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LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

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Old 07-21-09, 06:07 AM   #11
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

The Goal
I think the challenge that is presented to any who are drawn to the Island has mainly to do with the unique energy source there. Though some have come before the 'Computer Age', 'Rocket Age', even the 'Industrial Age', it doesn't matter (for it could be possible that the Wheel was put in place by a previous 'group' that was drawn there long ago).
So people come to the Island, find an energy/power/magic source and then seek to put it to use. Along the way human nature manifests itself- both in creativity and ingenuity, as well as avarice and treachery... ambition leading to corruption.
Nemesis maintains that it will always "end that way" where as Jacob contends that each time it happens there is progress made toward an eventual success when man will realize the various potentials, and the healing and power of the 'magic box' without turning into a complete jerk about it.

The Manifestations
Christian: Jack's pursuit of the image of his Dad almost lead to his death, falling off the bluff that Locke rescued him from. I see this this 'cat &mouse' game as nothing but malicious, instigated by Nemesis, with the intent of Jack winding up dead.The death of the potential leader of the Losties would help to hasten the failure of the group as a whole, something Nemesis would consider inevitable
Jack found the water/caves after this was over.

Yemi: Eko's pursuit of the image of his brother did lead to his death. Smokie had been pursuing Eko all the while he trekked toward the beechcraft; in fact seemed ready to pounce on him near the creek before Locke & Co. showed up. It may be that Locke's presence stays the beast. The image of Yemi lured him away from the close proximity of Locke and into the jungle to a waiting Smokie.
Nemesis would be glad to be rid of a man who had such strength of conviction.

Dave: The image of 'Dave' tried to get Hurley to kill himself. Nemesis again. The guileless nature of Hugo Reyes would be a great threat to Nemesis' position that 'all of humanity is corrupt'.

Walt: The images of Walt got Shannon killed, creating dissension between some of the previously separated passengers. Later the image got Locke to murder Naomi causing big, important problems between the Freighties and the Losties

Christian again: Appearing to Claire- To separate her from Aaron (possibly his nemesis).
Appearing to Locke- To get him (and Ben) to initiate the events that lead to the utilization of the 'loophole'. Moving the Island was not necessary and was a mistake. So was bringing back the O6... initially.
Appearing to Michael- Nemesis gloating.

Ben's Mother: Entices Ben through intrigue to betray and eventually help slaughter the D.I. population, whom enjoyed a long truce with Jacob's people. We still as yet do not know what lead to the 'Purge'. Machinations of Nemesis through Ben?

Jacob seems to strive to influence people through aspects of their better nature (something Nemesis doesn't acknowledge is there). The above deceptions, images representing someone who really isn't there, I attribute to Nemesis, causing fear and confusion.
The following few I attribute to Jacob:

Kate's Horse: As I stated before this image represented Hope, even Forgiveness.I don't think it was actually Jacob per se, but perhaps a conjuration of sorts on his part, or even an actual horse (escaped from Zoocatraz, maybe) that Jacob brought to be at that place and at that time.
Locke's 'Soul of the Island': Difficult because we have so little to go on, even the testimony of Locke himself concerning this event can be suspect. Perhaps another conjuration of Jacob's. It may have been an image shown by Smokie, displaying images (from one's mind) is one of the things that has been proven that Smokie can do. If so, might it have been an image from Locke's own mind? An abstract representation of Locke's own hopes and dreams? That might explain why Locke thought it was "beautiful".

The Cabin
I think the Cabin was a 'sanctified' place (made so by the circle of protection around it) where the Hostiles/Others (or at least the Leader) could always be certain that the person inside was definitely Jacob, and not some devious impostor. When the circle was broken, that certainty was compromised and the Cabin becomes useless, even dangerous.
I don't think Horace had anything to do with the cabin. He may have had a schematic of the Cabin in his pocket as a result of intelligence gathering regarding important Hostile 'areas' , something that would concern him being a staff member of the Arrow station.

More on The Numbers.
(An expansion of the idea presented earlier in this thread)
Spoiler: not spoiler- a bit of a rehash plus
The numbers are mainly connected (in the show) to the character Hugo Reyes. Some fans would like to see a further reveal regarding the significance of each number. But look at Hurley's backstory; at one time he walked out upon a deck where there was a gathering of people and the deck collapsed, killing and injuring several people.
Now, what was the gathering? Who exactly were the people who were killed or injured? Where did this occur?... etc. None of this is actually relevant to the state of mind that Hurley came away with, a sense of guilt that devastated him.
The numbers are figures that indicate measure, a numerical account of a fated doom.
Even when the numbers come up regarding other characters it's usually negative, pertaining to some form of guilt on the part of that character, but especially Hugo.
Hugo is beset with a guilt complex so persistent that it is like his faults are being reiterated like a continuous broadcast echoing through his soul.
Even his obesity could be construed as symbolic of a great inner burden that weighs him down.
What the numbers specifically indicate does not matter, only the possibility that one can rise and go beyond them does. To seek the variable.
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Old 07-21-09, 05:22 PM   #12
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Only comment is that "Dave" was never real. He was always in Hurley's head. The other ...manifestations that the various characters "chased" were real at one point or another. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

Why would the Nemesis manifest as Dave and not say..Hurley's mom..or Randy Nations...or Starla..or any other person from his past? Why as a halucination?
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Old 07-22-09, 12:41 AM   #13
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinHobbesLocke View Post
Only comment is that "Dave" was never real. He was always in Hurley's head. The other ...manifestations that the various characters "chased" were real at one point or another. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

Why would the Nemesis manifest as Dave and not say..Hurley's mom..or Randy Nations...or Starla..or any other person from his past? Why as a halucination?
After learning that Hurley regularly sees dead people, doesn't that open the door to the possibility that Dave was once "real" and is in his head along with Ana, Eko, Charlie et al? The only difference is we don't know how of if Dave is somehow connected to the island.
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Old 07-22-09, 01:05 AM   #14
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

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Originally Posted by Wicked Lost View Post
After learning that Hurley regularly sees dead people, doesn't that open the door to the possibility that Dave was once "real" and is in his head along with Ana, Eko, Charlie et al? The only difference is we don't know how of if Dave is somehow connected to the island.
To add to this, Hurley's mom and Starla aren't dead.

I agree with WL in that Dave was probably "real" at one time and Hurley knew him when he was alive.

The difference between Hurley and Miles is that Hurley knows the people he see's in his visions... and those visions can physically touch Hurley. Miles can hear the dead but he doesn't see them or have any physical interaction with his visions.

Dave, Charlie, and Ana Lucia all have the ability to touch Hurley. Hurley wasn't present when Charlie or Ana Lucia were killed but he still feels deeply about them dying. I'm thinking that it is the same way with Dave. IMO

I wouldn't be at all surprised if we had seen Teresa Tanaka come and talk to Hurley either. Dave may not be connected to the island but he did have a deep connection with Hurley.
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Old 07-22-09, 01:11 AM   #15
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_C View Post
Walt: The images of Walt got Shannon killed, creating dissension between some of the previously separated passengers. Later the image got Locke to murder Naomi causing big, important problems between the Freighties and the Losties
I don't believe the appearances of Walt to Shannon were of Nemesis, except possubly the last one. I think the nature of the comminication, the water, the backwards-speak. was Walt rying to get a handle on his "powers." I think Nemesis may have used that knowledge to lure Shannon to her eventual death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_C
Christian again: Appearing to Claire- To separate her from Aaron (possibly his nemesis).
Appearing to Locke- To get him (and Ben) to initiate the events that lead to the utilization of the 'loophole'. Moving the Island was not necessary and was a mistake. So was bringing back the O6... initially.
Appearing to Michael- Nemesis gloating.
Again, I think some of Christian's appearances may have been MiB, but the later ones. The early ones, I'm not so sure. That was apparently the real body, maybe Nemesis was using it, but later on I think he had taken the form of Christian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_C
Kate's Horse: As I stated before this image represented Hope, even Forgiveness.I don't think it was actually Jacob per se, but perhaps a conjuration of sorts on his part, or even an actual horse (escaped from Zoocatraz, maybe) that Jacob brought to be at that place and at that time.
See, I think the horse was real, and it was one of the horses, or the progeny, of the horses Charles and Eloise were riding around. The horse that ran in front of the car the Marshall was driving, that could have been Jacob, or MiB's, doing, but off island.
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Old 07-22-09, 10:49 AM   #16
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_C View Post
Christian: Jack's pursuit of the image of his Dad almost lead to his death, falling off the bluff that Locke rescued him from. I see this this 'cat &mouse' game as nothing but malicious, instigated by Nemesis, with the intent of Jack winding up dead.The death of the potential leader of the Losties would help to hasten the failure of the group as a whole, something Nemesis would consider inevitable
Jack found the water/caves after this was over.
I don't think so. Christian leads Jack to the water and caves. He draws his attention when Jack sits crying at his little campfire.

Jack's rescue by Locke can be viewed as a necessary step, where he realizes he cannot do everything by himself. It is a prelude to his "Live together, die alone" speech later in the episode. Furthermore, his conversation with Locke emphasizes choice. Jack said earlier that he made a decision to let Joanne die, and now he has a decision about whether or not Christian is real or just an hallucination. A decision to be a leader, or not. "A leader can't lead until he knows where he is going," Locke says.

As you say, Jack was a potential leader. Jack's adventures in White Rabbit cemented him as an actual leader.
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Old 08-14-09, 06:24 AM   #17
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinHobbesLocke View Post
Only comment is that "Dave" was never real. He was always in Hurley's head. The other ...manifestations that the various characters "chased" were real at one point or another. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

Why would the Nemesis manifest as Dave and not say..Hurley's mom..or Randy Nations...or Starla..or any other person from his past? Why as a halucination?
I think this puts Hurley in a much more challenging situation. If he sees one hallucination, might it all be one?
His mother telling him to jump off a cliff will just make him run off- all freaked out.
I don't think he would ever trust Randy.
Starla? or even his old buddy 'whatshisname'? Possible, but again- who would present the idea that 'the Island is all in his head' better than someone who he knows is only in his head?
If he understands what the Dr. said, that 'Dave' is an alternate self (more or less), then even Hugo might come to the conclusion that this appearance of Dave is just an effort on his own part to 'wake himself up'.

ETA - There also seems to be a contrast between Santa Rosa Dave and Island Dave, especially when it comes to food. Hospital Dave supported Hurley's indulgence whereas Island Dave referred to it in a negative manner.
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Old 08-27-09, 09:33 AM   #18
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by treesong View Post
I don't think so. Christian leads Jack to the water and caves. He draws his attention when Jack sits crying at his little campfire.
I'm gonna have to watch that again, apparently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by treesong View Post
...Jack was a potential leader. Jack's adventures in White Rabbit cemented him as an actual leader...
'Potential' may very well be the operative word regarding affairs on the Island.
Now, there is no way to discern the reason for the pilot being killed by Smokie, but a lot to consider when it comes to Eko.
I have been recently thinking about the 'power' or 'energy' that is on the Island, and if that 'power' was available to just anybody, 'potential' being a key factor in many ways.
I wonder if Eko was killed because of his potential ability to tap into that power, and the further potential to cause great harm should that occur.

On a different subject, but another aspect of that segment is Yemi's line
Quote:
"You talk/speak to me as if you were my brother."
Now, speculating that Yemi is actually Nemesis, could he actually have been referring to Jacob? For the argument that Eko made for himself Jacob might make the same for mankind; that 'they did the best they could with what they got'.
I know that it's high speculation that they are brothers, but if his name turns out to be Esau...

Eko was messed up, but he 'progressed'. Another reason for Nemesis to want him dead?
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Old 08-27-09, 02:58 PM   #19
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_C View Post


Eko was messed up, but he 'progressed'. Another reason for Nemesis to want him dead?


Something along the lines of achieving enlightenment and breaking the kharmic wheel?
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Old 08-28-09, 09:09 AM   #20
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Re: + The Weaver and The Reaver

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I wonder if Eko was killed because of his potential ability to tap into that power, and the further potential to cause great harm should that occur.
I think he indeed had that potential. And I think that Smokey, as a security system, mainly has a preventive role. It's not a janitor that cleans up the mess afterwards. At least, it tries not to be.

The Cost of Living was to not realize those potentials.


Quote:
Now, speculating that Yemi is actually Nemesis, could he actually have been referring to Jacob? For the argument that Eko made for himself Jacob might make the same for mankind; that 'they did the best they could with what they got'.
I know that it's high speculation that they are brothers, but if his name turns out to be Esau...
Even if Yemi is just Yemi, their story could still parallel that of "Esau" and Jacob. But I think Jacob's claim is actually that mankind can outdo itself.

Other than that, I don't have a real opinion on Nemesis being Esau. There are parallels, there are differences. It could go either way, but I'm not sure I'd like it if he were Esau.


Quote:
Eko was messed up, but he 'progressed'. Another reason for Nemesis to want him dead?
Was it really progress? He failed to take responsibility for the deaths he caused. He denied that he had made a choice when killing the old priest, and further claimed that the whole sequence of choices that made up his life had been out of his hands.

Yemi's coldness towards Eko reminds me more of Jacob's attitude towards Ben. And I would say that confessing, showing remorse and a penitent heart, are more in line with progress.

Isn't the Old Testament God supposed to be the unloving one --except for Jacob--, and the Devil the sweet talker?
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