[jmb3rg3r]

In at least two scenes now, we've seen that Jack has an extraordinary memory.

* In Orientation, he remembered "the numbers" after hearing them only once from Desmond -- and remembered them accurately enough to correct Locke's faulty memory.

* In The Long Con, he heard the combination of the ammo room once and remembered it.

In both cases, the structure of the scenes encouraged us to note Jack's memory as unusual. In The Long Con, Locke asked if he needed to write the numbers down. Jack declined saying he had gotten them on the first hearing. In Orientation, a similar dynamic -- Jack cut off Desmond before he could repeat the numbers a second time, but he nevertheless remembered the last number was 42 instead of 32.

Jack also remembered Desmond before Desmond remembered him, and he remembered Ana Lucia's drink preference.

Since fully half of Lost is based in memory, I think this raises some interesting questions. Jack's memory is better than Locke's. Are Jack's flashbacks more accurate than Locke's?

Have other characters showed interesting or unusual traits -- either strengths or weaknesses -- in memory? If so, how does this inform their flashbacks and the accuracy of their view of the world? Does memory relate to reality on LOST? (I would argue it almost certainly does.)

Some of this has been covered previously here and in various discussions of implanted memory theories, but I'd like to approach this topic fresh from the perspective of focusing very specifically on the explicit verbal clues about remembering and reality. If this is too redundant, we can always fold it back into the earlier thread.

A few starter points to think about:

* Hurley remembered Arzt's first name from the manifest.

* The question of who remembers whom from the plane has figured significantly for the castaways.

* Claire lost her memory -- and the first memory she recovered was peanut butter, a memory of something unreal that later became real.

* Charlie remembered nothing from his abduction.

* Michael remembered Walt's birthday. Walt -- whose mind is "special" -- didn't remember Michael at all.

* Eko's stick is inscribed with "Things I need to remember."

* Sayid didn't remember Nadia until prompted.

* Libby told Hurley she couldn't believe he didn't remember stepping on her foot.

* Sawyer's letter: "But one of these days I'm going to find you and I'm going to give you this letter so you'll remember what you done to me."

Questions:

* Does memory dictate reality on LOST?

* And if so, whose memories are the strongest? Whose are least reliable? Could this affect their status, whether in strength or weakness, on the Island?

* Does memory precede reality on Lost, or follow it? For example, the flashbacks are often prompted by something on the Island, be it a haunted boar or a haunted horse. Do the events on the Island trigger or even create the memories that explain them? ETA: Or do the memories trigger or create the events?

* Are there other specific examples we can find where characters may have verbally (or otherwise) prompted memories in other characters which were not present before -- such as Nadia with Sayid, specifically?

JMB


Want to read threads dealing with related ideas? CLICK HERE

[Kinmar]

I also thought that him not needing a repeat of the combo or to write them down and the way he declined was made very evident. Good ideas in your post.

[ZigbertToshicus]

Very interesting questions. After reading this, I started searching the lazy way (ctrl +F) through a few of the transcripts. I've only looked at a few, but already some pretty interesting things popped right out:

- In "Tabula Rasa" (very interesting title in light of your thread), Kate starts to remember her back story right after seeing the Marshal's face. He is obviously interested in her before that and is talking to Jack about the fact that she's dangerous. She also feels apprehensive about him and asks Jack about what he's saying. But is after actually looking at his face that her flashback starts.

- In "White Rabbit," there were a couple of striking Island cues that came just before important Jack flashbacks about his father. 1) Hurley and Charlie are trying to get Jack to ration the water. There's lots of talk about water, then Jack walks away. He suddenly stops and remembers his father, a flashback that begins with Christian Shephard dropping ice cubes into a glass. 2) Jack sees the empty coffin in the wreckage just before his flashback about arguing with the airline about putting the coffin on the plane. 3) I just also note that Jack's father keeps wandering around the Island throughout this episode, during the key time when our understanding of Jack's past (or his understanding of it) is being formed. The title could hint that this vision is the White Rabbit that leads Jack into the new world.

Anyway, I'm very intrigued by this and am eager to see where you're taking it. In these couple of cases -- and I'm sure there are many more -- there does seem to be something in the Island reality that precedes the flashback in the narrative.

I guess if it weren't subtle there would be no need for a forum like this, but I would just point out as a caution that this could also simply be explained as good writing. I mean, the flashbacks would seem really disjointed from the rest of the story if there weren't transitional elements to tie them together. Still, you're right that memory is fully one-half of the story and it would be even better writing if the memory meant something within the reality of the Island beyond simply shedding light on who the characters are. I haven't read some of the other threads you refer to and this is a new line of thinking for me. Very interesting.

[ZigbertToshicus]

I guess they wouldn't do this because it would tip their hand, but I wonder if there are any examples of the same Island reality cue being incorporated into different Losties' memories in different ways. I mean, we've seen lots of links between the Losties in pre-Island life. Were any of the different Losties' flashbacks that include cross-over elements sparked by the same on-Island cue?

[jmb3rg3r]

Thanks. I've patiently waited to start a thread until I was sure I actually had something to say (although I did start the "Everyone on this board is dead" theory in the closing hours of the ezboard years, for which I do not apologize!).

The 23rd Psalm and I think a handful of other episodes started in flashback, so there's clearly some wiggle room in terms of the relationship. In the case of the 23rd Psalm, however, the manifestation (the plane) did still precede the flashback. ETA: And Eko inferred the existence of the plane from the statue, before he was told about it. So his memory of the plane apparently preceded his knowledge of the plane, whether or not it preceded the manifestation of the plane.

Twice, episodes have opened with a mixture of current and past reality in dream form -- Hurley and Charlie in each case...

Originally Posted by ZigbertToshicus

Were any of the different Losties' flashbacks that include cross-over elements sparked by the same on-Island cue?

Polar bears have popped up here and there in the flashbacks.... Kate's refrigerator magnet, I think, and Walt's stuffed animal.

Pilot opened with the plane crash, then people's memories of the crash (as if filled in to explain how they got there).

Walkabout opened with a flashback to the plane crash itself, then to the knives, then from the knives back to the flashback proper. Interestingly, in this case, the flashback is relatively unique in that it is discontinuous from conditions on the island. By this, I mean the other flashbacks explain the history of the dynamics seen on the island, whereas Locke's flashback (alone, I think, but I may be wrong) illustrates a dis-continuity between conditions on the island and in the past.

The numbers were also seen first on Rousseau's map, then retroactively in Hurley's previous life.

[ZigbertToshicus]

This theory has kept resurfacing in my head throughout the day. One of the nice things about it is that it points to a possible explanation for why there was so much cross-over in the Losties' pre-Island stories. In the absence of a theory like this, I would lean toward positing some sort of hands-on manipulation of events throughout the Losties' pre-Island lives (or at least the preceding few years), or some weird science that allows the DI to control destiny, or something like that. I'm still open to all of those. But your theory could explain all of the strange coincidences as being caused by similar on-Island triggers for related off-Island memories among the Losties.

Eko's encounter with the Monster, I think, supports this. If you've looked at still shots of the images flashing within the black smoke, you can see some events from Eko's pre-Island life that we saw in his flashback, and some events that we (perhaps) have yet to see in flashbacks. At least, this shows that there is some uploading/downloading of the contents of some Losties' memories and the Monster's/Island's memory. But if I understand you, you are not necessarily saying that the Island or DI or whoever is deliberately implanting certain memories, but rather that the Losties' combined past/present experiences are generated together on the Island, so they experience the flashback at the same time as related events are happening, and related objects often appearing, on the Island.

In an indirect way, I think the mode of story-telling supports your idea -- when they make such a big deal out of memory, on-Island manifestations from the off-Island past, and time-disjointed storytelling, perhaps they are getting at the unreality of memory, on-Island/off-Island distinctions, and time.

I think, though, that we do have some indications of real off-Island life. Last night's radio show would be a good one if we could be sure it was real. But what about the official Web sites? And the Gary Troup cross-over novel? Maybe that's a stretch, but aren't the PTB, in a way, saying that these things related to happenings on the Island also exist in the off-Island world? And what about Ana Lucia's and Jack's shared memory from the airport lounge? When they were both on opposite sides of the Island, and presumably not exposed to the same memory triggers, why do they both remember meeting and having drinks?

I don't know, but I think shared memories might help us figure out what's really going on here. I could see interpreting them both ways. The fact that some memories are shared might indicate that they are real, but then I think we need to try to identify which shared on-Island experiences caused the off-Island memories of some Losties to merge.

[jmb3rg3r]

Originally Posted by ZigbertToshicus

I think, though, that we do have some indications of real off-Island life.

We do, but it's somewhat interesting that most of the things with personal significance to the castaways were lost in the crash and only recovered later on the Island, usually under fairly extraordinary circumstances. For instance:

* Charlie's guitar
* Christian's coffin
* Kate's toy plane

What they found around them at the time of the crash were basic functional things like razors and hairbrushes, or unusual things that were disconnected from their owners -- like Walt's comic, which also tied back to an unusual manifestation.

Again, Locke is the exception -- his knives. Except... were they his knives? He was asked and answered as if they were. Did we see him pack them in his flashback or owning them in the past?

[I Hate Seabillies]

Originally Posted by jmberger

Are Jack's flashbacks more accurate than Locke's?

I hope you realize the flashbacks aren't daydreaming on the part of the character. It's not the characters memory that drives these flashbacks. This isn't JD's (from Scrubs) inner monolgues.

[jmb3rg3r]

Originally Posted by I Hate Seabillies

I hope you realize the flashbacks aren't daydreaming on the part of the character. It's not the characters memory that drives these flashbacks. This isn't JD's (from Scrubs) inner monolgues.

Not so. Sun and Jin remembered the same events differently.

Spoiler: comment from interview

...and the creators have said the FBs are subjective memories.

[jmb3rg3r]

Also, characters have articulated the fact they were reliving specific memories during episodes with flashbacks, such as when Claire told Charlie about the psychic.