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Old 03-07-09, 09:43 AM   #31
Peggy Sawyer
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

Questionable competitive-advantage tactics go way back (read Al Davis' seventies Raiders, Jimmy Johnson's Dolphins, etc), which is why I think BB construed it as old-school "gamesmanship" rather than cheating. Mangini himself had cameras in areas of Gillette without permission, the story goes, and there's been heat issues in the RCA Dome in Indianapolis when the Pats have played there. At any rate, only in this ESPN era could Spygate have become the scandal it became...incredibly overblown.
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Old 03-07-09, 12:38 PM   #32
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentstuntdbl#23 View Post
Actually from what I've found is this:
That's a far cry from what the pats were doing.
If I was commish.
I would've made 'em forfeit any game there was evidence of taping & banned belicheat.
It was simply the most overblown case of "holier than thou" types finding a chink in bill's armor and trying to take him down. Did you notice any other coach, besides fat wussy Mangini, complaining about it? No, because they know it's just not that big of a deal. You realize it's not against the rules to tape opposing coaches? They just did it from non-designated area. I admit, when such football scholars as Joey Porter come out and biotch, blaming their own inadequacies on this, it makes me wonder.
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Old 03-07-09, 03:50 PM   #33
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

Quote:
Originally Posted by soup View Post
Why the eye roll?
*shrugs*

Just pure disdain for Bellicheat and the Pats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soup View Post
We agree, then, to the T.O. point, and the Pats machine greatness. Good. I'm satisfied.
Perfectly agreed.

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If you're not cheating, you're not trying and if you're getting caught, you're not trying hard enough.
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

Isn't that an old NASCAR saying?
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Old 03-07-09, 03:54 PM   #34
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

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Originally Posted by Tater View Post
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.

Isn't that an old NASCAR saying?
I can't remember where I heard it first; in NASCAR circles or in the Army. Probably NASCAR though.

Everyone thinks their driver would never cheat. Uh huh. They interviewed the director of competition who keeps confiscated parts in NASCAR's warehouse. Everyone, and I mean every team, has a part in that warehouse that's been confiscated by NASCAR. Then again, that's a discussion for a whole other thread.
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Old 03-07-09, 04:46 PM   #35
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

Listen, there is a greater discussion here about "cheating." I for one don't have a major problem with the steroids issue as far as stats and records are concerned. Hitters AND pitchers were doing them. Before steroids, they were doing amphetamines like M & M's(and during). Gaylord Perry is in the H o F (right?) and he is celebrated for the spitter. Nolan Ryan was scuffing balls at the end of his career. Why are these things any different? They all provide a benefit. We are very selective as a society in casting disdain toward athletes for their selection of method. Do I hate that guys did steroids and broke record? Yeah, but, to quote Daniel Farraday, "what happens, happened." Move on, don't dwell, and choose to celebrate careers of guys who seemed to do it right, like Aaron, Gibson (another one, celbrated for headhunting), and Jeter. Ignore the Bonds' and the McGwires, if you choose.
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Old 03-07-09, 10:08 PM   #36
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

Quote:
Originally Posted by soup
Listen, there is a greater discussion here about "cheating." I for one don't have a major problem with the steroids issue as far as stats and records are concerned. Hitters AND pitchers were doing them. Before steroids, they were doing amphetamines like M & M's(and during). Gaylord Perry is in the H o F (right?) and he is celebrated for the spitter. Nolan Ryan was scuffing balls at the end of his career. Why are these things any different? They all provide a benefit. We are very selective as a society in casting disdain toward athletes for their selection of method. Do I hate that guys did steroids and broke record? Yeah, but, to quote Daniel Farraday, "what happens, happened." Move on, don't dwell, and choose to celebrate careers of guys who seemed to do it right, like Aaron, Gibson (another one, celbrated for headhunting), and Jeter. Ignore the Bonds' and the McGwires, if you choose.
It's a matter of degrees, soup, and the records. While nobody is doubting that McGwire, Sosa and Bonds would all have fine careers without the 'roids because those can not help you develop the timing and hand-eye coordination required of a successful hitter, the issue which has drawn the most outrage, at least so far as cheating is concerned (for purposes of this discussion we're gonna completely ignore the bit about it sending a message to high school atheletes that if you want a chance at success in pro sports you have to shoot a substance into your ass that is gonna destroy your body before you are 40, and oh yeah, all of your peers are going to be doing it too so good luck sucker!) is that the records of Maris and Aaron would still be standing.

Ryan scuffing balls and Perry throwing a spitter. Lets put those in two different categories. Perry was never caught throwing a spitter. He was, however, ejected on reputation because the plate umpire said that the pitch had an "un-natural motion". And this was while Perry was with the Mariners, after he had recorded his 300th victory. Think of this sort of like Colonel Klink and Colonel Hogan. Or better yet, the Gestapo Major who was always nosing around, whatever his name was, instead of Klink. The umpires had that attitude towards Perry, they knew he was up to something and whether they could prove it or not they were gonna get him, and they did. 300 wins, 3000 Ks and now we have him in the books as being ejected for throwing a spitter, never mind the fact that the umpire never actually found any foreign substance on the baseball or doctoring thereof, or bothered to check the ball at all before ejecting Perry. Perry was ejected a half a second after the pitch landed in the catcher's mitt. The argument could be made that the umpire was unilaterally attempting to taint Perry's career and that MLB and the AL Umpires backed him because Perry had a reputation of throwing a spitter.

Ryan, on the other hand, records already in the books, extending his HoF career, no doubt the umps were aware that he was scuffing balls, chose to allow him get away with it, just like the "Greg Maddux Strike Zone". Clear double standard.

And I wouldn't call Bob Gibson a headhunter. Now days we have guys who wear so much body armor they look like Russel Crowe in Gladiator when they step up to the plate...or maybe one of the extras from Road Warrior...and they lean out right over the plate to take away the outside corner from a pitcher. If the pitcher throws inside they just take it and if they can't get out of the way they won't get a wittow owie. There were a lot of pitchers who threw up and in to chase batters off the plate, it's been a standard practice in baseball for years. Gibson got a bad rap, IMO, for being A) a Cardinal, which meant automatic villification in the eastern, western and especially Chicago media, and B) black, for, despite over a decade since Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, black players were still under harsher scrutiny.
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Old 03-07-09, 11:02 PM   #37
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

It shouldn't matter if the act helped break a record or got one guy out in a WS game because the pitcher had sandpaper in his glove, scraped the ball, and gave it an unnatural movement.

The argument that Ryan (who I idolized) was any different than Bonds is incorrect. We don't like Bonds because he did steroids and broke Aaron's record (AND HE'S A <SNIP>). Didn't Nolan break records late in his career? After Mile Scott showed him some stuff, he even seemed to get a second wind. Where would Nolan have been without the scuffing? You don't know. That's the point. Would Bonds have broken Aaron's record, or McGwire/Maris? Probably not, but he would have been a H oF'er. Ryan got in the H oF, but because he didn't break a "hallowed" record, there was never any question into whether he would get in. Before Bonds did 'roids, he was a 1st ballot guy. Now writers want to keep him out. It's hypocrisy.

I love Ryan and can't stand Bonds. I just hate double standards and "degrees." The degrees of cheating aren't listed anywhere. And Perry may have never truly been caught, but technically, neither has Arod, not officially. The leak forced his admission (a lame one at that).

I'm not trying to equate Ryan or Perry to Bonds or Arod, but it's semantics. What if Ricky henderson was doing amphetamines while he was stealing all those bases? Not against MLB rules, but illegal nonetheless. Would we decry his career?

One last thing about 'roids. Why didn't Marvin Benard or Manny Alexander have better careers, they were on the 'roids? It enhanced those other guys, and made them more money, but it didn't make them H o F guys. The ones who did it short term (Brady Anderson) will never get a sniff. And some others (Pudge? Bagwell?, Nomar?) we'll see how their health holds up.
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Last edited by soup; 03-07-09 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 03-07-09, 11:03 PM   #38
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

T.O. just signed with the Bills!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

My roommate (Bills fan) is not a happy camper right now.
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Old 03-07-09, 11:06 PM   #39
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

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T.O. just signed with the Bills!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

My roommate (Bills fan) is not a happy camper right now.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We get him twice a year. YES!!!!!!!

I can see it now. T.O. runs after J.P. Losman, demanding the ball.

He won't last 6 games.
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Old 03-08-09, 01:42 AM   #40
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Re: The NFL Thread Pt. II

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, soup. We don't know that Gaylord Perry was actually doctoring the ball in any way. He has never confirmed nor denied it. The ejection makes it "official" that he was, but it was a ejection. The "unnatural motion" which the umpire described...that's a pretty vague reason for ejecting someone...that would be about like me giving a long-time poster a week's ban because I think he might be thinking about flaming someone.

He sometimes joked about it, but the jokes would seem to indicate that he was playing a psychological game with the hitters, making them believe he was throwing a spitter.
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