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LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

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Old 12-17-07, 07:11 PM   #11
Bob Sacamano
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_eris View Post
Kinda ties into your observations that apparitions tend to bode poorly, but visions tend to bode well, doesn't it?
Their Dreams Come True is a perfect compliment to this thread, and those ideas are not at all in conflict with this attempt at a blanket theory. This theory attempts to provide an answer behind the mystery and strangeness of the Island which manifests itself in Dreams, Visions, and Trips. I didn't want to leverage those ideas here, even in my own thread and even if they were in support of this new theory.

Here's an interesting footnote. There was a filmed, but edited final scene in Kubrik's film. I think the deletion of the scene was smart, because it fueled the ambiguous nature of Kubrik's adaptation. Was the Overlook haunted, or was this family just unraveling from isolation, unable to overcome its own violent history? Ghosts or madness? To an outside observer, which is what the audience is, someone with special abilities would be seem as just plain crazy. Lost plays with these same themes - the characters are constantly questioning their own sanity.

Here are the end scenes that we are left with in Kubrik's final cut:


1. Jack Torrance frozen to death in the hedge maze.

And,


2. Jack Torrance absorbed into the past in this hotel photo from July 4, 1921.

These scenes were cut before the film was released - they show Wendy and Danny at the Hospital recovering from the tragedy. The Overlook's manager visits them in the hospital and tells Wendy that Jack's body "was never found" (cue scary organ riff).

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Old 12-17-07, 07:12 PM   #12
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

One element that is played heavily in the book (and completely ignored in the movie) is how Jack's father was an abusive, alcoholic wife beater.

Jack's (Torrence) father would rank right up there with all the other Prince Charmings that the Losties can claim as their fathers.
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Old 12-17-07, 07:48 PM   #13
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Quote:
Jack: Here's to five miserable months on the wagon and all the irreparable harm that it's caused me.
Jack's alcoholism was actually quite prominent in the film and close to what was in the book (frow what I remember). We learn that Jack dislocated Danny's shoulder three years ago when he came home in a drunken rage, and the family never got over that nightmare. It's also when Danny started to "shine."

Quote:
WENDY: He didn't like it too much at first, and then he had an injury, so we kept him out for a while, and, yeah, I...I guess that's about the time when I first noticed that he was talking to Tony. Anyway, something good did come out of it all because he said:"Wendy, I'm never gonna touch another drop and if I do you can leave me", and he didn't and he hasn't had any alcohol in five months.
So it's no surprise that Jack befriends Lloyd, the bartender. After all, the drinks were "on the house."


Quote:
Jack: God, I'd give anything for a drink. I'd give my god-damned soul for just a glass of beer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalvinHobbesLocke View Post
Jack's (Torrence) father would rank right up there with all the other Prince Charmings that the Losties can claim as their fathers.
No doubt - he makes Christian Shephard look like a soccer dad.
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Old 12-17-07, 10:39 PM   #14
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Good grief, Bob. There was I, happy to arse around and let the sub-forum descend into mild abandon during the hiatus, and you go and post this gem-in-the-making.

The Shining is naturally one of my all time favs. I'm going to enjoy reading how you've paralleled it with Lost. I'm horribly short of time lately due to work commitments but will pop the cork on a good red later this week and have a read.

Ok, yes, and I'm also interested to understand how this dovetails with your Dreams/Visions thread. You've indicated it sets the basis for the strangeness that gives rise to the Dreams/Visions - so this thread is either a very subtle yung-ism or you've truly found a clever way to link two of your own theories (just kidding, yung ).
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Old 12-18-07, 03:38 PM   #15
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Bob,
I think these parallels are interesting, but I have to see them as precisely that: parallels and not intersections. I think the Shining and Lost are mining closely related cultural ideas, but I'm not at all persuaded that the Shining is specifically a direct influence. It's certainly part of the vast cultural milieu behind Lost. But since we already know about the special relationship between TPTB and Stephen King, this goes without saying.

Regardless, as you do discuss this idea, there's one factual issue I wanted to point out:
-- Stephen King wrote the novel. Kubrick adapted it to create the hit film. But many fans and especially critics deplored the film for making too many changes to King's story. King himself had reservations about the liberties taken. He later scripted a made-for-TV movie that was much more faithful to his book (eg. hedge maze is full of topiary animals that come to life). To this version, King appended an ending in which it was made clear that Danny was communicating with his future self. That element is not made clear in the novel and in some ways is inconsistent with the entire concept of "the shining," as picking up messages from elsewhere and not just from yourself. The TV version had issues of its own. The crucial casting of Danny Torrence was botched, among other things. Anyway, my main point is that the "future Danny" stuff is not from the book, but added for the TV version.
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Old 12-18-07, 03:44 PM   #16
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Quote:
Originally Posted by island_maverick View Post
You've indicated it sets the basis for the strangeness that gives rise to the Dreams/Visions.
Thanks Mav - I think this much is certain - the Dreams/Visions are a symptom of the Island's sickness. I didn't want to bog this theory down with my other thread, but Dreams fits perfectly inside this ghost story framework. All of the supernatural conventions we have seen - every one - is represented by a phenomena from The Shining. But even more than that;

- History of violence shared by The Overlook and The Island
- Locations depicted as characters with Wills, Motives, and Agendas
- Paranormal similarities between Walt-Danny
- Bad Dads
- Isolationism
- Deja Vu
- The Afterlife
- The Persistance of Memory
- Destiny vs. Free Will

Most ghost story's fuel the perception that the experiencer is crazy. In every scene where Nicholson encounters a ghost, there is a mirror (jane's ears must be ringing right about now)to give the appearance that Jack is talking to himself. But towards the end of the film, there are two events that indicate to the audience that these ghosts are real, and not in Jack's head.

Lost does the same thing. At one time or another, Jack, Locke, Charlie, Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, etc. all feared they were going crazy because of what they had seen and heard on the Island. But when Sawyer saw the Horse and Sayid saw Wet Walt we have to consider that these things are real and a direct result of the environment. These phenomena have an intelligence and a purpose, and most of all a past/present/future omniscience that stems from the supernatural.
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Old 12-18-07, 04:42 PM   #17
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Fourtoes, I am glad you posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtoes View Post
I think the Shining and Lost are mining closely related cultural ideas.
Exactly - that's the point, they are both ghost stories.
Quote:
I'm not at all persuaded that the Shining is specifically a direct influence.
You must have missed something in the first post. I don't think The Shining or any other other work, or collection of works, is a direct influence on Lost - I said that upfront. I am saying that Lost is a ghost story, and used The Shining to illuminate those ideas. The similarities are not coincidental, they are specifically paranormal, and these clues give us a peak at the mystery behind the Island. I've read King's book and I'm aware of all the differences and criticisms regarding Kubrik's adaptation but none of that is germane to the theory. This theory is not about The Shining or any of its iterations; it was just a good way to discuss the ghost story framework.
Quote:
Anyway, my main point is that the "future Danny" stuff is not from the book, but added for the TV version.
Not true - you may want to go back and check the book. It is made explicit in the novel that Tony is a future version of Danny - and that the shining is the special ability to see both past and future. But my intent is not to debate the differences between King's novel and Kurbrik's film - as much fun as that would be.

I am driving at what kind of story Lost is and trying to theorize a sustainable narrative history for the Island. Something really bad happened to the Natives and that cycle of violence is still looping. Like jane said, now we have to see if history will finally stop repeating itself.
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Old 12-18-07, 06:58 PM   #18
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtoes View Post
To this version, King appended an ending in which it was made clear that Danny was communicating with his future self. That element is not made clear in the novel .... Anyway, my main point is that the "future Danny" stuff is not from the book, but added for the TV version.
Au contraire, Fourtoes, it is made quite clear in the book that "Tony" is Danny's future self. The first clue is "Tony's" name itself...Danny's middle name is Anthony. And then the final scene with Tony, just before Danny faces his father for the last time, Danny is finally able to see "Tony" close up (as opposed to off in the far distance in his previous visions), I forget the exact wording (I am at work and am going by memory here) but it is clear that the "Tony" Danny is seeing is his future self.
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Old 12-18-07, 07:41 PM   #19
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Wow. OK, I missed it in the book. Which I now like less.

I still think SK is an author who has never figured out how to write endings.

But that's neither here nor there with regard to this thread.

Bob, I see your point. The Shining is a good point of reference that's familiar to many people and a prime example of the material TPTB and SK are both using.
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Old 12-19-07, 02:31 PM   #20
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Re: + Ghost Story: Lost & The Shining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourtoes View Post
Wow. OK, I missed it in the book. Which I now like less.
One thing we can all agree on: the miniseries stunk.

I'm going to rejigger the thread title just to keep the focus on Lost. The paranormal aspects of the film were not even what led me to post. It's those two lines spoken by the hotel manager about the Indian burial ground. Maybe it would help to look at all of the structures on the Island that don't appear to be a part of the Dharma/Others footprint. This is the only physical evidence we have been given about the Island's ancient history.

Native Structures

The Window Rock


The Statue


The Ruins


The Temple - unseen
Possible name of another Dharma station, or
AKA "The Old Place" where Ben was leading the Others.

An interesting selection of clues. You do start to get a sense of how the natives lived on the Island. I also like what these structures say about the Science vs. Faith undercurrent. Locke has been chosen to infiltrate the Others and destroy as much science on the Island as he can. But these ancient relics still stand - even if just on one foot.

The capper - if it's not another station - will be The Temple.
With all of the focus we put on how religious themes are used throughout the show, here is an opportunity to see how religion/worship/spirituality influenced the Island. To get even a small glimpse at that will be very revealing.
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