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LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

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Old 12-14-06, 12:27 PM   #21
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

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What struck me about that Locke dream was that it was Eko's dream in the worng cranium. Plus the little mixed up details regarding the wheel chair and what-not. The island strangeness that caused it seemed to be unable to differentiate between individual humans.

I believe we saw another aspect of that when Eko, gathering itself to strike Eko at the river bank, flees when a group approaches. It only approaches him when he is alone at the Pearl enterance, and even then Yemi turns and walks into the jungle luring Eko further from the group.
I thought this was weired too but you put your nose on the button. A blurring of character, of mentality, of disposition. The most famous scene to mind in regards to this idea of 'transference' used in the dream sequences is when Jack is talking to Kate behind the glass wall, and we clearly see their images, their perspectives, their personalities almost - merging with one another in the glass reflection. I am you, and you are me (an exhibit in the local technology museum distorts light on two oppsing glass surfaces to create a merging of opposing persons). You all every body!
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Old 12-14-06, 06:37 PM   #22
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

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Originally Posted by rknorton91 View Post
Yet Eko answers that he was told in a dream to build the church... well technically he says he thinks it was a dream.
rk, thanks again for your comments. We found out in High Cost of Living why Eko started building the church on the island:
Quote:
AMINA: They are boarding up the church. We can no longer use it.
EKO: This is Yemi's church. You have no right to do this!
AMINA: It is no longer sacred! And one day you'll be judged for what you did! If I were you, I would start making my peace now. I would go to London and begin to repent. Because you owe God for every life you've taken. And you truly believe this is Yemi's? You owe him one church.
I like the comments you made about Ana's insistence for an answer because it was true to her nature; this is what she was really like. Conversely, Vision-Yemi did not act at all like himself in HCoL. His exchanges with Eko were threats delivered with digust.
Quote:
Eko awakens to Yemi's voice. Yemi lights a flame with a lighter.
YEMI: It is time to confess. To be judged, Brother. I will be waiting. You know where to find me.
Shot of Sayid, Charlie and Hurley walking away from Eko's tent.
HURLEY: You guys smell smoke?
They turn and see Eko's tent in flames and then run toward it.
Another point of distinction in the dreams vs. visions discussion is physical manifestation or lack thereof. In Claire's dream about her abduction she believes that she received a needle in the stomach, but Jack doesn't see any puncture wound. In Eko's vision, Yemi lights Eko's tent on fire. The fire was real and witnessed and extinguished by Hurley and Charlie. I think that's another major point of difference.

Last edited by Bob Sacamano; 12-14-06 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 12-15-06, 02:46 AM   #23
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

All good points Bob, but I do want to point out that if Eko was thinking back to that real life conversation as to why he was building the church now on the island. Why would he have said he thought he was told to in a dream?
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Old 12-15-06, 03:11 AM   #24
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

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Originally Posted by jaystao View Post
The most famous scene to mind in regards to this idea of 'transference' used in the dream sequences is when Jack is talking to Kate behind the glass wall, and we clearly see their images, their perspectives, their personalities almost - merging with one another in the glass reflection. I am you, and you are me (an exhibit in the local technology museum distorts light on two oppsing glass surfaces to create a merging of opposing persons). You all every body!
This reminds me of the aboriginal dream thread, the idea of sharing dreams to communicate (sharing craniums) pass information. And time is not linear.
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Old 12-15-06, 03:25 AM   #25
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

ah the aboriginal dream thread. Unfortunately these days it comes in a can.
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Old 12-15-06, 04:48 AM   #26
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

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Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
Hurley's dream with English Jin and the guy in the chicken suit was just off the wall.
---
The way I am distinguishing the dreams from the visions is not scientific, but logical all the same.
---
Eko's dream of dead Ana is eerily similiar to the bloody Boone dream that Locke had in DeM. Both dreams not only alluded to their deaths but also captured how Ana and Boone would die. So I think once again their dreams are glimpses of the future, while the visions are images conjured from the past.
---
For what it's worth, Bob, Hurley's dream fits both patterns. Without checking the timeline, I'd argue that Walt was abducted at about the time his picture appeared on the milk carton. Jin's remark, "Everything is going to change," not only echoes Jin & Sun's flashback conversation -- "a baby would change everything" -- but also presages Sun's pregnancy (along the same past/future character axis, at any rate).

Not for nothing that John & Eko's dreams of Boone & Ana's deaths also included elements from their pasts. Ana was shot in the belly, and shot her attacker there as well; Boone's nanny died by falling, as did he. Odd. That's all I've got now, but I also like the idea of the separation.

That would put Island Christian, Monster-eaten Shannon, Kate's Horse, Wet Walt, and Sweatlodge Boone on one side; Ethan's Attack, Aaron & the Assumption, Dead Ana, Swan Yemi and Cliff Yemi, Mr. Jin Cluck, Boone & the Beechcraft, and perhaps others squarely on another. I ought to start a spreadsheet, right?

Where do you suppose Sawyer/Wayne should go?

Are there any qualitative differences between these apparitions? Is there a consistent light/dark theme here?
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Old 12-15-06, 02:14 PM   #27
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

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Originally Posted by Son of Locke View Post
For what it's worth, Bob, Hurley's dream fits both patterns. Without checking the timeline, I'd argue that Walt was abducted at about the time his picture appeared on the milk carton. Jin's remark, "Everything is going to change," not only echoes Jin & Sun's flashback conversation -- "a baby would change everything" -- but also presages Sun's pregnancy (along the same past/future character axis, at any rate).
Excellent point SoL - I forgot how overlapped those early S2 episodes were. I didn't even consider Jin's role in Hurley's dream - and remember we found out this season that Jin understands english a lot better than we thought. All glimpses of the future.

Quote:
Not for nothing that John & Eko's dreams of Boone & Ana's deaths also included elements from their pasts. Ana was shot in the belly, and shot her attacker there as well; Boone's nanny died by falling, as did he. Odd.
That seems like an obvious pattern, but I never realized it before. Very cool. And they both had those deaths on their conscience.

Quote:
That would put Island Christian, Monster-eaten Shannon, Kate's Horse, Wet Walt, and Sweatlodge Boone on one side; Ethan's Attack, Aaron & the Assumption, Dead Ana, Swan Yemi and Cliff Yemi, Mr. Jin Cluck, Boone & the Beechcraft, and perhaps others squarely on another. I ought to start a spreadsheet, right

Where do you suppose Sawyer/Wayne should go?

Are there any qualitative differences between these apparitions? Is there a consistent light/dark theme here
We're on the same page - I am going to post caps of all the visions and dreams starting today with notes and details on each one. Please comment and let me know what you think.
Quote:
All good points Bob, but I do want to point out that if Eko was thinking back to that real life conversation as to why he was building the church now on the island. Why would he have said he thought he was told to in a dream?
Hey rk, Eko wasn't exactly sure - I think it was in a dream. There may not be as much significance to his line other than to set up Ana's response.
Quote:
This reminds me of the aboriginal dream thread, the idea of sharing dreams to communicate (sharing craniums) pass information. And time is not linear.
I know that's one of your favorites, shbl, but I'm more interested in debunking the old idea about havids and discussing how the 815's dreams have always been glimpses of the future. I think the differences between dreams and visions on the show are directly related to the meta-conflict that hasn't yet been revealed.
Quote:
ah the aboriginal dream thread. Unfortunately these days it comes in a can.
Well, to be fair jays, this thread is probably too closely related to the show for you. I had a more obtuse version that clumsily wove together the themes of upper Palaeolithic cave paintings, the evil mesopotamian god Pazuzu, cyberpunk and the comedy stylings of Carrot Top, but it made me look too damn intelligent so I'm keeping that one to myself.

Last edited by Bob Sacamano; 12-15-06 at 03:48 PM. Reason: shoutout to shbl
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Old 12-15-06, 08:34 PM   #28
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

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Well, to be fair jays, this thread is probably too closely related to the show for you. I had a more obtuse version that clumsily wove together the themes of upper Palaeolithic cave paintings, the evil mesopotamian god Pazuzu, cyberpunk and the comedy stylings of Carrot Top, but it made me look too damn intelligent so I'm keeping that one to myself.
Actually I was refering to the current intoxicated state of many aboriginal people of Austrailia. Statistically in many parts they are drinking themselves to death. Funny old dream time isn't it?
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Old 12-15-06, 09:03 PM   #29
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

I can't read "Pazuzu" with a straight face after a college roommate convinced me to rent Exorcist II because it was such a great horror movie. Worthless piece of crap.

I realize the Mesopatamian demon comes up in the superior Ex.I and is a real character from mythology, but I still can't get over how awful that film was.
(I actually liked Ex.III, which never mentions Paz.)
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Old 12-15-06, 09:20 PM   #30
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

Thats what happens when mystery/horror tries to explain itself. Same went for the Japanese version of the ring 2. It just makes the premise seem silly (best to stick with the initial version).

On the topic of dreams as manifestation of desires I think fears also play as much into this role. The 'monster' could be as much bogie man as fairy queen. My own trepedations into personal fear has much to do with a mouse running around my house at present. You can hear it scrabling around in the walls at night and in some instances manifests in my waking dreams as what ever type of fear or feeling this induces. I wonder how much of the dream appearences are 'the island' and how much of it is created by our Castaways ID.
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