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Old 04-18-17, 09:03 PM   #1
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John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

The writers made Locke a capable and sometimes wise man, especially in the first season or two.
But they gave him some fatal flaws. He was naive at times, and had a bit of a messianic complex much of the time.

Locke was often consumed by the thought that he understood things which others could not grasp. He felt compelled to make them behave as he wanted them to, thinking he knew better than they what was in their best interests. And despite being proven wrong time after time, he never learned. He always felt that this time he knew the answer.
He blew up the communications station, destroying the survivor's chance of communicating with the outside world because he felt that everyone was "meant" to be on the island, so he decided to keep them from leaving.


If I had been Boone that time that Locke knocked him out, leaving a gash on the back of his head, hog-tied him and left him in the jungle, I would have put some knots on that bastard's bald head when I got free.

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Old 04-18-17, 10:19 PM   #2
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Locke was captain of the Titanic. I picture him steering the island via Donkey Wheel. Now whether that was before or after he hanged himself, I don't remember. His was a confused story line. I might be ready for a re-watch in a few years.
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Old 04-19-17, 01:12 AM   #3
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

The confusing part was when Terry O'Quinn was playing the role of MiB when that character was pretending to be John Locke.

topcat, i'm going to refer you to an old thread i think you'll enjoy reading... just click the link here: http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=50716

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Old 04-19-17, 01:32 AM   #4
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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Originally Posted by topcat View Post
The writers made Locke a capable and sometimes wise man, especially in the first season or two.
But they gave him some fatal flaws. He was naive at times, and had a bit of a messianic complex much of the time.

Locke was often consumed by the thought that he understood things which others could not grasp. He felt compelled to make them behave as he wanted them to, thinking he knew better than they what was in their best interests. And despite being proven wrong time after time, he never learned. He always felt that this time he knew the answer.
He blew up the communications station, destroying the survivor's chance of communicating with the outside world because he felt that everyone was "meant" to be on the island, so he decided to keep them from leaving.


If I had been Boone that time that Locke knocked him out, leaving a gash on the back of his head, hog-tied him and left him in the jungle, I would have put some knots on that bastard's bald head when I got free.
Fatal flaws make a character interesting, usually. It is possibly to make one that is too interesting. A remark I heard once is that while it is good to show the audience the character's warts, nobody out there wants to see the ones on his butt.
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Old 04-26-17, 07:11 PM   #5
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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Fatal flaws make a character interesting, usually. It is possibly to make one that is too interesting. A remark I heard once is that while it is good to show the audience the character's warts, nobody out there wants to see the ones on his butt.
LOL, so true.

Actually I liked the Locke character, rather I enjoyed it, because Terry OQuinn played him so well.
I thought his personality was not consistent. At times in the early going he was quite competent, level headed, and mature. Then we saw changes in Locke. He became obsessed with the powers of the island and his destiny with regards to it.
Then we saw him become emotionally labile, naive, and easily manipulated by Ben Linus. This was a big departure from the early Locke. It was hard to put one over on John Locke in the first season.

Speaking of Ben Linus, he was a despicable individual, something like a demon. From the very beginning he told lie after lie after lie. When he attacked Ana Lucia he told her "you're the killer. You killed two people, good people who were leaving you alone". That was of course a HUGE lie also. Ethan was a murderer, and so was Goodwin. They both killed without compunction. Goodwin's rationale was that the guy he killed wasn't useful to the others, and wasn't that great a guy. Ethan killed to force the group to turn over Claire. "good people who were leaving you alone". I wanted to kill Ben Linus.

It was a shame Ana Lucia stopped Sayid from killing Ben. I know he was central to the story of the island and therefore could not be killed off in the second season. But of the people who deserved to die, Ben was near or at the top of the list. I couldn't get past that. Even when I saw the good alter ego of Ben, the teacher in that world without the crash segment, I still didn't like him.
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Old 04-27-17, 04:21 PM   #6
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Ben is a very complicated character. He was easy to hate, and it was easy to love hating him. By the end i think we realized that he was just as LOST as everybody else. I don't think he really found himself until after Jacob's death, and Alex's death was a major turning point for him as well. He did eventually find redemption, though. The nice little moment with Ben and Hurley telling each other that they were great ones and twos displayed to me that Ben was able to change his ways and become a good person.

But as for his considerable long list of evil acts, i thought he treated Sayid the worst. He used Sayid as his personal assassin for years, and then left him with nothing but a giant hole in his soul. Sayid himself was ripe for the picking for such use, due to his own demons and self-loathing, and he was almost as complicated a character as Ben.

Bear in mind that Ben was raised by no mother, and with Roger Workman as his father. So he was really raised by the Dharma initiative, a group that he betrayed and murdered because he had become a pawn in the game being played between Jacob and his brother. I think Ben deified Jacob for most of his life, and i think he learned his master manipulator skills from Jacob, who was really no more of a "good guy" than his brother - they were both raised in isolation by a madwoman. Power corrupts, as the old saw says, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Island was a source of immense power, and most if not all of the characters used that power knowingly or otherwise. Characters like Jacob and Ben, who figured out how to use that power more consciously, became corrupted. Locke wanted that power VERY badly, and it turned him from a sympathetic and capable person into a despicable puppet. Locke's story started as a miracle in Walkabout, but it had a very sad ending in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.
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Old 04-28-17, 02:36 PM   #7
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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Ben is a very complicated character. He was easy to hate, and it was easy to love hating him. By the end i think we realized that he was just as LOST as everybody else. I don't think he really found himself until after Jacob's death, and Alex's death was a major turning point for him as well. He did eventually find redemption, though. The nice little moment with Ben and Hurley telling each other that they were great ones and twos displayed to me that Ben was able to change his ways and become a good person.

But as for his considerable long list of evil acts, i thought he treated Sayid the worst. He used Sayid as his personal assassin for years, and then left him with nothing but a giant hole in his soul. Sayid himself was ripe for the picking for such use, due to his own demons and self-loathing, and he was almost as complicated a character as Ben.

Bear in mind that Ben was raised by no mother, and with Roger Workman as his father. So he was really raised by the Dharma initiative, a group that he betrayed and murdered because he had become a pawn in the game being played between Jacob and his brother. I think Ben deified Jacob for most of his life, and i think he learned his master manipulator skills from Jacob, who was really no more of a "good guy" than his brother - they were both raised in isolation by a madwoman. Power corrupts, as the old saw says, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Island was a source of immense power, and most if not all of the characters used that power knowingly or otherwise. Characters like Jacob and Ben, who figured out how to use that power more consciously, became corrupted. Locke wanted that power VERY badly, and it turned him from a sympathetic and capable person into a despicable puppet. Locke's story started as a miracle in Walkabout, but it had a very sad ending in The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham.
Yes the theme of redemption ran throughout the show. We were often shown the worst sides of people at first, as with Sawyer, Charlie, Ben, Jin, Mr. Echo, Ana Lucia, and others. We gradually learned their back stories and gained insight into the experiences influencing their personalities and flaws. And we saw their nobler characteristics when they acted out of love. There was a battle between good and evil theme as well.
I thought the show depicted Jacob as essentially a force for good. But I am still confused on one point. Richard Alpert worked for Jacob all his time on the island. So presumably all his actions were taken in congruence with Jacob's wishes, right? So am I to understand that Jacob ordered the massive gas attack on the Dharma Initiative people? Because it appeared that Richard Alpert was aware that the massacre would occur. (Ben had long wanted to leave the Dharma people and join the 'others'. So did Ben collude with Alpert and the others in that gas, genocidal attack?) My question is, did Jacob tell Alpert to kill all the Dharma people? That seems very out of character for Jacob. Or...was Ben the architect of the gas attack? Did he warn the "others" and provide gas masks for them? That seems more likely, but this point was never clear to me.
Do you have any insights on this?

As you indicated, the back story on Ben explains a lot about his personality. And there was another strong influence: when Sayid shot young Ben in the chest and Kate and Sawyer took him to Alpert and the others, Alpert said he could save him but it would change him forever. Which brother did the healing? What kind of devil's bargain was struck to save the young Ben? That point was never clear to me either. Any thoughts on this?

It seemed to me that Ben was more in league with the MiB smoke monster thing than with Jacob. Both of them claimed to be the good guys, on the side of the people on the island, and both killed without compunction when the urge struck them. Both were manipulators, terrorize-ers, liars, etc.
Ben knew just how to manipulate Sayid, playing on his grief for his lost love. Once he tapped into that rage he convinced Sayid that he was doing a service, eliminating "bad men". Ben was a consummate liar and manipulator. It amazed me to listen to how he painted his band of kidnappers, and murderers, as "the good guys". He lied as he played on the guilt of the survivors who were forced to kill the men he sent after them. "We don't kill people" Ben told them, but that was another huge lie. Ben had destroyed the voice of his own conscience; he suffered no pangs of guilt or shame. And he killed without compunction. When caught in a lie he immediately pivoted into more lies and manipulations. He was good at it. Ben was jealous too. He told Locke he shot him because he had heard Jacob's voice, and Ben hadn't.
At the end, when all his power had been stripped away, when the only person he seemed to care about had been murdered, when he realized how he himself had been used, he seemed repentant. He seemed genuine when he spoke to Hugo.
Then there was that sideways flash, the segment with Ben as a school teacher. I guess this was a view of how Ben might have been if he had not been corrupted by the power of the island and the evil force of the smoke monster. I felt this was another nod to the idea that we all have the capacity for good or evil, depending upon which forces we draw our strength from.

I agree that another theme, or plot line at least, was the bit about power corrupting. In the end the power of love for others and self sacrifice to save everyone else overcame the evil power. Jack (who actually got on my nerves a fair amount at times) had his own inner demons, but struggled to do what he thought was the right thing. Unlike Locke, Jack didn't attempt to force the group to follow him, or kill others to shape the destinies of the group. The power of the island didn't seduce him to do the evil which Locke did (e.g. killing the girl from the freighter with a knife in the back). Instead Jack ultimately, willingly sacrificed himself after passing the island power on to Hugo. That was an almost Christ-like scene.
I noticed that this show was not hostile to any religion. Many shows I watch these days depict priests, preachers, etc. as badly flawed, hypocritical, morally weak, or corrupted. In LOST I never saw that kind of thing. Mr. Echo's brother was a good man, and Mr. Echo became a good man as he humbly tried to don the mantle of his lost brother. There was no religious push or sell, but there was no smear of it either.

I read an article about how the show was conceived and produced. It was at a time when the network was struggling to get some hit shows. Someone had a rough idea for this show and pitched it to execs, shortly before the start of the next season. The reception was luke warm but they decided to give it a shot. Most shows have writers working for 6 months or more to construct the plot, develop characters, etc. But LOST began with a couple of writers working for one month on the pilot. And the whole first season the writers were under the gun to crank out the next episode in time to shoot it. The show was not expected to make it from the start, but the execs needed shows, needed something to fill the time slot at least long enough to find something else. One of the writers left after the pilot was created, increasing the sense that the show was not going to make it. But people began to watch it and it survived.
Perhaps the pressure on the writers to create quickly under a deadline helped make the show interesting. I wonder if the idea of the hatch Locke discovered was conceived late on some coffee drinking night, and hurried into production shortly afterward. lol When the first season finally ended they had some time to sketch out the second season more fully.

Whatever it was that inspired them to create this show, I am thankful for it. It is very different to almost anything I have seen before. I am sure comparisons can be drawn with other shows, from Gilligan's Island onward, but the similarities are passing at best.
I like it more now than when I first saw it. I am currently binge watching it again.

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Old 04-28-17, 11:09 PM   #8
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

Great post!

I think Ben colluded with "The Others" to kill off the DI. Consider that Smokie shared Monther's misanthopy - Smokie believed that people should stay away from the Island, while Jacob was the one who kept bringing people to the Island. If Ben had colluded with Smokie, i think it would have gone down differently. Ben could've disabled their anti-Smokie tech and Smokie could've annihilated the whole camp by himself. Jacob liked to get others involved aka have others do his dirty work. Furthermore, if Ben had colluded with Smokie to kill off the DI, how would that have gotten him in the good graces of "The Others?"

It was Jacob. He gave orders to Alpert to relay to Ben, he gave lists to Alpert to relay to Ben. He probably even plotted to have Ben replace Charles Widmore. It's not hard to draw the conclusion that he supported Ben's claim over Widmore's when they clashed, at the very least - look at what happened to Widmore's freighter.

After Jacob died, and Jack sacrificed himself to put the most selfless of them in power, everything changed. It wasn't because Smokie was dead, it was because BOTH of them were dead.
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Old 04-29-17, 09:16 AM   #9
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

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Great post!

I think Ben colluded with "The Others" to kill off the DI. Consider that Smokie shared Monther's misanthopy - Smokie believed that people should stay away from the Island, while Jacob was the one who kept bringing people to the Island. If Ben had colluded with Smokie, i think it would have gone down differently. Ben could've disabled their anti-Smokie tech and Smokie could've annihilated the whole camp by himself. Jacob liked to get others involved aka have others do his dirty work. Furthermore, if Ben had colluded with Smokie to kill off the DI, how would that have gotten him in the good graces of "The Others?"

It was Jacob. He gave orders to Alpert to relay to Ben, he gave lists to Alpert to relay to Ben. He probably even plotted to have Ben replace Charles Widmore. It's not hard to draw the conclusion that he supported Ben's claim over Widmore's when they clashed, at the very least - look at what happened to Widmore's freighter.

After Jacob died, and Jack sacrificed himself to put the most selfless of them in power, everything changed. It wasn't because Smokie was dead, it was because BOTH of them were dead.
I pretty much saw it that way when I first watched it. But in retrospect I began to question the idea of Jacob ordering the genocide of the Dharma people.
As you pointed out, the smoke monster, or MiB, hated people and killed them from time to time. But when we see Jacob, he is usually healing people, consoling them, etc. He may cause the death bad people, like Juliette's husband (hit by that bus). But the Dharma people weren't really bad people, just scientists mostly.
And Ben did have interactions with the smoke monster, at least to the extent that he could summon him when he wanted him, as he did when Widmore's mercenaries killed his daughter. But there is no evidence from the show suggesting that the MiB was involved in the gas attack.

I keep coming back to the fact that Ben hated the Dharma people, especially his dad. He wanted to leave them and had since he was a child. He was a damaged, vindictive person. I can easily visualize him devising the gas attack. He could have contacted Richard Alpert and told him he could get rid of all those troublesome Dharma people if he could finally join the others.

Also, when Hugo saw the pit full of dead Dharma bodies and asked what happened to them, Locke looked at Ben and said "he did". That isn't proof, but it is congruent with the idea that Ben carried out the attack. Ben certainly knew exactly when it would happen as he timed his dad's dead to coincide with the deaths of the rest of the Dharmas. So he was intimately familiar with the details of the attack.
Either Ben conceived the plan and enlisted the help of the others, or he was the inside man of Alpert's plan.
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Old 04-29-17, 04:01 PM   #10
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Re: John Locke sometimes naive and stupid

I agree that using the poison gas specifically was probably Ben's idea. Keep in mind that Ben had been brought to the Temple years before that, when Sayid shot him in the chest.

I think the DI had to go because they were getting too close to the source of the Island's power, and Jacob gave the green light because he didn't want that power scientifically quantified, or maybe even their drilling actually threatened to create a cataclysm. I think a lot of the Others were probably more than a little jealous of the Dharma digs, too. Those comfy and well-stocked stations, the Barracks, the sub, the guard shark... a pretty sweet setup, and i doubt they wasted much time getting themselves comfy cozy in there after the DI was wiped out. They also pretended that they were the DI, i think. I say that because of the food drops. It's possible that the food drops were carried out for a different reason, though, which would be that Mittelos or another shell corporation administered off-Island by the Others bought up the off-Island Dharma holdings, and carried out the food drops even though they knew that there was no longer any more actual DI personnel left on-Island. I personally found this aspect of the story to be fascinating, that the Others maintained vast power in the outside world as well as controlling the Island itself, and that they had dangerous enemies out there too.

"I chose you because you were flawed." It's true that at least one of Jacob's lists was people who were to be ushered safely and quietly off the Island. I don't think he truly believed that keeping the Island sacred was saving the world, but i do believe that he was right not to want his brother Smokie to be released into the outside world. Why would he specifically want someone flawed to replace him? Could it have had something to do with continuing to keep Smokie contained? It seemed like Jacob knew how to make Smokie vulnerable at the very least, maybe he wasn't sure if the bastard would actually die or not?

"You opened the box." - the warning given to Hurley when he used the numbers to play the lottery. We saw that Island power and influence wasn't limited to the Island. Juliet's husband is a great example too. There are dozens of them, actually, if we read closely enough to see them. So the whole wine bottle metaphor was really just about keeping Smokie contained.

Locke's sacrifice was ultimately key to Smokie's demise, and he was set upon that path by an interesting mix of people: Ben, Widmore, and Eloise Hawking - all of whom had at one point been the leader of the Others, subordinate of course to Jacob, who administered through Richard Alpert. Ben and Charles hated each other, resented each other, and went to war against each other, but they worked together towards Jacob's greater purpose of freeing the Island of Smokie. Do you think they did so intentionally?

I'm not convinced that Jacob himself actually ever healed anybody. I think the Island healed people. The contrast in method between the way Rose and Locke were healed and the way Ben's cancer was healed might be pretty telling. The Island itself was considered a character in its own right by the writers and showrunners, i don't know if you were aware of that or not.
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