardless, your dream anlysis works but the motivations change.

In this context changing the word "remove" to "replace" (re: Ben). The island is always concerned about protecting itself so it chooses Locke, as you say, and provides him a miracle cure, a glimpse into its inner beauty and generates the dreams you reference to lead him on his journey, but(again as you say) he's a dope and constantly makes mistakes.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 03-19-08, 02:30 PM   #1005
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

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Originally Posted by Silver Hammer View Post
The dreams and visions are critical to understanding the island but the underlying question is who is trying to hide the island and who is trying to reveal the island?
Are you saying that the players in this are:
Hide: Ben/Hostiles
Reveal: the universe/fate
Hi Silver.
Keeping the Island hidden is Ben's primary objective. The Hostiles followed his wishes but we know from Richard that they are growing tired of him. He used his own personal demons to fuel the fertility work on the Island, but the Island revolted against him. Remember why Juliet was chosen and considered Special:
Quote:
RICHARD: You created life where life wasn't supposed to be.
It's my belief that human life is not supposed to be on the Island, and introducing conflict is a good method of extermination. It's a never-ending cycle of natives being replaced by Others.
Quote:
Are you also including the island's involvement in the reveal side?
I'm glad you brought that up. I believe the Island has always been naturally masked. The Swan station was built after the Incident to ensure that the electromagnetism was released every 108 minutes. But prior to that, the Island was still naturally hidden from the rest of the world. All we have is the Blackrock and a few small crafts that have been able to find it. The Island does want to be found but only as a means of releasing itself from Ben's control. Ben can never be a "Native" and his lies to the contrary tell us that despite his machinations he will never become what he truly aspires to be. All the proof we need is the spinal tumor that was supposed to kill him.
Quote:
Where did we end up w/ the Emily vison the island provided Ben? Was it related to arranging the meeting of Ben & Alpert and ultimatley the purge which led to Ben's "elaborate protocols" of hiding the island? If not, this will probably not translate well:
Richard was genuinely surprised to find young Ben and almost crapped his pants when the boy told him he saw his dead mother who died off of the Island. I could be reading that scene completely wrong, but I don't think so. The protocols to hide the Island are post-Incident because Ben and Co. altered the natural process on the Island. It's also possible that Incident was pre-Purge and Dharma had somehow compromised the Island's natural EM field.
Quote:
In this context changing the word "remove" to "replace" (re:Ben). The island is always concerned about protecting itself so it chooses Locke, as you say, and provides him a miracle cure, a glimpse into its inner beauty and generates the dreams you reference to lead him on his journey, but(again as you say) he's a dope and constantly makes mistakes.
Like all of us, he's human. The best parts of the Locke character are his flaws. A broken man who is cured has to believe in Something Bigger and Locke was the perfect candidate.. He's had these unique experiences and the Universe has been very patient with his blunders. Now, he is lost once again in New Otherton just as he was in the Swan. Once he leaves behind the modern conveniences and returns to the Jungle, we'll see a positive change in Locke. However, the Island and the Universe are only interested in Locke to play his part, like Charlie before him. I see only a tragic end for the character.
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Old 03-19-08, 06:36 PM   #1006
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Thanks for the clarification, I think we're seeing the same big picture.
Some minor questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
Remember why Juliet was chosen and considered Special: It's my belief that human life is not supposed to be on the Island, and introducing conflict is a good method of extermination.
I've always felt that the hostiles are advocates for the island's wishes. But this would be at odds w/ Richard's recruitment of Juliet. Did Ben convince them otherwise at the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
All the proof we need is the spinal tumor that was supposed to kill him.
Right the island wants him removed, but what do we make of the spinal surgeon saving Ben's life? Was Jack fated to be there and save Ben? or will this have to be course corrected b/c Ben had somehow cheated fate?
also, I added some Jack comments on the bottom I'm curious what you think.
btw, tumor: island created or side effect he possibly travel to/from the island often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
The protocols to hide the Island are post-Incident because Ben and Co. altered the natural process on the Island.
Protocols: The communication jamming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
It's also possible that Incident was pre-Purge and Dharma had somehow compromised the Island's natural EM field.
As you say earlier, the incident was prepurge; you're not changing your mind are you?
for my clarity, did you mean:
"It's also possible that Dharma had somehow compromised the Island's natural EM field during the pre-Purge Incident."

But I agree that the incident also created all sorts of mysteries yet to be revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
I see only a tragic end for the character.
TPTB will kill another "man of faith"?(i'm including Eko; albeit an imposter, but he did the best he could with the life he was dealt.) what are they implying?
Man of science triumphs?

Ben's "playing God" on the island in trying to create life where it shouldn't be may be the wedge between him and the island. But Jack, too, may believe he can perform miracles or "do God's work" since Sarah miraculouslly walked again despite what Jack thought was a failed surgery. He's so sure of his ability to overcome the odds(perform miracles) he becomes obsessed w/ saving Busoni(which he couldn't) that it changes Jack's good fortunes. Will Jack ever recover some "faith" to balance out his "science"? How does the universe feel about this?

Last edited by silver; 03-19-08 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 03-19-08, 08:32 PM   #1007
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Hammer View Post
I've always felt that the hostiles are advocates for the island's wishes. But this would be at odds w/ Richard's recruitment of Juliet. Did Ben convince them otherwise at the time?
We can only speculate because we don't know much about the Hostiles. Just when we thought Richard was laying the groundwork for a coup, Harper pops up in the jungle pushing Ben's plan. I was a little surprised to learn in the subtitled edition that Harper really was carrying out Ben's plan. I've written extensively about how Ben and the Others are the scientific mimics of the Island's faith based powers, but Harper changed all of that. Whoever they are they need Special people to guide them - to give them something to believe in - because they are not very self-sufficient. Their approach seems to be picking out individuals who exhibit a bond to the Island, i.e. folks whom they believe are chosen by the Island. But regarding Juliet, it was Ben who wanted to populate the Island and sent out Richard to recruit a fertility specialist. He was just following orders.
Quote:
Right the island wants him removed, but what do we make of the spinal surgeon saving Ben's life? Was Jack fated to be there and save Ben? or will this have to be course corrected b/c Ben had somehow cheated fate?
Jack wasn't even on Jacob's list, and it was only through information gathering that Juliet found out he was a spinal surgeon. It was only a happy coincidence for Ben that a spinal surgeon was among the survivors. But was Jack fated to be on the flight - of course, they all were.
Quote:
btw, tumor: island created or side effect he possibly travel to/from the island often?
I'm sticking with Island-created but I does feel like we are finally going to learn about Ben's paranormal abilities and potential time travel. But we saw Minkowski die and Desmond with the nosebleed, so the tumor seems misplaced.
Quote:
Protocols: The communication jamming?
The Swan and The Looking Glass kept the Island from being found and the submarine provided a covert method of transportation.
Quote:
As you say earlier, the incident was prepurge; you're not changing your mind are you?
for my clarity, did you mean:
"It's also possible that Dharma had somehow compromised the Island's natural EM field during the pre-Purge Incident."
Yes - I'm only guessing that the Incident was after the Purge because it's a whole lot cooler if Ben engineered it. We'll learn more in Ben's next FB.
Quote:
TPTB will kill another "man of faith"?(i'm including Eko; albeit an imposter, but he did the best he could with the life he was dealt.) what are they implying?
Man of science triumphs?
Men of faith see themselves as serving the Greater Good and being propelled towards destiny by a higher power. Conversely, men of science are self-centered, rational and do not believe that anything exists that is bigger than they are. When Jack sees Vision Christian, he wanted so badly not to believe it because it defied rational thought. It shouldn't be there, so therefore it couldn't be there. We know now that Vision Christian exists on the Island - and that Jack has had a change of heart in his FF. He's become a man of faith the hard way.
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Old 03-19-08, 10:36 PM   #1008
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Quote:
Bob: But was Jack fated to be on the flight - of course, they all were.
Bob you touched upon Desmond in your recap summary. I read you talking about the universe, fate, destiny, the island... How Charlie and Locke are used as means to an end. But what end?

Ever since the Constant something has been nagging me regarding Desmond and fate.

Several fated and manipulated events via Island powers:
- Desmond crashes on the island and is put to work: saving the world by pushing the button. I'm wondering whether the island/universe did not trust Inman to persist in his mission - keeping the world from being sucked to nano size - and grabbed its chance with Desmond: Inman played around with turning the key, repaired the boat and wished to leave, even invite Des along when he was caught, not caring about the button anymore. Are we really sure whether Radzinski committed suicide, or did Inman have anything to do with it? Why do I consider it fate: Mrs Marple-look-alike told Desmond.
- Yes, the Losties were all fated to be on the flight. Who crashed them? Desmond did.
- Boone and Locke find the hatch. What and who is in it? Desmond and his button.
- Locke tarries by bringing in the family, and a dream sends him to find the beechcraft, yet meanwhile the island makes sure Locke can't climb himself, and Boone has to climb up and falls to his near-death. Why Boone? Well, he is prone to do the wrong heroic thing: not able to resuscitate Rose, useless pens, trying to use a cellphone that doesn't work, drowning himself almost while trying to rescue somebody else, ... That fall resulted in Locke banging the hatch and saving Desmond from killing himself. Had they found the Pearl, they would have seen Desmond and both go back for him immediately, thus save him, and I doubt Locke would have kept it secret there was a man down in the hatch.
- Jack gathers a team to bust the hatch... so it are several Losties who crashed on the island by Desmond's own actions who free Desmond from the hatch. Somehow Desmond "helped himself" to free himself from the button by crashing his saviours on the island.
- Desmond steals away on his repaired sailing boat, and goes missing for weeks. Meanwhile Locke who started pushing the button as if it was his ultimate destiny in life starts to have doubts. A dream sends Eko and Locke (two men of faith) to the Pearl, where Eko accepts his new temp job and Locke is pushed into denial. Locke's character is one where he'll try to prove a negative. But he can't do that before Des returns, and so Eko had to step in for a short while. Des returns and Locke seizes the moment. It results in getting rid of the Swan, by having Desmond turn the key. We know Desmond was fated to do this, per the words of Mrs-Marple-look-alike.
- the turning of the key enables the outside world to detect the island, with the outside world being Penny for sure, and highly likely Widmore's freighter. Both belong to Desmond's background story... again!
- Penny starts to send a constant call to the detected position. It's Charlie who receives the message and mentions Desmond to her, after he stopped the jamming, as predicted in the S2 island dream, and because the island events gave Desmond some Charlie-selective super powers to keep him alive long enough to complete this mission. Once again it's Desmond who benefits from this train of events.
- meanwhile the freighter sends Naomi onto the island with a picture of Desmond, claiming they'll save the Losties. The same actions taken by Desmond and Charlie (as predicted in the S2 dream) that results in receiving Penny's message, also result in Jack (who crashed on the island because of Desmond) calling the freighter and thereby giving the freighties the needed data to get to the island with a helicopter, that takes off the next day again and delivers Desmond to the freighter.
- the trip to the freighter has some side effects, making army Des's 1996 mind jump to the freighter and forces him in 1996 to sway Penny to wait for him for another 8 years (and end up in prison) and have him call her in 2004, and both proclaim their love to each other. This phone call will have a deeper impact than just love declarations: Widmore can't dump Desmond as easily as he might have wanted. Penny's knowledge that he's alive and where he is (island and freighter) because of that phone call is Desmond's life insurance.
- meanwhile Michael's used too: he's sabotaging the boat, set Desmond free to make that phonecall, and by sabotaging the communication systems disabled the boat from informing Widmore that Des is on their boat, and so he was unable to order them to dump Desmond before Penny got wind of it.

Seeing the pattern?

Remember the scene in Locke's drug trip: Pilot Desmond with 3 flight attendants by his side while they only had eyes for him, and Boone telling Locke not to worry about Desmond because he helps himself. I've always likened those three almost nymph-like flight attendants to the Three Fates (creatures in Greek Mythology who stand for fate).

That image can almost be translated into its literally meaning. Destiny/fate is on Desmond's side and it only has eyes for him. It's all happening because and for Desmond. He's the pilot, the lead of the story (everyone else is ground personnel or a passenger). And indeed by crashing the Losties Desmond has helped himself: he was found, saved and freed; brought into contact with his true love, got away from the island on a helicopter, and helped himself in procuring Penny's patience as well as his life insurance.

Why destiny/fate and the island is nudging along Losties to release Desmond from the island is still a mystery to me. I'm not so sure it's for "true love" (hmm, the princess bride all the way) or because Desmond will take other future actions that will help the island for an island-centric-agenda.

On another note... remember Charlie's butcher dad pointing to Charlie and telling him he needs a trade. I thought his father was the warning symbol about how his actions would bring "butchers" on the island. But wasn't sure yet what the trade-mentioning was about. Well that seems more clear now, since the time we know the freighties want Ben.
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Last edited by sweetsunray; 03-19-08 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 03-19-08, 10:43 PM   #1009
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
We can only speculate because we don't know much about the Hostiles. Just when we thought Richard was laying the groundwork for a coup, Harper pops up in the jungle pushing Ben's plan. I was a little surprised to learn in the subtitled edition that Harper really was carrying out Ben's plan.
Sure, but the hostiles would rather have the threat they know than the one they don't know on the island. So they'll rely on their current leader to remove the new threat.(IMO)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
Whoever they are they need Special people to guide them - to give them something to believe in - because they are not very self-sufficient. Their approach seems to be picking out individuals who exhibit a bond to the Island, i.e. folks whom they believe are chosen by the Island.
Interesting view and would explain why they require that special person w/ island bonds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
Jack wasn't even on Jacob's list, and it was only through information gathering that Juliet found out he was a spinal surgeon. It was only a happy coincidence for Ben that a spinal surgeon was among the survivors. But was Jack fated to be on the flight - of course, they all were.
Coincidence for Ben, but fate for Jack to be on the flight. Ok, but the one hang-up I have w/ fate/predermination is what level of detail is planned out? Was this surgery always for Jack to perform? If not, is Ben due for some course correcting? (I know this is a dynamic story, but eventually it has to be one or the other).

I know what Ms. Hawking's told Des but what if her comments are interpreted this way:
Des had decided in his first pass in life that he would not propose to Penny which led to the sailing race... turning the key. That path happened. Maybe Ms. Hawking is merely referring to the fact that once that path happens, it cannot change. Free will moving forward, but no mulligans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
The Swan... kept the Island from being found [/COLOR]Yes - I'm only guessing that the Incident was after the Purge because i[COLOR=black]t's a whole lot cooler if Ben engineered it. We'll learn more in Ben's next FB.
Then why would Ben taunt Locke to stop pushing the button in "Dave"? A test? I've been hung up on this detail in many theories I've read. b/c if it was important as we've been led to believe why didn't he have his own "dependable button pusher" in the swan? I know he probably kept tabs on Kelvin/Des from the Pearl, but if it was important...

If we believe the Swan film the procedure was designed to correct the incident's mistake, not necessarily hide the island. The island was hidden by itself, but the incident's effect would create a situation that would allow it to be seen unless the procedure was performed.(does that make sense?)
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Old 03-20-08, 12:57 AM   #1010
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

That was an oustanding post sweetsunray
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