[jaystao]

O.k I'm putting this up as an official theory or prediction about upcoming events in LOST - which means its up for the chopping board later on. It's actually been stated in several ways before this (particularly Bigmouths ideas about Magnus Hanso, Bob's Lost as Ghost story thread and recently Draino's locke as reincarnation thread) and I'll try and find where it correlates with other theories.

Basically the Black Rock was a major mystery of the first season, and it is the first season that concerns much of these major mysteries (the whispers, the hatch, the numbers, the monster etc). Initially I thought after S1 that the black rock's history would somply be referenced in a back story type fashion where we simply see back in time to the events where the ship appears. However with the advent of characters with a very long memory I thought it might even appear in a flash back (ie Richard).

However I've always thought that the black rock story line required more of a connection to the castaways in a very real 'now' sense (or else why would we even care). Not merely the events that we see in the present but to the very characters who we have come to know. For awhile I've harboured a feeling that Locke had a connection to the black rock ever since S1 where he said information about it that was far from guess work (though now I feel he may have been lieing about that information), the argument stands that he knew stuff about it because he had a very old affiliation with the island and specifically with the black rock.

From Bob's Ghost story thread:

Spoiler: Inherited memory

Inherited memory: Charles Ward continually feels that the mansion is familiar – he knows where passages lead and some how guesses correct information. John Locke equally projects the same mystery, in regards to his unexplained connection and guesses toward the islands nature. The most signifying moment for me was when in the Season One finale John Locke is in the Black Rock with Kate and Jack and when discovering a chained skeleton he immediately guesses the ships location and history (a slave ship taking cargo of the coast of Mozambique) even though this would place the ship on the other side of the world and doesn’t match with the history of the Pacific (Black Birds were Portuguese slave ships that raided lone Pacific Islands and relocated captives to the mines and plantations of South America). Locke’s guess (if indeed it is correct) suggests that he has a connection to the black rock and the ‘events’ that took place there – an inherited memory that might also suggest that Locke is being ‘possessed’ with ghostly memories of the past just as Dr Weir and Jack Torrent are both reliving ‘past’ events and finding themselves completely at home in their isolated environs.

Eldar Gods: The mystery of Lovecraft was mostly found in the existence of an ancient race of ‘god beings’ simply referred to as the Eldar Gods. Yog-Sagoth and Cthulhu all stem from this Eldar stock. These evil beings are often at the heart of the ‘sinister’ activities that occur in his books as they exist partly in an ‘otherly realm’ and though extinct in our own world can be ‘resurrected’ with the appropriate incantations. Indeed (like the spawn of monsters and half gods descended from the Gods in Greek mythology) their off spring still lurk in the world. Most of the ‘erotically’ charged and racial ‘horror’ of Lovecrafts work can be found with the interbreeding of the Eldar Gods with human stock. A hall mark of ‘evolution’ horror this often gives supernatural powers to it’s dark ‘children’. Telepathy, dream sending, reading the future and telekinesis being just part of the mythology. In LOST many people denote special abilities (just as Danny in the shining has extra sensory powers he has inherited – which Dick Hollaran, himself ‘special’ calls ‘the shining’). Walt of coarse is the prime example as a ‘Danny’ template, but Hurley, Kate, Jack, Ben, Desmond, Clair all display ‘special abilities’. The powers that are given to Dr Weir by the ‘denizons of the dark place’ are also prevalent as a Locke template. In the Haunted Palace Corwen has long been experimenting with interbreeding and the ‘blood line’ (which pays some ode to vampiric and warewolf stock) is often brought up within the Islands strange mythology (Micheal’s blood is tested, Richards research company and Bens experiments in pregnancy on the island are all templates to ‘genetic experimentation’ and efforts to secure a blood line perhaps).



Possession: Before the ‘incident’, before coming across the location the protagonists are relatively normal. They have personalities and often display moral inclinations that may object to their behaviour after the hostile environs is introduced. However once they become involved with ‘the haunting’ so to speak their general behaviour changes dramatically. Both Jack Torrent, Dr Weir and Ward all became obsessed with certain mysterious within the ‘familiar place’ (though both Weir and Torrent both displayed pathological weaknesses that estranged them with their families and is brought to the fore in their haunting). Often this is a possession that is instigated to the introduction of a sinister element. In The haunted Palace it was a direct possession instigated by a haunted painting (with similar overtones to the portrait of Vego in Ghostbusters II) and is a psychological paranormal phenomenon where the energies of a foci or haunted item/place inspire a pathological change in its protagonists – they are possessed in a sense by the past and often this is due to the fact that the protagonist themselves are the past reborn either by way of spiritual reincarnated or an inherited gene. In the movie ‘the Haunting’ with similar overtones to ‘the shining’ the character of Eleanor is chosen by the house because it resonates some form of past association. Mina in Bram Strokars Dracula (the movie by Coppola that is) is also a seemingly reincarnated form of Dracules past love, as is Helen in the Candyman and there are countless examples of this ‘rein acted’ play of association found in gothic horror and modern interpretations. In LOST we have a symphony of lines that constantly reoccur in our protagonists. “Don’t tell me what I can’t do” being the most infamous. Almost as if our losties are mere characters in a theatre of tragedy, continually played out like a series of numbers re-iterating again and again.

Several other reasons for why I think that Locke has a connection to the black rock are also found in some of the comments he's made particularly if he were the 'captain' or second in command even.

So here then is the theory: From Bob's Ghost story thread

I agree and in some ways we've seen displacement of people on the island but with the advent of the 'temple' it seems to me that there has always been at some point a contingent of OTHERS on the island. If some of these groups have passed on, I think that they have continued as the 'same' group because they are representatives of a greater narrative/entity, i.e. 'the island'. Remember that the shining was a ghost story because of all the death that had surrounded the area, but I think that as has been suggested with the 'locale' as a 'genius loci', the haunting occurs mainly because the 'area' itself is in someway both dangerous and special. The 'others' rather are a product of the same effect that creates 'the monster'. Even if all of them were to die people who came after would basically 're-create' the same social order because the 'others' themselves are an entity. Patterns keep repeating on the island.
...................

I've suddenly got an idea that I've formed recently. And that is this - the idea of possession seems to still be strong undercurrent - my idea is that this idea of 'haunting' also requires a medium level of reincarnation, where a genetic descendant or prodigy is required. And time travel too perhaps. However the idea of MIB seems to be more 'specific', a person who can be expressed as a 'who' as opposed to a what. Smokey doesn't quite fit this bill. My belief rather is that the events in the black rock are specifically tied to the events that we are seeing now.

That is that specifically the reincarnation and initial 'possession' by some entity occurred here at this time. From some evidence of past dialogue I have a hunch about the entity possessing John Locke. That is this - The entity has a relationship with the captain of the Black Rock who is the distant relative of John Locke. Richard was on board the black rock as a slave, prisoner what have you (just as Kate was a prisoner on the plane) - events are repeating themselves, patterns emerge with each passing. A coffin was on board the ship also perhaps. A ship mate who was also a drug user.

Here’s the most important piece, so to were some of the castaways. Possibly exact in terms of who they are now physically (so the same actors can play them perhaps) but their original souls are now in the form of their present incarnations.

AND this is where it gets interesting - I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a prediction (probably wrong). WE ALL EVERYBODY. In Season four we have Sayid in Hurley's house and he is found by his mother. She calls him a 'Pakistani' when we know he is an Iraqi - she simply probably can't tell the difference. And it's funny because the actor who plays Sayid is in fact a British raised Indian. However when Sayid gets up from his death bed in the recent episode he says "wha happened" and he sounds British and seems to recognize Jack. My suggestion here is that maybe Sayid will be 'possessed' by one of the souls from the original black rock, which Sayid himself is a reincarnated incarnation off. As perhaps are all of the 'six' who were on Jacobs list. Indeed that there maybe even a form of 'flashing' going on here, where events and people from the black rock are 'flashing' with themselves from the current period. That would be typical LOST weirdness.

Now why was Locke the 'captain' of the black rock? Just a gut feeling in regards to his relationship with Richard. I think the captain somehow 'merged' with the monster and had to be killed. His body was buried somewhere on the island and a protective circle placed around it so that it couldn't return as Jacob did when he died and also so that he couldn't interact with the monster entity. When a 'house' was built in this circle the 'captain' came to haunt it just as the Jacob ghost can interact with the island. He can move the house as a 'ghost' a physical body almost that is possessed but he can't move his body.

MIB is one incarnation of the 'monster' but so to is 'the captain', who may have been a military man. The thing is is that the 'captain' had a son. Who had descendants. John Locke wasn't remembering his future in regards to the monster, he was remembering his distant past as an inherited memory from long ago.

Pretty out there I know. And I don't think the Sayid theory will go down well. But I'm interested to see if this 'possessive'/reincarnation nature will unfold because I'm sure there’s is a grain of truth in it. That is why Richard knew of those trapped in the past. He wasn't talking about them from the 1970's, he was talking about knowing them from his experiences with the 'black rock'. Where he watched all of them die.

Trees are another form of re-incarnation on the island. The monster rips trees out all the time, gardening the 'weeds' so to speak. Certain trees are 'taboo' however (as Eko says he likes certain trees when forming a church). It maybe that the souls of the past have a relationship with the trees of the island which form a vassal where souls can reside. Animals too even.

Not to bad even if it proves untrue.

(edit: Actually rewatching the scene where Sun asks Richard about seeing her people in 1977 and Richard says "Yes, I remember these people. I clearly remember meeting each one of them..... because I watched them all die".

But I'm not entirely sure now. Because he may simply be lieing about it - aware in some way that he does not 'trust' John Locke and knows something of what occured back then. Richard simply doens't want to give out information (plus we don't know what happened after the explosion). I'm undecided about it at anyrate but I still like the idea of the 'black rock' theme. )

So the theory states that:
* Locke has a connection to the black rock as a form of reincarnation.
* Smoking Locke has a connection to the black rock because he was actually there, and it is here that he may have even been imprisoned.
* The castaways have a connection because some of them maybe reincarnated from the original black rock incident.
* The crew of the black rock did something, did something BAD (maybe to the others) that they have to pay for in their later lives.

One possible speculation is that Sayid might be inhabited by a spirit from this original incident - or a form of his reincarnated past life. This for me is the thrilling part because its a long shot bet that may pay off this episode and I look foward to seeing it fail. Almost like buying a lotto ticket.

From Law on lost thread:

Ha, ha! Locke did just that, he locked up his father in the brig of a ship. Does that therein cause him to become its 'master and commander' - if he is the sole participant in the ships use. Interesting.

Locke took A.C to the black rock because it is there he felt his juristiction would be best conducted. His affiliation with explosives and dynamite arises from his use of these in the black rock.

Locke is three seperate entities (several even): Monster/smokey (MIB), Smoking Locke (captain for now), Locke, and Riencarnated past locke (captain for now).

So the real question is WHO ARE THE CASTAWAYS OF THE BLACK ROCK?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Inserting dialogue between MIB and Jacob from season 5:

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Morning.

JACOB: Mornin'.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Mind if join you?

JACOB: Please.

[The new arrival circles in front of Jacob and takes a seat a few feet away.]

JACOB: Want some fish?

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Thank you. I just ate.

JACOB: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I am.

[The two men sitting at the beach continue gazing at the Black Rock.]

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: How'd they find the Island?

JACOB: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I don't have to ask. (looks over to Jacob) You brought them here.

[Jacob sets the leaf he'd been eating from aside and the other man looks back out to sea.]

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

JACOB: You are wrong.

[The view switches back and forth between the ship on the horizon and the two men on the beach as the conversation progresses.]

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Am I? They come... fight... they destroy... (looks at Jacob) they corrupt. It always ends the same. (looks back to sea)

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that... is just progress.

[The unidentified man looks intently at Jacob, who returns his stare.]

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?

JACOB: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

JACOB: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

[The unidentified man breaks the eye-lock first; looking again out at the Black Rock.]

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.

JACOB: Nice talking to you too.

[jaystao]

I don't trust that whole cow boy scene. In fact it made me doubt some of what's here because it was too direct in it's connotation - but yea I'll try and get a transcript.

MIB is obviously the incantation of some melavent entity on the Island, I think that time will tell what 'guises' he has put on as 'trickster'.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

OK, I know you don't like the "cowboy scene" but I think the point that they have played out this scenerio of Jacob bringing people to the island and that it always is the same is important when you ask: "So the real question is WHO ARE THE CASTAWAYS OF THE BLACK ROCK? "

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Am I? They come... fight... they destroy... (looks at Jacob) they corrupt. It always ends the same. (looks back to sea)

[jaystao]

Thanks SHBL's for the transcript. There's alot of subtext here. It's hard to place MIB because we know virtually nothing about him except that he maybe Smokey and he has a relationship with Jacob where he wants to kill him. He doesn't believe in the 'progress' that Jacob believes in.

I didn't say I did not like, I loved it actually, but I just don't trust it.

Are you suggesting that he is talking about something in the past, but rather he might be talking about something that has happened in the future and he is remembering it? That's a strong possibility if indeed Smokey and others are 'temperol' time shifters.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I just think the MIB/smokey has just seen Jacob recruit people to the island over and over again playing out the exact same scenario. And everytime a version of the same narrative plays out. MIB is tired of it. Black Rock is one version. Daniel was another. Flight 815 another.

Look at Claire. She's playing Rousseau's role.

[jaystao]

A repeating narrative, like the numbers. The same set of events put on a loop. Like a repeating record untill someone breaks the pattern.

And possibly it was the french lady who was the 'infected' one. But with no guiding force (she was set up against the 'others' from the start mind you, 'two' sides - one light, one dark).

HA HA! So much for Sayid and his talking like 'jack wild'. Do I owe anyone money? I don't think I put anything down but it's quite fun to see where the cards fall. I'm ready for another one. Though maybe this reincarnated theory might need a rest.

[jaystao]

I don't trust that whole cow boy scene. In fact it made me doubt some of what's here because it was too direct in it's connotation - but yea I'll try and get a transcript.

LOL. Bout the only thing that was right about this theory. So what the 'hell' was that ship MIB and Jacob were watching from the shore?

I was disapointed that the Black Rock was just a vehicle to deliver Albert to the island and that it seems that the 'crew' were all killed - but what happened to Magnus Hanso for istance - maybe he did end up making a deal with the devil and indeed he is ancestor we're looking for. We got Witmor associated as a possible ancestor for Whidmor. Why didn't Jacob know that Albert had survived? Or was he just playing him from the beginning.

Oh well, send this thread to hell for now. SHBL's said it right.

[mr_defleur]

Jacob has gone to a lot of trouble to bring the Black Rock to the island & has antagonised his enemy in the process. So you would assume that it's important to him.

So what happens when the Black Rock is finally on the island?
Jacob does nothing. Smokie kills everyone except Richard, & then sends Richard to kill Jacob.
Jacob's reaction to Richard: "Who are you?"

Something doesn't add up.

[hurleygurley]

Jacob did do something, Jacob is the Dark Entity. MiB caused the storm and made the Black Rock land in his territory. Jacob, in the form of the Smoke Monster, took out as many people outside of the ship as he could then when he heard voices in the belly of the ship he incorporated the body of the Captain and killed nearly all of them. The one person he couldn't kill was Richard who was under the protection of Isabella's necklace. MiB is then able to talk to Richard and ask him to try and kill Jacob. It is highly possible that someone on the Black Rock washed overboard during the storm and ended up on Jacob's side of the Island. That someone could have been the first mate and Jacob incorporated his body and left the Island, via the donkey wheel, and started recruiting other people to the Island again.

Widmore found the First Mate's log and now he has come to the Island in order to rebind the elements of Jacob before he can leave the Island.