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Old 09-10-17, 11:22 AM   #811
Mr Mo
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

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Originally Posted by vonnegut View Post
And yes, I still am not okay with Daniel being the Dreamlord.
Still.
I'm totally okay with that. I'll have even more on the subject later.

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Originally Posted by vonnegut View Post
F*** Desire.

Seriously.
Desire is such a double-edged sword, to stretch a metaphor. Its androgyny can be taken in so many ways. Life would seem so much more pointless without Desire, and humankind in particular would probably be worse off than plankton without Her/Him, but S/He has so many negative aspects as well. He/She is perhaps the most complex of the Endless. While i frequently despised the character of Desire in Sandman, we wouldn't have had much of a story without Him/Her, and Morpheus himself would've been a bland unrelatable alien without Her/His influence.

Not to mention <spoiler removed>,

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But, appropriate that Destruction is here. Who else could embody change?
Dream embodies change in a lot of ways. Perhaps not on such scales as Destruction, but Dream isn't known as The Shaper for no reason. I'd go so far as to say that Dream is the primary force for creation in the multiverse of Sandman. He shapes and guides the dreams and nightmares which inspire so many mortals. Iirc Mad Hettie at least once refers to him as "Oneiromancer," which would suggest that he has wizardly powers over gods themselves. Idk if we can take her word for it, but it's certainly suggestive.

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I had to google Wesley Dodds back when I read this, he is apparently the original Sandman superhero from old comics, before Gaiman got a hold of the concept. Nice little nod.
Wesley Dodds was a mortal human who called himself The Sandman. I don't remember for sure without looking back, but i believe he may have had Dream's pouch of sand for a while during the imprisonment.

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Well, Daniel hasn't had time to get tired of anything yet.
The Endless exist, at least to some extent, outside of linear time. Also, Morpeus imparted some of Himself into Daniel.

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To echo myself, and Mo, and Pi-o-my, this was exactly the right thing. I'm going to be pointing people to this thread in the future.

YES. And that's why I liked you doing it the way you did-- even if you'd made a guess, and then next page it was shown outright (either confirmed or contradicted), it made the experience better, and *I* enjoyed reading it more this way.
I completely agree with every little bit of this. This thread has expanded my horizons on the concept of a first-read thread as well as expanding my understanding of my own personal favorite piece of (mixed media) literature. It's been humbling in th best possible way.

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I think that by the time he was working on Volume 2, he had an ending in mind. I think, like Morpheus, it was the introduction of the baby that made him know where this was going. But I think he improvised a lot on the path there, and was just really good at pulling up loose threads that he'd scattered years back.
Mo mentioned that the series went like 20-25 volumes more than originally projected, but I think a lot of that is just that Gaiman couldn't help but wander down side-tracks, with the one-off stories. I forgive him that, because while some of the one-off stories I didn't particularly care for, some were very good, and most ended up enriching the plot.
Personally i think the had the ending in mind all along, as well as a basic idea of how to get there, but certainly he enriched the tale(s) as it was writtem.

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You're welcome.
Indeed. And i feel privileged to have been a part.

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I've heard more than one writer talk about how the story is actually something created WITH the reader, because the writer never knows where the reader will take it and what it means to THEM personally, and that interaction actually changes the story itself. Stories as fluid, mutable things, in which the observation affects the reality, quantum-physics-style. It's an idea I've always fancied, but in Sandman it is particularly pronounced, and I don't think that's an accident.
Totally. It's immersive fiction at its very best. WartyOne used the exact term i've been using for decades now.. it's transcendent.


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I actually had this exact thought when pulling panels to put in my posts. This story would NOT work as straight prose. So much is seeing.
There has, of course, been idle talk about a movie or TV show, but I don't know if even that could catch the RIGHTness of the medium for this story. It would have be really, really, really done well.
Many of the big splashy successful graphic novels have been turned into movies and TV shows, even when not talking about classic-type Superhero genre. It's been done well: Watchmen (while it uses superhero-type characters, is not a superhero story imo), 300, and V for Vendetta are all great examples of Hollywood getting it right. Sin City, Preacher, TWD, and the 300 sequel are all examples of Hollywood doing well by the originals but just not quite hitting the mark dead center; that was acceptable for those works but would be an unqualified disaster with Sandman. The Constantine/Hellblazer films are examples of Hollywood missing by a bit more. All that is of course imo, ymmv.

Sandman, though is a different type of beast entirely. It seems far too large to fit as a single film, and a film trilogy would present logistical nightmares reminiscent of an enraged Morpheus's harshest punishments. That leaves the option of a limited series/miniseries. The costs could potentially be defrayed without losing any of the majesty of the story, but only by a dedicated and fluent team of production staff, directors, writers, hair/makeup/wardrobe, and set designers all working together and all "on the same page," which is extremely difficult even under the best circumstances. Even if such a "perfect storm" of showrunners and creative executives being taken as a given, there would still be extremely demanding and critically important hurdles to be handled. As Merv noted, "Mohammed ain't comin' to the mountain." The CGI budget would need to be nearly astronomical, and effective casting would be time-consuming, difficult, and likely extremely expensive. Things that, as far as i know, have never really had to be considered in such a translation would require serious creative genius, such as how the varying fonts and colors in the word balloons alone, used with such effectiveness in the graphic novel format could possibly be brought across into such a different medium.

I'd like to see somebody try to bring Maus across the divide first, and Cerberus could be fun too, but i can't personally think of anything that would be as challenging as Sandman.

With all that said, i'm sure that it's something i'd pay up big to go see in IMAX if given the opportunity, even if i was sure i would hate it, just because i'd admire the chutzpah required for anybody to even try it.


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Originally Posted by vonnegut View Post
THIS is such a very, very rare thing.
Stephen King does it a lot, and Vonnegut does it occasion, but most people that do it can't pull it off (take away suspense and still have the plot be gripping and compelling). What pops to mind in particular is King's "Eyes of the Dragon."
You have to be DAMN good, to do this and still be effective.

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Again... Schroedinger's story, lol.
When we touch it, we change it. None of us ever read the same story.
I iike that analogy, vonne.

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Originally Posted by vonnegut View Post
But that's what makes THIS thread so fun. It was a very thorough examination of YOUR Sandman. The closest I've gotten to knowing someone else's Sandman, truly.
Same here and well said.

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Originally Posted by vonnegut View Post
LOL but seriously, I knew getting you to read this would be awesome.
But I definitely underestimated the potential awesomeness.
As i said earlier, i expected this to be phenomenal, but i think it's quite possibly become my favorite thread ever. More on that later.

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Originally Posted by Warthawg1 View Post
Sunday Mourning

This seemed to be about moving on after death. Death at one point shows up to find out if Hob is ready to go.. it's sort of a get busy living or start dying thing.
I think i understand your perspective there. It wasn't exactly what i got out of it, but that's part of what makes the series so interesting. I thought that Death wanted to set Hob's mind at ease. Hob's "deal" was with Morpheus, after all, so i thought that he might've felt a little uncertain about what his options were, not to mention a certain amount of ambivalence towards whatever options remained to him. Fortunately Death seemed to give him just the firm little kick in the ass that he needed.

Aside from the overtly obvious 90's style irony of Hob attending a RenFest on a "date" (NG slipping a pun in there too, *groan*), it's a very fitting scene for Hob himself to wax melancholic. I like Hob overall, though his morals at time have given me pause, and i like the motivation he finds for himself: curiosity. It's more 90's style irony, because we all know the old saw about curiosity and cats, while Hob is apparently immune to the moral of that saw, at least for so long as he wishes; irc Death does say that She'll see him around.

I also enjoyed Hob's relatively brief commentary on RenFests in general, as i loved them as a child but became quite jaded towards them as i learned some history. My favorite bit was when he remarked something along the lines of everybody should be hosed down with shit upon entering and about 4 billion flies needed to be imported, just to add a little authenticity. I also loved the, "frozen beerish swill" line. Anybody's who's ever actually gotten drunk on warm honey mead wlll have little difficulty understanding with Vikings had such a reputation for being cantankerous and miserable.

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Originally Posted by Warthawg1 View Post
Death sees the people, the history isn't important. For her it's just folks enjoying themselves that matters. When the end is always the same, she realizes the value of just enjoying whatever lifetime you get.
Her wisdom is so pithy, so simple, and so honest. It reminds very much of the ending of Monty Python's The Meaning of Life, one of my favorite films and easily my favorite Python film.

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Well a huge portion of the story was told from the male perspective. Even when the female POV came into play, it seemed more of just an acknowledgement that it was out there without a full grasp of what it was.
Well said, and vonne's expansion on the concept was great, i think you'll really enjoy it when she brings it over here and/or you read it in the GD thread.

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Originally Posted by Warthawg1 View Post
Different facets were shown of so many characters, but there was something really different here. We had to see these facets through other characters. Morpheus himself kept us closed off from many of them.
Morpeus himself had limited perspectives, as do we all. His limitations were unique, and i really think that that's a huge part of what makes him such a compelling character.

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Originally Posted by Pi-o-my View Post
So much good conversation about the last two books, thereís not much for me to add. Thank you, Warty, for letting us peek into your journey. Putting your personal Sandman story down into prose, especially in something beyond a private journal, is a valued accomplishment.
Indeed. I think this thread found its own form of transcendence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi-o-my View Post
And Mo, I like what you said about Daniel having memories that werenít strictly his own. Thatís part of the mythology Gaiman and McKean were creating for Black Orchid, just before Gaiman got sidetracked into beginning his writing on Sandman. And I think Morpheus being conscientious about putting Daniel properly in place is an important part of the distinctions between Morpheus leaving his post and Destruction (who wants to create but isnít very good at it) leaving his, and Lucifer (who locked up the joint and basically tossed away the key) abandoning hell.
I've heard a bit about Black Orchid but our paths haven't yet crossed. Perhaps i'll ask about it and my local game/comic/hobby shop and/or poke around Amazon. Thanks for the tip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warthawg1
Plus he doesn't take it out on Guenevere.. that's good.
Hob has made mistakes, and done things of which he isn't proud. Yet he is still willing to learn and better himself. I wouldn't call him an avatar nor an archetype; in a way he's something better than that, he's just a reasonably decent human being who doesn't ever really want to give up.

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I am happy with the thread being a memory for all involved.
It will certainly be at least that for me. I already look forward to re-reading it lol

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Originally Posted by Warthawg1 View Post
Yeah... I feel sadly for anyone who doesn't give it a chance for whatever reason. I really, really, really did NOT want to give it a chance... but then

Barnes and Noble entered the story and it became a vision quest.
It is so gratifying to know that this story enriched your life. Your disciplined and unselfish manner of sharing your jounrey certainly enriched mine.

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I am sure curiosity would best me.
I know my curiosity would get the best of me. I'm also fairly certain that i'd have low expectations, so that might help.

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I never felt spoiled in the least.
Are you speaking specifically to vonne's sigs, or did we all manage to keep you unspoiled throughout the thread?

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In a way it became so personal that I didn't want to share it.. but I look at the company I shared it with and I am okay with the opening up I did. I let you all have a peek into the dark abyss known as my heart.
I'm touched. Thank you.

____

*whew* I apologize for the length here. More to come of course...
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I've always appreciated your restraint, Mo
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Mo, I you
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Old 09-10-17, 11:37 PM   #812
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

I was pretty much unspoiled by everyone.. or non-spoiled.. or no
one really spoiled me... something like that.

There are and were no comments made that were not completely appreciated.


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Old 09-13-17, 07:53 PM   #813
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

The Tempest

I am so overwhelmed by the wake that resides within The Wake. After writing my own epilogue earlier, I am now ready to move on with living and have Dream of the Endless be just a memory. A memory that touched and moved me, but he needs to be a memory nonetheless. No more hanging on to The Dream. Had this not been the final chapter of The Wake, I don't know what I would have done.

Do not be mistaken; it is not that I am tired of Morpheus, Death or Gaiman... I am just tired of mourning and the lessons about the necessity of moving on.

"Because I will never leave my island" is the most poetic line of this final story. It sort of encompasses all.

The parallels of The Tempest and the story of Morpheus are obvious, and I think the artwork draws even more parallels (see what I did there?).

I will only speak briefly of these parallels as my time as a narrator of the story has passed. I could write endlessly of the wonder of how Shakespeake was just some mook, inspired by something outside of himself..the power and inspirations of dreams... but I
have already said these things many, many times.

On briefly..

To me, Prospero is both Morpheus and Gaiman. Morpheus and Gaiman both
created a tempest that drew us into their islands. Gaiman's island was this series, and within it Morpheus had his own known as The Dreaming.

As with Prospero, there was a promise to entertain the audience by telling us the story of Morpheus and the life on that island.

In the end there was a breaking of the staff and a walking away from this magic, as
our leading character chose to leave The Dreaming behind.

Finally, Neil Gaiman looked out at his audience and said that only with our applause will
Morpheus be able to leave his island, and so I gladly give it.

It's all I really have left to give.
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Old 09-14-17, 12:02 PM   #814
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

I would suggest that you make Overture the last thing you read in this universe. It's a very good stopping point.

So, Endless Nights or anything else you want to do, do those before Overture.
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Old 09-14-17, 01:24 PM   #815
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

My plan was the rest of Sandman proper, Death, then Overture last.
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Old 09-14-17, 03:02 PM   #816
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

Dream Hunters really takes place completely outside the rest of the narratives so it doesn't really matter when you read it. I think you'll enjoy it, but then i thought you'd enjoy World's End too (which maybe you did, by the end of it).

Anyway, that sounds like a solid plan. Overture last is definitely a good idea imo.
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Old 09-15-17, 01:32 AM   #817
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

I enjoyed all of it. There are just different degrees of joy.


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Old 09-15-17, 05:47 AM   #818
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

I think i'll choose to take that as a compliment, for the nonce at least. So thank you.
I don't recommend any Sandman material not written by NG directly.
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Spoiler: notes
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Old 09-15-17, 11:23 AM   #819
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

I don't think I would be interested in it if not written by NG, unless specifically recommended.


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Old 09-15-17, 11:33 AM   #820
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Re: Warty's Sandman FR - The Wake

I love your new sig, btw.
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