Home | Television | Movies | Music | Other Media | Community | Sports | Arcade | Tech | Help
  MyMedia-Forum.com > Television > Other TV > LOST > General Discussion > The unreliable narrators on Lost (flashbacks & island)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-23-06, 08:51 AM   #1
lacenaire
Sees Walt
 
lacenaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'Εσπέρια
Posts: 5,374
The unreliable narrators on Lost (flashbacks & island)

This thread is specifically for posters who like to discuss film theory and narratology.

I am going to post just facts and as objective commentaries as possible.
No plotwise speculations about what's the significance of this narrative device. Many people confuse omniscience and reliability, but you can help in the search for the omniscient narrator of Lost here.


What's an unreliable narrator ?
Quote:
A narrator "whose rendering of the story and/or commentary on it the reader has reasons to suspect. [...] The main sources of unreliability are the narrator's limited knowledge, his personal involvement, and his problematic value-scheme"

Es un narrador cuya producción de la historia o los comentarios que realiza sobre ella suscitan sospechas justificadas en el lector [...] Las causas principales de una narración no fidedigna son la falta de conocimento, la implicación personal y el sistema de valores problemático del narrador..

Rimmon-Kenan, Shlomith. 1983. Narrative Fiction: Contemporary Poetics
. London: Methuen. --page 100).
Another source of unreliability: the suppression of information (ellipsis)
Source: MORRISSETTE, Bruce, Novel and Film: Essays in Two Genres, p.98.


Key moments in the thread:
Spoiler: KEY MOMENTS
  • Melostmo's definitions of the unreliable narrator: Link #1 Link #2 Link #3
  • The concepts of narrator, implied author, author, reader... and different types of narration combining showing and telling: Link
  • Voice and point of view are not the same thing. Examples in Lost and in video games: Link
  • The Fourth dimension in movies: Frame transitions and montage analyses: Jays Tao's western movies deconstructions; jmberger's and Latenac's replies (posts 226 to 240). Link #1
  • Lost as post-modern fiction (my little essays and analyses): Link#1 Link#2
  • Types of unreliability of the character's narrations: Mimetic & Normative -> Link#1
  • Flashbacks, subjective narration and fragmentation of time: Link
  • Questions we can ask about a narrator, to check his/her reliability: Link
  • Discarding useless old terminology: The narrative person gives very little information, maybe none at all -> Link
  • The use of the forth dimension in Lost and its similarities with futurist art (posts 214 to 225): Link #1 Link#2
  • Types of analepses link
  • Contrast between Peter Jackson's King Kong and Lost. Link and Link2



Proof of the Unreliable Narrator on Lost:
  • Comparison between Sun and Jin's flashbacks
    (cracked by Spooky and Lostinwilderness). LINK.
    __
  • Jane_eris has detected differences between Sawyer's flashbacks in Outlaws
  • Jane_eris has detected differences between Jack's, Kate's and Charlie's flashbacks in The Pilot
  • Claire's flashback: Story and Discourse. Historia y Discurso. LINK LINK2

  • The first sequence of the pilot: Identification with the character through his focalization, ocularization and auricularization ->Link #1 and Link #2

  • Jane_eris' analysis of one scene in House of the Rising Sun:Link
  • Jane_eris' analysis of 1x05 White Rabbit Link
  • Sun's flashback to the hotel room: Transition identifies the flashbacks as a memory.
    • Another Metalepsis (Breach of the illusion of reality): The voice of the hotel director is heard when the camera is still showing Sun on the beach, before we see the segue that introduces the flashback (fade to black + swoosh sound = down the rabbit hole).
  • Comparison between Hurley's and Libby's flashbacks: See bottom of this page.
__
  • Hurley seeing Dave on the island: See bottom of this page.
  • Boone's experience: The camera showed what he was seeing in his mind.
  • Charlie's religious trance: The camera showed what he was seeing in his mind.
  • Charlie's surrealistic flashback in Fire+Water Link

  • Walt's flashback in "Special": Typical structure of the flashbacks on Lost . LINK
  • Jack's quest: The camera showed what he was seeing in his mind (His father) 1x05 - White Rabbit.
  • Entering the hatch (6 points of view): Desmond, Jack, Locke, Kate, Hurley, Sayid. LINK1 and LINK2. SelfProjectrealized's interpretation: LINK.
  • Rose's flashback to the airport: She was narrating it to Bernard. Voice over of Island-Narrator-Rose in the flashback. LINK
  • The Orientation Movie: 3 narrative levels. Link1 and Link2
  • Charlie's and Eko's encounter with smokey: LINK & link2 (time). Bob Sacamano's analysis link.
.
  • Desmond's stream of consciousness before turning the key: "I love you, Penny". LINK
  • The Empirical Doubt at work: Locke's story and Desmond's reinterpretation. LINK
.
  • Memory Triggering: Perceiving objects fire up neuronal pathways bringing for a small fraction of time the memories to the conscience of the character. Episode 2x24 and 3x05 (for example).

  • Eko's episode (3x05): Dreaming a flashback. (Link)


  • Meet our unreliable virtual narrators:
    • Juliet, being an unreliable virtual narrator: link
    • TV News anchor (Episode 4x08):
  • Jays Tao's analysis of Exposé 3x14, Nikki and Paulo's episode:Link
  • Melostmo's analysis of Naomi's flashback (4x02): Something reliable emerges that proves Abaddon's and the Freighter-Four's unreliability:Link
  • Juliet's memories, explaining her actions (The other woman 4x06):Link
  • Meet the unreliable narrator, Kevin Johnson (4x08). link
__________________________________________________ _____________________
  • Damon Lindelof's interview talking about the Unreliable narrator: Check this link. You can download that fragment of the docummentary titled "Lost:Revealed".
  • Analysis of Damon Lindelof's "Ultimate Wolverine vs The Hulk": Link
  • Javier Grillo Marxuach's replies at The Fuselage to 2 questions on this topic: Link1 Link2 .
  • Jack Bender's interview in the DVD extras where he shows how TPTB are extremely careful with the POV represented by the camera: Link.
  • David Fury's statement about POV and the outside world. Link
  • Damon Lindelof's interview in the first Marvel podcast comments about the creative process. link
  • Post collecting some statements from TPTB about point of view: Link
  • Damon Lindelof and the reception, interpretation and theorization about the show: TPTB are irrelevant, all we need is the show. link
__________________
Who's the unreliable narrator of Lost? The EMC.
Epiphenomenal Mitochondrial Consciousness.
4815162342
AutHORIzEd

Last edited by lacenaire; 04-06-08 at 09:07 AM.
lacenaire is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-23-06, 01:36 PM   #2
LostInWilderness
Hears the Whispers
 
LostInWilderness's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Captain's cabin
Posts: 13,065
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episode 2x15 and 2x16

You just like people to throw rocks at you, don't you?
LostInWilderness is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-23-06, 01:40 PM   #3
x

Escapes the Cage
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 31,715
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episode 2x15 and 2x16

Let he who is without sin...
x is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-23-06, 02:03 PM   #4
lacenaire
Sees Walt
 
lacenaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'Εσπέρια
Posts: 5,374
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episode 2x15 and 2x16

Hi Lostinwilderness

Now I am even more confident than ever.
Basing things on the facts will do that to you.
__________________
Who's the unreliable narrator of Lost? The EMC.
Epiphenomenal Mitochondrial Consciousness.
4815162342
AutHORIzEd
lacenaire is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-23-06, 02:36 PM   #5
LostInWilderness
Hears the Whispers
 
LostInWilderness's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Captain's cabin
Posts: 13,065
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episode 2x15 and 2x16

I haven't had a doubt about the unreliable narrator for a long time. But each of these threads turns into you trying to convince a bunch of people who simply refuse to be convinced. Maybe this one will avoid that sometimes heated debate, but I doubt it.
LostInWilderness is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-23-06, 02:41 PM   #6
lacenaire
Sees Walt
 
lacenaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'Εσπέρια
Posts: 5,374
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episode 2x15 and 2x16

I am not trying to convince anyone Lostinwilderness.
I won't debate.
Anyone can make their own analysis and it will be there for everyone to read.
I'm over that now, I told you.

I am just doing for my own personal pleasure small commentaries about the flashbacks. It's a good mental exercise.

And I hope to move other people to do their own commentaries about all the other flashbacks, I can't cover them all.
THe point would be to analyze them all and categorize them.

The flashbacks/dreams/visions as metadiegetic narratives (second level narratives) may have different functions in relation to the island story (intradiegetic).
  • Explicative -> check
  • Predictive -> check
  • Thematic -> check
  • Persuasive -> check
  • Distractive -> ?
  • Obstructive -> ?
__________________
Who's the unreliable narrator of Lost? The EMC.
Epiphenomenal Mitochondrial Consciousness.
4815162342
AutHORIzEd

Last edited by lacenaire; 03-23-06 at 02:43 PM.
lacenaire is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-23-06, 03:30 PM   #7
eckert
Pushes the Button
 
eckert's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: nebraska
Posts: 725
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episode 2x15 and 2x16

im not sure if i completely agree with you, but you have some impressive evidence and information to support your theory. nice work.
eckert is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 03-27-06, 08:55 AM   #8
lacenaire
Sees Walt
 
lacenaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'Εσπέρια
Posts: 5,374
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episodes 2x15 and 2x16

Well, thank you Eckert.

I'm trying to explain this concept because imo it's important to understand the show.
But it's not fundamental, if some viewers want to simply inmerse in the show it's fine,
it's another way to enjoy the show.
__________________
Who's the unreliable narrator of Lost? The EMC.
Epiphenomenal Mitochondrial Consciousness.
4815162342
AutHORIzEd

Last edited by lacenaire; 04-07-06 at 12:33 AM.
lacenaire is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-06-06, 12:23 PM   #9
lacenaire
Sees Walt
 
lacenaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'Εσπέρια
Posts: 5,374
Re: The unreliable narrator - Episodes 2x15 - 2x16 - 2x18

Episode 2x18 DAVE

The Unreliable Narrator

1. Hurley's flashback: Focalization + Ocularization on what he sees with his mind.




2. LIBBY'S Flashback: Focalization and Ocularization on what she sees with her eyes.

a) Zoom in on her + Swoosh sound (=Down the rabbit hole)



b) Object seen.


c) Subject perceiving (focalization on her).
__________________
Who's the unreliable narrator of Lost? The EMC.
Epiphenomenal Mitochondrial Consciousness.
4815162342
AutHORIzEd

Last edited by lacenaire; 04-12-06 at 11:26 PM.
lacenaire is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 04-07-06, 12:07 AM   #10
lacenaire
Sees Walt
 
lacenaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 'Εσπέρια
Posts: 5,374
Re: The unreliable narrator on Lost

The Unreliable narrator is on the island too:

Who is focalized? : Hurley
What is it that the camera shows?: What Hurley sees in his mind.

_____POV Shot ________________Gaze shot
_______Shot _________________Counter-shot

_______
__________________
Who's the unreliable narrator of Lost? The EMC.
Epiphenomenal Mitochondrial Consciousness.
4815162342
AutHORIzEd

Last edited by lacenaire; 05-26-06 at 04:07 PM.
lacenaire is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply
« MyMedia-Forum.com > Television > Other TV > LOST > General Discussion »


Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


» Latest Posts: All Discussion Forums
Title, Username, & Date Last Post Replies Forum
Supernatural - CW Thursday ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
Leia Amos
Today 10:57 AM
by nsguy
572 Featured TV General
The Orville - Fox Thursday ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
nsguy
Today 10:52 AM
by 9mile monster
124 Featured TV General
Woody's: One anti-inflammatory from... ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
Frecklestoo
Today 10:51 AM
by 9mile monster
5,467 Lostaways! :)
Survivor: Heroes vs. Healers vs.... ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
Mr. Bill
Today 10:50 AM
by FrodoFraggins
45 Survivor
this or that ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
Zaphod of Whiskers
Today 01:41 AM
by Zaphod of Whiskers
122 Music General Discussion
Excellent non-fiction historical book...
azteclady
Today 01:32 AM
by azteclady
0 Literature General Discussion
What's New/super legit maths forum ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
catnap
Today 01:10 AM
by gertie
8,634 Lostaways! :)
Star Trek Continues - Webseries ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
Mr. Bill
Yesterday 11:44 PM
by Mr. Bill
110 Featured TV General
Mr. Robot - USA Wednesday ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
Hodgepodge
Yesterday 11:03 PM
by Mr. Bill
178 Featured TV General
SEAL Team - CBS Wednesday
Mr. Bill
Yesterday 10:54 PM
by Mr. Bill
9 Featured TV General
Browne Popular Culture Library hiring...
azteclady
Yesterday 09:55 PM
by azteclady
0 Writing as a Career
Dynasty - CW Wednesday
Hodgepodge
Yesterday 09:24 PM
by Hodgepodge
2 Featured TV General
» Online Users: 280
4 members and 276 guests
9mile monster, FrodoFraggins, nsguy, Warthawg1
Most users ever online was 26,316, 05-12-14 at 10:02 AM.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.0

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:03 AM.

Graphic Design by Crazy Creative
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.