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LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

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Old 12-13-06, 01:37 AM   #11
Bob Sacamano
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Thanks a lot Mav. I used your index to do a lot of background on this - it's a great resource. Nice work!

Quote:
I do have a question though - are you ruling out the possibility that any of the havids are actually ghosts, or energised spirits in some way, which are somehow empowered to present themselves to the recipient (say, as a result of the island's properties acting as some kind of clairvoyent conduit)?.
I'm drawing a hard line between the dreams and visions but I see the visions exactly as you described; Conjured images from the 815s memories activated by Smokey. Ghosts and spirits certainly apply.

Quote:
Also, I'd like to challenge you over the Ana blood scene. For this to be a dream that presented Eko with a vision of the future, it would have had to have been something Eko experienced before Ana was shot. I would need to re-watch the concurrent episodes again, but I'm fairly sure that we were first shown Ana being shot, and then later, Eko was shown to see Ana standing there, with a gunshot wound.
I'm taking a few liberties with the timeline here, but Ana was shot in the last scene of Episode 20, and Eko's dream was the first scene of Episode 21. I think it's possible those scenes were not presented to us in a linear fashion. After Eko awoke from the dream he ran right to the hatch to find John - who was just back from the jungle with Jack, Sawyer and Kate. All of them encountered Michael who had just shot Ana and freed Ben. So we're talking about a few seconds either way. Even if I'm wrong, Ana made it into Eko's dream instantly after being shot - that alone is interesting.

The message about the button has always been cloudy - but Eko's dream succeeded in getting Locke away from the Swan which I think was always the primary goal. The button and the number protocol were a part of Locke's obsession with the hatch in general.

Quote:
Howwould the Annunciation scene fit in with this theory???
Hi artesmia14 - please elaborate.
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Old 12-13-06, 01:47 AM   #12
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

I think there are two forces involved in the dreams, visions and what-not (and I've never used the term havid because I think it does imply a unity that might not be there).

[We see Eko and Locke in the jungle. Eko is poking at the remains of the fire while Locke still sleeps.]

YEMI: Eko.
EKO [smiling]: Yemi.
YEMI [shushing him]: You'll wake John. Come, follow me.
EKO [limpingly follows]: Yemi.
[We see Yemi climbing up the cliff where the plane was perched. Eko follows.]
EKO: Yemi! Yemi.
[At the top Eko looks surprised. We see Yemi sitting in a wheelchair.]
YEMI: Wake up, John.
[We see Eko fall. Locke suddenly wakes up.]

What struck me about that Locke dream was that it was Eko's dream in the worng cranium. Plus the little mixed up details regarding the wheel chair and what-not. The island strangeness that caused it seemed to be unable to differentiate between individual humans.

I believe we saw another aspect of that when Eko, gathering itself to strike Eko at the river bank, flees when a group approaches. It only approaches him when he is alone at the Pearl enterance, and even then Yemi turns and walks into the jungle luring Eko further from the group.

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Old 12-13-06, 02:20 AM   #13
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Great thread Bob! I've always been troubled by Claire's dream sequence with one black eye and one white eye Locke.
Quote:
CLAIRE: What's happening?
LOCKE: You know what's happening.
CLAIRE: But I don't understand. Why --?
LOCKE: He was your responsibility but you gave him away, Claire. Everyone pays the price now.
"Everyone pays the price now" has always made me think that everyone else that just happened to have the misfortune of being on the same plane with pregnant Claire will now have to suffer as well.

I'll be back after I think about this for a while, but I'll leave you with this thought.

(Somewhere over the rainbow electromagnetic spectrum
Way up high
There's a land that I heard of
Once in a lullaby

Somewhere over the rainbow electromagnetic spectrum
Skies are blue
And the dreams that you dare to dream
Really do come true
)

Last edited by sandi; 12-13-06 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 12-13-06, 03:15 AM   #14
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Great post Bob Sacamano.

I do think that what produces the seemingly real visions on the island seems to be coming from the black smoke maybe. Where as the dreams are quite possibly coming from another source all together. It would be assumed each would have their own motivations in what they produce. Also if the dreams are run by technology and if their is more than one group trying to manipulate people the dreams might not all have the same goal.

Also what seems good from one view point might not be viewed as good from another view point. Classic example Locke gets a vision that Eko is held by them and is in trouble and he must clean up his mess. The question though is was Eko really in trouble was the polarbear meaning him harm or was he actually trying to protect him from both Locke and ultimately from smoky?
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Old 12-13-06, 04:01 AM   #15
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

It makes sense to conflate Eko's dream of Yemi telling him make Locke bring him to the question mark with Eko waking visions of Yemi before he is killed.

But what if this is a little sleight of hand? It seems clear that the "dream-Yemi" wanted to guide Locke to the Pearl hatch (or something else nearby) but it's not all clear what agenda "waking-Yemi" had.

"Waking-Yemi" may or not be related to the smoke monster, but we do know Eko met an unhappy end.
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Old 12-13-06, 11:05 AM   #16
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Controlled precognition would be a terrific tool for a group given over to scientific endeavors: tweak a variable now and, rather than having to wait in real time to see the consequences, you could observe the results effectively before they occur in your time line.

Of course, subtle changes would require careful observation to detect them.

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Old 12-13-06, 04:16 PM   #17
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I toyed with posting this in WIT to get a better response, but I guess I still have faith in theories.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeillT006 View Post
Controlled precognition would be a terrific tool for a group given over to scientific endeavors: tweak a variable now and, rather than having to wait in real time to see the consequences, you could observe the results effectively before they occur in your time line.

Of course, subtle changes would require careful observation to detect them.

N.
Thanks Neill. And we know from the Pearl video that
Quote:
As Karen DeGroot herself has written, "Careful observation is the only key to true and complete awareness."
Quote:
I think there are two forces involved in the dreams, visions and what-not (and I've never used the term havid because I think it does imply a unity that might not be there).
Me too Homer. Locke saw something different than Smokey and then got lost in the trappings of the Swan. I still contend that whatever it is he saw wanted to steer him away from the Swan at all costs, just like Walt warned.
Quote:
Great thread Bob! I've always been troubled by Claire's dream sequence with one black eye and one white eye Locke. "Everyone pays the price now" has always made me think that everyone else that just happened to have the misfortune of being on the same plane with pregnant Claire will now have to suffer as well.
Thanks CS. Locke's warning to Claire in that dream would have come to pass if Fate (or is it coincidence) had not intervened in the form of Alex. I think we'll see the parallels between Claire and Danielle's stories going forward. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Danielle and her crew suffer after Alex was taken?
Quote:
But what if this is a little sleight of hand? It seems clear that the "dream-Yemi" wanted to guide Locke to the Pearl hatch (or something else nearby) but it's not all clear what agenda "waking-Yemi" had.
Commedia, "waking-Yemi" not only had a different demeanor, but told Eko in so many words that he wasn't the 'real thing' - You speak to me as if I were your brother - right before he was killed. Consequently, I think the Yemi that Malkin's daughter saw when she was between places was also "dream Yemi."
Quote:
The question though is was Eko really in trouble was the polarbear meaning him harm or was he actually trying to protect him from both Locke and ultimately from smoky?
Interesting point, RK - perhaps the polar bear did have noble intentions. And if it was trying to keep Eko away from Smokey a cave is the right place. Worked for Adam & Eve (remember them?)

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Old 12-13-06, 10:20 PM   #18
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sacamano View Post
So we're talking about a few seconds either way. Even if I'm wrong, Ana made it into Eko's dream instantly after being shot - that alone is interesting.
That is interesting. Now you mention it, I do remember thinking it seemed a little odd that no sooner had the bullet left the gun, that, timeline wise, we suddenly see Ana stading 'dead' in front of Eko.

I wonder if this is a clue that the visions are not ghosts/spirits of the people they represent. Could they simply be a convenient conduit with which to interact with, and influence the lostie they appear in front of? Who/what is then controlling the visions I'm not sure...I could take a stab at 'the island'.

One other thing - you mentioned that the visions were images conjured from the memories of the losties - so how would the Ana vision fall into this description? As an intsant memory of Michael - which is then 'beamed' to be in front of Eko? That would seem a little tenuous...

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced by your statement that the dreams/visions/images are not all the same (Homer explained this as why he doesn't like using the term 'havid'). I am beginning to feel that the Yemi appearance in front of Eko in 'real time' - i.e. shortly before he died - and the Ana dead scene, also in front of Eko - were not dreams as you call them but mere manipulations by something else to impart a cause and effect onto a lostie.
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Old 12-14-06, 01:43 AM   #19
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Re: Their Dreams Come True

Quote:
Originally Posted by island_maverick View Post
One other thing - you mentioned that the visions were images conjured from the memories of the losties - so how would the Ana vision fall into this description? As an intsant memory of Michael - which is then 'beamed' to be in front of Eko? That would seem a little tenuous...
Mav, the way I am distinguishing the dreams from the visions is not scientific, but logical all the same. In the case of Ana I am saying it is definetly not a vision but a dream because after seeing Ana and then Yemi, Eko wakes up next to Charlie during the night. Eko's dream of dead Ana is eerily similiar to the bloody Boone dream that Locke had in DeM. Both dreams not only alluded to their deaths but also captured how Ana and Boone would die. So I think once again their dreams are glimpses of the future, while the visions are images conjured from the past.

The scene is interesting because dead Ana reminds Eko that it is indeed a dream:

[quote]
[We see Eko chopping wood, working on his church.]
ANA [off camera at first]: What are you building?
EKO: Hello, Ana.
ANA: Well, hello yourself. So, are you going to tell me? What is it?
EKO: I am building a church.
ANA: Now, why the hell would you want to do that?
EKO: Because I was told to.
ANA: Told to by who?
EKO: I was just told. I think it was in a dream.
ANA: A dream like this one?
[Suddenly blood appears on Ana's chest and the corner of her mouth.]
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Old 12-14-06, 02:55 AM   #20
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Re: + Their Dreams Come True

That's awesome I think that snippet also shows a possibility of their being more than one source of these dreams.

Notice how she ask's Eko what he is doing and then is actually insistent on an answer as if this dream vision does not know the answer. Yet Eko answers that he was told in a dream to build the church... well technically he says he thinks it was a dream. if nothing else it shows there is a difference between the dream and the awake visions but might also point to multiple people or entities controling these dreams with different agendas
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