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Old 08-31-17, 05:47 AM   #51
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

Sandman is basically the story of NG not understanding women, but really really wanting to.

The story of Nada is a man's story, but... to paraphrase... the women may have another story. But that is a woman's story, and it is never told to men.

This entire narrative is the Kindly Ones, and the Kindly Ones are merely the representation of the female, all of it. It simplifies to Maiden/Mother/Crone, the stages of life, but complicates by that trinity having so many different aspects.

In Vol 9, when Rose is hanging out with the old ladies in England, "Women are about WAKING, Rose. As mothers we wake them from nothingness to existence. As maidens we wake them to the joy and miseries of adulthood, wake them to the worlds of lust and responsibility. And when their time is up, it's always US has to wash them for the last time, and we lay them out for the wake."

He encompasses neatly what the ACTUAL role of women is. With, yk, patriarchy and all that, there has already existed a concept of "women's work." But it isn't washing dishes and doing laundry. All of that is cultural and coincidental. It's anti-feminist and boringly wrong. Men can do THAT "women's work." But there is certain women's work that is biological. And I think that Gaiman does so much in terms of transvestite and transsexual and homosexual playing in his books, to point out that the essence of female will always be the essence of female. And he doesn't limit this to cis-female because of Wanda, who at the end is beautiful, just beautiful, and utterly female. It isn't a body, it's a CONCEPT. But the biology itself is wrapped around that concept-- that male and female are different things, with different stories, and different roles.

Men's stories, and women's stories.

To Gaiman, the role of women is WAKING. And the male? The protagonist himself? Dreaming.

I think THAT is my main issue with this series, but it's not really an issue, because it's a male writer. For him, men have dreams. Women have reality-- they wake. He never really understands the concept of a female dream. But he wouldn't, would he? That's a woman's story, and it's not told to men.

The true glory of reading this man's story, being a woman, is that it isn't the smurfs. There are good women, and bad women, and strong women, and lazy women, women who make bad choices and women who make good choices and women who are kind of in between. So a man wrote this but he was actually TRYING to recognize... personhood. That's why it denies Max Barry's words. The females of Sandman are people. Not "strong female characters." Just people.

Something that is bothering/interesting to me, to asterisk something already said, the one time he really, REALLY tries to figure out a female dream, in Vol 5 with Barbie, it is the dream of a child.

But we can forgive Gaiman. Because he does so much in terms of NOT making up "strong female characters" and instead just making real female characters, and because, as mentioned above in reference to the Warty thread, Gaiman recognizes being a bitch. No lady wants her nasty side pointed out. You would not want to meet us as the Kindly Ones.

But women are the biology that drives the world. He has no way of knowing female dreams-- that is a woman's story-- but he goes so deep into female reality. The Trinity. We spin the thread, we weave, we cut. And the story of humanity is male reaction to this-- life and reproduction and death. And "Sandman" is, definitely the story of humanity.
Men, in Gaiman's world, have dreams because they only glance, fleetingly, upon these basic tenets. There is sex, yes, but that's the only stage which actually requires their participation. And Morpheus, still, walks that thin thread with his relations-- Nada the maiden, Calliope the mother, Thessaly the crone.

But this is all a dream. The Trinity give it birth and they lead the Sandman back to his kingdom. They demonstrate life through all of their aspects. They bring the death of Dream-- in the maiden Nuala who summons him to death, in the mother Lyta, in the crone Thessaly.

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Old 08-31-17, 06:26 AM   #52
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

I think NG acknowledges female dreams in several places, and his own lack of understanding of those dreams is implicit, as you point out very well.

Definitely agree that one of the big appeals of the series, for me at least, is/was realistic women, and a realistic range thereof. And i think NG writing it at that time, ~ 1989-1995, when there was such a dearth of that and such a wealth (and yes i use that term a little sarcastically here) of smurf stories, definitely has a lot to do with why i revere Sandman as much as i do. And i'm not at all bitter that i collected the whole series (mostly in trades but i had a few arcs in individual original prints) only to leave them with my ex-gf from '93~'96; i collected all the trades twice more and gave those away too.

Speaking of King's IT, are you planning to see the new film?
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Old 08-31-17, 06:31 AM   #53
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

Crap i forgot to mention a couple interesting related points.

First is that in most older myth structures, waking is associated with The Sun and is therefore male in essence, while dreaming is related to The Moon and is therefore female in essence. I love(/d) that Gaiman flipped this concept on its side by making Dream male, Death female, and Desire both.

Now i again don't remember the other thing i was going to say. I probably should drink more.
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Old 08-31-17, 06:33 AM   #54
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

Oh, sure, I'll see the new film.

And, seriously, I've read "It" likely upwards of a dozen times. Love that book.

But it's Smurfs. And, yk, I can deal with it so well because girls are so programmed to deal with Smurf stories and still enjoy them. EVERYTHING Max Barry says is true.

Girls are programmed to relate to male characters. The reverse is absolutely not the case in our world.

Gaiman is stumbling all around his life-long quest to figure out what "female" is.
But in doing so, he really does so many things right.
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Old 09-01-17, 02:55 AM   #55
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

One traditionally female aspect of Death is the Valkyries, who hail from the Old Norse tales that NG loves so well. But the Valkyries were choosy and judgy, while Goth Girl Death is there for everyone.

Another thing i wanted to mention is the parents. Night and Time are both traditionally more often considered to be female concepts. Night is fairly obvious, being all dark and mysterious, but also we've often been told that men have a compass and women have a clock, a "biological clock." Yes, there are old pictures of Father Time that surface around New Year's, but NG didn't feed us that tripe, his Father Time is male because time is a persistent illusion.

Idk if you remember, vonne, but i read that Max Barry piece a while ago and commented that i'd never liked the Smurfs, but never really stopped to think about why i didn't like them. It's a great piece.
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Old 09-14-17, 01:37 AM   #56
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Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

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8 was just poorly placed. I mean, coming off of the intensity of Brief Lives, then I get like, practically NO Morpheus, a total break from the storyline that's been building so that we can sit around in an inn and listen to people blather on about their stupid non-Morpheus selves. It killed the momentum. If anything, put it AFTER Kindly Ones to let us calm down a little bit, before slamming us with Wake.



In short:

Not enough Morpheus.


8 was a victim of circumstance. I can't
say it was placed was a mistake, but where it was placed was bound to make it pale in comparison to what was around it.

To make a sports analogy, it was the ultimate let down game: Placed where it was supposed to be placed but it was inevitably going to come out a bit flat.

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I think we can fairly attribute the difference in opinion to personal taste. I will admit that it left me a bit itchy on my first time through the series, but on rereads i've come to appreciate the stories told much more


The stories were great, but the lack of Morpheus after what proceeded it was...
well.. see above.

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Old 09-14-17, 01:43 AM   #57
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Gaiman's Sandman GD *spoilers after page 1*

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Corinthian > Vampires

Sorry not sorry


Definitely.

I still want that series I talked about.

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I guess the only real argument against that is that vampires can make more vampires, while the Corinthian was sorta stuck being unique.

I mean, in general i agree with you, but there are some things about vampires that resonate in ways that the Corinthian never could. "I created you to be a dark mirror," i think Morpheus tells him, and Morpeus admits that the Corinthian is a flawed, petty creation.

Not to imply that vampires aren't flawed and petty. They are, down to the very last bloodsucker.

So i think what i'm trying to say is that while the Corinthian may be better than any vampire, vampireS are still better than the Corinthian. It's a near thing though i suppose.


Corinthian #1 maybe...

Corinthian #2... no way. He was awesome.

I'm not using spoiler tags for anything, just for the record.


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I walk across the dreaming sands, under the pale moon...

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Old 09-14-17, 01:53 AM   #58
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman General Discussion

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Oh, yeah, Mr. Mo, I've read both of the Deaths and The Dream Hunters, and (multiple times) Endless Nights. The next up for me in the Sandman cottage industry is "the memory trilogy" that NG did with McKean.

I've got Dream Hunters, Endless Nights, and Overture.

They've got a nice little Death package with both together and I am down for that as I am madly in love with her.

I'm wary of going any further down the rabbit hole. I don't want to diminish or dilute the greatness of the series.




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Old 09-14-17, 02:01 AM   #59
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman General Discussion

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I did mean Destruction (didn't want to spoil Warty).

Death is only for the living.

Destruction is part of physics, not biology. All of the universe is little Abner Doons, because only through destruction is there creation.


Destruction is a part of physics and to illustrate his apartness from the others, he is the only one to walk away. I understand there is no definitive link to the him walking away and him being the one whose purpose is not necessarily tied to biology, but it is interesting.


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Old 09-14-17, 02:08 AM   #60
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Re: Gaiman's Sandman General Discussion

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So with that broad concept of life in mind, i think Destiny is the only one of the Endless who exists even without life.

Possibly Destruction as noted by Vonne.

With Destiny though... I am not sure I think about Destiny outside of living beings. I mean I get what you mean, but the distinction for Destruction seems more clear.

Without destruction and life, the universe just sits and exists.




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