Home | Television | Movies | Music | Other Media | Community | Sports | Arcade | Tech | Help
  MyMedia-Forum.com > Television > Other TV > LOST > LOST Theories > + All The Flashbacks Were Time Travel Events

LOST Theories So you think you know some secrets of the island? Maybe you can explain everything. If it's original and you can back it up, we'd love to hear it.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-28-07, 10:21 AM   #1
John Charles
BANNED
Carries Big Stick
 
Tournaments Won: 1

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,524
+ All The Flashbacks Were Time Travel Events

Lucid flashbacks.

Time travel.

In Lost, the parameters for time travel are a departure from mainstream thinking. Normally, when pondering time travel, one of the thoughts sure to go through your mind is the result of having an encounter with yourself. What would it be like? How would that effect your life, humanity, etc...?

Time travel doesn't occur that way in Lost. One does not simply jump from one time frame to another. You don't land in some random place in some past or future time.

Alternatively, we're offered a viewpoint on time travel in which the parameter is one's own life. Meaning, you can't travel back to time before you were born nor can you travel forward to a time beyond your own death.

Another parameter is that you don't "jump" through time even within the span of your life. Instead, you travel into your own body and within the circumstances that are apparent to you at that determined point in time. It is as if your whole life, everything, is happening at the same moment and you can choose to go to any moment therein.

Think of your life, birth to death, as one hour in time on an analog clock. On this clock there is only a second hand. The second hand represents you. In the real world as we know it, your life's timeline would be represented by the steady movement of the second hand from the start of the hour (birth) to the end of the hour (death). However, on the island, the second hand doesn't represent you in the physical sense but rather in the metaphysical sense. It is your essence, your soul.

Consider having the ability to move the second hand, at your own discretion, to anywhere you choose along the timeline of your life. There is still only one you. There are no separate bodies of you walking around somewhere. There is no time frame that is absent of you because you time traveled away from it. It is merely your own lucid presence experiencing different times in your life without the structure of the linear movement represented by the steady forward plodding of a second hand.

All of the flashbacks and flash forwards we've seen are this type of time travel. The Losties just don't know it yet and therefore they end up coming right back to the point in time where they think they should be - on the island.

Jack more than likely believes that his forward time travel (flash forward) was just his imagination running wild even though it might have felt very real to him.

With Desmond we're practically beaten over the head with this. He doesn't have any answers but he at least knows he is "seeing" the future and re-experiencing the past.

There are others (Dharma? Mittelos? ...) that have this ability and are fully aware of it. Through experimentation they discovered they can extend their lifespan by changing events in their own timeline. Life, however, only seemed to be extended by very small time frames and hence the course correcting theory as described by Mrs. Hawking was developed. They also found that changed events which extend life also yielded more unnatural and violent ends.

Jacob was one that had the ability to time travel. He experimented with life extension by changing the events of his own life via time travel. It is due to this experimentation that Jacob's metaphysical body was cast outside his life's timeline.

Once they realized that this ability did not allow them to extend their life by any great degree, many of them decided to go and change back every event they manipulated, to how it first was. They did not want to bear the burden of an unnatural death. Moreover, they no longer wanted to bear the burden of their own unnatural life and wanted redemption from it. Many of them went so far as to change an event in their life that precluded them from ever discovering the ability to time travel. Hence, their life took a very different course.

Some didn't do this. Some saw their ability as another kind of redemption, an opportunity to go back and right the wrongs in their life, in the world. Others didn't agree with this line of thought and set against it.

What enormous set of circumstances had to be manipulated to get this particular group of seemingly random individuals (the Losties) with an impossible number of interconnections between them to a place that gives them the ability to time travel? Could they be the ones who erased their own memory of it but are now needed to fight against those who are manipulating mankind?

Did Locke originally throw his father out of the window instead of vice versa? If so, did Locke's father not survive? Could that be Locke's changed event that precluded him from finding about about time travel? Does Ben know that Locke is supposed to kill his own father and therefore tries to force him to do it?

Was Ben a patient on which Jack had originally performed back surgery? Did Jack time travel to that event and then pass on doing the surgery, thereby never learning about time travel?

Mrs. Hawking tells Desmond that if he doesn't turn the key then "every single one of us is dead."

Could pressing the button somehow control a unique island trait which allows for the time travel ability? Could you have this ability as long as a portion of your lifespan is spent on the island? Does turning the key somehow stop everyone from having the ability to manipulate flashbacks and flashforwards, stoping time travel? Would it trap the metaphysical body wherever it may be, constricting it to the normal flow of time?

Do babies conceived on the island steal their mother's metaphysical body, killing the mother?

Last edited by John Charles; 03-04-08 at 11:13 PM.
John Charles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 11:32 AM   #2
hallad69
Pushes the Button
 
hallad69's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: no-one's ever come from where I've been
Posts: 548
Re: Redemption

Some very fine thinking there IMO.

Two things to remember:

1) "Only a fool is enslaved by time and space"

2) The universe has a way of course correcting, so yes, perhaps you could go back (or see the future) and change something, but the universe will compensate.
__________________
I'm probably talking rubbish, but ignoring me will not make me go away.

Drink, get drunk, live forever.

keeper of the "P" word, and a dwindling supply of
kittens.

HE'S NOT THE MESSIAH, HE'S A VERY NAUGHTY BOY

Last edited by hallad69; 12-28-07 at 11:42 AM.
hallad69 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 01:05 PM   #3
NeillT006
We Barefootin'
Sees Walt
 
NeillT006's Avatar
Re: Redemption

I have been playing with this same idea for a bit, http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/sh...&postcount=266, and like your treatment of it.

I have been considering Jack and his apparent genius as a surgeon. Could it be that Jack's "talent" is a natural ability to "peak ahead" and then use the information he gains to guide his actions? If so, I wonder if there is more to this whole "count to 5" routine he espouses? Could that be a ritualistic device he uses to put himself in the right frame of mind to "flash?"

N.
__________________

Guilty Ruminant
NeillT006 is online now   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 01:18 PM   #4
sandi
Loves This Place
Cons the Conman
 
sandi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Swinging on a Star
Posts: 28,371
Re: Redemption

Quote:
Jack more than likely believes that his forward time travel (flash forward) was just his imagination running wild even though it might have felt very real to him.
Was Jack aware of the "flash-forwards"? ... or are we, the viewers, only aware of what will happen since Jack made the rescue call?
__________________
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic36_3.gif



Formerly known as clayseason1
sandi is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 01:42 PM   #5
John Charles
BANNED
Carries Big Stick
 
Tournaments Won: 1

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,524
Re: Redemption

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallad69 View Post
Some very fine thinking there IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeillT006 View Post
I have been playing with this same idea for a bit, http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/sh...&postcount=266, and like your treatment of it.
Thank you kind sirs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeillT006 View Post
I have been considering Jack and his apparent genius as a surgeon. Could it be that Jack's "talent" is a natural ability to "peak ahead" and then use the information he gains to guide his actions? If so, I wonder if there is more to this whole "count to 5" routine he espouses? Could that be a ritualistic device he uses to put himself in the right frame of mind to "flash?"
This could very possibly be a technique he used when traveling that is left over so to speak - but that is merely a guess (as it all is ). Great observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clayseason1 View Post
Was Jack aware of the "flash-forwards"? ... or are we, the viewers, only aware of what will happen since Jack made the rescue call?
I believe he is aware that he had flash forwards but his scientific mind more than likely chalked it up to some type of daydreaming. Even though, deep down, he knows it was more. This type of event might be freakier for a guy like Jack, which could be the reason he seems more desparate to get off the island than the rest.
John Charles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 03:44 PM   #6
John Charles
BANNED
Carries Big Stick
 
Tournaments Won: 1

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,524
Re: Redemption

There was one other dimension to this theory that I neglected to talk about in my original post. Since the flashbacks are lucid time travel events, the Losties have the ability to make changes in their actions. It is possible that some (all?) of the flashbacks we see are being changed by the Losty as we are watching.

As if they believe they are merely remembering a past event and therefore direct its course in the way they would have preferred it to go. For instance, have you ever, in your mind, re-played a moment in your life that you're not proud of and fantasized about how you could have or should have done something different? It's like that except the Losties can really change the event.

I believe this may have happened to some or all of the Losties that have died on the island. The changed event forced the hand of fate and hence they were brought to a violent end on the island. Maybe Boone originally held strong and never hooked up with Shannon, but when he unwittingly traveled back to that moment in time he changed it. He might have believed he was merely fantasizing about it but instead he was actually changing the event.

Perhaps this changed event is the reason he died on the island. Perhaps this is the reason that each of the dead Losties has died - they are unknowingly changing their own past.
John Charles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 05:37 PM   #7
Jane
Has to go back
Sees Walt
 
Jane's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Other Side
Posts: 7,210
Re: Redemption

I love it, LS! Yay, we're going to play with time travel! Woo hoo! I've been waiting for this moment.

I have some "constraints" to suggest. At this point I'm only talking about FlashBacks. I think on-Island "looping" is also happening, but a bit differently.

Quote:
Since the flashbacks are lucid time travel events, the Losties have the ability to make changes in their actions. It is possible that some (all?) of the flashbacks we see are being changed by the Losty as we are watching?
What I find quite interesting is the "emotional continuity" between on-Island events and flashbacks. It's often stronger than the "emotional continuity" within an on-Island scene. The scenes at the end of White Rabbit and Deus Ex Machina, from FlashBack to OnIsland are great examples of "emotional continuity".

I suspect that when a FlashBack occurs, a certain amount of Tabula Rasa occurs as well. For example, when Charlie flashes back to the moment on the plane before it crashes, he is no longer aware of what's about to transpire.

However, his "past self" is somewhat influenced by the emotions his on-Island self is experiencing, and those emotional influences become magnified in the presence of a reflective surface, such as a mirror (which is why it's no coincidence that so many characters "change their minds" in the presence of reflective surfaces in FlashBack.)

A Change in Continuity

Charlie rushes to bathroom, has his fix in front of the mirror... and then comes a great series of "reversals." He reaches up to touch his head, and he drops his stash. The continuity of his hand on his forehead between two different camera angles is exquisite. Then, he reaches down to flush away his stash, only to be knocked away by turbulence!

In the moment of dropping the stash, the loop on his necklace becomes reversed. This is not the only "change in continuity" in the scene. Check out the bright yellow rubber band from the heroin baggie which Charlie loops around his fingers, itself a representation of "continuity". That yellow loop switches from being around one finger to being around two, and back again.

Anyways, Charlie isn't about to flush his heroin because he's suddenly decided to turn over a new leaf, not from a conventional timeline perspective at least. His manner of leaving Liam in Australia should disabuse that notion. He had no interest in kicking.

Instead, I suspect he's been influenced by the comment he just got from Kate before the flashback: "You're not a coward." She has faith in him, giving him faith in himself - and *that* is what actually travels in time: his faith, his emotion. This strong emotion may even be what triggered not only having a flashback but the particular flashback as well. In most cases, I don't think the flashbacks are chosen with conscious intent.

A Necessary Entailment: The Predestination Paradox

If Charlie flushes the stash, he can't retrieve it from the cockpit later, which is why he went on the trek in the first place. If he didn't go on the trek, Kate wouldn't have claimed he wasn't a coward, and he'd never have reached to flush at all! So Charlie must not flush his stash - *that* would be a serious breach in "continuity".

I don't think the Universe would tolerate such a paradox. If we're going to play with the idea of time-travel, we must take into consideration such paradoxical situations.

Thankfully a course-correction occurs: the plane hits turbulence, throwing Charlie to the ceiling and away from the flush handle. Charlie dashes out of the bathroom, just as before, but now he also has the memory (which has now actually happened) of trying to leave his drug addiction behind.

If the universe can't course-correct, then Charlie would be in danger of getting Smoked. If Smoky didn't exist, the Island itself might get "course-corrected" by the Universe for generating paradoxes in the first place. In this paradigm, Smoky is the Island's "security system", evolved or designed to "snuff out" paradoxes in a "puff of logic".

Why Embrace This?

It's a very strange idea, to be sure. People have stated up, down, right and left that they don't like time-looping. I myself felt the same way, in another life. It seems a like cheat, an easy way out, like anything goes.

However, with the constraints of Tabula Rasa and Smoky, the stakes are much higher and there's no deus ex machina! Our Losties can't go back and change their pasts willy-nilly, not deliberately with full forethought. In fact, tempting as it is, it's a huge risk. Imagine, with every single flashback (which may even come up unconsciously!) the character is in danger of killing themselves by predestination paradox! What a way to ratchet up the tension!

If I'm right about "continuity", it's also "fair" for the viewers. Reflective surfaces identify for us important decision points, emotional continuity gives us an idea of what influence is in play as well as keeping us focused on the character drama, and "continuity errors" give us the "evidence" to determine if a change actually took place.

Quote:
Quote:
Was Jack aware of the "flash-forwards"? ... or are we, the viewers, only aware of what will happen since Jack made the rescue call?
I believe he is aware that he had flash forwards but his scientific mind more than likely chalked it up to some type of daydreaming. Even though, deep down, he knows it was more. This type of event might be freakier for a guy like Jack, which could be the reason he seems more desparate to get off the island than the rest.
I don't know, I think it's still a bit early in the game to get a handle on the FFs.

I'm inclined to agree with your interpretation. From a narratological point of view, the FFs are just like the FBs, which suggests "remembered" memorird. On the other hand, Jack may only be receiving "emotional influence" from the future. If emotions go both ways with FBs - and I think they do - Jack may be "influencing" his future self as well.

Regardless, I'd consider the actions in the FFs set in stone. His "future" emotions if not memories have influenced his "path", his "destiny". Those actions are now "determined". However, the "meaning" in those events may still change considerably.

That's all for now. Keep dreaming big dreams, Long Sufferer!
Jane is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 08:24 PM   #8
John Charles
BANNED
Carries Big Stick
 
Tournaments Won: 1

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,524
Re: Redemption

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_eris View Post
I love it, LS! Yay, we're going to play with time travel! Woo hoo! I've been waiting for this moment.
Thanks! I share your enthusiasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_eris View Post
What I find quite interesting is the "emotional continuity" between on-Island events and flashbacks. It's often stronger than the "emotional continuity" within an on-Island scene. The scenes at the end of White Rabbit and Deus Ex Machina, from FlashBack to OnIsland are great examples of "emotional continuity".
You are definitely on to something here. I believe it is that feeling of emotion in response to an on island event that helps brings on the flashback. As many of us do, the Losties connect their current emotion to a relatively recent moment in their life where they experienced that same emotion. When the recall such a past moment it comes to the forefront of their consciousness - they're thinking about it. The thought of that moment combined with the strength of the emotion facilitates the time travel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_eris View Post
If Charlie flushes the stash, he can't retrieve it from the cockpit later, which is why he went on the trek in the first place. If he didn't go on the trek, Kate wouldn't have claimed he wasn't a coward, and he'd never have reached to flush at all! So Charlie must not flush his stash - *that* would be a serious breach in "continuity".

I don't think the Universe would tolerate such a paradox. If we're going to play with the idea of time-travel, we must take into consideration such paradoxical situations.
You're good Jane! This leads me to part of this theory that I've been kicking around but hadn't really entirely thought through.

We can't really say how the universe would react to paradoxes. It is possible that if Charlie makes a successful flush that the universe could simply correct by Charlie not going on the trek. So when Charlie travels back to the 'present' maybe he is on the beach doing something else rather than being in the middle of an adventure in the jungle. However, he will still have the memory of going on the trek.

A lucid time traveler would recognize this for what it is. An incidental time traveler might believe the memory to be a dream they had forgotten about. Has that ever happened to you? Something in the real world that triggers the memory of a dream you recently had? It's different from a deja vu because the real world event is simply a reminder of the dream and not a feeling that you're re-living a moment in time.

This is just one possibility of what it could feel like. It is plausible that an incidental time traveler, depending on how far back he travels and what he changes, could have memories of two or more very different lives. This could make him think that maybe he just has an active imagination, or maybe he thinks he's insane, or maybe he figures out what is going on.

But, if the course correcting theory is indeed in play, one can only do so much damage.

However, when you have groups of lucid time travelers changing events to further opposing agendas and goals, one can plainly see how dangerous paradoxes could be created. This might cause a time traveler to believe that if it doesn't stop then "every single on of us is dead."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_eris View Post
From a narratological point of view, the FFs are just like the FBs, which suggests "remembered" memorird. On the other hand, Jack may only be receiving "emotional influence" from the future. If emotions go both ways with FBs - and I think they do - Jack may be "influencing" his future self as well.

Regardless, I'd consider the actions in the FFs set in stone. His "future" emotions if not memories have influenced his "path", his "destiny". Those actions are now "determined". However, the "meaning" in those events may still change considerably.
I believe a flashforward is triggered in a very similar way to the flashback. Emotion is definitely a determining factor. Another determing factor could be your train of thought, whether it be about a person, place, thing, or even an idea. That plus the strength of your current emotion could cause a flash forward.

Once you're in the flash forward, you'll have memories of things you haven't lived through yet. You might also feel complelled to be/act a certain way in the flashforward. A lucid time traveler would know that acting against the compelled nature would mean that he is changing the event. Jack probrably wouldn't know this and therefore he may have acted in accordance with his compelled nature. But then again, we are talking about Jack.

My actual thought is that Jack's mind is totally blown and he needs to get off the island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jane_eris View Post
That's all for now. Keep dreaming big dreams, Long Sufferer!
LOL, thanks. You are a much needed presence here in this forum Jane. So thank YOU for engaging in this thread and all the other threads you've graced with your deep insight.

Last edited by John Charles; 12-28-07 at 08:47 PM.
John Charles is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 08:35 PM   #9
yung23
made Damon Lindelof say "Fermions" on TV :P
Hears the Whispers
 
yung23's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: trapped in an inner product space containing a lattice
Posts: 12,037
Re: Redemption

maybe you two can help me out a bit..

thinking of time travel in relation to looping...

how would you take another path through time, ending up back where you started ?
looping would seem to be invariant, it shouldn't change if its still looping in the same circle..


BUT.. here's my idea, if you could somehow rotate that loop, pivoting from your frame of reference, you could in theory, take another path through time and end up back where you began..

maybe like being stuck in spin foam.



here is an illustrated idea of spin foam..

Spoiler: ..




does that make any sense ?

imo, desmond has been subjected to spin foam, just like jacob.

but I think, it wasnt jacob who changed his past, erasing him from his timeline..

it was his bad twin who attempted to do it.

it was smokey.
__________________



Last edited by yung23; 12-28-07 at 08:43 PM.
yung23 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 12-28-07, 10:08 PM   #10
Jane
Has to go back
Sees Walt
 
Jane's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The Other Side
Posts: 7,210
Re: Redemption

Quote:
Originally Posted by yung23 View Post
maybe you two can help me out a bit..

thinking of time travel in relation to looping...

how would you take another path through time, ending up back where you started?
looping would seem to be invariant, it shouldn't change if its still looping in the same circle..
Good point, yung. As far as the pre-Island events are concerned, I think the Roadmap analogy is in play and might be easier to understand for the general audience than the "ring foam" analogy.

You can take more than one road from LA (FB Event) to San Francisco (the Island). You can loop back from SF to LA in space and time, and just so long as you actually return to San Francisco on time in subsequent iterations, regardless of path, you are golden.

It's the *destination* that's important - hence the "Predestination Paradox".

In the case of the Losties, they can change their pasts just so long as the changes they make don't prevent them from getting on 815. The decisions made in Australia, therefore, are much more crucial than a decision made twenty years ago, though all decisions have their consequences and "butterfly effects." The further in the past a decision is changed, the more opportunity the Universe has to "course correct" the Lostie back to Australia and onto 815.

As I said, I think this applies to the FBs, not to on-Island looping. That's a completely different beast.

How are the Losties changing their pasts? Check out the next post.
Jane is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply
« MyMedia-Forum.com > Television > Other TV > LOST > LOST Theories »


Bookmarks

Tags
t+s/science/general, t+s/time travel

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


» Latest Posts: All Discussion Forums
Title, Username, & Date Last Post Replies Forum
The Walking Dead S08E08 - "How It's...
nsguy
Today 05:28 AM
by FrodoFraggins
3 The Walking Dead
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D - SEASON 5 ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
ZIA
Today 03:28 AM
by vonnegut
663 Featured TV General
What's New/Splunking, Soldiers, + the... ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
catnap
Today 12:11 AM
by catnap
9,575 Lostaways! :)
What are you reading? ( 1 2 3... Last Page)
feigenbaum
Yesterday 10:13 AM
by Mr Mo
4,274 Literature General Discussion
» Online Users: 224
3 members and 221 guests
FrodoFraggins, NeillT006, ollie
Most users ever online was 26,316, 05-12-14 at 11:02 AM.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.0

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:20 AM.

Graphic Design by Crazy Creative
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.